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Bragging Rights!!! The Wire Bending CNC and the Patent Application - Page 4 — Parallax Forums

Bragging Rights!!! The Wire Bending CNC and the Patent Application

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  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,050
    edited 2012-09-04 10:25
    Bruce,

    Best of luck.

    Looking forward to a very positive outcome!

    Jim
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-04 10:26
    They are already trying to pull a fast one :)
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-09-04 11:16
    Bruce,

    Realizing that you may not be at liberty to add details...

    is this a large corporation interested in buying your wire bender and making you wealthy beyond my dreams or is it a large corporation playing IP games and trying to jump your IP?

    Either way, I hope the outcome turns out in your favor.

    Good luck!
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-04 11:23
    mindrobots

    I am not attempting to sell the wire bender CNC to the corporation, I am just currently trying to catch their interest, independent of the avenue it takes, such as assgnment, licensing, or distribution. This is the second meeting pertaining to this patent, and it has been concluded.

    They want samples, but want to bypass my input, which I am disappointed with.

    Bruce
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,849
    edited 2012-09-04 19:13
    Heater. wrote: »
    Mickster,

    Nice idea. In the case of some start ups I have worked for the venture capital guys were not interested unless we had an IP portfolio, i.e. patents.

    But I do concur, unless you have a bottomless pit of money available to defend a patent it is not going to do you much good.

    Probably true in many instances regarding defence of patents, but I guess that if patents had no value then there would not be any point to corporations having armies of lawyers in house to defend them, not to mention all the private firms making a great living providing services to all the major medical centers and their research and to all the inventors not entrapped by the 2am infomercial patent dream scammers out there.

    Good Luck Bruce!!!!
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,312
    edited 2012-09-04 21:38
    idbruce wrote: »
    They want samples, but want to bypass my input, which I am disappointed with.

    I say as long as they BUY the samples, they don't have to take any input.

    Hope you sell a boatload!
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-05 15:18
    I want to thank everyone for their well wishes.

    The outcome of the meeting did not turn out the way I had hoped, but they intend to do a market evaluation, so it is not all bad. I still have the old fingers crossed.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,050
    edited 2012-09-05 15:28
    idbruce wrote: »
    I want to thank everyone for their well wishes.

    The outcome of the meeting did not turn out the way I had hoped, but they intend to do a market evaluation, so it is not all bad. I still have the old fingers crossed.

    Yes, an open ear is a good thing. I'm sure something good will come out pf it.

    Jim
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-05 15:35
    Jim
    Yes, an open ear is a good thing. I'm sure something good will come out pf it.

    I have had my fingers crossed for many months now and they are getting tired :) Hopefully it will be a quick decision when they get and test the samples I provided. I wonder if the crossed finger stuff really works. Perhaps I should cross my toes as well. :)
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2012-09-05 20:16
    Bruce, congratulations!
    I'm very impressed with your ability to do so much with your mind.
    Humanoido
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2012-09-05 21:49
    idbruce wrote: »
    I just wish I had someone to do the marketing for me.

    Have you heard of Shark Tank? These guys could get you yo yhe next level: http://abc.go.com/shows/shark-tank/casting
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,233
    edited 2012-09-06 02:42
    Humanoido,
    I'm very impressed with your ability to do so much with your mind.
    I'm sorry I had to have a little giggle at that statement. You see it is ambiguous and could be taken as a compliment or a put down.

    It reminds me of this exchange between Arthur Dent and Marvin the paranoid android in Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy.

    Marvin: [talking about the Ultimate Question to the Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything] It's printed in the Earthman's brainwave patterns, but I don't suppose you'd be interested in knowing that.
    Arthur Dent: You mean you can see into my mind?
    Marvin: Yes.
    Arthur Dent: Well?
    Marvin: It amazes me how you manage to live in anything that small.


