People have a right to be a bit concerned or peeved. Chip and Ken go dark and won't say anything about the progress of the PII at all. At least they could give us a brief progress report.
There is a tractor museum in Omaha, NB. In the early days of tractors, they used to test the PTO (Power Take Off) capability by driving a generator. Of course, they needed a load.
Lack of report probably means there is no idea when it is coming. This is the ground hogs day movie. I would pull the subsection for the P2 if it were me and get rid of this stigma that is not a good thing for Parallax. People stumbling over here seeing this discussion as their first impression of the company is not good.
Lack of report probably means there is no idea when it is coming. This is the ground hogs day movie. I would pull the subsection for the P2 if it were me and get rid of this stigma that is not a good thing for Parallax. People stumbling over here seeing this discussion as their first impression of the company is not good.
I'm not sure Parallax ever promised a report at the end of spring. That was just a date generated by a forum member based on various other statements that probably also weren't firm commitments. They may not feel that they owe us an update right now.
The individual SDRAM chips, from SDR through DDR3, used in PCs over the years are 8 bits wide typically. So, no problem having a smaller data bus size just by using a single RAM chip.
AFAIK, this is true of the chips used on DIMMs where the data lines are are connected in parallel to create a wider bus. On the high performance SoCs, the chips use a wider data bus (16 to 32-bit) and each ram chip is addressed individually dictated by how many memory chips the SoC can support.
I'm not sure Parallax ever promised a report at the end of spring. That was just a date generated by a forum member based on various other statements that probably also weren't firm commitments. They may not feel that they owe us an update right now.
Parallax didn't promise anything by the end of spring. They only hinted and hoped that certain things would happen by the end of spring. On January 28 Ken posted that they were guessing that a "big gathering" would be held at Parallax headquarters "by the Fall". The 6-month countdown will start when
- Propeller 2 code is running in full on the Parallax FPGA 1-2-3 Development Board
- Manual layout of Propeller 2 is done by Treehouse Designs
Extrapolating backwards implies that these milestones would be achieved sometime in Spring. It's doubtful that the big gathering would be held around Thanksgiving or just before Christmas, so the Fall date would have been sometime between the end of September to the beginning of November. This implies an FPGA image by the end of March to the beginning of May.
Chip said in an interview on February 4 that he thought an FPGA image would be available in about 4 months. That implies June 4.
Chip said in a post on April 7 that he hoped for an FPGA image in 2 months. That implies June 7.
I picked the end of Spring as a date that encompassed all three hopes and guesses. I sincerely thought that Parallax would post something before the end of Spring, and was disappointed that they didn't even post a brief progress report.
I was addressing that smaller pin counts are commonly available, since that seemed to have been in question and you hadn't made it clear in your earlier post.
All I was trying to say is that it may not be necessary to accommodate all the address and data pins when attaching this hypothetical future Prop-X to some SoC's RAM interface, as well as the fact that SoCs tend to use wider data bus sizes. It had nothing to do with attaching the P-X to RAM chips itself.
All I asked for was a guestimated date of completion. If they can't do that because they don't know themselves, which I suspect, that's fine too. Just put the PII in the TBD category and call it a night.
Until they release something, there are lots of other new micros being released that bear investigating.
The core basis for the design changed. Significantly. It's gonna take a bit to work through that.
What you don't know is whether it's can't or won't. Both are valid at this time.
Truth is, the investigating will happen or not whether or not we have a more definitive status, and that decision is on all of us and our individual goals.
Some time is going to need to pass. I suggest you pass it having fun!
What I find rahter funny/absurd is the response that Parallax doesn't 'owe' anyone here anything.
To my mind, thats a cop-out and even, a slap at quite a number of people who are/have given Parallax quite a lot of sweat equity.
Go back last year or earlier this year, and look at all the 'Challenges' Parallax have put up, and all the man hours of work people have put in trying to make the Prop do all sorts of things. Just one example is how many people put a fair amount of work into getting the Prop to be useable from an iPad, etc?
There also seems to be an expectation that a fair number here are expected to be purchasing a 1-2-3 dev kit to help Parallax validate the PII.
Parallax is an unusual company, and in many ways just comes across as the underdog you want to root for.
But they also aren't shy about asking for people to volunteer their time/$$ to Parallax's benefit.
The excuses for not giving regular monthly updates on progress were never valid, nor would they be accepted by any company/organization on the planet. Heck, my nephew with a lemonade stand last summer was able to give a pretty cogent financial update every so often when I saw him...
Sadlly, it seems like no one at Parallax could find 30 minutes a month to get a basic status update and post it to the web for the Prop-heads.
Or, the community here just doesn't rate that amount of effort.
"All I was trying to say is that it may not be necessary to accommodate all the address and data pins when attaching this hypothetical future Prop-X to some SoC's RAM interface"
We're talking about the RAM interface to the RAM chips, doesn't really matter what other controllers are using them. I only gave PCs as an example because PCs have been known to use such RAM chips and therefore such chips did/do exist in the cheapo bracket.
... Go back last year or earlier this year, and look at all the 'Challenges' Parallax have put up, and all the man hours of work people have put in trying to make the Prop do all sorts of things. ... Parallax is an unusual company, and in many ways just comes across as the underdog you want to root for. ... Sadlly, it seems like no one at Parallax could find 30 minutes a month to get a basic status update....
