Now, can we help with you problem to ensure you don't kill any more props? If you have connected to an LCD, then most run at 5V, so it pays to put a series resistor in the I/O lines (data lines), say 1K. Still I am surprised you killed a prop this way - they are really robust. Many of us have been amazed at what we can do without causing the blue smoke to be emitted. I had to cook mine with the IR lamp during a solder attempt - I think the cracked bubble on the top was a telltale sihgn of abuse.
BTW I have a working 24pin dip prop
I am just as surprised as you. One thing, I was not reading from the display. and why did all the I/O's go, but I/O P28, P29, P30, P31 still worked.
Did that display have some 12 volt or whatever back light? Did that high voltage some how find it's way back to the Prop pins? All sounds very mysterious.
The Lifetime Warranty formally applies only to the Propeller BOE, but it was a test case for a massive expansion of the warranty to other items. It's just a matter of taking the time to determine which products will get this warranty from us, but it'll likely include all board-level products we manufacture in Rocklin.
And from a practical perspective, we make exceptions as a routine matter. Nearly everything is truly warrantied for a long time.
And Matt is right - the abusers will NEVER dictate our agenda for this kind of customer-benefitting kind of agenda. While most companies will end policies that favor the customers due to periodic abuse, we refuse to go that direction. We'll just factor them into our costs, manage them carefully, and be sure they don't cause us to loose one piece of the magic that got us here in the first place. And we will also never question a customer if they are a potential abuser. Instead, we're going to trust you and treat you the way we would like to be treated. In fact, our customers are of such high integrity this really isn't worth worrying about.
And yes, we do process a lot of RMAs. But these are for a large variety of reasons often not related to hardware quality.
Did that display have some 12 volt or whatever back light? Did that high voltage some how find it's way back to the Prop pins? All sounds very mysterious.
No, it has a LED backlight, 5V in, light out. I added a resister to the board so I could just have 5V to power the backlight.
I never brought it up because I thought I broke the Prop.
The level of support parallax provides is really great, including both forum and downloadable media. But worldwide, arduino got more popular. Guess why?
No, Parallax products are not too expensive. I think of Parallax as another word for quality, I have never been disappointed by anything bought from Parallax. And no company offer so much for the customer as Parallax does. I never forget Ken helped me get some modems from a third-part company, thats great service. Those Tigertronics are still running. All the documentations, forum-support and not to forget ..all the fun that Parallax producs gives us, ..their products are well worth the money!
A friend of mine used to work in a computer shop. He was serving a customer, and that guy suddenly asked:
"give me a good reason why I should buy my PC here, for 50 euros more than the price of other shop at the end of the street"
"sure sir... I know that guy, as I worked for him also... and I'm actually happy you're going to spend 50 euros more here!"
"uh?!?"
"because with you paying a bit more, I can afford the rent of a whole room, while back then I had to share one with 3 beds".
Little tale n.2 - About the "family" ties between forumistas and the company
Some years ago, here on Parallax forums, someone made a post saying he had some stuff to give away for free, to the first person replying, because he was not using it anymore.
The prize was claimed in the second post, but then came a third guy lamenting his bad luck, as he really wanted that board too (maybe he was more joking than not).
Suddenly someone from Parallax stepped in, and offered a free board to the late comer.
Now to get how this is totally different, and in many ways much more effective than giving away free subsidized demo boards, like so many other big companies do, would really take spending a little time here in the forums.
So the "moral" of these stories should explain why, when I ordered directly from Parallax, not only I was more than happy to pay the right price for the meat (propeller and accessories), but also happy to pay a premium price for potatoes (resistors, connectors, etc.) despite the latter could have been had for a dime a dozen elsewhere.
No, it has a LED backlight, 5V in, light out. I added a resister to the board so I could just have 5V to power the backlight.
I never brought it up because I thought I broke the Prop.
Hi TC. my apologies again as in our PM as coming across heavy. We react protectively when Parallax is challenged and I just wanted to set it straight that Parallax makes quality products but what is almost unique about Parallax too is that they design, "manufacture", and sell chips, not just in quaddrillions, you can buy just one, at a very very affordable price, with the same high level of support for all. The Propeller is not just a really great and unique chip, it is also very reliable, they just don't fail or quit. That is more my point.