    Anyway, well done Bruce.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-06 06:32
    @Humanoido

    I must say that I appreciate the compliment, but believe me, there is nothing to be impressed about. I just have several areas of interest that I have dabbled in for many years and I just know enough about these subjects to make me slightly dangerous. And most of these subjects, I had to study diligently to learn anything at all. On the other hand, I am very impressed with other people in the forum, and the communication exchanges that goes back and forth amongst the members. There are some very smart people here within this forum who deserve much more credit than me. It is true that I am proud of my patents, but the truth is that most people could file and get their own patents, if they had a sincere desire to do so. I can only claim bragging rights, because I had a sincere desire to learn and write my own patents with follow through. I certainly cannot make any claim to superior intellect. It is always a struggle for me. However, it has been said in this thread that acquiring a patent is easy, and this is very far from the truth. You must know the rules and laws very well, have the ability to write and describe ideas accurately with great detail, and be able to accurately draw your ideas so that others may understand the concept. The USPTO does not allow mistakes.

    @NWCCTV

    From what I have seen of that show, those investors are more interested in products and concepts that apply to the general population of the world as compared to specialized markets. However, there are many venture capitalists in the world, but the key is finding these people and convincing them that an idea is valid and worth financial pursuit. Considering that my patent has a very specific market, my best bet is to seek out investors that already have a significant foothold within the electrical construction industry, such as, Greenlee, Ideal, Gardner Bender, Erico, etc.... I also have the option of incorporating and selling stocks to acquire funding.

    As for the PM, I will answer your question later today when I have more time available.


    @Heater
    Anyway, well done Bruce.

    To be perfectly honest, this project has taken a turn in a direction that I did not want to go. I was hoping that I could manufacture and market my product without assistance from outside resources. I now realize that I was living in a fantasy world. Manufacturing is the easy part, but getting it to market and producing sales, well that is going to be very costly.
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2012-09-06 08:22
    idbruce wrote: »
    @Humanoido I must say that I appreciate the compliment, but believe me, there is nothing to be impressed about. I just have several areas of interest...

    To be perfectly honest, this project has taken a turn in a direction that I did not want to go. I was hoping that I could manufacture and market my product without assistance from outside resources. I now realize that I was living in a fantasy world. Manufacturing is the easy part, but getting it to market and producing sales, well that is going to be very costly.

    Bruce, it's Ok, you can be modest but I still can admire your projects and whatever methods you employed to gain your knowledge. Thanks for sharing your ideas along the way. Equally important as knowledge is respect towards others and you seem to have a lot of both.

    (Yes, Heater, if you're listening.. it was a compliment and I was not trying to activate your giggle button. But if it made your day, that's ok too. You should know by now, I'm a positive person. That's interesting about the quote from Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy and it makes me wonder what brain respectively is larger than the human brain in terms of over 23 billion neurons. Even the Big Brain Machine has grown upwards toward a million but getting to 23 billion will take considerable effort and an ultimately large supercomputer. Did they have the technology to measure the number of neurons in Einsteins's brain? We need to start another thread. Sorry Bruce for this small diversion of off topic.)

    As to the marketing, you may try finding distributors and dealers already in place with a network of similar products and make a deal so they can carry your product too. As I recall, this was a technique used with sales and distribution of presses, milling machines and mechanical robots. I wish you the best of luck and don't give up! There are less costly methods of marketing.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,233
    edited 2012-09-06 09:03
    Yeah, I know it was a compliment.
    ..makes me wonder what brain respectively is larger than the human brain in terms of over 23 billion neurons

    I had a thought about that recently.
    Consider the "brain" that is now constructing itself on earth where it's "neurons" are the brains of 7 billion humans and it's synapses are our computers and internet.

    The emerging intelligence of that brain constructed out of man and machine may be something we will never be able to understand or even be aware of it's existence.
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-09-06 09:42
    @idbruce Before investing loads of money in trying to market the device I think you should use the advantages of the internet to market and sell the product, create a website, get it promoted on Google ads etc.and see if it will sell well enough before going to the big boys who will take a large sum out of your sales.
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,886
    edited 2012-09-06 12:23
    idbruce wrote: »
    I now realize that I was living in a fantasy world.

    Absolutely right!

    idbruce wrote: »
    Manufacturing is the easy part.

    And the fantasy continues.....An unproven prototype built down-to-a-budget...Now expected to produce how many parts/week?

