Open Source High Speed SRAM Module(AKA Super Prop)
mctrivia
Posts: 3,772
I am considering combining a Altera EPM240F100C4N(192 Macroscells, 240 Logic Blocks, 80 IO pins)
with 1-8 ON Semiconductor N02L63W3AB25I
cost would be about $40+$5x with minimum order of 25.(x being number of megs between 2 and 16 rounded up to nearest even number)
the only problem is I do not know how to program the CPLD.
So my question is whould people be interested in a board with open source code for the cpld. or would someone else like to make the module instead and i can help with designing the pcb. If someone else wants to make you should know both parts are BGA packages.
Also second question is will that CPLD do from my quick research I beleive it would but I am still studying CPLDs.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 8/26/2009 4:57:02 PM GMT
with 1-8 ON Semiconductor N02L63W3AB25I
cost would be about $40+$5x with minimum order of 25.(x being number of megs between 2 and 16 rounded up to nearest even number)
the only problem is I do not know how to program the CPLD.
So my question is whould people be interested in a board with open source code for the cpld. or would someone else like to make the module instead and i can help with designing the pcb. If someone else wants to make you should know both parts are BGA packages.
Also second question is will that CPLD do from my quick research I beleive it would but I am still studying CPLDs.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 8/26/2009 4:57:02 PM GMT
Comments
That is a great CPLD - it is actually a small FPGA, and is on my list of CPLD's to try.
FYI, that memory chip is only 2Mbit (256KB) so you need four of them for one MB. They are about $3.50 each, and you would need four per MB - so I suggest that you revise your pricing formula to:
$40+$14x
where X is the number of megabytes; and $14 because $3.50x4 = $14
Therefore a 2MB module would cost $40+4*$14 = $96 ... which is still cheaper than Dr.Jim's module.
Using the same 4mbit (512KB) chips I use, your formula would become:
$40+x*$7
Therefore a 2MB module would cost $40+$17, or $57
If you were selling directly, that's fine. If you were trying to have it go through distribution you would need to allow for their margin, so you would have to sell for over $100 - still cheaper than Dr. Jim
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
Morpheus & Mem+dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, 2MB memory IO board kit $89.95
www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
They are about $6.70 qty 1 on DigiKey.
However, considering the size of your CPLD, a 32Mx8 SDRAM would be more appropriate for hitting a cost target.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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Please use mikronauts _at_ gmail _dot_ com to contact me off-forum, my PM is almost totally full
Morpheus & Mem+dual Prop SBC w/ 512KB kit $119.95, 2MB memory IO board kit $89.95, both kits $189.95
www.mikronauts.com - my site 6.250MHz custom Crystals for running Propellers at 100MHz
Las - Large model assembler for the Propeller Largos - a feature full nano operating system for the Propeller
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
the CY7C1049 is not available in BGA but is in TSSOP II for very reasonable price.
N04L63W2AB27I is available in BGA for almost same price but is 70ns but that is 14MHz still and I don't expect more then 7 is reasonable to prop.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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If you make an SRAM memory module, the total read "burst" access time (no address write but maybe a CPLD address increment) should be < 50ns and preferably < 12ns.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
If I can find single side surface mount chips I could make them fit the dip 40 form factor with prop and crystal onboard but would make a little more expensive. I was planning to make the pcb edge the connector instead to make generic to any micro.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
Will use 12ns ram.
A sip package linning up with prop pins probably best so could be soldered under dip module.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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Yes, Matt, absolutely.
funny ... your exact application is one of the reasons why I started that learning thread about CPLD's and FPGA's.
The ram boards out there seem too expensive (e.g. from one vendor who causes a LOT of heat each time he posts [noparse]:)[/noparse]
or they're too klunky (aka the hydra which uses some weird kludge of glue logic).
So an open source AND usable mem setup is very welcome --- plus this would help those of us like me who want to learn this stuff better.
> Will use 12ns ram
Sweet ! (I wasn't sure if I could get the CPLD to work properly with the ram at that speed. Nice)
thanks for your efforts. And thanks to Steve and Bill for keeping things rolling...
- Howard
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using CY7C1041DV33-10BVXI i can get 4 also. x=0.5,1,1.5,2
X is megabytes.
either way cost would be roughly $40+20x
I think first option would be best would allow for a lot more memory.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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I thought you were talking about a 128MegaByte SDRAM solution.
Either way, I think you have the right idea about being Open Source.
Just look at all people that pitched in to design the 8xpropeller board. Unfortunately, not everybody knows what to do with 8 propellers.
Doug
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
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Can we get a list of features ?
- Form factor
- amount of memory
- bus width: addresses, control, data
- bandwidth needed and type of access: random, burst or both.
One question: do you want to do a video driver with it ? burst access at pixel clock will be needed: 12-5 or 25 or 30 MT/s
I'd really want to have a fast video card for 640x480 or 512x384 or 800x600. More is just too much I think.
btw: I've been using Xilinx CPLDs; I have the software setup (just download it, it is free for some devices) and programming cable and so on.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU
Post Edited (Ale) : 8/13/2009 6:07:44 AM GMT
As for the cpld or any other parts I am Not set on them 100% I chose the cpld because it is a bga pack small and inexpensive but still with lots of power and io pins. If you would rather an xilinx chip and you can program it can be changed.
