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ARLISS Team NH

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  • Obie WanObie Wan Posts: 46
    edited 2011-01-20 15:36
    Well a Faraday shield/cage is effectively a conductive wire mesh that blocks external electromagnetic waves from entering a area, in this case the area of the ASP. The waves blocked depend on how big the spaces would be between the mesh. Basically, the larger the wave on the electromagnetic spectrum, the more likely it would be blocked. So the two transmitters on the rover would be communicating with the GPS satellites but the satellites might not be able to communicate back and the rover would be lost. From what I've just found the wavelength used by the GPS is 19.05 cm so the metal shield may not work. If it did work then the benifits of a metal shield would be that the equipment on the ASP is protected so it would be more likely to survive. The shield, if formed in the right shape may also help the rover land on the right side up. The problems, for starters forming a Faraday shield and the ASP being unable to communicate. Another is that it might make the electronics too hot under the sun and may melt. If the ASP is enclosed it may not be able to gather the data we wanted. One question though, would the Faraday shield work both ways and the internal transmitters be unable to communicate outside as well?

    And Jake, I agree there will be some friction but I don't think enough to burn sheet metal or the rover might be destroyed as well.

    Mr. Kibler, where would this free download of BASIC be on this site?

    Thanks
    Obie
  • Jake GoldsberryJake Goldsberry Posts: 85
    edited 2011-01-20 16:38
    Obie-
    Wow! you've done your research! It's interesting, I didn't think about the communication devices. And you're right, i doubt that there will be enough friction, but stranger things have happened!
    Andrew-
    How is the GPS coming? I'd LOVE to help!
    Mr. Kibler-
    i also couldn't seem to find the free download of BASIC on the site? Am I overlooking something?
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-20 17:27
    Obie,

    You are spot-on with your assessment of the potential pros and cons of using a Faraday Shield: it might block transmission to, or from our shortwave transmitter-locator. But it would also protect the circuitry and maybe help the robot land upright. Good work (but doubtful it would get hot enough on "re-entry" to melt the metal.)

    We're doing an engineering design project in class right now. Students are building actual heat shields to protect a space capsule model from a very real (and HOT!!) propane torch. The torch simulates the heat of re-entry but the ASP-robot won't be traveling THAT fast (at least I hope not...)


    Here's where and how you access the Parallax program software we'll be using:

    1) Go to www.parallax.com

    2) Click on 'Downloads' (top, right-hand side)

    3) Cick on "Basic Stamp Software" near the center of the screen (BASIC is a computer program language. PBASIC is 'Parallax Basic'.)

    4) Go to 'Software for Windows' (or Mac) near the center of the screen.

    5) Download 'Basic Stamp Editor' - *Be sure the version you download matches the operating system you're using (Windows Vista? Windows XP? etc.)

    6) Go to "our" forum, page 43. Download the program I posted, "ASP-2 - LAUNCH READY - September 4, 2010.bse". This is the program that currently runs rhe ASP-2. There are many, many, MANY more programs on the Parallax website you can download, from very easy to utterly incomprehsible (to me anyway.)

    ALL ROCKETEERS,

    Please let your teammates know here on the forum when you've downloaded the software and opened the program, "ASP-2 - LAUNCH READY - September 4, 2010.bse" Then start asking questions!

    Good work team, :thumb:

    Mr. Kibler

    :cool:
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-20 17:40
    Mr. Kibler-

    An 'Atla' reflectance spectrometer is a device uses light (including infared) to collect data. Am i wrong to say that we would be able to interpret what the soil is made up of?

    -Jake-

    Jake,

    That's correct. A spectrometer can help scientists figure out what different materials are made of. Different materials (just like your heat shield materials) reflect different wavelengths of light. The Alta Reflectance Spectrometer measures the different wavelengths of light and you can use this to tell different materials apart, even figure out what they're made of if you have "reference wavelengths."

    Good question and good work! Will we have school tomorrow...?! How much SNOW is coming?

    Mr. Kibler
    :cool:
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-20 17:52

    Obie-

    Wow! you've done your research!

