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why, the parallax products are too expensive?

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  • eventsevents Posts: 27
    edited 2014-02-21 17:32
    4x5n, running at up to 20mhz. Pipeline 80/4 = 20 mips
  • Clock LoopClock Loop Posts: 2,069
    edited 2014-02-21 17:40
    50 propeller chips were killed when I had to move out of my apartment in an extreme emergency. The props were on a table with a cloth, apparently a few 9v batteries were also on the cloth.

    In an attempt to move out in a few days time, I just picked up the cloth and all the parts along with it, but not knowing about the 9v batteries, all of it bunched up inside the cloth and the 9v batteries proceeded to finish the job.

    I had to move out fast because the landlord saw my elaborate electronics and parts setup in my living room, and saw that I had my bedroom door locked with my own lock.

    Well, apparently instead of asking me what all my stuff was about, and why my bedroom door was locked, they called the police, and got the police to draft up a warrant so they could kick my bedroom door down, instead of just waiting until I got home to open it.

    So I arrive home to 7 cops ransacking my apartment, of which they found nothing, but still took all my cash, "because they need to check to see if its criminally related" I still have no idea WTF it was all about, because I cannot afford a lawyer to sue them for wrecking my apartment.

    Well, the apartment people then actually used the broken bedroom door against me and evicted me with 1 week notice.

    So I had to pack stuff up fast and the props were neglected. (but at the time, the police touched all of my motherboards, circuits, parts, etc.. and did it without using any anti-static protection, and were walking across the carpet constantly while rummaging through my things.
    After I got everything in my new place, the total damage from blatant neglectance, (throwing things around) not keeping anything neat, not putting things back where they belong, I ended up finding over 5,000$ in damaged equiptment, parts, and things that were thrown around while they were searching for osama bin ladens sea bloated carcus. They didn't find it, but they found my money and took it. And because I have never been in any legal trouble, or ever had this happen before, or had any cop steal my money, I believed the cop when he told me I can get my money back after their "investigation" is done, in 2 months. So I waited for 2 months to the day, and called the same cop.
    Now he actually tells me that I had to apply for my money(ask permission for my own property???WTF?) and because I didn't submit the paperwork a week prior, they confiscated my money that day. When I told the cop what he said, he completely denied it and acted like it was all my fault.

    All I have to say, is this better not happen again, because there will be only hot lead, in the aftermath. I own a precision temp controlled soldering gun with holster, I even have flux.
  • eventsevents Posts: 27
    edited 2014-02-21 17:45
    Sorry 4x5n, for cog. 20x8 = 160 mips, in theory. one instruction every four clock cycles in the eight cog's.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2014-02-21 19:26
    events wrote: »
    4x5n, we will use two MK10DN32VFM5 on the same pcb. Cheap Automatas. The software is developed by us, "inputs photography".

    I see that Digikey have zero stock of these very nice parts, yes they are cheap and you can't get them, why? Because Freescale is a very big company making very big quantities but their very big quantity customers get first dibs, whereas you and I and anyone under 10k MOQ are way down the line. Next year that chip won't be available and you can cry all you like but there is not even a sorry or a warning. On the other hand Parallax have to wear the design cost over much smaller volumes and they don't even have their own foundries yet they managed to keep the price in a acceptable range. Certainly in the beginning the cost was more like $20 a chip but they took a gamble and reduced it's price right down. I can pick them up for under $7 here and that certainly is a realistic and reasonable price.

    Events, I know that you are a proponent of the Propeller and in sympathy this is my take on your situation.
    I have been involved in a great many projects where sometimes too much time is spent trying to get the cheapest processors etc and I can tell you it doesn't save any money at all. Even when you can get the cheaper chip running you have spent way too much time doing so, then you find you need to upgrade the chip because it can't do what you need it to, well what's happened really is that there has been feature creep combined with the customer's realization from the early prototypes that they need it to do other things too (didn't we tell you?). After all this and it has been in production for a short while you are advised that you now have a 6 month lead time on that part (or just pay $$$) or you are advised of it's EOL (already!?). This is the exact opposite of what we have with the Prop, I have always been able to make the Prop do way more than I originally intended (thanks to the multiple cores), it has never been hard to get, and the price is reasonable, and Parallax have made a commitment to continue to produce this chip which it certainly has these past 8 years already.