    Mickster
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-06 15:45
    @Mickster

    Put your money where your mouth is!
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2012-09-06 16:19
    @Mickster, What is your problem? This forum is not for your type AT ALL. People apply for Patents every day of the week in droves. Just because you obviously do not have the intelligence to do so yourself, there is no need for you to bash and insult those that do. I have many ideas that I would love to get patented, but the simple fact is that I do not have the finances to do so. I refuse to put my ideas out there for others to steal. At least with a Patent you have the grounds to go after someone that does infringe on them. If Patents are worthless then please explain to all of us how the US is going after China for infringement???? How did Apple win their lawsuit against Samsung? I think you need to seek the help @idbruce advised and let the good people of this FRIENDLY and powerful forum go about our business.

    Also, I have not seen ANYTHING that YOU have created.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,233
    edited 2012-09-06 16:40
    NWCCTV,
    How did Apple win their lawsuit against Samsung?

    That's what I want to know. It's absurd. If I was following correctly th court in the UK was on Samsungs side.
    Anyway, love the Samsung add here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/technology-video/8911064/Samsungs-new-advert-takes-a-deliberate-dig-at-the-Apple-iPhone-4S.html
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,114
    edited 2012-09-06 16:57
    idbruce wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest, this project has taken a turn in a direction that I did not want to go. I was hoping that I could manufacture and market my product without assistance from outside resources. I now realize that I was living in a fantasy world. Manufacturing is the easy part, but getting it to market and producing sales, well that is going to be very costly.
    Could you sell it directly to Viking Electric (MN/WI) and other such places? They could probably stock it out on the shelves in the small "shopping" area they have, and they could be picked up and marketed-word-of-mouth by bunches of electricians who need them.
    Mickster wrote: »
    And the fantasy continues.....An unproven prototype built down-to-a-budget...Now expected to produce how many parts/week?
    While I agree with you on the patent issue, he has already said he can produce numerable quantities on the CNC wire bender in his house.
    idbruce wrote: »
    Also as many of you know, I claim (and it is true) that my wire bending CNC machine will produce 25,000 units of this product per day.
    That's not a particularly small number, and with that quantity, he should be able to sell enough to buy a bigger, or multiple, CNC machines to cover what market there actually is. At this point, your arguments are appearing far more as personal attacks than actual attempts to provide technical discourse.
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,114
    edited 2012-09-06 17:01
    Heater. wrote: »
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    How did Apple win their lawsuit against Samsung?
    That's what I want to know. It's absurd. If I was following correctly, the court in the UK was on Samsung's side.
    Anyway, love the Samsung ad here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/technology-video/8911064/Samsungs-new-advert-takes-a-deliberate-dig-at-the-Apple-iPhone-4S.html
    Jurors didn't know what they were doing and did exactly what the judge said not to do.
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,886
    edited 2012-09-07 01:08
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    @Mickster, What is your problem? This forum is not for your type AT ALL. People apply for Patents every day of the week in droves. Just because you obviously do not have the intelligence to do so yourself, there is no need for you to bash and insult those that do. I have many ideas that I would love to get patented, but the simple fact is that I do not have the finances to do so. I refuse to put my ideas out there for others to steal. At least with a Patent you have the grounds to go after someone that does infringe on them. If Patents are worthless then please explain to all of us how the US is going after China for infringement???? How did Apple win their lawsuit against Samsung? I think you need to seek the help @idbruce advised and let the good people of this FRIENDLY and powerful forum go about our business.

    So, hypothetically, what if Samsung had blatantly infringed upon your patent. Right....now what? Well, I don't know you so maybe your are willing and able to dole-out millions of dollars in retainers for several year? After all, that's why you went to the trouble of obtaining a patent, right? Or did you think that the US Patent Office would jump in to protect you?

    The last that I read, Bruce wasn't able to raise the $2,000 for his Universal Product Code!
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    Also, I have not seen ANYTHING that YOU have created.

    Then I suggest you read the entire thread where you will find not only my own patents but also a link to a video of my own real machine that actually makes fuel-injector lines for big-name automotive, 24/7
    Maybe YOU can point me to a link of Bruce's machine?

    Mickster

    P.S. I only just checked the start date of this thread and coincidentally it is the date that I started development of another industry first. An Android-based wireless CNC control system for bending machines. This system is already up and producing dash-supports for one of the "big-three's" luxury vehicles and towing-bars for one of the Japanese SUV's. All OEM, not after-market. www.adaptivemotion.com
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,886
    edited 2012-09-07 02:45
    At this point, your arguments are appearing far more as personal attacks than actual attempts to provide technical discourse.