    Jake

    Recall what I'm looking for in new team members: "Interest, Initiative, Leadership, Aptitude, Attitude, and 100% Commitment." Which of these does Obie's research and answer demonstrate?

    Mr. Kibler
  • Andrew (ARLISS)Andrew (ARLISS) Posts: 213
    edited 2011-01-20 18:20
    Obie-
    Wow! you've done your research! It's interesting, I didn't think about the communication devices. And you're right, i doubt that there will be enough friction, but stranger things have happened!
    Andrew-
    How is the GPS coming? I'd LOVE to help!
    Mr. Kibler-
    i also couldn't seem to find the free download of BASIC on the site? Am I overlooking something?

    Jake,

    I just finished transferring the GPS circuitry to the BOE that Mr. Kibler lent me. The reasoning behind this is that I wish to take advantage of the larger EEPROM (memory) that the BS2E has to offer. The homework boards only have a non-interchangeable BS2 Stamp.

    I've already started to try to use the GPS data for basic movement instructions, although I'm curious to what you have for ideas on the subject -- specifically, how to approach the programming aspect of it.

    Awaiting your thoughts,
    Andrew
  • Obie WanObie Wan Posts: 46
    edited 2011-01-20 18:24
    Thanks Jake and Mr. Kibler.
    I had another thought just now. There is a possibility of the parachute tangling with the rover, but we might be able to apply something over the edges of the rover, maybe some sort of puddy or something.In this way the edges would be more rounded and therefore less likely to get caught on. That's about it for now.

    Obie
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-20 18:25
    ...

    What does EEPROM stand for, just so that everyone understands the language we're using.

    Also, I ordered 5 more RTC chips and 5 of the resonator (?) crystals that go on top. Hope Mrs. K. doesn't see the credit card bill...! Hopefully I can get us a couple more BOE serial boards so we have enough. You're right: the HwB's (homework boards) have their limitations.

    :cool:
  • Jake GoldsberryJake Goldsberry Posts: 85
    edited 2011-01-20 18:28
    Mr. Kibler-
    Obie has shown interest, and initiative. Am i missing any?
    Andrew-
    I'd like to see what you have done so far. will you bring it to the next meeting? It's easiest to create ideas when the subject is directly in front of you. I'm glad to hear that you got it to be able to do basic movements. Continue the amazing work!
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-20 18:33
    Jake,

    Is there anything you want me to bring to school that would give you a jump-start on the project? Andrew, you know what supplies we have available. What you would suggest to Jake-ster? The Parallax book, "What's a Microcontroller?" for example? A HwB? Cookies?! (*Jake likes cookies.)

    Mr.Kibler
  • Dylan LandryDylan Landry Posts: 235
    edited 2011-01-20 19:09
    Project Team,
    I think my computer might somehow have a virus at the time. My personal computer at home is completely, well, "not working", and to add to this, I don't get notifications anymore on when their is a post on the forum. That is the reason causing my absence.
    Its great that everyone is thinking so outside of the box. And I don't mean to be a downer, but collecting soil samples is more complicated then it seems. Just some things to think about would be..

    --Size constraints--
    How would you collect the sample's? Would a few servos be needed? Would it just collect the sample, and hold it until we are able to acquire it? Are there weight specifications for our payload?

    --How would you sample it?--

    I like the Idea about the SHT, but how would we be able to aquire the moisture from the sample? Out of most situations I have heard about where it involves some time of soil testing, they most likely use a probe of some sort. All though there are other ways. Like NASA's new rover. I believe I saw a special on it. It is able to identify solids from a distance, by zapping it with a laser until it evaporated. Then, it compares the gas to the light spectrum to figure out what elements are contained with in it. All though I'm pretty sure this is out of our league >_< .

    I like where everyone is going with this project, how everyone is thinking WAY out of the box on this. Sampling soil, I never thought we would be doing this! It seems like an amazing feat to be able to accomplish though, something that will certainly open new doors of opportunity! And I'm sure Mr. Kibler has talked to you about opportunities, and how to really achieve as a person from them.
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 05:31
    Obie Wan wrote: »

    I had another thought just now. There is a possibility of the parachute tangling with the rover...Obie

    I think we have a few more fundamental questions to answer about the parachute:

    1) How do we keep the robot from swaying back and forth on the parachute so the it lands upright?