BTW, you didn't have to "read" from the LCD, all it would take is for the I/O to be in the wrong mode or floating to a certain state that the LCD could very well be in read mode (CS low, R/W high etc) and 5V * 8 data lines overnight cooking the Prop's substrate (as explained elsewhere).
So, I get it, Parallax, pay a lot of people in the forum. OK. And then, gives the technology to China. Perfect. Now, I understand.
:cool: In every endeavour of human existance endures an issue of alternate agendas. We, who are the innocent users, will never see the whole of it. if the company chooses
to pursue things that are out of our scope, we shall never know it. There may be people who contribute to the company and acquire "benefits with friends".
I do not think the parallax products are expensive, and definetely worth the price they set for their product. They have helped me alot in my education with microprocessors and
apps with the real world. That is worth alot to me. As for people who have agendas that may damage the intergity of the collective,
I pray that may they find the internal fortitude to police themselves.:blank:
You've gotten many testimonies as to the value behind the Parallax products from the customer viewpoint and an insight into the actual costs associated with a product from Ken.
As you can see, "too expensive" is relative. Value takes many forms beyond how much money you give to someone for some product.
Did your original question have any point or purpose behind it? Beyond what you found out about customer's opinions and very candid company insight, were you looking for other information about the product costs?
If the price becomes too expensive in your country due to shipping or VAT charges, Parallax can't be held responsible for those factors.
You've gotten the attention of a lot of people that are more than willing to discuss this with you and have cited many good examples of value and true cost of an item.
Please let us know where you were headed with your original statement.
What do you want to do and what are you expecting?
Personally and professionally I have a cupboard full of dev systems that cost money at the time and are going to waste due to the lack of support and the closed, expensive, nature of the tools needed to use them.
I have the perfect deal for one lucky price-conscious consumer: For a limited time only, I'm offering this Chinese FPGA board for the incredibly low price of $30! Free yourself from the shackles of a fixed architecture! Learn skills that will land you that dream job! But you have to act now...this offer won't last!
BTW, the unit you receive will come with a special coating of SecurityDust (TM). This coating assures you that this board has not been tampered with in any way! Parallax boards do not have this special coating.
Now.. Add a 200 page instruction manual on how to get started programming this board, some example software, top it off with a shiny, dust-free board that has shiny soldering connections, nurture a friendly forum community around your products and you could change $149.00 instead.... oh wait...
I have the perfect deal for one lucky price-conscious consumer: For a limited time only, I'm offering this Chinese FPGA board for the incredibly low price of $30! Free yourself from the shackles of a fixed architecture! Learn skills that will land you that dream job! But you have to act now...this offer won't last!
BTW, the unit you receive will come with a special coating of SecurityDust (TM). This coating assures you that this board has not been tampered with in any way! Parallax boards do not have this special coating.
I have the perfect deal for one lucky price-conscious consumer: For a limited time only, I'm offering this Chinese FPGA board for the incredibly low price of $30! Free yourself from the shackles of a fixed architecture! Learn skills that will land you that dream job! But you have to act now...this offer won't last!
BTW, the unit you receive will come with a special coating of SecurityDust (TM). This coating assures you that this board has not been tampered with in any way! Parallax boards do not have this special coating.
Suppose the price is $160.00 and the Bill of Materials + burdened labor to build it is about $100.00. That's $60.00 gross profit per unit. But, since half of these are sold through distribution the average selling price is probably $140.00.
The engineering costs to design the JTAGulator is probably about 120 hours, or at a standard (and fairly reasonable) engineering rate of $125.00/hr that non-recurring engineering cost is about $15,000. Suppose the Return on Investment should be 2 years and the annual volume is about 160 units.
The gross profit on 320 units is $19,000 if every unit sold at full price, so the recovery on the engineering investment could barely occur in two years.
What sort of taxes does Parallax have to pay, and is it per unit? If it's anything like personal income tax then it can be up to 25% or so.