@koehler, I find your post perfectly reasonable and respectful, with a well laid out argument. You've put into words what at least some of us are thinking. And your post is right on topic in a thread entitled "Prop-2 Release Date and Price." Far from whining, you seem to be providing an impassioned plea for Parallax to do what most of us tend to believe that they already want to do: keep us in the loop to the extent possible. Obviously, you count yourself among those who are rooting for this "underdog," as you put it. Though people will understandably make various defenses for Parallax, I feel that Parallax would only add to its standing by continuing the trend it established of keeping us informed. At any rate, I'm sure that Parallax will continue to be a company that prioritizes integrity first, maybe innovation second, and perhaps profit third (or something like that).
I think it's quite possible that a monthly or even bi-weekly report could create a kind of positive pressure to help move things along. It seems so important to stay on schedule, such that the window of opportunity is not lost. To be clear, this would entail just providing updates, without sticking around to address responses to or questions about the updates. In both Chip and Ken's last updates, I don't recall them being dragged into the forum afterwards to field a ton of questions about the updates. Why not schedule such updates so folks would know when to look? Even if there were no significant progress to report on, at least members would know the status. That seems like a reasonable request to me, just like it's reasonable to ask forum members for advice or voluntary assistance on occasion. These are just requests, not demands.
I haven't done the math, but forum activity centered around the Prop 1 seems to be on the downward side of the peak. It's still a great chip and likely will be for some time to come. But it's only natural for us to be interested in its successor, particularly when we were given the privilege of listing desirable features. But I've seen at least two posts on the forum suggesting that Parallax abandon the plans to produce new silicon, relying on FPGA versions only. That's potentially scary. But based on what Chip and Ken have shared and the progress and investment to date, I believe that there will be a P2 chip (in addition to an FPGA version). From a business standpoint, though, I do realize that things could happen to put it out of reach. If that were to happen--which I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't--one could only hope that the price of FPGA chips would fall dramatically.
Lastly, I hope that forum members can tolerate a variety of comments here. I think it's good to try to look for things in the posts of others with which one can agree before giving another viewpoint. And I hope that we can keep in mind the following instructions culled from the forum rules, "Be polite: Polite lively debate is welcome. ‘Flaming,’ rude behavior, and personal insults are not productive and will not be tolerated.... Copying and quoting posts: ... Do not quote someone as a form of harassment, or to otherwise belittle the poster. ... Negative discussion of other members: Do not ridicule other members of the Parallax Discussion Forums or otherwise make them feel uncomfortable."
What I find rahter funny/absurd is the response that Parallax doesn't 'owe' anyone here anything.
To my mind, thats a cop-out and even, a slap at quite a number of people who are/have given Parallax quite a lot of sweat equity.
<br><br>My message has raised concerns from Parallax. My criticism is being
seen as an attack on the company and not as constructive, so I'm retracting the entire message in addition to all of my recent
posts. I may also consider resigning from the forums completely, but
I'm not a fan of "heat of the moment decisions", so I'll leave things
alone for now.<br><br><br><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Thank you @koehler!
The 95% of the propeller library of objects comes from those who have invested hours (some of us years) of work into the Propeller 1. Projects which have been designed to get the word out, blogs, videos, ... and the list goes on...
Come on Parallax, let's step up to the plate here. My own post count shows an investment of 10% (if I live to be 100) of my life invested in the underdog. It's time I'll never get back. I still feel it's been a good investment, but I also feel that those of us who have made significant investment in Parallax and it's products deserve better than they have gotten in regard to Prop 2.
I've all but, given up on the next chip. If it still happens I'll never be more happy to be wrong, but for now I'll leave you with a little Dr. Seuss.. "Don't be sad that it is over, be glad that it happened at all."
Sadly, it seems like no one at Parallax could find 30 minutes a month to get a basic status update and post it to the web for the Prop-heads.
Or, the community here just doesn't rate that amount of effort.
It is my impression that Ken would like to do just that. Perhaps he is as frustrated as some of you. My own frustration is held in check by the panoply of subsidized boards available. Amazing what you can get for a few bucks!
Parallax is great! It is particularly frustrating to have run P2 images... I've resolved to just let it all breathe for a while. Chip works the way he works, and that's not always a linear, structured thing. I'm quite sure this is why we aren't seeing progress. And I also see that difference as part of what made the P1 what it is. He does what he does how he does it.
If I go and judge that, I end up in a bad place. So I'm not. And I'm not because I really like Chip, and I'm confident we will once again have really fun times in the future. Times I don't want tainted by an ugly haul to get there.
I do believe Ken has some frustrations, and I also believe he's done what he can to get ready and help. We know Chip is working with some others to get this thing done and when it's done be viable for manufacturing too. I very strongly suspect that has impacted some design plans and that's taking some thought. Comes down to the process and power.
Maybe that process / power equation got changed?
Above all, I believe Chip and maybe Ken have moved to, "get to an image" mode, before anything else is said. Chip popped up a while back on USB instruction matters. So he's working. It's not like it's all just collecting dust.
One other thing about Chip I've noted and that may be worth some consideration: He thinks very deeply, connecting this to that to that to that over there, and when he does that kind of thinking, it's nothing for a good long while, then a complex, beautiful result comes fairly easily. So it's not always little, incremental steps.
My own personal speculation is he's in one of those right now attempting to unify some aspects of the design in a lean, power efficient, simple way that will still allow HUBEXE to make some sense.
A while back, right when we were in the thick of the last image, he remarked: "I'll never be as good at this as I am right now." and that remark isn't about his ability to do this stuff. It's about that image, his mental map of it, and what that means for working with it. Getting to that point took a good long time, but at that point, things can happen fairly quickly. Witness the tasking, etc... that got done.
Maybe that helps to explain where I believe things are at right now.