    (Andrew, what is a "spill hole" and why is one used? Does a spill hole always work like it's supposed to? Remember our flight at NASA? Recall where the parachute ended up, and why... Please explain this to everyone and consider attaching a picture to the forum.)

    2) How do we ensure that the parachute detaches the very instant it touches down? If it doesn't detach right away, the robot could get dragged (sideways) across the desert.

    Good morning (yawn),

    Mr Kibler

    :cool:
  • Jake GoldsberryJake Goldsberry Posts: 85
    edited 2011-01-21 06:38
    An ERPROM is a Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory of I'm not mistaken. To stop the parachute from swaying back and forth we could make a more solid "binding" like connection with the parachute and the ASP that is on a timer? I'll try to diagram this over the weekend!
    How about all the snow we've gotten this week? I'm going sledding!
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 06:51

    "ERPROM" (actually, EEPROM...") is a Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory..."

    Can you explain this in simple terms in your own words Jake?

    Have fun sledding! I have a cold; no snow for me.

    Mr. Kibler
  • Jake GoldsberryJake Goldsberry Posts: 85
    edited 2011-01-21 07:15
    I beleive it is a memory card that you can erase. And program? i'm not sure about the whole "Electrically" and "Read-Only" parts though.

    And trust me, i will have fun sledding! it's one of my favorite things to do!
    hope you get better soon!
    -Jake-
  • Emily RoseEmily Rose Posts: 53
    edited 2011-01-21 09:50
    I am downloading PBASIC right now and the program for the ASP, With the GPS programing arn't we already out of memory room? How is that coming Andrew? I think the only way to have the Parachute detach right when it touches down would have to be a times detachment. But what would that be made of? and as for keeping the rover safe, would Plexiglas block wave lengths?
    P.S. I agree with Jake cookies are awesome!

    Thank you
    Emily
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 09:59
    :nerd:

    I believe [EEPROM] is a memory card that you can erase. And program? i'm not sure about the whole "Electrically" and "Read-Only" parts though.

    -Jake-

    ROCKETEERS (Jake and everyone else):

    Let's research what EEPROM means until we really understand it and can express it in simple terms. It's not enough that we 'google' definitions and just cut and paste them. As we start designing, building, and programming it's important that we understand all the terms we're using:

    EEPROM - ???

    ASP is the Air Sample Probe, version 2. It's the round satellite in the tube that we showed everyone last Sunday.

    BOE - Board of Education, made by Parallax. It's the green circuit board that the parts are wired to.

    MAWD is the Mini Altimeter with Deployment function. It's wired to the BOE and it measures altitude. The altitude is recorded on the ASP's (Parallax) Datalogger

    ARLISS - Our project, "A Rocket Launch for International Student Satellites"

    Andrew and Dylan, what other acronyms can you add? Please explain what they mean simply so everyone understands. Everyone else, what other terms are you unclear about? It's important to ask questions.

    Thanks,

    Mr. Kibler
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 10:06
    Emily,

    Andrew said that the BS2 stamp (a detachable 12-pin memory card of sorts) does not have enough memory space to run the GPS. That's why I gave him a BOE with a BS2e stamp: it has more memory space.

    I'm not sure what you meant when you said, "I think the only way to have the Parachute detach right when it touches down would have to be a times detachment." What do you mean by a 'times detachment?'

    Did the PBASIC program download OK? Were the directions simple enough? Were you able to download and open up the ASP program?

    No school today?

    Mr. Kibler
  • Jake GoldsberryJake Goldsberry Posts: 85
    edited 2011-01-21 11:53
    The program download I think, but it wouldn't open? Like it wasn't on the harddrive. Your directions were outstanding
    though! Thanks so much and get better fast!
    And yes, no school.
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 14:00

    The program download I think, but it wouldn't open...QUOTE]


    A large part of our work as designers and engineers is to solve problems. Here is your first challenge: figure out how to download the Stamp Editor software (and the program I mentioned) and get them to work. Each of you will need this installed on your computer to stay up-to-date with the project.

