@Rsadeika; My guess is that folks would be willing to shell out some substantial cash if the MIT promises are shown to have some substance. The trouble is that so far there is no evidence of this substance, even though it is said to be working on some other (unspecified) platform. If it exists, then we should be able to see it in action. Heck, even I would be tempted to buy in if I could see it doing something useful. But so far, there has been a deafening silence by MIT on this. Why would this be so?
I recall seeing some code from MIT that referred to this 'conversion' into digital format, and in the end, it was just a hash table leading to a dispatch code. Is this the 'clever' idea? I suppose anything can be hashed ...
If someone wants to write the cpld code I can make a 128mb module for $100 and split profit with programmer.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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I guess I also question even the necessity of it.· Unless the postulation is that a multi-megabyte multi-Propeller system so vastly outperforms alternative solutions - perhaps even a small salvaged pc or laptop.
And on that topic, has anyone here in this forum purchased these expansion boards?· I'd think that of those bleeding edge Prop users one or two of them must follow this forum.
A $100 bucks, that is way to greedy of a price. You can buy memory now, for what, $30 for 1GB. You have to get with the program here. Oh, did I mention it has to be "Plug&Play".
Though I would be using sdram to make cheaper and smaller imaking in small quantites(16 board panels) parts for a plug and play module are a lot more.
The real point isn't how much profit they make. I am all for making them rich if there is proof behind the wild claims.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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That 1GB is very hard to interface to, though. Are there any datasheets at all on the 1GB+ memory cards that are out today?
@Agent420: There IS a text-to-speech object that has been created by Phil Philgrim. It is quite amazing and is called "Talk". I will try to find a link.
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Rsadeika said...
A $100 bucks, that is way to greedy of a price. You can buy memory now, for what, $30 for 1GB. You have to get with the program here. Oh, did I mention it has to be "Plug&Play".
Let's see you interface that cheap dram with the Prop..
To get the performance being pontificated about you require either a high performance DRAM controller or super fast SRAM. It's not that cheap.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
I have priced the parts out a while back. Would not be a simple code. Can look into price of sram when I get back from vacation.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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As a complete newcomer to this argument I have to say.... all my attempts to find out what this actually does, how it works, or why I might use it has led to nothing. Dead links, and very broad blog posts are all I have found. I never seen it actually explained. I'll just keep watching.
@BradC, "Let's see you interface that cheap dram with the Prop.. " It's not about me, sir. I never said that I could do it. It's everybody else that keeps throwing around the "greed" term.
KISS - "keep it simple stupid".
@mctrivia, no it was not sarcasm. I guess everybody has a right to provide excuses.
Not to defend them, but some of you guys ought to do a bit of research.
The $30 1GB module is DDR2 memory - dynamic ram, and high speed specialized ram at that.
The modules are made qty. MILLIONS, and each chip on the module in those quantities costs <$1. The PCB's are practically free in those quantities, and automated assembly also costs diddly (in those quantities).
That $30 retail module was bought by your retailer for probably around $25 from a distributor, who got it for <$20 from the manufacturer.
Dr.Jim's, Mallred's, Jazzed's, Cluso's and my memory modules are made with STATIC ram, with only 512KB per chip.
In low quantities, these chips cost about $3.50 each. You need four of them for 2MB. Then you have the cost of designing the PCB's, getting test PCB's testing them, and getting a production run of PCB's. Then there is the MOQ's (minimum order quantities) for the parts you stuff the PCB's with, for the memory chips and other parts. Then you need to leave some room for markup by distributors and dealers if you are doing it as more than a hobby selling directly. Also don't forget the time spent ordering components, taking orders, kitting, answering emails, phone calls, chasing after distributors and fabs to make sure you get your parts and boards on time... courier fees... packaging fees... advertising costs... distributor and dealer margins....
If you try to use fast 2MBx8 SRAM's it gets worse - those are about $25 each, and come in TSOPII surface mount packages, thus you are pretty much forced to get them assembled with a pick and place machine and reflowed - bringing on another set of NRE's (non-recurring engineering) costs. And let's not forget the MOQ's, prototyping costs etc.
Anyone who sells a 2MB static ram module for $30 will be losing money on each sale - even if it is a kit.
When comparing prices you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples - apple to pumpkin comparisons don't work.
Rsadeika said...
A $100 bucks, that is way to greedy of a price. You can buy memory now, for what, $30 for 1GB. You have to get with the program here. Oh, did I mention it has to be "Plug&Play".