It always amuses me when people that haven't run a business and don't have a clue (majority of politicians) tell a business how much something should cost or how some thing will or won't impact the bottom line. Every day Ken unlocks the door, he's in the hole and has to do so much in sales just to break even for that day. The burdened employee costs and fixed overhead items are almost always things that aren't considered. Taxes are another good example of things that aren't considered. Yes, you might be able to go buy the parts and make it cheaper for yourself...until you figure in the cost of your labor, tools you are using, space, etc. figure it out like a business needs to and you will find Parallax products to be a great value.
If for nothing else than putting up with a PITA like me that comes along now and then.
They have a whole box full of sharp as a tack people that patiently and gently guide me along.
They have yet to keep my money and not ship things like some of those cheaper places found out there in the evil ether. What they sell works as they say it will work unlike some of those evil entities found out in the ether. I have full confidence that if they ever send me a faulty one they will cheerfully replace it.
They host this forum and keep it civil.
They even tolerate an occasional question not about their products like a request for info/schematics from people with FST-3 and CZS-3 communications designs. I will be using BS2s at least initially in my systems modules.
Tim
"If the price sounds too good to be true it most always is." - I said that.
The JTAGulator, is very interesting, and it seems sophisticated. But the price is prohibitive.
(128 euros). So, my comment.
So back to the original post.
events should take the opens source part, and build his own for cheaper. And/or sell it here or elsewhere, and recoup his investment, and make the world a better place.
Or decide its cheaper and easier to buy the existing part; but at least let us know his decision and how he arrived at it, and make the world a better place.
What is a JTAGulator anyway, what value does ift add? Why not just use forth and do the JTAG functions in software for free, like normal? You kids and your money, burning a hole in your pocket.
Just kidding, I realize JTAG is needed if you can't use forth.
I think it may be useful to point out here that "events" hasn't chimed in here anymore... it may have been a "hit & run" post. Not sure we're doing anything here but preaching to the choir Maybe this was a troll post by Ken to get us all to put up some testimonials to Parallax! lol...
It was likely just that. We've seen 'em before and it's usually a straight up price comparison. Once the value is articulated properly, either they are on board, or go move on.
I think it's very cool we all can easily articulate that value, BTW.
Forth may be totally awesome but it for sure does not do what JTAG does.
One is a programming language the other is a means of testing hardware.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but the programming language FORTH allows us to do in software pretty much all of the functions we need to accomplish what JTAG does in special hardware. In the case of the prop, we use one cog to behave as if it was the JTAG connection, and the other cog behaves as the regular cog running the application. In the case of single core processor, we have one software task run the application, and another run the monitor. The application thread executes a lot slower due to the monitor software executing between the application steps.
There are some cases where the software solution does not deliver quiet as much as the hardware solution. But these are generally edge cases, and if you need those, you spend the extra $$$ and buy the special hardware. If you are doing something that needs an actual hardware JTAG, theres a good chance that you are just doing it wrong, at least in the case of forth applications.
...the programming language FORTH allows us to do in software pretty much all of the functions we need to accomplish what JTAG does in special hardware...
No. It does not.
JTAG is a hardware specification. I can be used to test boards and chips and sub-systems of chips that don't even have a processor to run any program.
Forth is a programming language.
It terms of using Forth to test out hardware it is no more capable than any other code I can load into a device.
When it come to using JTAG as a software loader and debugging aid, single step, brake point and all that, I don't believe Forth can do that.
And neither can most other programming systems for the Prop.
JTAG is a hardware specification. I can be used to test boards and chips and sub-systems of chips that don't even have a processor to run any program.
Forth is a programming language.
It terms of using Forth to test out hardware it is no more capable than any other code I can load into a device.
When it come to using JTAG as a software loader and debugging aid, single step, brake point and all that, I don't believe Forth can do that.
And neither can most other programming systems for the Prop.
