prop galore[512 32 bit processors - 10.2GIPs]

mctrivia

I have 2 new propmod designs for $5 pcb $30 assembled listed at http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=15&m=341159


I am now designing a small board to house 32 props. each will load from the same eeprom so startup will be longer the more props you put on.

there will only 1 crystal to run everything so all will be in sync.


price $15 for pcb assembled depends on number of props

each will have 5 pins assigned to let it know what number it is.


questions

how many bus pins should be connecting all the ics I think 8 should be good how about you?

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

Post Edited (mctrivia) : 4/21/2009 5:12:37 AM GMT

rjo_

Wow... how many do you have to sell to break even?

SRLM

I'm not sure how well that will do commercially. For just the props that about $250 USD. Although the design is interesting...

mctrivia

I am panelising it with the other boards so 5 is all I need for it.

it will be laid out so not all 32 need to be populated. there will be 1 0 Ohm needed to designated the last prop for the all loaded pulse.


unlike my other modules which are designed to be thrown into a design for easy product design and building this one is just for the fun of it. what can you do with 256 32 bits processors?

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

Post Edited (mctrivia) : 4/16/2009 1:26:46 AM GMT

mctrivia

But if you used all 32 this board would give you 5.2GIPs faster then the 1.2GHz AMD Athlon and just a little less then the 2.0GHz AMD Athlon XP 2400+

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

mctrivia

Quick Question. Can you load multiple props with the same code by reseting it and transmiting to all the props RX line simultaneously? This would let the boards load faster with 1 prop acting as a master but would only work if I can ignore the TX from all the props.

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

SRLM

SMD, I suppose? I think each prop should have a power switch, so you can turn arbitrary props off. I've been wanting to try out the 'Byzantine General's Problem' or just cutting out different parts of a system and still have it maintain it's state.

mctrivia

ok i have space for this power switch: CHS-01TA

SRLM said...
SMD, I suppose?

Yes for size reasons all my new boards will be QFN package. They can still be hand soldered if you have a toaster oven.

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

Post Edited (mctrivia) : 4/16/2009 2:39:57 AM GMT

mctrivia

well i managed to answer my own question. Though the PropLoader code probably could be hacked to ignore the responses from the other ics allowing for parallel code loading in this way brown outs would be extremely detrimental to the entire system.

Ring loading from 1 eeprom would be very slow(over a minute to boot i believe) and would also have trouble in brown out conditions. For these reasons I think having pads for seperate EEPROM for each would be ideal. Loading the code this way would be tedious though but I can design a rapid loader to pogram multiple props at the same time.

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

jazzed

If all propellers are running from the same clock on XI (XO connected only on one prop no?) wouldn't they be doing and expecting exactly the same thing until load is complete? How does your XI clock look? Maybe a fast buffer for clock distribution and keeping clock shift minimum? Do you have any kind of ID bits on each propeller so that they know their role? Maybe each prop can be started by the previous one enabling the next one in a chain (release reset or gate the clock, etc...) ?

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--Steve


Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230

SRLM

From a programming perspective, I'd want each prop to be identical (in hardware). That way, you don't need 32 programs, you only need a few. Just thought I throw that out there ... [noparse]:)[/noparse]

jazzed

SRLM, If you have 32 different programs (or same for some if you so choose) for 32 identical pieces of hardware that would make sense. Independent EEPROMS would give maximum flexibility in the end. How do develop on it though? It seems that having the option for one download connection to control all resets would be desirable to replicate normal startup.

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--Steve


Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230

mctrivia

the design so far:

There is a power switch to each prop or 0 ohm resistor for always on

P4-P7: bus connected to every prop.
P23-P27: 5 bit id number
P28-29: EEPROM
P30-31: Programing(RX can be set to common bus to program all at once by use of 0 ohm resister)
Reset; Tied together on all
XI tied together on all. Figure use cheap micro and crystal or other circuit to generate the accurate 5Mhz signal. Any sugestions? Don't want to use prop0 because I want them to be all identical.



Questions:
1) Should I connect P19-22 as a second bus
1b) If so should it go to every prop also or the ones in that row of 8?



Estimated board dimensions is 5"x5"

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

SRLM

I was thinking along the lines of what I posted on Humanoido's Basic Stamp Super Computer thread in the completed projects forum.

Me said...
I like the idea. Your BSS could 'morph' to do whatever needs to be done. For example, if you had 100 IR temperature sensors hooked up to various parts of the BSS, you could have the master load the 'temperature imaging' program into each slave, and each would then execute simultanesouly. When done, you load some other program in to do something else. What this does is instead of processing data by doing all the tasks at the same time, it will allow you to do a single task very fast.

You'd have to develop an 'EEPROM' standard. I'm thinking something like 17 words of EEPROM: 16 to store pin definitions (like ping, IR, RF TX, etc. in shorthand numeric notation, of course), and the last to store the BSS slave number. As long as you don't overwrite that program, you should be able to load some generic program into the BS2s and have it execute appropriately, according to the data found in those 17 slots.

Another idea you may want to consider implementing is the Byzantine General Problem (Wikipedia here and lots more on google...). I saw a thread on this done with the Propeller, but there is no reason why it wouldn't work with the BS2. Of course, it's an advanced problem, but it's just the sort of thing to catapult your BSS from hobby to professional (while still being hobby priced [noparse]:)[/noparse] ).