But we need to have fun, we need to move on our own goals, etc... too. I've not put many of my own on the P2. I know there are a fair number of things I want to do, given the result is anything like what we got to jam on for a while. While this waiting goes on, I look back at all the good times on P1, and the skills I have today that I didn't have back then. Worth it.
As far as the community goes, I've very strong and mixed feelings about it all. Right now, we are smaller and less active --at least Parallax related active. During the P2 image time, I was both amazed and extremely frustrated over how that open process went. We all want stuff, and that played out in some beautiful ways as well as some crappy ways. That exercise generated a lot of great ideas.
But, it also generated a lot of risks and problems too.
Honestly, I think Chip saw some really good stuff that he wants to carry forward. HUBEXE, the math, etc... I think there was also a lot of stuff that doesn't need to carry forward, and now that all has played out, staying very quiet means doing what it takes to get to an established image. Last time, it took a while.
We may think this is a simple derivative, or that chunks of the other design can be dropped in, etc... And the speed at which things happened biases that too. But, we don't think much of the wait leading up to that time, and it's just like the wait on this one, and that wait is what it takes to get the ideas melded into a CPU and for Chip to have most of it in his head.
While we wait on this, I personally believe some encouraging type pressure is good. But I don't believe disparaging type pressure is good, and that's where the tone of my posts came from. For all I have seen during these fun Parallax times, I know the people are great and that they really do care and they want the same things we want. And I've seen Parallax isn't just an ordinary company. It's small. Family. They all want to continue to do what they do and they want to share it with us, but only if it's meaningful to share and not doing more harm than good, because there isn't a person in the building that wants harm.
So what to do?
I really have no problem with the "say nothing right now" approach given how Chip works and all the dynamics around the task at hand. Just look at the one little bit of detail we got, and the dialog around it. So many voices clamoring for this path and that one, minimums needed, wants, needs, etc... Sometimes people go off and do a lot of work based on one of those little details. And it's all done with good intent, don't get me wrong. But, that also makes it hard to have a dialog too. A single word might trigger all sorts of stuff and as things progress, that stuff could be rendered moot, leaving bad vibes playing about too.
We are smaller and less active for bad vibes as much as we are for the needing to advance it all. And that is worth thinking about, isn't it?
Given all of that, I'm in "make sure to have fun" mode. I get less time for this stuff right now, and for me that has been a godsend. The time I do get is either for something real and I sometimes can use a P1 for that, or it's fun time, and since there is less of it, I'm wanting it to be fun time more than I would have in the past.
My one worry is time overall. Some of us have a lot of it, some of us might not. Above all, I don't care what or how Parallax does this, only that they do put their best effort and intent on minimizing required time. It's hard not knowing the amount of time. But it would be harder to know that time was extended out of hand at this stage too.
...which should explain the rest of my post connotations. I want it to happen, and positive is the very best contribution I can provide at this time.
It's been said, "Parallax owes us..." True! But we also owe one another too. Now is the time to be good humans all around. When we can do something, you can bet your Smile Parallax will put it out there, and you can also bet a lot of us are there, ready to contribute too. The better we can make this time, the more potent all of that will be.
Do I detect a little frustration or impatience here?
Poor old Chip has a whole new vision in mind after the last PII "hot" debacle. He sets about redesigning the whole thing. At the same time there is a whole new process technology to deal with, no doubt a bunch of new tools, and then all the issues that come with working with whatever company is tackling the layout brings.
And we ask "How long?".
I'm sure if it had all been done before the answer would be clear. But then if it had all been done before there would be no point.
Sure I feel the frustration and impatience, but as I always tell my boss when he asks about schedules, I have no idea, I have not done this before, neither has anyone else in the company.
Love this: "but as I always tell my boss when he asks about schedules, I have no idea, I have not done this before, neither has anyone else in the company. "
Technical issues which will always come up aside, I think Parallax has not helped itself by going dark as it has.
My impression of the forums and number of online users mirrors yours, I've thought I noticed a decline on both the P/PII boards, as well as some people who seem to have disappeared for good.
The phone and now auto markets seem to be driving ARM multicore harder than ever. Atmel is on the chopping block, and Microchip's financials have continued to surge.
With that in play, not too mention Arduino and RPi continued success in the Maker and Education spaces, I do see Parallax's niche as logically having to shrink.
Now that I think about it, I think we are in the midst of one of the large-scale changes that always seem to take a while to fully realize are actually happening now, and not something that is going to happen in the future.
FPGA players are being M&A'd, uC Design & Fab are being sold, markets are being absorbed...
Unfortunately, logical thought here is only sometimes appreciated.
Some seem to only be driven by the desire to have new shiny, my precious.
I'd like to see Parallax get back to being more respectful and responsive to the community that supports them far more than just as a 'rah-rah' fan base.
And maybe, pick a market like the auto sector that plays to their multi-core strengths and try a small real world market expansion before once again tilting at windmills and trying to set the uC market on its head.
This might make more decisions like a software license vs headcount moot.
@koehler, I find your post perfectly reasonable and respectful, with a well laid out argument. You've put into words what at least some of us are thinking. And your post is right on topic in a thread entitled "Prop-2 Release Date and Price." Far from whining, you seem to be providing an impassioned plea for Parallax to do what most of us tend to believe that they already want to do: keep us in the loop to the extent possible. Obviously, you count yourself among those who are rooting for this "underdog," as you put it. Though people will understandably make various defenses for Parallax, I feel that Parallax would only add to its standing by continuing the trend it established of keeping us informed. At any rate, I'm sure that Parallax will continue to be a company that prioritizes integrity first, maybe innovation second, and perhaps profit third (or something like that).
