Propeller II update - BLOG

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  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-01 - 14:40:18
    Hi Chip.

    I have my name on PCB - Right up corner - that is good for me.

    As I said to Ken - How Parallax distribute / market this board are Parallax that decide -- I'm happy for that to have one + some parts on my hands (Have talk with Ken on e-mail on that) and that You made Config file to it that use all resources
    (but some question -- why You run on DE0-Nano only 60MHz -- It has Alteras Fastest FPGA ( C5 ) that probably can run 100MHz)

    In some days I will post part list to most important parts -- All parts I used are Hand-solderable -- DAC resistors are 0805-footprint, Phono Jack are Yours part number.
    all other parts are same Bill Henning use on his products.

    I made this board that it can be used both as Propeller 2 emulator and as experimenters board to DE0-NANO board --

    As Martin Hodge on another thread said "Get a DE0 and explore the universe of FPGA's t'boot! It's a magical land! "



    For me this PCB are simplest possible for DE0-Nano -- My own Experimenters board to DE0-Nano that I work on I can say are Advanced (Picture attached)
    It have Nano + Propeller I + 7'' -TFT-LCD on other side


    cgracey wrote: »
    Sapieha,

    We will probably sell your boards at cost to whoever wants one, and then give some away.

    You should put your name on it, by the way, since you designed it.

    It would probably good if you made a Digi-Key parts list so that people could easily order all the parts that they'll need for it.

    Our little DE0-Nano board is much simpler and will be sold assembled. At least, that's how I see things shaping up.
    1024 x 694 - 175K
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,545
    edited 2012-12-02 - 17:22:09
    Chip or Beau:

    What is the P2 pin pitch please?

    Is there a center ground pad? If so, must it be grounded?
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2 , RamBlade , CpuBlade , TriBlade
    P1 Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    P1: Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
    P2: Tools & Code , Tricks & Traps
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 11,940
    edited 2012-12-02 - 20:32:19
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Chip or Beau:

    What is the P2 pin pitch please?

    Is there a center ground pad? If so, must it be grounded?

    The pin pitch is 0.4mm. There is no center pad.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 8,787
    edited 2012-12-02 - 20:38:59
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Chip or Beau:

    What is the P2 pin pitch please?

    Is there a center ground pad? If so, must it be grounded?
    I have a Protel footprint I created for my pcbs if you want a copy of that. The pads are slightly extended to improve hand soldering etc.

    Tachyon Forth - compact, fast, forthwright and interactive
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  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,545
    edited 2012-12-02 - 22:48:02
    Thanks Chip. Wow 0.4mm is going to take some steady hands soldering! (think I said this before).

    No thanks Peter - it is easy enough to do - think I am going to extend a littler further than I normally do for this pitch.
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2 , RamBlade , CpuBlade , TriBlade
    P1 Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    P1: Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
    P2: Tools & Code , Tricks & Traps
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2012-12-02 - 23:14:33
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Thanks Chip. Wow 0.4mm is going to take some steady hands soldering! (think I said this before).

    So far I've reflow soldered about 8 boards with a .4mm chip (28pin+EP), and have had 100% success. The main issues that I've come across so far is 1) high current traces (1 amp) have to narrow down to get close enough to the chip, and 2) the 3mil mylar stencils (from Pololu) don't work very well with the fine pitch: the solder doesn't go through that well, and it has to be manually applied.

    edit: changed 3mm to 3mil
  • TrapperBobTrapperBob Posts: 129
    edited 2012-12-03 - 03:54:10
    I for one would like to record my interest in purchasing two of the PCBs that Sapieha has designed for the DE0 nano emulation .

    Thanks
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,700
    edited 2012-12-03 - 04:43:22
    Is there an approximate time frame for P2 chip availability? Say maybe 3 to 6 months, 6 to 9 months...

    I'd just like to have some idea as part of deciding if going the FPGA route makes sense to get up to speed.

    I'd hate to drop $600 dollars and then have the actual chips become available just a month or two later.

    C.W.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-12-03 - 05:53:21
    SETINDA anomaly!

    SETINDA is used with two operands according to the Propeller 2 Detailed Preliminary Feature List v2.0:

    Setup indirection register address A bottom range and top range where D is the top of the range and S is the bottom range. The indirection register will allow access to cog registers in this range.

    However, when it has been used, as in David Betz's serial routines, it only has one operand:

    setinda reserves

    Has it changed?
    Leon Heller
    G1HSM
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 13,592
    edited 2012-12-03 - 06:30:11
    Leon wrote: »
    SETINDA anomaly!

    SETINDA is used with two operands according to the Propeller 2 Detailed Preliminary Feature List v2.0:

    Setup indirection register address A bottom range and top range where D is the top of the range and S is the bottom range. The indirection register will allow access to cog registers in this range.