Ray
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW! www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 8/12/2009 3:21:24 PM GMT
That would have to be a DRAM module... I was doing to do something like that when I have some time, but not for a while, and the SX EOL put a kink in my plans. By some strange coincidence an FPGA development kit showed up at my door on Monday...
mctrivia said...
If someone wants to write the cpld code I can make a 128mb module for $100 and split profit with programmer.
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW! www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
You can get DIP SRAM for the rate listed above, and then just increse the size of the board to accomidate more chips. No, you would not be able to make it for $30.
Edit: Can I type a post without someone beating me to it?!?!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Just call me micro.
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microcontrolled said...
@Agent420: There IS a text-to-speech object that has been created by Phil Philgrim. It is quite amazing and is called "Talk". I will try to find a link.
Just found that in a forum thread, will have to play around tonight.· If it is refined enough create comprehnsible speech, I cannot understand why this wouldn't be a demo, let alone not listed in the object exchange.· Very strange.·
This is the problem with Phil Philgrim: He almost NEVER puts his objects in the OBEX!! He comes up with these GREAT objects (3D graphics, Talk) and then NEVER puts them in the OBEX!!! The only reason that I can think that he would do this is that he dosn't want to surrender to the MIT Licence agreement.
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If it's not Parallax then don't even bother. · I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order. Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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No, the license has nothing to do with it: I'm quite happy with the MIT license. Once an object is in the OBEX, though, there's an implicit obligation to keep any updates backwards compatible. This entails a certain level of maturity in the objects available there. In the phoneme-to-speech case, I haven't felt that the quality was worthy of OBEX inclusion yet. It needs more work, which I haven't had time to devote. The 3D object, OTOH, may well be ready for prime time. Uploading it to the OBEX is "on my list" of things to do, but it's a long list.
This is very OT, BTW, so let's not continue this subject here, okay?
Hey bmb!, I hear they already have Wolfenstein 3D working on it, but the problem is the Nazi soldiers are too smart and it's impossible to clear the first level.
Ha ha. Why is everyone joking so much about it? Admittingly, (yea, I spelled it wrong) it is almost impossible to put full AI into a series of 4 Propellers, even with SRAM. If it is achieved somewhat, They should make it in object form and product form, because an object that could learn and recognize voice is an amazing thing indeed.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother. · I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order. Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
I have seen the machine intelligence technology work on a PC platform.· I have seen it learn to read.· It is a slow process, but the fact is, it was a success.
I had a conversation with Dr. Gouge just yesterday that shed new light on this, however.· Dr. Gouge did it as a military project.· He had major modifications to the PC, including the graphics board which he built from scratch for the machine intelligence software to work.·
So, what I gather from that conversation is, as much as we would like to show a demo, we really cannot.· It will not work an any PC.· But, that is why we are building a new platform based on the Propeller, so everyone interested can build their own and experiment/research with machine intelligence.
Mark, pardon my incredulity, but something's getting distorted in your second-hand conveyance of information. The Propeller is a great chip, but it's not magic. It takes bits in and spits bits out. A PC takes bits in and spits bits out. They're both universal in the Turing sense and both very fast, although a PC running at 3.2GHz is "somewhat" faster than a Prop at 0.08GHz x 8. I'd like to believe that a $7.00 chip can do marvelous AI that's beyond the reach of a 3.2GHz Pentium; but, frankly, such a claim is not credible.
People. Please do not tear the friendship of thoughs, that make up a forum. No two persons will ever have the same line of thinking, and this tread, and previous, seems to be causing a few fractious thoughts.
These things are sent to try us. The things I wish to do are wonderful, to me, but I would not dare to put out anything until it bears a basic usage or lateral thought. I certainly do not wish to make a single penny out of others thinking, unless I have been employed by them (their fault then). I have been flippent, and cast down, before and accept such as part of the banter.
These sieries of pronouncements have caused very polarized responces, lets wait, it will either be the second comming of the silicon, or hype.
And every time somebody replies up to the top table it goes, again.
Double D'Oh.
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Style and grace : Nil point
Comments
I recall seeing some code from MIT that referred to this 'conversion' into digital format, and in the end, it was just a hash table leading to a dispatch code. Is this the 'clever' idea? I suppose anything can be hashed ...
Cheers!
Paul Rowntree
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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And on that topic, has anyone here in this forum purchased these expansion boards?· I'd think that of those bleeding edge Prop users one or two of them must follow this forum.
Ray
Though I would be using sdram to make cheaper and smaller imaking in small quantites(16 board panels) parts for a plug and play module are a lot more.