As a side note, if you generalize your BSS structure and programs to things like "Keyboard Program", "LCD Program", and "Temperature program", you will be able to create your own library of BSS functions, then just 'call' them from the master. Adding another slave device is as simple as burning the EEPROM with the I/O configuration and slave number, and adding the number to the master.

mctrivia

well I do not know the bss but it looks like you want the ability to reprogram the props on the fly.

I can bus the programming pins with 0 Ohm jumpers to set which prop is master and which is slave(or all slave and prop plug master)

you want hardware to be identical. other then the id pins they will be. there will be headers for each free io pin. no on board hardware other then 3.3v power supply and if people want I can attach uSd card reader on one of the busses.

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

KPR

Here's a noobie questio.. what is the 0 ohm resister for?

mctrivia

for making 1 board with different options. essentially a jumper wire that automated machines can use

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

WNed

This project is very exciting in that it seems to offer the most flexibility of any of the multi-prop designs I've read about; basically a bunch of Props on a board waiting to be told what to do. Please stick with the minimalist philosophy, and don't let anyone make you design their end product into it. You've tied up only 13 IO pins, if I've counted correctly, and you plan to bring the rest out to headers, right? If anybody wants to implement a bus or whatever, they can get a wire wrap tool. The more open and adaptable you leave it, the better it will be for "creative development".

I'm a bit hazy on the details of expandability... are you going to have a socket for each Prop so they can be added in as needed? That would be great, but it doesn't sound like you're planning to use the 40 pin DIP... something about a toaster oven?

@Jazzed - if you're tracking this... Am I right in thinking that LMM makes dynamic or inter-Prop programming a tad more feasible? Where one Prop, with maybe a monitor program always running, could receive and load new programming on the fly easier than would be possible using the Prop's normal compartmental memory model.

Like I needed more fuel for my imagination...

Ned

Edit: @mctrivia, I was just looking at your new 1X1 board... Sweat! It might be worth while to create a "carrier board" that would use the interconnection of the multi-Prop board, but use 1X1 plug in modules to populate it. You could then have the option of treating each Prop as an individual that you can push and pop in and out of the system, or treat them as a single collective... whatever your project requires.

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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno

Post Edited (WNed) : 4/16/2009 4:48:35 PM GMT

mctrivia

I will keep as minimalist as possible. yes I am not using dip I am using the small qfn pack. smaller bord means cheaper

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

dMajo

Clock circuit: just 2 inverters (one for buffering)

mctrivia

thanks that is a huge help. any idea how much current I needs? I know max is .3 * 32 but what is normal plus margin?

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

dMajo

mctrivia said...
thanks that is a huge help. any idea how much current I needs? I know max is .3 * 32 but what is normal plus margin?

Not understood the question

mctrivia

32 props max draw is about 10 amp realistically how powerful a power supply do I actually need

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

mctrivia

using the 1x1 would be to expensive for 32 prop

would cost $40 for pcb alone. would work well for smaller numbers though.

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

jazzed

Ned, you don't need LMM for what you describe, but that doesn't stop you from using it.

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--Steve


Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230

dMajo

This is up to you: propeller ds says 80/90 mA (graph 9.1) at 80M so, at least, you need 3A but the upper limit depends on how high you will allow to load the unlinked/ext.available IO pins. The abs max is 10A, I agree.

Before I have associated the "current question" to the clock, sorry. Here the problem is not the current drawn by XI but could be the input capacitance. You can use something like this and use one inverter as oscillator and the remaining two, each one to drive 16 XI

Mike Huselton

SLRM, what is BSS? I wish people posting would not use abbreviations, as it assumes one is familiar with the topic under discussion. Surely, at least spell out the acronym at the beginning, or better yet, a propeller glossary in the stickies.

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JMH

Post Edited (James Michael Huselton) : 4/16/2009 7:07:04 PM GMT

mctrivia

or maybe 4 to run 8 each. my board layout is 4x8 grid. trace length on xi would be very short and 6 pack invertor are common

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Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.

WNed

@mctrivia - Good Lord, all 32 at once and you're looking at, like, $1280! I was thinking of something to add to over time... or if you're lucky enough to have a research grant, well hell, go for it. I understand that it's not really feasible to produce the "carrier" as a product. The cost effectiveness of the 32 Prop board will trump the adaptability of the carrier, I'll certainly buy one when I can.
Still, I do like the idea of individual, plugable modules enough that I'll probably build a one-off carrier for myself... don't expect me to be ordering 20 1X1's at a time though

@jazzed - Gosh... I don't know if I'd ever use something for an unintended purpose.

Ned

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"They may have computers, and other weapons of mass destruction." - Janet Reno

jazzed

@Ned ... Hmm, I didn't intend to suggest that [noparse]:)[/noparse]

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--Steve


Propalyzer: Propeller PC Logic Analyzer
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=788230

localroger

A couple of suggestions...

There is no need to provide for switching unused props off. By turning off cogs and running the clock down to RCSLOW the power consumption can be reduced to microamps, and you can wake them up if you want to because they can still respond to comms.

I think five lines for ID is kind of wasteful. What I'd propose is having one prop have the EEPROM, and have it load the others RAM as proptool does. (There is code floating around somewhere to do this.) This would save 3 lines on all but one of the props, the master which would be responsible for booting everybody up. The master could take care of ID'ing everyone in the process of booting them up.

For the interprop comm bus I recommend 10 lines, 8 bits for data and 2 control.