each prop has its own reset on the programming head. then through a diode there is a reset line for the whole board.
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mctrivia said...
true it is not the cheapest thing out there but to put it in perspective Propeller Professional Development Board, and Propeller Control Board are both more money and not as many propellers.
they must be scared. they could sell these if they want to.
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mctrivia, you are just in mind-reading mode today... freaky really. While I was typing that other stuff, I was thinking about how best to isolate the reset line for an individual Prop. Thanks for the answer!
Ned
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
I have decided I should make 2 different mother board layouts. 1 being a strip so boards are above each other. the other having 4 on each side with the option of having a 1x1 propmod as the controller for each brain board.
will make mother boards all through whole with exception of timing circuit which will be already soldered on.
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I was thinking since I am even scared to solder this and I do surface mount all the time and I got a deal on the assembly if I do a whole panel to sell them assembled only.
if several really want to try $20 for the pcb
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@mictrivia, if I may make a suggestion -- maybe you should think in terms of prop daughter boards plugging into a passive motherboard through edge connectors. That would be scalable as need requires.
yes but very large. originally I was going to put everything on 1 board. settled for a compromise between all on 1 board and each separate. now I have a motherboard which other then clock is passive with boards of 8 that can be plugged in as needed
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cluso has his tri blade for those that only want 3 this is for those that want multiples of 8.
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that said one of my motherboard design is exactly what you said. 9 headers for 1x1 propmod 8 headers for brain boards, clock, tv, keyboard, mouse.
you don't have to use brain board you could use header for io
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that is only half a claim. What vital flaw do you see in my design that would make it useless?
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Well Cluso?
As a potential customer for McT's board, I'd be very interested in knowing why I'd be wasting my money.
Please either explain or modify your comment. Apparently mctrivia doesn't mind you criticizing his design publicly, and you'd be doing the rest of us a service.
Ned
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
I don't mind people pointing out flaws. I can fix them if they do.
and I have taken 2 electronics courses as part of my diploma in electrical engineering technology. I May be a little rusty in something as I work as an electrician full time now but I do look up or ask when unsure.
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I am extremely busy (for a few days) and also contemplating how to word a reply. Rest assured I will do so in the next few days, and my apologies for not rushing the response.
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well until we get an answer back here is my conceptulization of the normal motherboard.
Each brain board** connects into the 18 pin header. there is room for a 1x1 propmod beside each header. the 1x1 header will act as network switch passing information on to the 18bit wide main bus only if it thinks it should. any other microcontroler or even a simle buffer circuit could be used instead. jumper wires would not be recomended because signal integrity will degrade if to many props are trying to use the same physical bus.
P0-P9 would be connected to the brain board header, P10-P27 would be the 18 bit main bus. P28,29 not used outside of 1x1 board, P30,31 connected to rx,tx led but could be used for io instead.
There is space for 1 extra 1x1 on the board to act as master controler and console. Connected to it are a keyboard, mouse, and tv interface.
The clock design is still not entirely determined as I want to make the motheboard compatible with the Prop 2. Most likely there will be a 10MHz crystal providing the prop2 clock signal and a divider circuit to run the prop clock signal. By doing this you could just add prop2 brain boards to the system when they come out with prop 1 running still. The prop2 would be locked in sync but would run 8 instructions for every 1 on the prop1.
clock signal and 2 of the master bus lines would have another header for stacking motherboards making expandability infinit. Each of the lines would have a buffer attached making 1 input only and 1 output only.
Any thoughts or sugestions?
**The name brain board was used because so far only 3 names have been submited and no votes on any of them. There are really 3 names needed. The system as a whole, the mother board and the brain board.
My submition is:
whole system: Prop Super Computer
Mother Board: Mother Board
Brain Board: Brain Board
WNed sugested: "Prop Wrangler" think that was for the brain board
jazzed sugested: "OctoProp" for the brain board.
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McT - Where are you going with this thing? The artwork I'm looking at is pretty much the carrier board I described 5 pages back. That was supposed to be a complete setup, and everybody agreed that it would be wildly expensive... now you have the same thing, but it's only *part* of the system.
Are those pin-outs you list for just the 1X1 boards?