I don't think the Prof was technically correct but in this forum generally we are talking about the Prop and the Prop does not have any JTAG hardware so any reference to debugging I guess was in reference to the Prop. At this I would have to agree with the Prof in this regard that Forth is a great debugging tool for a whole lot of reasons. Anyone who says "Forth is a programming language" totally misses the plot because I may as well say that I am a programmer, or I "fix computers" or I am a hardware guy etc. Forth is a programming language that is target resident and interactive and provides an O/S layer to the system etc (trying really hard to get it succinct).
The OP's (who appears to be a troll) product in question is designed for processors that have JTAG and for single-stepping and having direct access to internal registers etc JTAG is really good But it's like a tiny little probe with tiny little bits of information but when I have combined that with Forth I can really interact with the hardware and write those Q&D one-liners on the fly to represent these keyhole observations into a grand overview or device specific representation. So I could imagine that this product in conjunction with a resident Forth could be a very powerful tool. But any system that can run Forth can use that environment to debug the hardware and the software itself, on the fly. Yes, you can write special debug routines in any language but it's messy and it's not on the fly, as the recent I2C thread demonstrates very well.
If I may, Forth is an environment. I think that's the biggest difference I see. One builds a Forth out, until it's the perfect environment to solve the problem easily. Quite remarkable actually. In the case of Tachyon, it's been built out to solve a number of problems very well, perfectly illustrating this significant difference.
So yes, it's not just "a language" by design. Agreed.
This:
But any system that can run Forth can use that environment to debug the hardware and the software itself, on the fly.
Happens due to it being an environment, not just a language. Frankly, it has to happen this way on a Forth, because there really isn't any other common sense way to do it, unless one wants to always be loading up entirely new environments. Why do that, when the one running can simply be modified?
Inversely, taking a well realized environment to a significantly different platform may not make as much sense as simply building an optimal one would, again Tachyon case in point both directions.
This is a public forum and no members are paid by Parallax.
So =that's= why I haven't been getting a check from Rocklin! ;-)
Adding my thoughts... Parallax makes high quality products and their customer support is impeccable. True, they have some products outside my budget, but I don't consider them "too expensive"... just things I don't need badly enough.
I do not mean to imply that a Forth system, cannot be used for debugging hardware functionality. Or that it might not be cool in helping debug Forth programs.
This is a technical forum and we do technical stuff here. It helps everyone if we don't confuse common technical terms and naming. Hence my drawing to attention that Forth and JTAG are vastly different things.
It's true that when one uses JTAG simply as program loader and a means to run, stop, single step and inspect programs one could argue that JTAG is not necessary if you have another means of debugging, Like Forth or whatever. However it is not correct to say JTAG is equivalent to a programming language, it is a totally different thing.
@Peter,
Anyone who says "Forth is a programming language" totally misses the plot...
Can I quote you on that? If I would make such statement I would get a lot of feed back, now I have creditable authority behind it
Forth is a programming language that is target resident and interactive and provides an O/S layer to the system etc (trying really hard to get it succinct).
Ah, you mean a Forth system is more than just a programming language. Can't argue with that.
..you can write special debug routines in any language but it's messy and it's not on the fly,
You can. I would not call Spin or C test routines messy though. With the speed of compilation and down load we have they can be quite interactive enough.
Comments
I am just as surprised as you. One thing, I was not reading from the display. and why did all the I/O's go, but I/O P28, P29, P30, P31 still worked.
And from a practical perspective, we make exceptions as a routine matter. Nearly everything is truly warrantied for a long time.
And Matt is right - the abusers will NEVER dictate our agenda for this kind of customer-benefitting kind of agenda. While most companies will end policies that favor the customers due to periodic abuse, we refuse to go that direction. We'll just factor them into our costs, manage them carefully, and be sure they don't cause us to loose one piece of the magic that got us here in the first place. And we will also never question a customer if they are a potential abuser. Instead, we're going to trust you and treat you the way we would like to be treated. In fact, our customers are of such high integrity this really isn't worth worrying about.
And yes, we do process a lot of RMAs. But these are for a large variety of reasons often not related to hardware quality.
Ken Gracey
No, it has a LED backlight, 5V in, light out. I added a resister to the board so I could just have 5V to power the backlight.
I never brought it up because I thought I broke the Prop.
