Shop Learn
Bragging Rights!!! The Wire Bending CNC and the Patent Application - Page 2 — Parallax Forums

Bragging Rights!!! The Wire Bending CNC and the Patent Application

24567

Comments

  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,893
    edited 2012-01-14 11:23
    idbruce wrote: »

    @Mickster - Yea I stated that and what is your point?

    By filing first, you just "protected" your invention from anyone else that might be planning to do the same thing.

    My patent attorney works with the automotive industry and he gave me this example; If Ford and GM both have an idea for a new product, it's especially a problem for the one who didn't file the provisional app first....why? Because the other guy has no access to what's being patented and therefore is reluctant to invest in their own design to find later that they can't use it because they infringed on the patent of the one who filed first.

    It's not as bad with patents that have already been awarded because anyone can grab a copy and figure what they need to do to avoid infringement. So it can be a 12 month head-start for he who files first.

    Just how it was explained to me.

    Mickster


  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-14 11:54
    @Mickster
    By filing first, you just "protected" your invention from anyone else that might be planning to do the same thing.

    This is an accurate statement, but it only protects you from someone else obtaining a patent on the same concept. In order to receive protection from infringement, a patent must be granted. The entire time that a patent is pending, for example when a provisional patent application is filed, the product can be copied and produced without infringing until a patent is granted. Once the patent is granted, anyone producing the product after the grant, well they are infringing and monetary damages can be awarded.

    The filing date or type of application (provisional or non-provisional) has nothing to do with infringement, only the issue date and the claims of a patent can determine infringement.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 11:43
    Hello Everyone

    I wanted to say something else concerning patents.

    There are a lot of people going around saying that patents are worthless, offer no protection, etc... I say that is nonsense and I can say this because I have been studying the patent process for approximately 30 years. For everyone that has a good idea and has considered getting a patent, I say get the patent. Your odds of hitting it BIG are definitely much better than playing the lottery. During my research throughout the years, I have seen countless patents granted to individual inventors like you and me, and a lot of those patents granted to individuals were purchased or licensed by major corporations. And believe me, those individual inventors are much better off financially then before they filed for a patent.

    If you have a very good idea, but don't have enough money for a patent attorney, then write the patent application yourself. There are plenty of good books available that will guide you through the patenting process and help you get a patent on the next BIG thing. If you have any questions about the patenting process, please feel free to ask. I am not an actual patent attorney, but I can also help to steer you in the right direction.

    Bruce
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,312
    edited 2012-01-17 12:19
    I applied for a patent, and the attorney charge me $4700 to start the paperwork, then got hired by a large corporation. He said it would be a conflict if I were his client (with my patent on a kids toy) and he were working for a large company (that makes sweetener substitute from cellulose). His last act as my pattent attorney was to advise me to start from scratch with a new attorney, preferable a large firm downtown that would cost 10 times more than a lone new grad out in the sticks. I never got a patent, or any paper work, or any money back. Also, I had spent all my money, and had to stop work on the project itself.

    The patent system as it exists today is in place to prevent innovation by individuals, and retain ownership for those with large resources. If one hase 30 years experience with the system, one might work around the system, at least for a little while. We won't know until somebody tries to take bruce's invention from him.

    My lawyer buddies said you get what you pay for, and the patent is only as good as the person how wrote it. Hopefully Bruce will show where they are wrong, and where they are right.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-01-17 12:36
    Prof B.,

    I'm glad it wasn't a conflict for the attorney to take YOUR money and then go work for someone else and not complete YOUR work.

    If you compare your experience to Bruce's advice ("go for it"), it doesn't sound like anybody has much to lose by trying to do the patent thing themself. If nothing else at the of your self-patenting experience you'd at least have a pretty complete package to turn over to an attorney.