I think it's quite possible that a monthly or even bi-weekly report could create a kind of positive pressure to help move things along. It seems so important to stay on schedule, such that the window of opportunity is not lost. To be clear, this would entail just providing updates, without sticking around to address responses to or questions about the updates. In both Chip and Ken's last updates, I don't recall them being dragged into the forum afterwards to field a ton of questions about the updates. Why not schedule such updates so folks would know when to look? Even if there were no significant progress to report on, at least members would know the status. That seems like a reasonable request to me, just like it's reasonable to ask forum members for advice or voluntary assistance on occasion. These are just requests, not demands.
I haven't done the math, but forum activity centered around the Prop 1 seems to be on the downward side of the peak. It's still a great chip and likely will be for some time to come. But it's only natural for us to be interested in its successor, particularly when we were given the privilege of listing desirable features. But I've seen at least two posts on the forum suggesting that Parallax abandon the plans to produce new silicon, relying on FPGA versions only. That's potentially scary. But based on what Chip and Ken have shared and the progress and investment to date, I believe that there will be a P2 chip (in addition to an FPGA version). From a business standpoint, though, I do realize that things could happen to put it out of reach. If that were to happen--which I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't--one could only hope that the price of FPGA chips would fall dramatically.
Lastly, I hope that forum members can tolerate a variety of comments here. I think it's good to try to look for things in the posts of others with which one can agree before giving another viewpoint. And I hope that we can keep in mind the following instructions culled from the forum rules, "Be polite: Polite lively debate is welcome. Flaming, rude behavior, and personal insults are not productive and will not be tolerated.... Copying and quoting posts: ... Do not quote someone as a form of harassment, or to otherwise belittle the poster. ... Negative discussion of other members: Do not ridicule other members of the Parallax Discussion Forums or otherwise make them feel uncomfortable."
I didn't see anything wrong with your post, though I did sort of skim it:)
Parallax is great! It is particularly frustrating to have run P2 images... I've resolved to just let it all breathe for a while. Chip works the way he works, and that's not always a linear, structured thing. I'm quite sure this is why we aren't seeing progress. And I also see that difference as part of what made the P1 what it is. He does what he does how he does it.
If I go and judge that, I end up in a bad place. So I'm not. And I'm not because I really like Chip, and I'm confident we will once again have really fun times in the future. Times I don't want tainted by an ugly haul to get there.
I do believe Ken has some frustrations, and I also believe he's done what he can to get ready and help. We know Chip is working with some others to get this thing done and when it's done be viable for manufacturing too. I very strongly suspect that has impacted some design plans and that's taking some thought. Comes down to the process and power.
Maybe that process / power equation got changed?
I think most everyone would agree with the above.
My point is, it should be regardless of Chip's work style, batten down the hatches, silent running, etc.
Ken should have no problem talking with the Founder/Head of R&D/Brother/(His Boss?) once a month to get the low down and simply give the community a rundown on how things are going with at least a modicum of detail.
Don't need to know the details so much as what is complete, what is not, has feature set changed, etc. Really, this isn't even like a PM's job, just the same 5-10 questions every month or couple of weeks that would show the state of the project.
It not the progress or lack of it, even with external vendors assisting, its clear its all primarily on Chip's shoulders.
Its the impression that you are blowing off of your most committed fans and supporters with excuses about lack of time, bunker mentatilty, etc.
Above all, I believe Chip and maybe Ken have moved to, "get to an image" mode, before anything else is said. Chip popped up a while back on USB instruction matters. So he's working. It's not like it's all just collecting dust.
Could be, however in this I am not fauling Chip. Ken or his delegate should have seen to the care and feeding of a rare earth resource, its supportive, buying customers.
Thats the business side of the house. Unless the forum really makes up nothing but a fraction of revenue, and isn't worth the effort.
As far as the community goes, I've very strong and mixed feelings about it all. Right now, we are smaller and less active --at least Parallax related active. During the P2 image time, I was both amazed and extremely frustrated over how that open process went. We all want stuff, and that played out in some beautiful ways as well as some crappy ways. That exercise generated a lot of great ideas.
.....
While we wait on this, I personally believe some encouraging type pressure is good. But I don't believe disparaging type pressure is good, and that's where the tone of my posts came from. For all I have seen during these fun Parallax times, I know the people are great and that they really do care and they want the same things we want. And I've seen Parallax isn't just an ordinary company. It's small. Family. They all want to continue to do what they do and they want to share it with us, but only if it's meaningful to share and not doing more harm than good, because there isn't a person in the building that wants harm.
Agreed. Everyone wants the best for Parallax, and their success flows downhill with many benefits for all involved.
However I don't view my comments quite as 'disparaging' as much as my humble opinion on how they have gotten off-track by running silent. An incredible amount of time could have been saved, and/or more productively put to use by all, if they would just give regular updates. Progress will move ahead, stall and surge, thats normal. Communicating to its base on a regular basis would most likely be far more useful to Parallax as some here might be able to give some critical insight/suggestions to Chip, vs not communicating and having that 'resource' waste its time in useless and far afield discussion.
Not communicating is a 2-for-1, deincentivizes and wastes free potential SME resources.
So what to do?
I really have no problem with the "say nothing right now" approach given how Chip works and all the dynamics around the task at hand. Just look at the one little bit of detail we got, and the dialog around it. So many voices clamoring for this path and that one, minimums needed, wants, needs, etc... Sometimes people go off and do a lot of work based on one of those little details. And it's all done with good intent, don't get me wrong. But, that also makes it hard to have a dialog too. A single word might trigger all sorts of stuff and as things progress, that stuff could be rendered moot, leaving bad vibes playing about too.