Little tale n.1 - About the right price to pay
A friend of mine used to work in a computer shop. He was serving a customer, and that guy suddenly asked:
"give me a good reason why I should buy my PC here, for 50 euros more than the price of other shop at the end of the street"
"sure sir... I know that guy, as I worked for him also... and I'm actually happy you're going to spend 50 euros more here!"
"uh?!?"
"because with you paying a bit more, I can afford the rent of a whole room, while back then I had to share one with 3 beds".
Little tale n.2 - About the "family" ties between forumistas and the company
Some years ago, here on Parallax forums, someone made a post saying he had some stuff to give away for free, to the first person replying, because he was not using it anymore.
The prize was claimed in the second post, but then came a third guy lamenting his bad luck, as he really wanted that board too (maybe he was more joking than not).
Suddenly someone from Parallax stepped in, and offered a free board to the late comer.
Now to get how this is totally different, and in many ways much more effective than giving away free subsidized demo boards, like so many other big companies do, would really take spending a little time here in the forums.
So the "moral" of these stories should explain why, when I ordered directly from Parallax, not only I was more than happy to pay the right price for the meat (propeller and accessories), but also happy to pay a premium price for potatoes (resistors, connectors, etc.) despite the latter could have been had for a dime a dozen elsewhere.
Hi TC. my apologies again as in our PM as coming across heavy. We react protectively when Parallax is challenged and I just wanted to set it straight that Parallax makes quality products but what is almost unique about Parallax too is that they design, "manufacture", and sell chips, not just in quaddrillions, you can buy just one, at a very very affordable price, with the same high level of support for all. The Propeller is not just a really great and unique chip, it is also very reliable, they just don't fail or quit. That is more my point.
BTW, you didn't have to "read" from the LCD, all it would take is for the I/O to be in the wrong mode or floating to a certain state that the LCD could very well be in read mode (CS low, R/W high etc) and 5V * 8 data lines overnight cooking the Prop's substrate (as explained elsewhere).
:cool: In every endeavour of human existance endures an issue of alternate agendas. We, who are the innocent users, will never see the whole of it. if the company chooses
to pursue things that are out of our scope, we shall never know it. There may be people who contribute to the company and acquire "benefits with friends".
I do not think the parallax products are expensive, and definetely worth the price they set for their product. They have helped me alot in my education with microprocessors and
apps with the real world. That is worth alot to me.
I pray that may they find the internal fortitude to police themselves.:blank:
You've gotten many testimonies as to the value behind the Parallax products from the customer viewpoint and an insight into the actual costs associated with a product from Ken.
As you can see, "too expensive" is relative. Value takes many forms beyond how much money you give to someone for some product.
Did your original question have any point or purpose behind it? Beyond what you found out about customer's opinions and very candid company insight, were you looking for other information about the product costs?
If the price becomes too expensive in your country due to shipping or VAT charges, Parallax can't be held responsible for those factors.
You've gotten the attention of a lot of people that are more than willing to discuss this with you and have cited many good examples of value and true cost of an item.
Please let us know where you were headed with your original statement.
I'm sure Parallax would like to know.
What do you want to do and what are you expecting?
Personally and professionally I have a cupboard full of dev systems that cost money at the time and are going to waste due to the lack of support and the closed, expensive, nature of the tools needed to use them.
BTW, the unit you receive will come with a special coating of SecurityDust (TM). This coating assures you that this board has not been tampered with in any way! Parallax boards do not have this special coating.
What sort of taxes does Parallax have to pay, and is it per unit? If it's anything like personal income tax then it can be up to 25% or so.
If for nothing else than putting up with a PITA like me that comes along now and then.
They have a whole box full of sharp as a tack people that patiently and gently guide me along.
They have yet to keep my money and not ship things like some of those cheaper places found out there in the evil ether. What they sell works as they say it will work unlike some of those evil entities found out in the ether. I have full confidence that if they ever send me a faulty one they will cheerfully replace it.
They host this forum and keep it civil.
They even tolerate an occasional question not about their products like a request for info/schematics from people with FST-3 and CZS-3 communications designs. I will be using BS2s at least initially in my systems modules.