As for features I figured we would probably end up with several different codes eventually to better handle different situations.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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I was doing more or less the same (now everything packaged because I am moving to new house: I'll be operative again with laboratory stuff somewhere in October). I am using a xilinx coolrunner-ii because of cheaper starting kit ($39). My setup (protopyped) is 2 props (target 4: pins P0..P7+P24..P31+reset+Xin to cpld), 2 CY1061DV33-10ZSXI to cpld, 2 winbond W25Q16BV in 4 bit mode (no sharing pins) to cpld, max3232 to cpld. Cpld clocked with laboratory frequency generator @160MHz (when start working again, after the last readings on the forum will move to 200MHz).
I like this ram because it's capable of 8 and 16 bits read/write.
Since now done (in cpld):
- serial switcher for props P30/31
- I2C circuitry (during boot P28/29 from each prop are isolated, once booted this became an I2C bus with other two cpld pins connected to a ramtron FM31L278 and other devices (on motherboard))
- eeprom emulation (prop boots from winbond spi flash)
- dual port ram scheme: 2 props burst read/write one byte/word per instruction (pasm - noloops: done on 64 bytes/words packets for debug: just move the input(sram) to cog register)
- props frequency divider: cpld supplies clock to props - they can be from in sync to 180° out of phase in four steps (don't really sure if this is needed but this is my test bench and maybe due to cpld timings I will need this in the future, till now run them in sync)
What I want to do:
- at the end this should became a daughter board (maybe dimm connector or eurocard) of more or less dimm size (little higher) with components on both the sides (probably 4 layer pcb) with no other headers/specialized connectors since I need this at least for 4 different projects (2 of them 400 units). P0P23 of each prop on connector with all cpld unused IOs. All the IOs/connectors and/or other ICs will be on the motherboard including jtag.
- I have tested small bursts just to debug the dual port ram circuitry but I am still unsure if I have used the right prop pins. I will need to investigate with the forum gurus what the best solution is prior to pcb design. I am learning pasm and I'll need help to extract the max bandwith from this design (for high bandwith sram random reads maybe the address can be transfered serially with a counter while the data are parallel)
- one other thing I like to try is to boot the prop from spi flash using the serial instead of i2c (right now I do not know which is faster and if this make sense and if it is doable)
- on the daugher connector also the P0P7 will be routed: forming on the motherboard a 3/3/2 bit dac with this signals (caming from cpld/sram which receive pixel clock from prop) while generating v/h sync with prop and having the second prop writing the screens in sram maybe better vga output is possible: need to try
- last week have received 3 CY22150KFC/CY22393FXC: when start again on this project I need to try if this programable clock generators are suitable for this design and accurate enough for prop video/vga purposes
BTW: what is the max clock outputable by a counter if the prop is supplied with a 80/100 MHz external clock
Chers
I am doing single sided to keep cost down and also keep thinner. Also at density I am running without blind via would require 6 layers to double side.
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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here is a concept drawing showing the cpld and all needed decoupling caps. purple boarder is the size of a dip 40. as you can see i should be able to fit all parts in the area but would be slightly longer then a regular dip 40. the cpld is to wide to go between the pins so putting a dip 40 prop on top is not possible however it may be possible to place a qfn prop on the other side if suitable surface mount header can be found. would be crazy tight but would be a pin compatible replacement for the dip40 prop but with lots of on board ram. Grid is 25mil
Any thoughts? Have a part number for a header i can use?
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
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What do you think about my sram chip solution? I choose this for the 10nS access time, the 16 wide data bus and specially because is capable of byte and word reads/writes (you can choose to write only the high or low byte of the addressed word - higher bandwidth and higher flexibility)
For the cpld I am considering xilinx coolrunner ii (XC2C128/XC2C256/XC2C384) and altera max ii (epm570/epm1270) both in TQ144 package. Now working on xilinx because of the lower cost dev.board but I like very much the altera builtin 8K flash which make possible to change the preset values in non-volatile way. I have still to try two ideas (once I have clarified better the prop hardware): 1) use video hardware in video mode as a serializer to transmit ram address to the cpld at 160MHz; 2)use the video hardware in vga mode to multiplex write data to ram on 8 bit data bus between prop and cpld (if waitvid takes 5 clock cycles it sould by enuogh to multiplex all the four bytes to the cpld). Because of this I am supplying 160M clock to the cpld which divide it by 2 and feed the prop xin with pll disabled (I want to keep the prop system clock as much in sync and jitter free with the cpld one)
I suggest the same clock solution if you intend to fit your board with prop. In this case maybe a good solution could be to route all the prop pins both to cpld and dip connector: then is up to the cpld programmer to use them all or part of them and leave the others HiZ
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· Propeller Object Exchange (last Publications / Updates)
By keeping with dip40 package allows me to combine a few projects together including
My original ram idea but with less ram
Qfn to dip adapter for prop
Jazz ram module.
Also let's module be used in all dip40 prop projects
Was thinking of providing pads for a crystal on board to allow doing exactly what you suggest.
I would provide a file sharing system on my site to allow people to share there code.
Your sugesgion I do not believe can meet the dip 40 requirement.
I am just having difficulty finding surface mount headers that can fit in socket. Or for that matter only having pins on 1side
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propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5
Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.
Need to upload large images or movies for use in the forum. you can do so at uploader.propmodule.com for free.
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Visit some of my articles at Propeller Wiki:
MATH on the propeller propeller.wikispaces.com/MATH
pPropQL: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL
pPropQL020: propeller.wikispaces.com/pPropQL020
OMU for the pPropQL/020 propeller.wikispaces.com/OMU