    I'm sure you will figure it out (Parallax has excellent technical support! Just e-mail them or give them as call. You also have many excellent mentors and supporters here on the forum. So don't be shy about asking questions. That's why we do most of out work on the forum. Most of the folks who offer their help are much, much smarter about this than I am (Syvlie is a rocket scientist and Dr. Allen is a doctor and he has his own business.) Really, they are excellent resources. All you have to do is ask for help, then thank them when it's given.

    Let me know when you have the software and the program downloaded and working. Most of you are already there...! :thumb:

    Aim high,

    Mr. Kibler
    :cool:
  • Emily RoseEmily Rose Posts: 53
    edited 2011-01-21 14:40
    Mr. Kibler,
    Everything went spectacularly with the download and the instructions were easy to follow. Now Im just trying to read through the program. Where would I find information about Pbasic? would that be on the website? Also I meant that it would need a timed detachment mechanism. Would we be able to make our own?
    Yes, I had a snow day as well :)
    Emily
  • Emily RoseEmily Rose Posts: 53
    edited 2011-01-21 14:47
    Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory: (EPROM) A special nonvolatile memory that can be erased when exposed to strong doses of ultraviolet light. After erasing, EPROM memory can be reprogrammed. Erasing requires physically removing the device and placing it under a strong UV light for several minutes. Programming requires placing it into a special programmer unit.

    Sorce: http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/21cp/ebt/glossary.htm#E

    So In my own words I would say a memory that can store a small amount and is erased by being put under an ultraviolet light for a few minutes and then can easily be reprogrammed.

    Emily
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 15:13
    Emily Rose wrote: »


    Where would I find information about Pbasic?

    Well, there's certainly some good information about PBASIC on the Parallax website and the forum, and less specifically, on the web. Probably the best place to begin would be with the book, "What's a Microcontroller?" Ask Andrew if you can borrow one of his copies. Then remind me at the next practice and I'll give you one of your very own. To keep. For free....!

    Also I meant that it would need a timed detachment mechanism.

    I thought that was what you meant. They (whoever 'they' is) say, 'Timing is everything.' With a timed detachment event, it would have to be timed absolutely perfectly, to the fraction of a second. Otherwise the parachute would detach while the robot is above the ground (can you say "Crash!") :frown: or it would retain the parachute and risk having the robot dragged across the desert, like last year.

    Sometimes our rocket sits on the launch pad for a long time-- up to 45 minutes-- before it's launched. Other times it's launched within 10 or 15 minutes. That's a decision the LSO (Launch Safety Officer) and RCO (Range Control Officer) make. We don't get to decide when conditions are "Go"; they do. Consequently it would be virtually impossible to have a timed detachment event happen to the exact second.

    Sylvie, you launch big rockets. What are your thoughts on the timed parachute detachment idea. What fail-safe alternatives can you think of?

    Mr. Kibler

    :nerd:
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-21 15:19
    Since it's dinner time, here's some "food for thought". The first Rocketeer to answer correctly (and clearly) gets extra cookies at next Sunday's practice...!

    Emily used the term 'non-volatile memory' in her definition above:

    What is non-volatile (versus volatile) memory?

    Does the Data Logger and flash drive we have on the ASP use volatile or non-volatile memory?

    Why?


    :cool:
  • Dylan LandryDylan Landry Posts: 235
    edited 2011-01-21 21:01
    Volatile V.S. Non-Volatile Memory

    Non-Volatile memory systems have the capability of retaining memory, even when power is not currently flowing through the system. Volatile, is simply the opposite. Volatile memory systems requires there to be constant power flowing through the device for memory to be retained properly.
    I am going to leave the other question for another rocketeer to answer.

    Does that mean that we will split a cookie? O.O
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-22 05:34
    Volatile V.S. Non-Volatile Memory

    Non-Volatile memory systems have the capability of retaining memory, even when power is not currently flowing through the system. Volatile, is simply the opposite. Volatile memory systems requires there to be constant power flowing through the device for memory to be retained properly.

