I still use PropTool for all my Spin/PASM coding. I hope to get to the point that I can use this new IDE we make instead, which means I want a lot of what is in PropTool to be in here too. Especially the visual code scoping aids and the top object stuff.
I'm delighted by this effort to make a multi-platform successor that retains many of PropTool's most endearing features, and focuses primarily on Spin and PASM. I confess I still don't know how to use SimpleIDE for multi-cog mixed Spin and PASM applications. Haven't had to, thanks to the great convenience and utility of PropTool.
BTW, I like the names "Spin Inside" and "Spiral." There are too many 'EZ' and 'IDE' things in the world, even though both are useful descriptors. (In fact, it's because they are so useful that they've been used to death.)
I am quietly following this thread. You asked about how any use PropTool?
I only use Windoze...
When programming SPIN and/or PASM, for P1 and P2, I use PropTool as the editor, then save, and compile with whatever compiler I need to use. Here are a few examples...
1. P2: PropTool is the editor, pnut is the compiler - pain to ensure I save and reload, including incrementing the filename (my homebrew git that I have been doing for 40 yrs).
2. P1 PropOS: PropTool is the editor. I use a .bat file to compile all programs using homespun (has include)
3. ZiCog: PropTool is the editor, although sometimes for simple editing I use bst. bst (the IDE) is used for compiling, downloading and the bst terminal for testing.
When I use Catalina C I use Notepad++ for editing and a batch file to compile.
I have also used Notepad++ for editing my P2 (PASM2 only) program, but there are some inconsistencies that change my tab indentation between Notepad++ and PropTool, so I reverted to PropTool. BTW Sapieha has PASM highlighting working (not indentation) in Notepad++.
The point is that while I could use any IDE/Editor, I choose PropTool because I like the line numbers, indentation highlighting, and block colors. While it is a very basic editor, the basics are nice. If things like autocomplete and tooltips were added, it would be a fantastic editor for pasm and spin. As I don't use C much I cannot comment (but this is not about C here anyway).
Hope this provides another perspective on what you are planning.
I only used Propeller Tool until SimpleIDE came around. I was using it in a virtual Windows environment on my Macs (mostly VMWare, but VirtualBox and Parallels, too). Performance of VMWare over the last few years has made it the "go to" for me, but I admit that SimpleIDE is my "go to" propeller development environment for C & Spin.
I'm used to XCode with all its bells & whistles, but I use only about 60% of that for Mac OS & iOS development
I 'm also using command-line build tools and nano as my editor for Linux work
My experience with Eclipse for Android development makes me want to strangle its development team
There are several editor features that assist fast-development that I would like to see in EZ/Prop Inside/etc... Built-in editing features that allow:
Quick Spin code formatting (auto-indent is good, but I also like multi-line indent & "undent")
Quick Search & Replace (Key-equivilents for all options)
And, the idea of following Propeller Tool's "extra" load & run options is good!
Compile/load from RAM without file save
Load a previously compiled file to RAM/EEPROM
etc...
I choose PropTool because I like the line numbers, indentation highlighting, and block colors.
Yep. I also like the Summary view of the listing -- especially when I'm working on a big project, or trying to guide a friend through a program and we're looking for something. I hope these features find their way into Propeller IDE. What I do like that Propeller IDE adds is the list of methods in the selected object -- very helpful.
the names "Spin Inside" and "Spiral."
...in my opinion, are pointless, and do nothing to help promote the use of the Propeller. Just as the beanie logo was absolutely not helpful, neither are cute names.
I really like the block cursor edit mode. And that P-Tool has various insert modes. In particular, the block cursor will do what it takes to place text anywhere. One can build ASCII art, as a simple example of how it works, without thinking about spacing, tabs and such. I use this feature quite often.
The audience didn't know about the other features largely due to the basic workflow being "friction free" and "sticky" as mentioned above. Work got done, low hassle, encouraging continued use of the tool, etc...