    Anyway, that's my few words on the matter and I hope that you will eventually be able to design the Prop into a similar project.

    BTW, what's "inputs photography?
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2014-02-21 21:28
    events, if the cost of the P8X32A is a problem you need to work directly with Parallax. Aside from RS Electronics, we have little volume chip distribution in Europe. You can source it directly from Parallax, RS Components or Digi-Key. The cost would be far lower than you see from Aliatron, who is more of an educational distributor than a chip dealer.

    Typically, we get involved with customers using our chips. We learn about your project, support you with an engineer as you need, and help you get the most out of our design. At the same time, we learn about your needs and projected volume to arrive at a price. There are many variables that affect price, like how much support you might need, how many chips you use, what payment terms your company prefers, etc. While I always stick to the published price list (on www.parallax.com) sometimes we have to deviate because of these variables. Even a scheduled purchase order with non-cancellable, non-returnable terms changes the price.

    So, don't allow your bosses to control the design-in situation on costs alone until we all have a chance to work together. I can certainly speak their language especially if they are cost- or accounting-oriented, as I understand how the Propeller can save them money that they may pay elsewhere in design or BOM costs. We can start with a Skype call - contact me if you are interested.

    Ken Gracey
  • trookstrooks Posts: 228
    edited 2014-02-22 00:44
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    We should figure out what you're doing to destroy so many Propeller chips, if you don't already know.

    Call our tech support and start with a question or two to David Carrier. If needed we can elevate to Jeff Martin, too, and even talk with Chip if needed.

    Let's reduce your mortality rate, Clock Loop!

    Ken Gracey


    Being over-clocked has let the Murphy particles out of billions and billions and billions of components.... well maybe not quite so many... I was extrapolating from personal experience.<g>

    Maybe your setup should include a software heat sensor. Nearly every piece of 'fast' logic I ever worked on had a high priority interrupt from heat sensors. Most times it simply meant that PMs were not being done and a filter was clogged or a fan had quit.

    I was going to ask the question eventually myself about how much the chip could be over-clocked and if any simple special steps could be taken to allow over-clocking or over-cooking as it were.

    I may find I need to over-clock the BS2s I finally decided on for my project.


    Tim

    -If humans last long enough the world will eventually be run by one hairy smoking golf ball connected to a hairy smoking baseball that contains all the accumulated knowledge of mankind. - I said that over 20 years ago.
  • MoskogMoskog Posts: 554
    edited 2014-02-22 01:25
    trooks wrote: »
    Being over-clocked has let the Murphy particles out of billions and billions and billions of components....

    The Minnesotan police most have been quite over-clocked here!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-02-22 01:50
    Clock Loop.

    That is an amazing and frightening story. You have all my sympathy.

    There are so many things wrong with it I don't know what to say.

    What was the landlord doing in your place without you? Why is electronics a sign of criminal behaviour worthy of calling the cops? How come no one thought to just ask you? How come you had to move so fast, are there no tenants rights in the USA? Does this sort of thing happen every day? Is America insane? Is this some extreme paranoia brought on by the "war on terror"? Did the terrorists win back in 9/11.
  • TtailspinTtailspin Posts: 1,326
    edited 2014-02-22 07:32
    There are so many things wrong with it I don't know what to say.
    Agreed...


    At first I thought the Propeller was expensive compared to other microcontrollers , but I figured it's just because there's eight of them on one chip...


    -Tommy
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2014-02-22 10:20
    @Heater

    I have experienced a similar kind of thing while traveling and have since learned, it's all in the presentation! When I travel for business, I will frequently take projects with me. It's great fun, and I have hotel room time to burn, why not? The worst I got was a grilling by the TSA, and some odd looks from a hotel owner. Funny story: In the case of the TSA, they had all the stuff spread out and asked me about it. I gave sci-fi names, flux capacitor, single point modulator, etc... and they thought it all perfectly spiffy and sent me on my way, convinced everything was in order. I didn't know whether to laugh, which I ended up doing, or cry... still wonder about that whole thing. Security theater indeed. I honestly expected them to pick up on the humor. When they didn't, taking me seriously, it was pretty amazing. I do think about that event from time to time...