    Once the patent application is accepted and your patent granted, I don't think the Patent Office could say "Ooops, this is worded incorrectly, you're patent is no longer valid, this big company now has the rights."
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 13:30
    @prof_braino

    That is very interesting.... I would think that you would have some recourse, which I believe would be good news. However there is also bad news associated with it. If it was a very good idea, you only have 1 year to file a patent on a given idea, and I imagine it has been over a year, in which case you could no longer file an application on that idea, certainly since the attorney is living proof that you gave him money to file an application on the idea. As for the attorney just taking your money and saying goodbye, well that is quite a different story. I don't know the circumstances, but if you paid him any monies besides an initial consultation fee, I would at least request a billing receipt to show how the money was qualified. If you do not agree with the billing or how the whole situation was handled, I would definitely contact the patent office and have a chat with them about it. Who knows, the attorney might even have to pay you for what the idea could have been potentially worth, because he robbed you of financial resources to find out for sure. You may want to refer to 35 U.S.C. 32. This SECTION references 2(b)(2)(D) of the same title, which you should also read. I am sure you could file a complaint if you feel were wrongly deprived of your money and he could lose his right to practice before the USPTO. I will see what else I can find for you.

    Bruce
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 13:43
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,336
    edited 2012-01-17 14:16
    idbruce wrote: »
    If it was a very good idea, you only have 1 year to file a patent on a given idea, and I imagine it has been over a year, in which case you could no longer file an application on that idea, certainly since the attorney is living proof that you gave him money to file an application on the idea.
    Bruce, the 1-year time period starts at the time that idea becomes public. Disclosing the idea to an attorney does not make it public, and it appears that prof_braino did not complete development of the product and sell it. So, even if it's been many years since he came up with the invention he could still patent it as long as nobody else has already patented the idea.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 14:25
    Dave

    Perhaps I do not know as much as I think I know.... I stand corrected.... Dave is correct.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,494
    edited 2012-01-17 14:31
    Dave Hein wrote: »
    Bruce, the 1-year time period starts at the time that idea becomes public. Disclosing the idea to an attorney does not make it public, and it appears that prof_braino did not complete development of the product and sell it. So, even if it's been many years since he came up with the invention he could still patent it as long as nobody else has already patented the idea.
    This is also my understanding of the 1-year limit. It's from when the invention is made public.

    Edit: Sorry Bruce, I hadn't seen your agreement.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 14:40
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,336
    edited 2012-01-17 14:44
    Bruce,

    Getting a patent is a great accomplishment, and I congratulate you on it. It is impressive that you and your colleague were able to get through all the paperwork required by the patent application process. I like the invention that you patented. It looks like something that will be really useful.

    Dave
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 14:51
    Dave

    I appreciate the congratulations... However, as far as the patent application and paperwork goes, my collegue only signed a few documents and helped draft one claim as required by patent law.

    This is my second one by the way, the first one was just a learning exercise.

    Anyhow I truly appreciate the congratulations and thanks for correcting my previous error.

    Bruce
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-17 15:00
    Just in case anyone is interested, here is a copy of my first patent. Please note the drawings with the jagged edges, this is a no-no for patent drawings to have borders, but I referred to them as fragmentary views, so the USPTO allowed them. I have never seen any other patent where this was acceptable :)

    Bruce

    EDIT: By the way, I had to work a lot harder to get this patent :(
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,893
    edited 2012-01-18 17:26
    Dave Hein wrote: »
    Getting a patent is a great accomplishment, and I congratulate you on it.
    Dave

    Simply in the interests of not wanting others to be misled....obtaining a patent is actually very easy! You would think it was on the level of a Nobel prize or an Olympic gold medal...No! Just dream up something that nobody else has bothered to patent (no guarantee that you are the inventor, BTW)...walk through the process and voila! Here's your patent sir!

    Now, does that mean that you have something commercially viable? No! The proof of the pudding is in the eating! (the correct phrase BTW)

    If so, are you "protected" in any way by the USPTO? No! It's completely up to you to go after any alleged infringement at YOUR cost and "prior art" is so easy to fake that you'll need very deep pockets to defend anything worth having.