The real point isn't how much profit they make. I am all for making them rich if there is proof behind the wild claims.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
@Agent420: There IS a text-to-speech object that has been created by Phil Philgrim. It is quite amazing and is called "Talk". I will try to find a link.
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
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Just a random thought.
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Caelum videre iussit, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus
Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
Let's see you interface that cheap dram with the Prop..
To get the performance being pontificated about you require either a high performance DRAM controller or super fast SRAM. It's not that cheap.
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lt's not particularly silly, is it?
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Caelum videre iussit, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus
Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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That was my first guess but after checking out the web site I began to think it meant "Kiss your money goodbye".
Cheers
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Caelum videre iussit, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus
Certe, toto, sentio nos in kansate non iam adesse
Even the SELLER has to admit that it is overpriced.
Edit: Dang it! You posted before me, Praxis!
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order.
Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
KISS - "keep it simple stupid".
@mctrivia, no it was not sarcasm. I guess everybody has a right to provide excuses.
Ray
The $30 1GB module is DDR2 memory - dynamic ram, and high speed specialized ram at that.
The modules are made qty. MILLIONS, and each chip on the module in those quantities costs <$1. The PCB's are practically free in those quantities, and automated assembly also costs diddly (in those quantities).
That $30 retail module was bought by your retailer for probably around $25 from a distributor, who got it for <$20 from the manufacturer.
Dr.Jim's, Mallred's, Jazzed's, Cluso's and my memory modules are made with STATIC ram, with only 512KB per chip.
In low quantities, these chips cost about $3.50 each. You need four of them for 2MB. Then you have the cost of designing the PCB's, getting test PCB's testing them, and getting a production run of PCB's. Then there is the MOQ's (minimum order quantities) for the parts you stuff the PCB's with, for the memory chips and other parts. Then you need to leave some room for markup by distributors and dealers if you are doing it as more than a hobby selling directly. Also don't forget the time spent ordering components, taking orders, kitting, answering emails, phone calls, chasing after distributors and fabs to make sure you get your parts and boards on time... courier fees... packaging fees... advertising costs... distributor and dealer margins....
If you try to use fast 2MBx8 SRAM's it gets worse - those are about $25 each, and come in TSOPII surface mount packages, thus you are pretty much forced to get them assembled with a pick and place machine and reflowed - bringing on another set of NRE's (non-recurring engineering) costs. And let's not forget the MOQ's, prototyping costs etc.
Anyone who sells a 2MB static ram module for $30 will be losing money on each sale - even if it is a kit.
When comparing prices you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples - apple to pumpkin comparisons don't work.
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
Post Edited (Bill Henning) : 8/12/2009 3:21:24 PM GMT
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
Morpheus & Mem+ Advanced dual Propeller SBC with XMM and 256 Color VGA - PCB, kit, A&T available NOW!
www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
Edit: Can I type a post without someone beating me to it?!?!
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order.
Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order.
Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
as for making a memmory module if anyone interested We can talk about that here.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
This is very OT, BTW, so let's not continue this subject here, okay?
-Phil
I kid, of course, but I also find this whole thing a big joke (on us).
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Just call me micro.
If it's not Parallax then don't even bother.
·
I have changed my avatar so that I will no longer be confused with others who use genaric avatars.
Mini-Din/PS2 connectors are for sale! 5 for $1! PM me if you wish to make an order.
Cheap·shipping unless specified!··········150 left!!··
I have seen the machine intelligence technology work on a PC platform.· I have seen it learn to read.· It is a slow process, but the fact is, it was a success.
I had a conversation with Dr. Gouge just yesterday that shed new light on this, however.· Dr. Gouge did it as a military project.· He had major modifications to the PC, including the graphics board which he built from scratch for the machine intelligence software to work.·
So, what I gather from that conversation is, as much as we would like to show a demo, we really cannot.· It will not work an any PC.· But, that is why we are building a new platform based on the Propeller, so everyone interested can build their own and experiment/research with machine intelligence.
Thanks,
Mark
-Phil
Ouch Phil ! ... all these years, I thought I/O and processing was done with beans.
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Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
These things are sent to try us. The things I wish to do are wonderful, to me, but I would not dare to put out anything until it bears a basic usage or lateral thought. I certainly do not wish to make a single penny out of others thinking, unless I have been employed by them (their fault then). I have been flippent, and cast down, before and accept such as part of the banter.
These sieries of pronouncements have caused very polarized responces, lets wait, it will either be the second comming of the silicon, or hype.
And every time somebody replies up to the top table it goes, again.
Double D'Oh.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Style and grace : Nil point