    My new job will see mostly driving, meaning I can take my stuff with far fewer worries. :)

    Anyway, what I've noted is a culture of fear and shame has bubbled up as of late. Some of it can be linked to the arrival of terrorism here in the US, but that's not the whole story. There also appears to be a strong distrust of smart people out there now not present before. I could write a considerable amount here and maybe should on my blog, but suffice it to say not all of us appear able to differentiate the good uses of technology, tinkering, hacking, etc... from the nefarious uses, and that inability drives fear and shame based responses of the kind Clock Loop experienced.

    Personally, I think the answer is ongoing education and politics. Those of us who do have the ability to differentiate these things need to continue to be ambassadors. We need to educate and advocate when and where we can and it makes sense. The "maker" and "craft" movements bubbling up right now appear to be a check on those fear and shame based norms out there, and I think we will see this phase pass as people move through the ranks and age out. Far more up and coming people appear to get this on a basic level, just as most of us did. This is favorable, IMHO.

    Sort of a, "this too shall pass" kind of thing.

    That will impact the politics and with that many of the norms and perhaps we will return to a more friendly time overall. Not that it's bad now. It really isn't overall. There are just pockets of this kind of thing out there, and that makes it frustrating and surprising. Most of us aren't aware, until we are, and usually some event like this is how we do become aware. On each event, it's really important to support people and be that ambassador / advocate to propagate the right perspective and just let social dynamics carry us through.

    It's most important to see it for what it is, not get jaded or fearful, and be that ambassador / advocate. Clock Loop bumped into this mess and ideally can shake it off, continue having fun, learning, building, sharing and help everybody get to a better place over time.
  • 4x5n4x5n Posts: 745
    edited 2014-02-22 10:41
    Clock Loop,

    Your run in with your landlord and police is unbelievable. Have you talked to a lawyer about what happened?
  • Clock LoopClock Loop Posts: 2,069
    edited 2014-02-22 22:26
    I did, and it was 1K$ to even start with a lawyer, after talking to him for my free 1hour .
    With an outcome that wouldn't get me anything but lawyer debt, many have attempted to challenge overt abuse in the serving of warrants,
    and the rules, when it comes to forfeiture, even in cases where the material forfeited was loosely related, and the offender has no prior legal record.

    The system uses its best lawyers in these situatons because its how they are making most of their money, if their method of judges signing warrants, and then the police stealing equiptment and money isn't protected, then the profit and incentive behind the violence and murder (many raids result in mistaken murder, and mistaken damage of property), isn't balanced.


    The problem is that good old detective work and judgement of severity of crime isn't being used.

    Today what we have are a "football team" like police force that uses no judgement when it comes to the severity of the crime, they also cannot critically think about what could be a violation of an individuals rights.

    You have no rights until you are sitting in court wearing a suit, with a lawyer that has already been paid 5,000$ for the work he has done so far to build the case.

    Real justice in america has been reduced to a once flaming red hot bullet.

    Ironically, when I got home, the first question one of the cops asked was, " why didn't you bring your cell phone with you?"
    At first i thought this question was weird.. why would they care, but then I realized its because they used the cell phone and network to track my location within 3 feet prior to initiating the warrant search for osama's dead sea bloated carcus inside my locked room.

    Oh yes, they are using everything against you. Right now. As they please. You see, the law and courts cannot do anything illegal to those without money.
    I mean look at the statistics, most poor people never return suit, so they MUST be guilty. I mean after all, we have a fair and balanced court system.
    That everyone gets to use completely fairly, and stuff. The system has an equal amount of money and credit to pay their lawyers as you do, right????? Que everything is awesome song.


    http://www.fear.org/
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-02-23 03:16
    Tell me, how was the rent in that apartment?