    Anyone interested can PM me for a link to my patents which have all been infringed upon...they are a joke!

    Sincerely

    Mickster
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-18 17:30
    @Mickster
    Simply in the interests of not wanting others to be misled....obtaining a patent is actually very easy!

    Is it? Hmmm...... Okay you have spoken your mind often enough. Give me a patent number or give me an application number of something that you have submitted to the patent office without any attorney assistance.

    The proof is in the pudding.

    Bruce
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-18 17:43
    @Mickster

    I am waiting, give me some numbers

    Bruce

    1 Hour later

    ADD ON: That is what I thought. Yeah it is real "easy" to hand an attorney some money and have him do the work. :)
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,893
    edited 2012-01-19 04:46
    I am currently in the UK....GMT?

    http://www.clarion-call.org/yeshua/pudding/proof.htm

    B
    ruce, I manufacture very sophisticated CNC machine tools with up to 17 closed-loop servo axes (up to 100HP). Yes you certainly are correct...I have never attempted to obtain a patent without a patent attorney.



    Mickster
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 05:16
    @Mickster

    Okay so let me get this.

    You say:
    obtaining a patent is actually very easy!

    But you have never written one. WOW! That is really speaking from a vast amount of experience.

    Writing a patent application requires writing skills, legal skills, drafting skills, research skills, computer skills, etc... It is not "easy" by any means of the imagination, but it can be done by an intelligent and dedicated person. And then, after the application has been submitted, when it goes into the prosecution stage, and the patent examiner starts rejecting your "claims", well that certainly adds a whole other level of complexity to the process, and you better be ready for battle, performing your fights in a timely fashion.

    You say that you hold numerous patents and that you consider them worthless because it does not stop infringement. You are correct, it does not stop infringement. However, in my opinion, you are attempting to give patents a bad reputation because you are failing to exercise your rights as a patent holder. If someone infringes upon your patent, it is your obligation to pursue them. It is not the fault of the patent. If an infringer is pursued and you win your case, not only will he have to pay damages, but he will also have to pay court costs, your legal fees, etc....

    Bruce
  • bill190bill190 Posts: 769
    edited 2012-01-19 06:13
    Speaking of lawyers, I have a question...

    They call the wording in legal contracts "legalese"...

    And the wording in patents is unique to say the least! Perhaps you could call it "patentese"?

    Actually I just googled that and it is a word!

    Anyway can anyone write that wording for anyone else? For example Bruce is quite good at writing in that "language", something I and many other people would not be good at.

    So can you go out an hire a "patent writer" or whatever to write the patent for you?
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,336
    edited 2012-01-19 06:21
    There is still some work required by the inventor even with a patent attorney. However, it does make the process a lot easier when you have someone who can translate engineering documents into legalese. So, Mickster is correct to say that getting a patent is easy, if you use a patent attorney that does almost all the work. Of course, this also means that you have to pay him lots of money to do all the work.

    On the other hand, if the inventor does all the work, then it is not easy. However, I think it is still worth paying an experienced patent attorney to review the application. It will pay off years later when someone who infringes on a patent gets away with it because a claim was not worded strongly enough.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,479
    edited 2012-01-19 06:46
    "So can you go out an hire a "patent writer" or whatever to write the patent for you?" ... I believe that a Patent attorney does just that, upon which you submit your idea/concept/whatever, and he/she does the research to make sure your idea is indeed unique, and in the process through working closely with you (the "patentie"), the "patentese" dialect is applied to the official form. So, "patentese" seems to be a direct derivative of "legalese".

    ...At least after writing the bulk of the patent claim ourselves and then handing it over and working with the patent attorney, that's how it worked 15 or so years ago.

    Reference:
    http://www.google.com/patents #6287253 & #6500210
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 06:48
    @bill190
    So can you go out an hire a "patent writer" or whatever to write the patent for you?