    However, when it has been used, as in David Betz's serial routines, it only has one operand:

    setinda reserves

    Has it changed?
    Just to be clear, I didn't write the serial routines. They are taken from Chip's ROM monitor.
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 2,681
    edited 2012-12-03 - 13:03:18
    There are 6 instructions for the index registers now: SETINDA, SETINDB, SETINDS, FIXINDA, FIXINDB, and FIXINDS. So things are different from when that doc was written. I'm not sure about what they all do sorry. I just know the names of the instructions right now.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 22,474
    edited 2012-12-03 - 13:23:38
    SRLM wrote:
    the 3mm mylar stencils (from Pololu) don't work very well with the fine pitch: the solder doesn't go through that well, and it has to be manually applied.
    Have you tried laying out the pastemask for each row of leads as one big rectangle, instead of individual pads? I would expect surface tension to be your friend here. (You'd have to do the same with the soldermask, but you probably already do that, since board fabs don't like thin webs in the soldermask.) In order to keep the total amount of solder to the correct value, the pastemask rectangle can be made thinner than the pad height.

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2012-12-03 - 13:36:43
    @Phil

    No, I haven't tried a long rectangle: I've only made one so far. Another issue that I see with that approach would be the exposed pad in the center. I'm not sure if having long rectangle cutouts for the pins along with a big cutout (or even several smaller cutouts) for the EP will make the mask too weak and flexible.

    When I'm done with my current mask, I'll try using an exacto knife to cutout the rectangles and see what happens.

    For reference, here is the 28+EP footprint: http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/package_dwgs/21-0139.PDF
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-03 - 13:54:40
    Hi SRLM.

    Dont made one BIG rectangle --> that will give you problems.

    Usually for that pads -- Uses 4 smaller rectangles in solder mask
    Else IC will flow with re-flow


    SRLM wrote: »
    @Phil

    No, I haven't tried a long rectangle: I've only made one so far. Another issue that I see with that approach would be the exposed pad in the center. I'm not sure if having long rectangle cutouts for the pins along with a big cutout (or even several smaller cutouts) for the EP will make the mask too weak and flexible.

    When I'm done with my current mask, I'll try using an exacto knife to cutout the rectangles and see what happens.

    For reference, here is the 28+EP footprint: http://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/package_dwgs/21-0139.PDF
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-12-03 - 14:12:34
    I thought that technique was used with the large pads on the underside of some chips, which the P2 doesn't have.
    Leon Heller
    G1HSM
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 22,474
    edited 2012-12-03 - 16:31:55
    I think Sapieha misunderstood what I meant by a "big" rectangle. Obviously, you don't want solder under the chip itself. But a stripe of solder paste through each row of pads should work just fine. When I paste pads with a syringe, I will lay one thin bead through a row of closely-spaced pads. Assuming I don't deposit too much solder, the surface tension will suck it into the pad area as it melts in the toaster oven. If I do deposit too much solder, the resulting bridges are easily cleaned up with solder wick. But this should not be a problem with a correctly-sized mask aperture.

    -Phil
    “Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away. -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 8,787
    edited 2012-12-03 - 16:59:43
    I think Sapieha misunderstood what I meant by a "big" rectangle. Obviously, you don't want solder under the chip itself. But a stripe of solder paste through each row of pads should work just fine. When I paste pads with a syringe, I will lay one thin bead through a row of closely-spaced pads. Assuming I don't deposit too much solder, the surface tension will suck it into the pad area as it melts in the toaster oven. If I do deposit too much solder, the resulting bridges are easily cleaned up with solder wick. But this should not be a problem with a correctly-sized mask aperture.

    -Phil
    That's the usual technique but those bridges can remain because solder may not reflow as well on power pads and other pads that have a larger thermal mass. If this technique is used then the trick is to design the pcb in the first place with some (or more) decoupling of the thermal mass from each pad and also to make sure that the oven reaches a high enough temperature for long enough to allow these pads to reflow. The other little trick is to give them a helping hand by dispensing flux alongside the solder as this aids in the reflow. In fact I have pcbs where the SD socket is the only component on the underside of the pcb and instead of another round in the oven I have found it better to apply flux to the pads and then hand solder the socket on. Anyway, it works for me.