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
1x1 do not have to be used that is just the form factor I chose so they could for anyone wanting a simple control circuit. with experimentation jumper wires could be used for a few brain boards for free. a buffer circuit could be used also. both of these would be cheap but collisions would be often. using a 1x1 would be more money but would allow you to write a custom switch system.
still cheaper as only 1 1x1 is needed for every 8 props. and with this board layout you could do as you originally sugeasted and not use brain board.
yes the pin out is for this board only brain board has not changed.
also I do plan to make a smaller simpler design also using on board buffers.
the pcb for either design I will give for free to anyone buying 2 or more brain boards
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also that is just a conception any suggestions for this board or option b which I have not dawn yet.
my though on b is tri state buffer on 9 bus lines with 1 pin as direction control line.
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mctrivia said...
with this board layout you could do as you originally sugeasted and not use brain board.
That's exactly what I thought when I saw it! As much as I'd love to have a tera-proc system, it's very likely that I'll start out by just getting the main board and a couple of 1X1's. Then, depending on the contracts I get, I can either fill in more 1by's or get a BB or two.
I did not mean to sound critical of the new design, just a bit confused... in fact for one of the applications I have for this system, the intelligent switching you've added is crucial, and I was expecting to have to wire it myself. Thanks for saving me the work! If I ever get a home run of a contract, I'll go for the free main board option... not holding my breath, though.
Ned
"PropWrangler" is starting to look more appropriate for the main board...
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
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I have pondered on how to answer without being too critical...
Firstly, I congratulate your ideas for that many props. Not that I can see any use - but we went to the moon didn't we! From discussions offline, I know you cannot afford to waste money.
However, like your PropMod, it was designed by others because you lack the basic electronic skills. That is obvious by your questions and answers. This project is quite complex and I am sure you have missed many issues, including as I said offline, loading. I said then I don't have the time to help you design your project.
The biggest problems in electronics are the intermittent failures caused by design errors. Much to many companies dismay, these are usually only found after a number of products are fail in the field.
Many electricians wire TV aerials in a daisy chain fashion here in Australia because they know no different. A splitter is required and of course this reduces signal strength. I am not saying you are one of these, just illustrating a point.
I do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, but likewise I don't wish you or others to waste money on projects that may not work due to lack of understanding.
May I suggest you try simpler circuits where others with knowledge may be able to guide you. And read some books or do a design course. A simple circuit wastes little and you learn. A complex circuit can waste a lot and may kill any enthusiasm you may have. In other words, only risk falling a little, not a lot.
Ray
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why do you think others designed my propmod? the only part I had any help with was the fuse idea. I did not know enough about the chip to know if it would damage it so I asked.
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Cluso99 said...
I have pondered on how to answer without being too critical...
Firstly, I congratulate your ideas for that many props. Not that I can see any use - but we went to the moon didn't we! From discussions offline, I know you cannot afford to waste money.
However, like your PropMod, it was designed by others because you lack the basic electronic skills. That is obvious by your questions and answers. This project is quite complex and I am sure you have missed many issues, including as I said offline, loading. I said then I don't have the time to help you design your project.
The biggest problems in electronics are the intermittent failures caused by design errors. Much to many companies dismay, these are usually only found after a number of products are fail in the field.
Many electricians wire TV aerials in a daisy chain fashion here in Australia because they know no different. A splitter is required and of course this reduces signal strength. I am not saying you are one of these, just illustrating a point.
I do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, but likewise I don't wish you or others to waste money on projects that may not work due to lack of understanding.
May I suggest you try simpler circuits where others with knowledge may be able to guide you. And read some books or do a design course. A simple circuit wastes little and you learn. A complex circuit can waste a lot and may kill any enthusiasm you may have. In other words, only risk falling a little, not a lot.
Ray
Wow, not critical, but very condescending!
Not I'm an electrical engineer by any means, and I take the minimalist side to everything, but I see no constructive criticism in this post.
Other than a possible loading issue, I do not see that you offer any suggestions other than, forget the project and go back to school.
I find that many people do things that books say are impossible. I know, I just assembled one that replaces a CD changer in a car. The engineers who looked at it, said it couldn't be done with a 2 layer board. It works, and very well.
I do try to steer people in the right direction, but give my reasons and leave it at that. I really feel your post was only slightly "without being too critical..."
I also note that you said,"projects that may not work", which suggest that the project may in fact work.