    I entered this thread as one who has been-there, done-that, etc. but because I wasn't treating Bruce's patent award like some Nobel prize, he immediately went on the offensive, suggesting that I was of lesser intelligence because I "had" to use a patent attorney whereas he'd patented his overgrown paper-clip all by himself.
    he has already said he can produce numerable quantities on the CNC wire bender in his house.

    Did I miss the video?

    I see you're in Minnesota. I don't know if you've ever toured the Polaris Industries factories but if you ever check-out the 17-axis CNC tube bender that produces the RZR, you will be looking at the machine that was designed and manufactured by the company that I founded and own. There are only two machines, one in Roseau and one in Polaris-Mexico that make the entire RZR frame. They both feature several of my patents that have been infringed-upon and were just not worth defending when my competitors have a much, much bigger war-chest than I.

    This is the point I'm making....A patent only provides you with the right to sue.

    Now, forgetting the patent issue, if I were a distributor of widgets and Bruce approached me to distribute his widget, I would be thinking:
    • I would need to sell huge volumes for this to be worthwhile
    • I would need to invest in marketing
    • Do we need product liability
    • We would need to have a website for this
    Now Bruce has claimed a production capacity of 25,000/day on a home-made piece of equipment using hobby-grade components.
    What is the longest, non-stop run that he's done
    What if Bruce becomes incapacitated, who else can operate and maintain the equipment
    Alternatively, a real wire bender with spool-feeder, straightener, cut-off unit, etc., etc., starts at around $350,000 but then a facility with 3-phase power would be required, adding to the production cost.....

    But hey, don't mind me, I've only been in the CNC bender business for 31 years, what do I know?

    Mickster
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,886
    edited 2012-09-07 03:06
    idbruce wrote: »
    @Mickster

    Put your money where your mouth is!

    Not sure I know how to respond to a master of such stunning repartee

    Please elaborate, bearing in mind my inferior intelligence :)

    Mickster
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,233
    edited 2012-09-07 03:27
    Hey, Guys,
    We come here to "get stuff done" and help others "get stuff done". Throwing rocks at each other does not help now.

    As a counterpoint to Micksters experience of large expensive industrial operations I have seen some very home made looking equipmment working 24 hours a day for years and years in factories on production lines and such. Some of it contributing the final degree of accuracy to parts for machine tools, lathes, mills etc quite critical to the quality of the finished product when it is a lathe or a mill etc.

    Some times those Heath Robinson contraptions were doing a speciallized one off task, hence the home made aspect, and sometimes they were patented. Sadly the proud inventors were not holding the patent but their employers.

    So I would not say Bruce was without a chance here. On the other hand I agree with Mickster, if big boy wants to use your patented idea what are you going to do?
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-07 05:09
    Mickster

    Are you willing to pay me $1 for every unit that I create over 20,000 in a 24 hour period? You can even watch the machine work :)

    No video needed, with your own two eyes, you can watch your money disappear.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-07 05:32
    On the other hand I agree with Mickster, if big boy wants to use your patented idea what are you going to do?

    Well let's see. If a major corporation stole my idea, I could always ask them to stop repeatedly, and wait the maximum allowable time before starting proceedings. At which point, the patent would have significant value, because infringement has occured and profit has been made.

    I could either:
    1. Sell the patent to their competitor, and let them pursuit it.
    2. Acquire a starving patent attorney to work on a contingency.
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-09-07 05:39
    There are quite a few home grown products that are selling comfortably on this site and others and for some although it would be nice to be selling their product all over the world earning "mega bucks" it's the joy of knowing people are using and enjoying something that they have invented from scratch rather than the massive profits it could be making.
    This is a community of hobbyists and although i've only been visiting this forum for a short while I am in awe of the products and ingenuity that others here have come up with.

    It was my previous post to idbruce that was anti corporate in a way by saying don't let the "big boys" take a chunk of your profits.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-09-07 05:46
    I entered this thread as one who has been-there, done-that, etc. but because I wasn't treating Bruce's patent award like some Nobel prize, he immediately went on the offensive, suggesting that I was of lesser intelligence because I "had" to use a patent attorney whereas he'd patented his overgrown paper-clip all by himself.

    That was not the situation at all. You came to thread spouting off incorrect information, and clearly did not know what you were talking about.
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