    Maybe he had a prospective new tenant willing to pay a higher rent, waiting?
    (In most civilised countries there are laws about suddenly raising the rent... )

    You should have reported a break-in at your apartment immediately after the police were there.
    Not to report the police, but your landlord.
    Unless your lease says that he can come and go as he pleases, or there's an immediate danger of serious property damage or people getting hurt, he doesn't have the legal authority to enter YOUR apartment.

    It may actually be possible to take him to small-claims court over it...
  • Clock LoopClock Loop Posts: 2,069
    edited 2014-02-23 12:56
    I suspect much fraud and illegal activity was committed by many people, the apartment people, the judge who signed a warrant for someone with no record and on a case that had no real proper investigation done by a detective to even see if its proper to even waste their time with me, or just knock on the door and ask me to have a friendly chat.

    If I had been better prepared, I may have pursued this in court, but I lack evidence. I do now own a cctv camera system that will give me the evidence one needs in court, I don't like living under a camera, but I have no choice, I also don't like not having a cell phone, but now that I know they abuse that also, I cannot bring myself to purchasing another one, they even stole my old one also, and never gave it back either.
    This kind of activity in society completely changes people, society and culture.



    Video is pretty rock solid.
    Without that you are basically asking, a cop to in incriminate himself in court. And the apartment people. That wouldn't happen, what would happen, is both people would lie to cover their asses.

    And the judge is left to do nothing but side with the cops, because it involves a judge who signed a warrant. Immediate bias.
    And nothing says that you cannot get the same judge who did sign it.

    You are better off learning from such an event, and preparing for it to happen again, than using any time or money in pursuit of the criminals.
    Even the courts are criminal, and you giving them ANY business is helping them.


    Judges, prosecutors, lawyers, cops, court reporters, all those people...
    Not a single person just listed cares at all, why you are there, they just care that you ARE there, BECAUSE BUSINESS IS GOOD!

    I wouldn't put money and time into a system that caused the problem to begin with.

    If the judge had refused to sign the thing to begin with, and told the cop to get a life and find a criminal, not an electronic engineer, everything would have been fine.
    This is not a small claims case, its a case against the judge.
    I already talked to a lawyer, and the only way anyone ever has gone to court, in a case when a judge signed a warrant, is to sue the judge.
    This is not about the chump change they stole from me and damage they did to my property, those are ancillary things.

    The case is about discrimination, defamation, abuse of police power, improper case investigation, etc...


    Make sure you cctv your home, don't own a cell phone, be ready for a swat, 24/7,
    and ALWAYS have 10,000$ in savings that you can use to pay the lawyer for the case that WILL get you your money back, but don't keep it in cash, because they will take it, and then you will not have money for rent or the lawyer(they did this to me)

    Now that you have video evidence, it makes things much easier, and the funds to immediately hire a lawyer to build the case, IN all cases if you don't build the case immediately, you loose.
    The lawyer needs to get as much about the case as fast as he can, because things mysteriously change in computer databases, and papers go missing all the time in police stations and court rooms.

    This is why the police will steal all your money from you, so you cannot fight back, immediately.
    They see how it works, because they have been through so many cases, they naturally, instinctually mold a case so they can work that angle every time... business is good!

    They even stole the change I had sitting on my kitchen table.. And the 60$ in my wallet. I actually had to borrow money for food.
    Tthey stole my rent money that was going to be paid the very next day, and the rest of my money was for food and gas till next paycheck.

    The whole experience was very odd, and something I thought only existed in places where people had no rights.
    Apparently the entire planet is a prison, and America is just brainwashed.
  • xanatosxanatos Posts: 1,120
    edited 2014-02-23 14:35
    potatohead wrote: »

    ...There also appears to be a strong distrust of smart people out there now not present before....

    It's true, and I'm seeing it like never before - but it seems to be in patches. The town where I live, which is otherwise a nice, quiet, pastoral bedroom community, has a large population of folks who seem, collectively, to hold the concept that Ignorance is a Virtue. Literally, I heard a guy once say that "a guy should know about sports, cars, beer and women - and these science guys with their techy wizzy s**t and fancy degrees are all up to no good". I wisely held my tongue and didn't point out that he had a smart phone in his hand as he said that.