I feel your post would have been better if you would have just stated your opinion, that you do not believe it will work as it is designed.
Your intentions may be great, but your methods are something less than desirable.
I would say that his marks were pretty much slanderous. He made acusations to my inteligence and knowledge that are without bases and wrong. He remarks saying it will not work but gives no reason to why.
Loading issue mentioned has been addressed and is why the main board uses active buffering or direct prop control. 8 props can easily share 1 line without any issues as long as one does not try to pull the line high and another low at the same time. That is why I have pull up resisters so you never pull it high but instead alter the input direction to input to transmit a 1 and drive it low to output a 0. Clock signals are buffered several places(I admit I overlooked the loading on this line at first but we are all human)
I have no problems with someone saying I have made a mistake if they can point out the mistake. You do not need to tell me how to fix it but if you are going to say it will not work you need at least give a reason.
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I am sorry you have taken it the wrong way. I won't comment further and wish you luck in your project.
Postedit: My apologies for being harsh. I certainly did not mean to be.·Please check your loading and buffer circuitry·and don't forget at high speeds the lengths of tracks and connectors will come into play.
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why do you think others designed my propmod? the only part I had any help with was the fuse idea. I did not know enough about the chip to know if it would damage it so I asked.
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never knew there was such a word. means almost the same. I am not about to sue him over his words but I do believe a professional would not make claims against another persons knowledge, or workmanship without reliable evidence. he has not purchased any products off me. I test all my assembled products before sale and even blank pcb are tested not to have shorts between major rails even though a 3rd party makes them for me. I have never herd any complaints about my products from those that have purchased off me.
I have graduated from a 4 year diploma course in electrical engineering technology. I have been programming for 20 years and I am only 26.
I work as a commercial electrician because the money and options are better(and it help me keep in shape)
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Comments
each prop has its own reset on the programming head. then through a diode there is a reset line for the whole board.
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--Steve
Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230
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Ned
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
will make mother boards all through whole with exception of timing circuit which will be already soldered on.
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How much will a bare board cost?
Ned
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
4 caps
1 diode
1 eeprom
2 resistors
1 prop
I was thinking since I am even scared to solder this and I do surface mount all the time and I got a deal on the assembly if I do a whole panel to sell them assembled only.
if several really want to try $20 for the pcb
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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you don't have to use brain board you could use header for io
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
As a potential customer for McT's board, I'd be very interested in knowing why I'd be wasting my money.
Please either explain or modify your comment. Apparently mctrivia doesn't mind you criticizing his design publicly, and you'd be doing the rest of us a service.
Ned
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
and I have taken 2 electronics courses as part of my diploma in electrical engineering technology. I May be a little rusty in something as I work as an electrician full time now but I do look up or ask when unsure.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Each brain board** connects into the 18 pin header. there is room for a 1x1 propmod beside each header. the 1x1 header will act as network switch passing information on to the 18bit wide main bus only if it thinks it should. any other microcontroler or even a simle buffer circuit could be used instead. jumper wires would not be recomended because signal integrity will degrade if to many props are trying to use the same physical bus.
P0-P9 would be connected to the brain board header, P10-P27 would be the 18 bit main bus. P28,29 not used outside of 1x1 board, P30,31 connected to rx,tx led but could be used for io instead.
There is space for 1 extra 1x1 on the board to act as master controler and console. Connected to it are a keyboard, mouse, and tv interface.
The clock design is still not entirely determined as I want to make the motheboard compatible with the Prop 2. Most likely there will be a 10MHz crystal providing the prop2 clock signal and a divider circuit to run the prop clock signal. By doing this you could just add prop2 brain boards to the system when they come out with prop 1 running still. The prop2 would be locked in sync but would run 8 instructions for every 1 on the prop1.
clock signal and 2 of the master bus lines would have another header for stacking motherboards making expandability infinit. Each of the lines would have a buffer attached making 1 input only and 1 output only.
Any thoughts or sugestions?
**The name brain board was used because so far only 3 names have been submited and no votes on any of them. There are really 3 names needed. The system as a whole, the mother board and the brain board.
My submition is:
whole system: Prop Super Computer
Mother Board: Mother Board
Brain Board: Brain Board
WNed sugested: "Prop Wrangler" think that was for the brain board
jazzed sugested: "OctoProp" for the brain board.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Are those pin-outs you list for just the 1X1 boards?