    Does that mean that we will split a cookie? O.O[/QUOTE]


    That depends on whether they answer the question correctly or not.... and if your answer is correct. I would like someone else to confirm it before you sink your teeth into the cookie(s)!

    Mr. Kibler
    :nerd:
    1024 x 768 - 351K
  • Andrew (ARLISS)Andrew (ARLISS) Posts: 213
    edited 2011-01-22 06:46
    :nerd:

    ROCKETEERS (Jake and everyone else):

    Let's research what EEPROM means until we really understand it and can express it in simple terms. It's not enough that we 'google' definitions and just cut and paste them. As we start designing, building, and programming it's important that we understand all the terms we're using:

    EEPROM - ???

    ASP is the Air Sample Probe, version 2. It's the round satellite in the tube that we showed everyone last Sunday.

    BOE - Board of Education, made by Parallax. It's the green circuit board that the parts are wired to.

    MAWD is the Mini Altimeter with Deployment function. It's wired to the BOE and it measures altitude. The altitude is recorded on the ASP's (Parallax) Datalogger

    ARLISS - Our project, "A Rocket Launch for International Student Satellites"

    Andrew and Dylan, what other acronyms can you add? Please explain what they mean simply so everyone understands. Everyone else, what other terms are you unclear about? It's important to ask questions.

    Thanks,

    Mr. Kibler

    Team members,

    Here are some other terms that I thought of that you may or may not know. Most of these are related more to rocketry in general, instead of some of the terms for the various electronics.

    Apogee - The highest point of flight. In other words, the ASP's apogee is when it reaches it's maximum altitude and then begins it's descent.

    CATO - Catastrophic Takeoff: I believe this is self explanatory, but considering searching YouTube for "Black Rock CATOs" for some pretty spectacular launches.

    Spill Hole: - A hole in the top of a parachute which allows air to escape from the top, and not just from the bottom. This increases stability of the parachute, and therefore creating a more controlled descent.

    These are all some really good terms being posted. Perhaps we should compile a complete list and put it in our team binders?

    Andrew
  • Ashley#2Ashley#2 Posts: 11
    edited 2011-01-22 16:53
    I agree with Dylan on Non-volatile vs. Volatile memory.
    Source: http://www.computerhope.com/jargon/n/nonvolat.htm
    Also, EEPROM is Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory. The memory is saved even when the power is off, and sections of data can be erased and replaced without needing to alter the rest of the chip's programming.
    Source: http://www.tech-faq.com/eeprom.html

    And I would love to add that I LOVE cookies too! Plus, I'm great at making them too, and have a recipe or two memorized...
    I got the BASIC Stamp software downloaded on my computer and was able to open it...
    Also, my lab top has a USB and serial port so I may be able to bring it to the meeting next week, but I have to warn you that it is pretty slow.
    ~Ashley
  • Obie WanObie Wan Posts: 46
    edited 2011-01-23 12:32
    I like the idea of a timer, but, unless I missed something, how do you know how much time it will take before the rover is on the ground and the parachute to detach?

    What other ways could you signal the parachute to detach, if there are any? (I'm sure there are)

    I have the PBASIC download done and it works, still need to get the ASP2 program though.
    In terms of Volatile electronics I would say the USB is non-volatile due to the fact that it has the data/programs saved even if there is no power applied. I believe the data logger would be volatile because it just gathers the data of humidity and temperature but doesn't store them. On the other hand though it needs computer code to gather the data so it may be non-volatile.

    Obie

    PS; cookies are amazing :)
  • Mark KiblerMark Kibler Posts: 546
    edited 2011-01-23 12:40
    Obie Wan wrote: »
    I like the idea of a timer, but, unless I missed something, how do you know how much time it will take before the rover is on the ground and the parachute to detach?

    Obie

    That's the inherent problem: there's virtually no way to calculate to the exact half-second when the payload (the robot or the ASP) will touch down. I think we should be looking at alternate methods of having the parachute detach. Time to do some research, Rocketeers...


    Our work has begun,

    "Han Solo"
    :cool:
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