Tim
"If the price sounds too good to be true it most always is." - I said that.
So back to the original post.
events should take the opens source part, and build his own for cheaper. And/or sell it here or elsewhere, and recoup his investment, and make the world a better place.
Or decide its cheaper and easier to buy the existing part; but at least let us know his decision and how he arrived at it, and make the world a better place.
What is a JTAGulator anyway, what value does ift add? Why not just use forth and do the JTAG functions in software for free, like normal? You kids and your money, burning a hole in your pocket.
Just kidding, I realize JTAG is needed if you can't use forth.
One is a programming language the other is a means of testing hardware.
I think it's very cool we all can easily articulate that value, BTW.
That's because we're all paid and get the same Disinformation Packets!
{KIDDING!!!!)
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but the programming language FORTH allows us to do in software pretty much all of the functions we need to accomplish what JTAG does in special hardware. In the case of the prop, we use one cog to behave as if it was the JTAG connection, and the other cog behaves as the regular cog running the application. In the case of single core processor, we have one software task run the application, and another run the monitor. The application thread executes a lot slower due to the monitor software executing between the application steps.
There are some cases where the software solution does not deliver quiet as much as the hardware solution. But these are generally edge cases, and if you need those, you spend the extra $$$ and buy the special hardware. If you are doing something that needs an actual hardware JTAG, theres a good chance that you are just doing it wrong, at least in the case of forth applications.
JTAG is a hardware specification. I can be used to test boards and chips and sub-systems of chips that don't even have a processor to run any program.
Forth is a programming language.
It terms of using Forth to test out hardware it is no more capable than any other code I can load into a device.
When it come to using JTAG as a software loader and debugging aid, single step, brake point and all that, I don't believe Forth can do that.
And neither can most other programming systems for the Prop.
I don't think the Prof was technically correct but in this forum generally we are talking about the Prop and the Prop does not have any JTAG hardware so any reference to debugging I guess was in reference to the Prop. At this I would have to agree with the Prof in this regard that Forth is a great debugging tool for a whole lot of reasons. Anyone who says "Forth is a programming language" totally misses the plot because I may as well say that I am a programmer, or I "fix computers" or I am a hardware guy etc. Forth is a programming language that is target resident and interactive and provides an O/S layer to the system etc (trying really hard to get it succinct).
The OP's (who appears to be a troll) product in question is designed for processors that have JTAG and for single-stepping and having direct access to internal registers etc JTAG is really good But it's like a tiny little probe with tiny little bits of information but when I have combined that with Forth I can really interact with the hardware and write those Q&D one-liners on the fly to represent these keyhole observations into a grand overview or device specific representation. So I could imagine that this product in conjunction with a resident Forth could be a very powerful tool. But any system that can run Forth can use that environment to debug the hardware and the software itself, on the fly. Yes, you can write special debug routines in any language but it's messy and it's not on the fly, as the recent I2C thread demonstrates very well.
So yes, it's not just "a language" by design. Agreed.
This:
Happens due to it being an environment, not just a language. Frankly, it has to happen this way on a Forth, because there really isn't any other common sense way to do it, unless one wants to always be loading up entirely new environments. Why do that, when the one running can simply be modified?
Inversely, taking a well realized environment to a significantly different platform may not make as much sense as simply building an optimal one would, again Tachyon case in point both directions.
So =that's= why I haven't been getting a check from Rocklin! ;-)
Adding my thoughts... Parallax makes high quality products and their customer support is impeccable. True, they have some products outside my budget, but I don't consider them "too expensive"... just things I don't need badly enough.
Amanda
This is a technical forum and we do technical stuff here. It helps everyone if we don't confuse common technical terms and naming. Hence my drawing to attention that Forth and JTAG are vastly different things.
It's true that when one uses JTAG simply as program loader and a means to run, stop, single step and inspect programs one could argue that JTAG is not necessary if you have another means of debugging, Like Forth or whatever. However it is not correct to say JTAG is equivalent to a programming language, it is a totally different thing.
@Peter, Can I quote you on that? If I would make such statement I would get a lot of feed back, now I have creditable authority behind it