I do agree with your points about the Propeller IDE. I think there are many good suggestions for the future Propeller IDE.. Actually I will be happy if the Propeller IDE feature set never moves beyond Jazzed's initial check list. The Propeller IDE. wil be just fine. Also did I say, perhaps it should be called the Propeller IDE?
On the other hand, I like the Propeller Logo. It's not cutesie and clever. It's a cultural icon that works well.
Also did I say, perhaps it should be called the Propeller IDE?
I agree!
The beanie logo is best debated over beers. I believe that it caused some [pocket protector types] to look past the the Propeller -- their loss, but also an opportunity loss for Parallax. Trying to be cute for the sake of being cute is rarely a winning strategy. IMHO.
After some thought, here is my naming preferences in order:
1. Open Propeller Tool or just Propeller Tool (because that's what it's aiming to replace)
2. Propeller IDE (only if the above is truly unacceptable)
And that's it. We had asked Ken to change it from being called SimpleIDE for Spin for the reasons I mentioned before. I liked Spin Inside better than Spiral or any of the other silly names people were coming up with, so I was fine with it, but after thinking about it more, I have to agree with JonnyMac and Heater. It needs to be a more generic non-silly name.
Please also make a new googlecode.com for it that isn't easyside, or if you are feeling really nice.. use github instead. I have been tempted to move OpenSpin over to github as well. It's just better.
I think github is better for collaboration with more people. Anyone can create a fork of a codebase and it lives on github attached to their account, and then they can work on things with revision control themselves and when ready request pulls from their branch back into the main owners branch. You don't need to give anyone commit access on the main branch.
I like the way they show revisions better.
I don't dislike googlecode.com, so I don't really care either way. I know others have mentioned github, maybe they have a better sales pitch.
I'm a git noob, so I may need more sales pitch than the next guy.
Explain how request pulls works? I assume it's a way to integrate on the main.
How can we tell if new code from another developer is good before integration?
Is there an easy way to revert changes if something gets boffed up?
+10 for DONE! At this stage, I'm not sure the name is cast in concrete or if it will get so ingrained in the small group involved that it will be indelibly labeled on e way or the other. Heck, make "What do you want to call this tool?" one of the installation parameters, now that would be user friendly!!!
"How did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
"Well, I don't know if the author should really have called it 'Our American Cousin', maybe just 'American Cousins' or 'Cousin Americans', I'm just not sure what his intent was with that title."
First thing to understand is that there is no "main repo" in git. If I clone your Propeller XXX then they are both the same. Of course, we users all agree that your repo is the "main" and work accordingly.
So now I make changes. You pull the changes from my repo into yours. Or of course, the main repo moves ahead and I pull changes from there.
The only way to tell if code is good of course is to review it and or test it. Or blindly trust that the code your committers want you to pull is reliably reviewd and tested. Of course you can maintain different branches for testing and "main line" and so on. And of course your own repo at home is not the same one as on git hub.
There is a whole slew of ways to revert bad changes. I think the best of them is "git revert" that actually creates a patch to undo the changes of a commit and comits that. This is cool because you are not throwing away any change history is the process. You can do that of course if you want but that's going to confuse things if my repo has changes in it that you have just sent to oblivian.
My encouragement is to put our effort here into the project, as much as possible. The goal is to have a nice, simple Spin Inside programming environment.
My encouragement is to put our effort here into the project, as much as possible. The goal is to have a nice, simple Spin Inside programming environment.
Just a bit of encouragement to keep us on track.
Ken Gracey
You say you're backing this project but let's see the evidence. Where are the project T-shirts? Where are the Propeller beanie hats? Come on Ken, get with it! :-)
Great, importing mercurial into git should be doable if you are fussy about keeping the change history.
I have to pay $7 a month for hosting a repository with github?
No. As long as the repos are viewable and clonable by the public they are free. That does not mean any old public can make changes though. Private repositories cost money.
Not sure what the problem is with the sign in. You have to register and get a user name and password of course. After that I let ssh keys do all the work.
No idea about tools for googlecode.