Not to beat the dead horse, but Chip doesn't need be the one to post updates.
We are smaller and less active for bad vibes as much as we are for the needing to advance it all. And that is worth thinking about, isn't it?
Given all of that, I'm in "make sure to have fun" mode. I get less time for this stuff right now, and for me that has been a godsend. The time I do get is either for something real and I sometimes can use a P1 for that, or it's fun time, and since there is less of it, I'm wanting it to be fun time more than I would have in the past.
My one worry is time overall. Some of us have a lot of it, some of us might not. Above all, I don't care what or how Parallax does this, only that they do put their best effort and intent on minimizing required time. It's hard not knowing the amount of time. But it would be harder to know that time was extended out of hand at this stage too.
I hear what you are saying, however that is also from a strictly personal point of view. What about those here who are seriously looking at the PII for future product use?
Not knowing anything because Parallax is running-silent is probably more of a disincentive to stay with Parallax. If I were a Manf. customer and had a P1 project, with a P2 project on the horizon, I would see this silent running as more likely proof that there is a FUBAR situation that Parallax does not want to communicate precisely because the production date has slipped way out.
Whereas, if I had seen regular updates on progress/status, I'd probably be inclined to weather the delay if technically possible since I would not only have seen the prior progress, but also how they had handled setbacks, and be able to compare that to their new target date and be able to feel comfortable that they were realistic.
End result is most likely keeping a customer, vs 'hoping' a customer could be strung along in the dark through all the delays.
...which should explain the rest of my post connotations. I want it to happen, and positive is the very best contribution I can provide at this time.
It's been said, "Parallax owes us..." True! But we also owe one another too. Now is the time to be good humans all around. When we can do something, you can bet your Smile Parallax will put it out there, and you can also bet a lot of us are there, ready to contribute too. The better we can make this time, the more potent all of that will be.
Ending on a highnote, someone's been taking class?
Again, I just thought I'd post my opinion, and thats all they are. I think at least a few others probably agree with some of my points, as I think they are logical and not meant to berate Parallax.
Its just the longer this goes on, the more I think it starts to appear as either FUBAR'd with a low-profile running mode, or its just taken for granted that the fans will always be there in the same numbers to provide useful S/W Dev support and $$/Validation work.
Would love to see it get back to the old Parallax mode.
My comment was more a quip to someone who replied, don't draw conclusions that aren't there.
1, 2, and 3 don't pertain.
I am frustrated as some here, though not nearly as frustrated as many others, and certainly not as much as others who have simply left.
If Chip/Ken were to pop-up in the very next post and announce that the P2 would be in production and shipping by Chipmas I would be thrilled. Likewise, if he posted that they were slowly grinding through it with vendor assistance and a mid-2016 release was realistically expected, I'd be disappointed somewhat, but happy to get an idea of progress and plans.
To whit, its not the progress or lack of it that I find disappointing. Its the change in tack insofar as keeping its 'community' informed, vs treating us like mushrooms, in the dark.
And to be frank the excuses for doing so are almost proof that this 'community' existing more in the mind of its members than Parallax'.
Example- I've a brother who is CEO of a bank on the other side of the continent, and while brothers not especially close knit.
However even with both of us working crazy hours, in different timezones, and in completely different fields, I know for a fact that I could call him up every 2 weeks or month and get 10 minutes of his time to get a rundown on the current financial state of his bank, expansion plans, overall debt & P/E, etc, etc.
So, Parallax, Ken, 5-10 other Engineers, and no one can keep Parallax's much bally-hooed 'community' in the loop on its most expensive project to date, because Chip is in bunker-mode?
I know you are pretty darn sharp, and are/have worked as a real professional Engineer. Do those 'excuses' really sound plausible to you?
Comments
People have a right to be a bit concerned or peeved. Chip and Ken go dark and won't say anything about the progress of the PII at all. At least they could give us a brief progress report.
Do what? What am I looking at there? Is that the biggest resistor I have ever seen?
Biggest one *I* have ever seen.
AFAIK, this is true of the chips used on DIMMs where the data lines are are connected in parallel to create a wider bus. On the high performance SoCs, the chips use a wider data bus (16 to 32-bit) and each ram chip is addressed individually dictated by how many memory chips the SoC can support.
- Propeller 2 code is running in full on the Parallax FPGA 1-2-3 Development Board
- Manual layout of Propeller 2 is done by Treehouse Designs
Extrapolating backwards implies that these milestones would be achieved sometime in Spring. It's doubtful that the big gathering would be held around Thanksgiving or just before Christmas, so the Fall date would have been sometime between the end of September to the beginning of November. This implies an FPGA image by the end of March to the beginning of May.
Chip said in an interview on February 4 that he thought an FPGA image would be available in about 4 months. That implies June 4.
Chip said in a post on April 7 that he hoped for an FPGA image in 2 months. That implies June 7.
I picked the end of Spring as a date that encompassed all three hopes and guesses. I sincerely thought that Parallax would post something before the end of Spring, and was disappointed that they didn't even post a brief progress report.
We know the boards are looking good, and Chip popped up a while back telling us he has some basics done.
Telling us more is done without context, like how much more needs to be done, isn't good for much.
I bet we get some of that stuff in due time.
All I was trying to say is that it may not be necessary to accommodate all the address and data pins when attaching this hypothetical future Prop-X to some SoC's RAM interface, as well as the fact that SoCs tend to use wider data bus sizes. It had nothing to do with attaching the P-X to RAM chips itself.