    In the last election cycle, I remember one particular candidate getting applause when he suggested that we defund education because it only propagated liberal elitism. Other candidates have made reference to the concept that we "Americans" don't need fancy degrees because we have trades and skills that the world needs. I guess he thinks it'll be OK when the USA simply becomes the mechanics for the stuff that the rest of the world makes...

    Fortunately, as I said, this attitude seems to be in patches. A 45 minute drive to my west, and there's a college community where knowledge, even esoteric knowledge of quantum mechanics, electronics, cosmology - are all quite respected and enjoyed by even those without a deep understanding of any of them.

    Why this splotchyness exists really seems to be related to the proximity to regions where learning and discovery is actively taking place, vs. places like where I live where people, to quote yet another coffee-shop sage in town, have "learned everything they needed to know in high school, and they're through with learning". Wow.

    I wish a University would open in my town... :)
  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    I learned about the JTAGulator in a Talk about hacking unknown boards, but I didn't know it was propeller based... I find it great ! exactly due to the nature of its equivalent PINs totally suited for something like this. Simply phenomenal.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-07 10:51
    events wrote: »
    So, I get it, Parallax, pay a lot of people in the forum. OK. And then, gives the technology to China. Perfect. Now, I understand.

    If we really were all on the Parallax payroll, you just wouldn't get all the variation in opinions that exist here. About the only thing that most of us agree on is there is some real value to owning Parallax products.

    People that are getting paid behave nice to everyone. Money does that.

    Giving anything to China these days seems to occur regardless of one's intentions. But Parallax does provide open source items to the whole wide world, China included.

    Sadly, the competition in this world often uses misinformation to divert customers. It is up to the individual to learn what true value is, often with a lot of effort. If you are unsure about using a Parallax product, perhaps you can share one with a friend that already owns what you are considering buying. After all, many of us do get some of our most satisfactory purchases via word of mouth and having friends we trust explain where are the nonsense and blind alleys are. On the internet, you may well be justified to thing everyone is getting paid to sell something.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2015-09-07 15:03
    Note the date.

    Nothing to see here. OP has been missing since April 2014.

    Sinking Thread.
  • Since the thread is sinking anyway, I thought I'd add some extra ballast.

    Why are jumpers $0.99 at Parallax and about a penny other places?

    452-00009_0.png?itok=0vf2d4rW

    P.S. I still dislike thread sinking.
  • Duane I dislike sinking also, but this thread is a year and a half old. No reason to pursue.

    As far as the jumpers, I guess that there are Parallax customers that are not comfortable ordering through Mouser and Digikey like we are. Or it may be out of convenience to add to a Parallax order?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-09-07 16:44
    I feel like we are playing 'Snakes and Ladders'.

    Up it comes, down we go........
    Obviously the search engines will always dig up old thread for someone to revive according to whim.
    Perhaps the Parallax moderators should let some stay according to whim as well. One recently got to 5,000 views after revival -- in spite of being old.

    IOW, be careful. You just might be sinking your own ship. (of course, it is yours to sink, not mine.)

    Nonetheless, this one starts out presumptuously negative, wanders into the Twilight Zone, and could use a bit of sinking or closing......
    ???Jumpers at 99cents each certainly send mixed messages......
  • Obviously the search engines will always dig up old thread for someone to revive according to whim.

    That is true. But the reason User ALE brought up the JTAGulator in this thread is not known. Maybe it is buried in the threads.

    But these forums are always trying to move forward, not backwards. No reason to rehash something from long ago, and has already been answered.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-09-07 22:33
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    Since the thread is sinking anyway, I thought I'd add some extra ballast.

    Why are jumpers $0.99 at Parallax and about a penny other places?

    452-00009_0.png?itok=0vf2d4rW

    P.S. I still dislike thread sinking.

    Selling jumpers as single-piece items is just plain silly.
    Usually, you would expect to see a bag of 10 or 25 or 100 for $1, with 100 at the good value end of the scale.
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