    Tachyon Forth - compact, fast, forthwright and interactive
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  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-03 - 17:01:15
    Hi Phil

    I understood You ---- But if You look on link SRLM have in this post -- He talk on centre-pad of that IC
    That need solder but not on entire pad. but that that I described.
    I think Sapieha misunderstood what I meant by a "big" rectangle. Obviously, you don't want solder under the chip itself. But a stripe of solder paste through each row of pads should work just fine. When I paste pads with a syringe, I will lay one thin bead through a row of closely-spaced pads. Assuming I don't deposit too much solder, the surface tension will suck it into the pad area as it melts in the toaster oven. If I do deposit too much solder, the resulting bridges are easily cleaned up with solder wick. But this should not be a problem with a correctly-sized mask aperture.

    -Phil
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,018
    edited 2012-12-03 - 17:16:11
    P2 does not have a center-solder-pad on the bottom.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-12-04 - 00:54:56
    Chip has clarified things here:

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?144199-Propeller-II-Emulation-of-the-P2-on-DE0-NANO-amp-DE2-115-FPGA-boards&p=1147090&viewfull=1#post1147090

    I originally mentioned the problem there, but didn't get a response, so posted it here.
    Leon Heller
    G1HSM
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-04 - 13:22:54
    Hi ALL.

    In attachment's I post 2 3D pictures that will help with mounting Propeller II Emulator PCB
    And PDF with Schematics.

    Will post Bill Of Materials as fast I'm clear with it ----> In same post

    Link to clear PCB http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/145063-Sapeiha-s-Propeller-2-Base-Boards-DEO-Nano-Single-Cog-Emulator
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 11,940
    edited 2012-12-04 - 15:01:41
    Sapieha wrote: »
    Hi ALL.

    In attachment's I post 2 3D pictures that will help with mounting Propeller II Emulator PCB
    And PDF with Schematics.

    Will post Bill Of Materials as fast I'm clear with it ----> In same post

    Looks good. What layout program did you use to make that in?
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 15,545
    edited 2012-12-04 - 15:26:46
    Sapieha: I must get into doing some 3D pics of my boards. What program are you using and is it hard to learn/use?
    My Prop boards: P8XBlade2 , RamBlade , CpuBlade , TriBlade
    P1 Prop OS (also see Sphinx, PropDos, PropCmd, Spinix)
    Website: www.clusos.com
    P1: Tools (Index) , Emulators (Index) , ZiCog (Z80)
    P2: Tools & Code , Tricks & Traps
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-04 - 15:27:01
    Hi Chip.

    I use Proteus - ISIS-sch, ARES-layout

    I posted Design file's to Ken -- As I said DESIGN is Yours I only made some improvement and Layout -- and it is no way to break my integrity to give that to any other people.

    Thanks for acceptance of my work.

    cgracey wrote: »
    Looks good. What layout program did you use to make that in?
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-04 - 15:30:01
    Hi Cluso.

    Look on answer to Chip.

    It is very simple to learn/use --- As You entirely work in wysi-wyg mode
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    Sapieha: I must get into doing some 3D pics of my boards. What program are you using and is it hard to learn/use?
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-04 - 16:39:10
    Regards
    Sapieha
    _____________________________________________________
    Nothing is impossible, there are only different degrees of difficulty.
    For every stupid question there is at least one intelligent answer.
    Don't guess - ask instead.
    If you don't ask you won't know.
    If your gonna construct something, make it as simple as possible yet as versatile/usable as possible.
  • SeairthSeairth Posts: 2,392
    edited 2012-12-05 - 12:47:35
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?144384-p2load-A-Loader-for-the-Propeller-II&p=1147676&viewfull=1#post1147676

    Chip, the referenced post is a suggestion I made for the HMAC/SHA-256 engine. I'm just going to leave the original post there to avoid duplication.
  • SeairthSeairth Posts: 2,392
    edited 2012-12-05 - 16:56:51
    Do RDBYTE, RDWORD, RDLONG implcitly perform a RDQUAD? If not, does that mean that the only way to ensure that the QUAD registers are fresh is to perform a RDQUAD (or the RDxxxxC calls that are outside the current QUAD read index)?
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 2,681
    edited 2012-12-05 - 18:23:36
    From Chip's docs on the RD/WRXXXXX instructions (first line):
    All instructions use D as the data conduit, except WRQUAD/RDQUAD/RDQUADC, which uses the four QUAD registers.

    My understanding of the docs:
    The RDXXXXC instructions cause a RDQUAD to occur when needed, the RDBYTE/RDWORD/RDLONG instruction do not. The other way to write to the QUAD registers is to map them with SETQUAD and then write to the mapped locations.
  • SeairthSeairth Posts: 2,392
    edited 2012-12-05 - 18:34:10
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    The RDXXXXC instructions cause a RDQUAD to occur when needed, the RDBYTE/RDWORD/RDLONG instruction do not.

    So if one cog writes to hub memory that matches the cached QUADs of another cog, does a RDxxxxC automatically detect this and reload the cache?
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