All I asked for was a guestimated date of completion. If they can't do that because they don't know themselves, which I suspect, that's fine too. Just put the PII in the TBD category and call it a night.
Until they release something, there are lots of other new micros being released that bear investigating.
The core basis for the design changed. Significantly. It's gonna take a bit to work through that.
What you don't know is whether it's can't or won't. Both are valid at this time.
Truth is, the investigating will happen or not whether or not we have a more definitive status, and that decision is on all of us and our individual goals.
Some time is going to need to pass. I suggest you pass it having fun!
To my mind, thats a cop-out and even, a slap at quite a number of people who are/have given Parallax quite a lot of sweat equity.
Go back last year or earlier this year, and look at all the 'Challenges' Parallax have put up, and all the man hours of work people have put in trying to make the Prop do all sorts of things. Just one example is how many people put a fair amount of work into getting the Prop to be useable from an iPad, etc?
There also seems to be an expectation that a fair number here are expected to be purchasing a 1-2-3 dev kit to help Parallax validate the PII.
Parallax is an unusual company, and in many ways just comes across as the underdog you want to root for.
But they also aren't shy about asking for people to volunteer their time/$$ to Parallax's benefit.
The excuses for not giving regular monthly updates on progress were never valid, nor would they be accepted by any company/organization on the planet. Heck, my nephew with a lemonade stand last summer was able to give a pretty cogent financial update every so often when I saw him...
Sadlly, it seems like no one at Parallax could find 30 minutes a month to get a basic status update and post it to the web for the Prop-heads.
Or, the community here just doesn't rate that amount of effort.
Stop crying. We'll get our updates when Chip has resurfaced.
"All I was trying to say is that it may not be necessary to accommodate all the address and data pins when attaching this hypothetical future Prop-X to some SoC's RAM interface"
I believe that's the part you meant to bold
@koehler, I find your post perfectly reasonable and respectful, with a well laid out argument. You've put into words what at least some of us are thinking. And your post is right on topic in a thread entitled "Prop-2 Release Date and Price." Far from whining, you seem to be providing an impassioned plea for Parallax to do what most of us tend to believe that they already want to do: keep us in the loop to the extent possible. Obviously, you count yourself among those who are rooting for this "underdog," as you put it. Though people will understandably make various defenses for Parallax, I feel that Parallax would only add to its standing by continuing the trend it established of keeping us informed. At any rate, I'm sure that Parallax will continue to be a company that prioritizes integrity first, maybe innovation second, and perhaps profit third (or something like that).
I think it's quite possible that a monthly or even bi-weekly report could create a kind of positive pressure to help move things along. It seems so important to stay on schedule, such that the window of opportunity is not lost. To be clear, this would entail just providing updates, without sticking around to address responses to or questions about the updates. In both Chip and Ken's last updates, I don't recall them being dragged into the forum afterwards to field a ton of questions about the updates. Why not schedule such updates so folks would know when to look? Even if there were no significant progress to report on, at least members would know the status. That seems like a reasonable request to me, just like it's reasonable to ask forum members for advice or voluntary assistance on occasion. These are just requests, not demands.
I haven't done the math, but forum activity centered around the Prop 1 seems to be on the downward side of the peak. It's still a great chip and likely will be for some time to come. But it's only natural for us to be interested in its successor, particularly when we were given the privilege of listing desirable features. But I've seen at least two posts on the forum suggesting that Parallax abandon the plans to produce new silicon, relying on FPGA versions only. That's potentially scary. But based on what Chip and Ken have shared and the progress and investment to date, I believe that there will be a P2 chip (in addition to an FPGA version). From a business standpoint, though, I do realize that things could happen to put it out of reach. If that were to happen--which I'm cautiously optimistic that it won't--one could only hope that the price of FPGA chips would fall dramatically.
Lastly, I hope that forum members can tolerate a variety of comments here. I think it's good to try to look for things in the posts of others with which one can agree before giving another viewpoint. And I hope that we can keep in mind the following instructions culled from the forum rules, "Be polite: Polite lively debate is welcome. ‘Flaming,’ rude behavior, and personal insults are not productive and will not be tolerated.... Copying and quoting posts: ... Do not quote someone as a form of harassment, or to otherwise belittle the poster. ... Negative discussion of other members: Do not ridicule other members of the Parallax Discussion Forums or otherwise make them feel uncomfortable."
seen as an attack on the company and not as constructive, so I'm retracting the entire message in addition to all of my recent
posts. I may also consider resigning from the forums completely, but
I'm not a fan of "heat of the moment decisions", so I'll leave things
alone for now.<br><br><br><span style="text-decoration: line-through;">Thank you @koehler!
The 95% of the propeller library of objects comes from those who have invested hours (some of us years) of work into the Propeller 1. Projects which have been designed to get the word out, blogs, videos, ... and the list goes on...
Come on Parallax, let's step up to the plate here. My own post count shows an investment of 10% (if I live to be 100) of my life invested in the underdog. It's time I'll never get back. I still feel it's been a good investment, but I also feel that those of us who have made significant investment in Parallax and it's products deserve better than they have gotten in regard to Prop 2.
I've all but, given up on the next chip. If it still happens I'll never be more happy to be wrong, but for now I'll leave you with a little Dr. Seuss.. "Don't be sad that it is over, be glad that it happened at all."
Jeff</span>
It is my impression that Ken would like to do just that. Perhaps he is as frustrated as some of you. My own frustration is held in check by the panoply of subsidized boards available. Amazing what you can get for a few bucks!