Ken,
I think we are all with you on the goal here. For various definitions of "nice", "simple" and "Spin Inside"
You say you're backing this project but let's see the evidence. Where are the project T-shirts? Where are the Propeller beanie hats? Come on Ken, get with it! :-)
I think the issue is, he's created t-shirts and goodie bags with each of the 27 different names on them.....now his office is full of things with the wrong name on them. I'd be checking ebay (or his sons' school) for fundraisers involving t-shirts!
Comments
I'm delighted by this effort to make a multi-platform successor that retains many of PropTool's most endearing features, and focuses primarily on Spin and PASM. I confess I still don't know how to use SimpleIDE for multi-cog mixed Spin and PASM applications. Haven't had to, thanks to the great convenience and utility of PropTool.
BTW, I like the names "Spin Inside" and "Spiral." There are too many 'EZ' and 'IDE' things in the world, even though both are useful descriptors. (In fact, it's because they are so useful that they've been used to death.)
I only use Windoze...
When programming SPIN and/or PASM, for P1 and P2, I use PropTool as the editor, then save, and compile with whatever compiler I need to use. Here are a few examples...
1. P2: PropTool is the editor, pnut is the compiler - pain to ensure I save and reload, including incrementing the filename (my homebrew git that I have been doing for 40 yrs).
2. P1 PropOS: PropTool is the editor. I use a .bat file to compile all programs using homespun (has include)
3. ZiCog: PropTool is the editor, although sometimes for simple editing I use bst. bst (the IDE) is used for compiling, downloading and the bst terminal for testing.
When I use Catalina C I use Notepad++ for editing and a batch file to compile.
I have also used Notepad++ for editing my P2 (PASM2 only) program, but there are some inconsistencies that change my tab indentation between Notepad++ and PropTool, so I reverted to PropTool. BTW Sapieha has PASM highlighting working (not indentation) in Notepad++.
The point is that while I could use any IDE/Editor, I choose PropTool because I like the line numbers, indentation highlighting, and block colors. While it is a very basic editor, the basics are nice. If things like autocomplete and tooltips were added, it would be a fantastic editor for pasm and spin. As I don't use C much I cannot comment (but this is not about C here anyway).
Hope this provides another perspective on what you are planning.
I 'm also using command-line build tools and nano as my editor for Linux work
My experience with Eclipse for Android development makes me want to strangle its development team
There are several editor features that assist fast-development that I would like to see in EZ/Prop Inside/etc... Built-in editing features that allow:
Quick Search & Replace (Key-equivilents for all options)
And, the idea of following Propeller Tool's "extra" load & run options is good!
Load a previously compiled file to RAM/EEPROM
etc...
dgately
Luckily Cliff Biffle's assembler, then BST then, SimpleIDE came along to save us from that dead end. Exactly.
It's so simple but strangely it seems half the audience did not know about ctrl-F8, ctrl-F9, ctrl-F10, ctrl-F11 until reading this thread!
dgately, Likewise my experience of using it for the XMOS devices.
Yep. I also like the Summary view of the listing -- especially when I'm working on a big project, or trying to guide a friend through a program and we're looking for something. I hope these features find their way into Propeller IDE. What I do like that Propeller IDE adds is the list of methods in the selected object -- very helpful.
...in my opinion, are pointless, and do nothing to help promote the use of the Propeller. Just as the beanie logo was absolutely not helpful, neither are cute names.
The audience didn't know about the other features largely due to the basic workflow being "friction free" and "sticky" as mentioned above. Work got done, low hassle, encouraging continued use of the tool, etc...
I do agree with your points about the Propeller IDE. I think there are many good suggestions for the future Propeller IDE.. Actually I will be happy if the Propeller IDE feature set never moves beyond Jazzed's initial check list. The Propeller IDE. wil be just fine. Also did I say, perhaps it should be called the Propeller IDE?
On the other hand, I like the Propeller Logo. It's not cutesie and clever. It's a cultural icon that works well.
I agree!