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
1x1 do not have to be used that is just the form factor I chose so they could for anyone wanting a simple control circuit. with experimentation jumper wires could be used for a few brain boards for free. a buffer circuit could be used also. both of these would be cheap but collisions would be often. using a 1x1 would be more money but would allow you to write a custom switch system.
still cheaper as only 1 1x1 is needed for every 8 props. and with this board layout you could do as you originally sugeasted and not use brain board.
yes the pin out is for this board only brain board has not changed.
also I do plan to make a smaller simpler design also using on board buffers.
the pcb for either design I will give for free to anyone buying 2 or more brain boards
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my though on b is tri state buffer on 9 bus lines with 1 pin as direction control line.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
I did not mean to sound critical of the new design, just a bit confused... in fact for one of the applications I have for this system, the intelligent switching you've added is crucial, and I was expecting to have to wire it myself. Thanks for saving me the work! If I ever get a home run of a contract, I'll go for the free main board option... not holding my breath, though.
Ned
"PropWrangler" is starting to look more appropriate for the main board...
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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno
Post Edited (WNed) : 4/27/2009 4:25:16 PM GMT
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Firstly, I congratulate your ideas for that many props. Not that I can see any use - but we went to the moon didn't we! From discussions offline, I know you cannot afford to waste money.
However, like your PropMod, it was designed by others because you lack the basic electronic skills. That is obvious by your questions and answers. This project is quite complex and I am sure you have missed many issues, including as I said offline, loading. I said then I don't have the time to help you design your project.
The biggest problems in electronics are the intermittent failures caused by design errors. Much to many companies dismay, these are usually only found after a number of products are fail in the field.
Many electricians wire TV aerials in a daisy chain fashion here in Australia because they know no different. A splitter is required and of course this reduces signal strength. I am not saying you are one of these, just illustrating a point.
I do not wish to dampen your enthusiasm, but likewise I don't wish you or others to waste money on projects that may not work due to lack of understanding.
May I suggest you try simpler circuits where others with knowledge may be able to guide you. And read some books or do a design course. A simple circuit wastes little and you learn. A complex circuit can waste a lot and may kill any enthusiasm you may have. In other words, only risk falling a little, not a lot.
Ray
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Wow, not critical, but very condescending!
Not I'm an electrical engineer by any means, and I take the minimalist side to everything, but I see no constructive criticism in this post.
Other than a possible loading issue, I do not see that you offer any suggestions other than, forget the project and go back to school.
I find that many people do things that books say are impossible. I know, I just assembled one that replaces a CD changer in a car. The engineers who looked at it, said it couldn't be done with a 2 layer board. It works, and very well.
I do try to steer people in the right direction, but give my reasons and leave it at that. I really feel your post was only slightly "without being too critical..."
I also note that you said,"projects that may not work", which suggest that the project may in fact work.
I feel your post would have been better if you would have just stated your opinion, that you do not believe it will work as it is designed.
Your intentions may be great, but your methods are something less than desirable.
My opinion,
James L
Loading issue mentioned has been addressed and is why the main board uses active buffering or direct prop control. 8 props can easily share 1 line without any issues as long as one does not try to pull the line high and another low at the same time. That is why I have pull up resisters so you never pull it high but instead alter the input direction to input to transmit a 1 and drive it low to output a 0. Clock signals are buffered several places(I admit I overlooked the loading on this line at first but we are all human)
I have no problems with someone saying I have made a mistake if they can point out the mistake. You do not need to tell me how to fix it but if you are going to say it will not work you need at least give a reason.
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
Postedit: My apologies for being harsh. I certainly did not mean to be.·Please check your loading and buffer circuitry·and don't forget at high speeds the lengths of tracks and connectors will come into play.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, SixBladeProp, website (Multiple propeller pcbs)
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
Post Edited (Cluso99) : 4/28/2009 3:40:09 PM GMT
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
www.carter-ruck.com/FAQs/Libel%20and%20Slander%20Cases.html
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
I have graduated from a 4 year diploma course in electrical engineering technology. I have been programming for 20 years and I am only 26.
I work as a commercial electrician because the money and options are better(and it help me keep in shape)
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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.