Parallax is great! It is particularly frustrating to have run P2 images... I've resolved to just let it all breathe for a while. Chip works the way he works, and that's not always a linear, structured thing. I'm quite sure this is why we aren't seeing progress. And I also see that difference as part of what made the P1 what it is. He does what he does how he does it.
If I go and judge that, I end up in a bad place. So I'm not. And I'm not because I really like Chip, and I'm confident we will once again have really fun times in the future. Times I don't want tainted by an ugly haul to get there.
I do believe Ken has some frustrations, and I also believe he's done what he can to get ready and help. We know Chip is working with some others to get this thing done and when it's done be viable for manufacturing too. I very strongly suspect that has impacted some design plans and that's taking some thought. Comes down to the process and power.
Maybe that process / power equation got changed?
Above all, I believe Chip and maybe Ken have moved to, "get to an image" mode, before anything else is said. Chip popped up a while back on USB instruction matters. So he's working. It's not like it's all just collecting dust.
One other thing about Chip I've noted and that may be worth some consideration: He thinks very deeply, connecting this to that to that to that over there, and when he does that kind of thinking, it's nothing for a good long while, then a complex, beautiful result comes fairly easily. So it's not always little, incremental steps.
My own personal speculation is he's in one of those right now attempting to unify some aspects of the design in a lean, power efficient, simple way that will still allow HUBEXE to make some sense.
A while back, right when we were in the thick of the last image, he remarked: "I'll never be as good at this as I am right now." and that remark isn't about his ability to do this stuff. It's about that image, his mental map of it, and what that means for working with it. Getting to that point took a good long time, but at that point, things can happen fairly quickly. Witness the tasking, etc... that got done.
Maybe that helps to explain where I believe things are at right now.
But we need to have fun, we need to move on our own goals, etc... too. I've not put many of my own on the P2. I know there are a fair number of things I want to do, given the result is anything like what we got to jam on for a while. While this waiting goes on, I look back at all the good times on P1, and the skills I have today that I didn't have back then. Worth it.
As far as the community goes, I've very strong and mixed feelings about it all. Right now, we are smaller and less active --at least Parallax related active. During the P2 image time, I was both amazed and extremely frustrated over how that open process went. We all want stuff, and that played out in some beautiful ways as well as some crappy ways. That exercise generated a lot of great ideas.
But, it also generated a lot of risks and problems too.
Honestly, I think Chip saw some really good stuff that he wants to carry forward. HUBEXE, the math, etc... I think there was also a lot of stuff that doesn't need to carry forward, and now that all has played out, staying very quiet means doing what it takes to get to an established image. Last time, it took a while.
We may think this is a simple derivative, or that chunks of the other design can be dropped in, etc... And the speed at which things happened biases that too. But, we don't think much of the wait leading up to that time, and it's just like the wait on this one, and that wait is what it takes to get the ideas melded into a CPU and for Chip to have most of it in his head.
While we wait on this, I personally believe some encouraging type pressure is good. But I don't believe disparaging type pressure is good, and that's where the tone of my posts came from. For all I have seen during these fun Parallax times, I know the people are great and that they really do care and they want the same things we want. And I've seen Parallax isn't just an ordinary company. It's small. Family. They all want to continue to do what they do and they want to share it with us, but only if it's meaningful to share and not doing more harm than good, because there isn't a person in the building that wants harm.
So what to do?
I really have no problem with the "say nothing right now" approach given how Chip works and all the dynamics around the task at hand. Just look at the one little bit of detail we got, and the dialog around it. So many voices clamoring for this path and that one, minimums needed, wants, needs, etc... Sometimes people go off and do a lot of work based on one of those little details. And it's all done with good intent, don't get me wrong. But, that also makes it hard to have a dialog too. A single word might trigger all sorts of stuff and as things progress, that stuff could be rendered moot, leaving bad vibes playing about too.
We are smaller and less active for bad vibes as much as we are for the needing to advance it all. And that is worth thinking about, isn't it?
Given all of that, I'm in "make sure to have fun" mode. I get less time for this stuff right now, and for me that has been a godsend. The time I do get is either for something real and I sometimes can use a P1 for that, or it's fun time, and since there is less of it, I'm wanting it to be fun time more than I would have in the past.
My one worry is time overall. Some of us have a lot of it, some of us might not. Above all, I don't care what or how Parallax does this, only that they do put their best effort and intent on minimizing required time. It's hard not knowing the amount of time. But it would be harder to know that time was extended out of hand at this stage too.
...which should explain the rest of my post connotations. I want it to happen, and positive is the very best contribution I can provide at this time.
It's been said, "Parallax owes us..." True! But we also owe one another too. Now is the time to be good humans all around. When we can do something, you can bet your Smile Parallax will put it out there, and you can also bet a lot of us are there, ready to contribute too. The better we can make this time, the more potent all of that will be.
Poor old Chip has a whole new vision in mind after the last PII "hot" debacle. He sets about redesigning the whole thing. At the same time there is a whole new process technology to deal with, no doubt a bunch of new tools, and then all the issues that come with working with whatever company is tackling the layout brings.
And we ask "How long?".
I'm sure if it had all been done before the answer would be clear. But then if it had all been done before there would be no point.
Sure I feel the frustration and impatience, but as I always tell my boss when he asks about schedules, I have no idea, I have not done this before, neither has anyone else in the company.
Technical issues which will always come up aside, I think Parallax has not helped itself by going dark as it has.
My impression of the forums and number of online users mirrors yours, I've thought I noticed a decline on both the P/PII boards, as well as some people who seem to have disappeared for good.
The phone and now auto markets seem to be driving ARM multicore harder than ever. Atmel is on the chopping block, and Microchip's financials have continued to surge.