The beanie logo is best debated over beers. I believe that it caused some [pocket protector types] to look past the the Propeller -- their loss, but also an opportunity loss for Parallax. Trying to be cute for the sake of being cute is rarely a winning strategy. IMHO.
1. Open Propeller Tool or just Propeller Tool (because that's what it's aiming to replace)
2. Propeller IDE (only if the above is truly unacceptable)
And that's it. We had asked Ken to change it from being called SimpleIDE for Spin for the reasons I mentioned before. I liked Spin Inside better than Spiral or any of the other silly names people were coming up with, so I was fine with it, but after thinking about it more, I have to agree with JonnyMac and Heater. It needs to be a more generic non-silly name.
Edit: I like Roy's #1. Either one.
Never name products after TV shows, movies, or significant characters
SimpleIDE is out because that is a different product IMHO.
Same goes for Propeller Tool, that is a different product.
My next commit which will be later today makes it Propeller IDE. Done IMHO.
I always wonder why people who are clearly very intelligent often try to be 'clever' when it comes to naming something....
KISS!
Either that or "Propeller IDE" works fine for me.
C.W.
Okay, Good!
Please also make a new googlecode.com for it that isn't easyside, or if you are feeling really nice.. use github instead.
I think github is better for collaboration with more people. Anyone can create a fork of a codebase and it lives on github attached to their account, and then they can work on things with revision control themselves and when ready request pulls from their branch back into the main owners branch. You don't need to give anyone commit access on the main branch.
I like the way they show revisions better.
I don't dislike googlecode.com, so I don't really care either way. I know others have mentioned github, maybe they have a better sales pitch.
I haven't tried it but what about github for Windows: http://windows.github.com/
There are 6 other git tools for Windows here: http://git-scm.com/downloads/guis
That's what I use. Github for windows.
There's also this page with TONS of tools for working with github: https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/InterfacesFrontendsAndTools
Explain how request pulls works? I assume it's a way to integrate on the main.
How can we tell if new code from another developer is good before integration?
Is there an easy way to revert changes if something gets boffed up?
There was some other .net stuff in there LOL
I have to pay $7 a month for hosting a repository with github?
Can the same tool be used with googlecode?
+10 for DONE! At this stage, I'm not sure the name is cast in concrete or if it will get so ingrained in the small group involved that it will be indelibly labeled on e way or the other. Heck, make "What do you want to call this tool?" one of the installation parameters, now that would be user friendly!!!
"How did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
"Well, I don't know if the author should really have called it 'Our American Cousin', maybe just 'American Cousins' or 'Cousin Americans', I'm just not sure what his intent was with that title."
So now I make changes. You pull the changes from my repo into yours. Or of course, the main repo moves ahead and I pull changes from there.
The only way to tell if code is good of course is to review it and or test it. Or blindly trust that the code your committers want you to pull is reliably reviewd and tested. Of course you can maintain different branches for testing and "main line" and so on. And of course your own repo at home is not the same one as on git hub.
There is a whole slew of ways to revert bad changes. I think the best of them is "git revert" that actually creates a patch to undo the changes of a commit and comits that. This is cool because you are not throwing away any change history is the process. You can do that of course if you want but that's going to confuse things if my repo has changes in it that you have just sent to oblivian.
See for example solutions here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4114095/revert-to-previous-git-commit
Just a bit of encouragement to keep us on track.
Ken Gracey
"Propeller IDE", Yay!
Great, importing mercurial into git should be doable if you are fussy about keeping the change history.
No. As long as the repos are viewable and clonable by the public they are free. That does not mean any old public can make changes though. Private repositories cost money.
Not sure what the problem is with the sign in. You have to register and get a user name and password of course. After that I let ssh keys do all the work.
No idea about tools for googlecode.
Ken,
I think we are all with you on the goal here. For various definitions of "nice", "simple" and "Spin Inside"
I think the issue is, he's created t-shirts and goodie bags with each of the 27 different names on them.....now his office is full of things with the wrong name on them. I'd be checking ebay (or his sons' school) for fundraisers involving t-shirts!