    Bill I am unsure of the legal implications, but I doubt it. I would imagine that the writer would be open to all kinds of trouble, but I really don't know. However, with the exception of patent attorneys, the actual patent writers are the inventors. So if you have a good idea, know someone that can write patentnese, and trust this person, you could always have this person write the patent application and make them a co-inventor. Of course you would have to share the patent and profits with the writer, but then you can eliminate the high dollar patent attorney fees.

    @Dave Hein
    On the other hand, if the inventor does all the work, then it is not easy. However, I think it is still worth paying an experienced patent attorney to review the application. It will pay off years later when someone who infringes on a patent gets away with it because a claim was not worded strongly enough.

    That is good advice
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 07:03
    @Beau Schwabe

    I don't know why, but the USPTO does not offer an "image file wrapper" for either of those patents, which is odd. Anyhow, after reviewing the transaction data for patent 6500210, I can clearly see that one was a real pain, definitely not an "easy" one :)

    Bruce
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,893
    edited 2012-01-19 07:47
    idbruce wrote: »

    Writing a patent application requires writing skills, legal skills, drafting skills, research skills, computer skills, etc... It is not "easy" by any means of the imagination, but it can be done by an intelligent and dedicated person. And then, after the application has been submitted, when it goes into the prosecution stage, and the patent examiner starts rejecting your "claims", well that certainly adds a whole other level of complexity to the process, and you better be ready for battle, performing your fights in a timely fashion.

    I never did see a need to bark when I have my own dog :)
    You say that you hold numerous patents and that you consider them worthless because it does not stop infringement. You are correct, it does not stop infringement. However, in my opinion, you are attempting to give patents a bad reputation because you are failing to exercise your rights as a patent holder.
    If someone infringes upon your patent, it is your obligation to pursue them. It is not the fault of the patent. If an infringer is pursued and you win your case, not only will he have to pay damages, but he will also have to pay court costs, your legal fees, etc....

    Bruce

    It's clear you have no experience of litigation. In these matters you will not find contingency-based legal representation. Good luck with that!
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 07:52
    It's clear you have no experience of litigation.

    I have spent more time in court proceedings than I would wish upon any man.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 07:55
    Don't go away mad, just go away :)

    EDIT:
    I never did see a need to bark when I have my own dog :smile:

    LOL... I think you need a new dog, because from what you have been telling me, he is not that good of a protector :)
  • TtailspinTtailspin Posts: 1,326
    edited 2012-01-19 08:21
    Hey Bruce, I am a little late with my congratulations on your Wire Bending CNC... Congratulations, cool stuff...

    On a different note...
    If only you had a mustache, You might have use for this right now...
    robot and moustache.jpg

    If you don't want to grow a mustache, then try this one...
    ride your dog.jpg

    And if you hate dogs at all, then mayhaps this is a more generic choice when in need...
    Show you the world.jpg

    Enjoy.

    Anyways, congratulations on your patents, and Wire Bending CNC... :thumb::thumb:

    -Tommy
    498 x 700 - 53K
    263 x 360 - 86K
    500 x 454 - 59K
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,893
    edited 2012-01-19 08:21
    idbruce wrote: »
    LOL... I think you need a new dog, because from what you have been telling me, he is not that good of a protector :)

    You continue to miss the point. I don't care about patents because they are not worth it! Here is one that I didn't pursue...A bender with 21 servo axes, 8 of which are wirelessly controlled. Research indicates that this is a unique design (video has glitches).

    Fuel injector lines for one of "the big three"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tkb9oHinf1I&feature=context&context=C34c091aADOEgsToPDskJHX8ndupP7Ky0Tlx6jk9vJ
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,173
    edited 2012-01-19 08:40
    @Mickster

    Instead of showing an unsuccessful attempt to get a patent, perhaps, a successful patent grant might give you a little credability for your claims. All I know is that I am tired of wasting my time on someone who does not believe in the patent process. If you cannot provide constructive contributions to this thread, PLEASE find another location to share your interests.

    @Ttailspin

    Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Funny pics by the way :)
Sign In or Register to comment.