With that in play, not too mention Arduino and RPi continued success in the Maker and Education spaces, I do see Parallax's niche as logically having to shrink.
Now that I think about it, I think we are in the midst of one of the large-scale changes that always seem to take a while to fully realize are actually happening now, and not something that is going to happen in the future.
FPGA players are being M&A'd, uC Design & Fab are being sold, markets are being absorbed...
Unfortunately, logical thought here is only sometimes appreciated.
Some seem to only be driven by the desire to have new shiny, my precious.
I'd like to see Parallax get back to being more respectful and responsive to the community that supports them far more than just as a 'rah-rah' fan base.
And maybe, pick a market like the auto sector that plays to their multi-core strengths and try a small real world market expansion before once again tilting at windmills and trying to set the uC market on its head.
This might make more decisions like a software license vs headcount moot.
1) You have not been following along here.
2) Some how you think your "logical thought" is more correct than other peoples logical thought.
3) You just want to be antagonistic.
Whatever, it's very disrespectful to the many very smart and logical people who hang out here.
We are watching, Chip and Parallax are doing. If anyone has a better idea as to how to do it they are welcome to try it themselves.
It all reminds me of Harry Enfield, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkZdTHmX0TQ
I didn't see anything wrong with your post, though I did sort of skim it:)
I think most everyone would agree with the above.
My point is, it should be regardless of Chip's work style, batten down the hatches, silent running, etc.
Ken should have no problem talking with the Founder/Head of R&D/Brother/(His Boss?) once a month to get the low down and simply give the community a rundown on how things are going with at least a modicum of detail.
Don't need to know the details so much as what is complete, what is not, has feature set changed, etc. Really, this isn't even like a PM's job, just the same 5-10 questions every month or couple of weeks that would show the state of the project.
It not the progress or lack of it, even with external vendors assisting, its clear its all primarily on Chip's shoulders.
Its the impression that you are blowing off of your most committed fans and supporters with excuses about lack of time, bunker mentatilty, etc.
Could be, however in this I am not fauling Chip. Ken or his delegate should have seen to the care and feeding of a rare earth resource, its supportive, buying customers.
Thats the business side of the house. Unless the forum really makes up nothing but a fraction of revenue, and isn't worth the effort.
Agreed. Everyone wants the best for Parallax, and their success flows downhill with many benefits for all involved.
However I don't view my comments quite as 'disparaging' as much as my humble opinion on how they have gotten off-track by running silent. An incredible amount of time could have been saved, and/or more productively put to use by all, if they would just give regular updates. Progress will move ahead, stall and surge, thats normal. Communicating to its base on a regular basis would most likely be far more useful to Parallax as some here might be able to give some critical insight/suggestions to Chip, vs not communicating and having that 'resource' waste its time in useless and far afield discussion.
Not communicating is a 2-for-1, deincentivizes and wastes free potential SME resources.
Not to beat the dead horse, but Chip doesn't need be the one to post updates.
I hear what you are saying, however that is also from a strictly personal point of view. What about those here who are seriously looking at the PII for future product use?
Not knowing anything because Parallax is running-silent is probably more of a disincentive to stay with Parallax. If I were a Manf. customer and had a P1 project, with a P2 project on the horizon, I would see this silent running as more likely proof that there is a FUBAR situation that Parallax does not want to communicate precisely because the production date has slipped way out.
Whereas, if I had seen regular updates on progress/status, I'd probably be inclined to weather the delay if technically possible since I would not only have seen the prior progress, but also how they had handled setbacks, and be able to compare that to their new target date and be able to feel comfortable that they were realistic.
End result is most likely keeping a customer, vs 'hoping' a customer could be strung along in the dark through all the delays.
Ending on a highnote, someone's been taking class?
Again, I just thought I'd post my opinion, and thats all they are. I think at least a few others probably agree with some of my points, as I think they are logical and not meant to berate Parallax.
Its just the longer this goes on, the more I think it starts to appear as either FUBAR'd with a low-profile running mode, or its just taken for granted that the fans will always be there in the same numbers to provide useful S/W Dev support and $$/Validation work.
Would love to see it get back to the old Parallax mode.
Lol, keep your shirt on!
My comment was more a quip to someone who replied, don't draw conclusions that aren't there.
1, 2, and 3 don't pertain.
I am frustrated as some here, though not nearly as frustrated as many others, and certainly not as much as others who have simply left.
If Chip/Ken were to pop-up in the very next post and announce that the P2 would be in production and shipping by Chipmas I would be thrilled. Likewise, if he posted that they were slowly grinding through it with vendor assistance and a mid-2016 release was realistically expected, I'd be disappointed somewhat, but happy to get an idea of progress and plans.
To whit, its not the progress or lack of it that I find disappointing. Its the change in tack insofar as keeping its 'community' informed, vs treating us like mushrooms, in the dark.
And to be frank the excuses for doing so are almost proof that this 'community' existing more in the mind of its members than Parallax'.
Example- I've a brother who is CEO of a bank on the other side of the continent, and while brothers not especially close knit.
However even with both of us working crazy hours, in different timezones, and in completely different fields, I know for a fact that I could call him up every 2 weeks or month and get 10 minutes of his time to get a rundown on the current financial state of his bank, expansion plans, overall debt & P/E, etc, etc.
So, Parallax, Ken, 5-10 other Engineers, and no one can keep Parallax's much bally-hooed 'community' in the loop on its most expensive project to date, because Chip is in bunker-mode?
I know you are pretty darn sharp, and are/have worked as a real professional Engineer. Do those 'excuses' really sound plausible to you?