Parallax products are NOT too expensive - simple explanation.
Next level of complexity to explanation: Parallax products come with a level of support (these forums, etc.) that is unparalleled.
Final word: Parallax products, and the accompanying support, have allowed myself and many others to launch successful careers designing embedded systems for high paying clients in a very diverse set of fields. This is objective evidence that the value of Parallax products far exceeds many of the "cheaper" competitors who leave you out in the cold to figure it out.
What are you comparing it to? Price is relative. Everything is "too expensive". It's rip-offs you don't want. Return on your investment is what you want. If the initial cost doesn't do it for you, get your hands dirty it builds character.
What specific product is too expensive? Where can we get it or similar elsewhere for less, and what price would you find more reasonable for that particular product? Without specdifics, I have no idea what you mean.
I'm not sure about the intent of the original poster's specific question without knowing which product is too expensive.
Educational products have a team that develops curriculum and tutorials.
Hardware is made in the USA, at a premium, but with the highest quality components and fabrication processes.
Our Propeller chips are custom-designed by our own R&D team.
We warranty our products, often for their lifetime.
You can choose the reason you think they are expensive, but I don't think they are since they only cover operating costs and support our process of innovation.
You get what you pay for.. It's also true with Parallax products.
Most of their items come with tested software examples, good documentation, and solid support.
I charge $65.00 an hour at my day job for my time. If I buy a cheap part from China and spend 3 frustrating hours getting it working, then I've "spent" $195.00 of my billiable time.
Granted, I might have the knowledge to make a cheap part work, but it usually means I've invested my time already, and that's fine. Education ALWAYS costs something.
For instance, I invested my time to learn all of the circuits to create my own $199.00 Hydra. I spent much more of my time to do this, but in exchange gained an education.
Had I just wanted a product to learn to program with, then buying the Parallax product would have made sense.
I've also done a LOT of hands on comparision between Parallax products and China equivlents.. Trust me, there IS a difference.
The JTAGulator, is very interesting, and it seems sophisticated. But the price is prohibitive.
(128 euros). So, my comment.
Expensive? No, not really. Just look at it from a strict financial perspective without consideration to the usefulness JTAGulator has for your project. Prices are a function of annual volume, design costs, bill of material costs, uniqueness, etc.
Suppose the price is $160.00 and the Bill of Materials + burdened labor to build it is about $100.00. That's $60.00 gross profit per unit. But, since half of these are sold through distribution the average selling price is probably $140.00.
The engineering costs to design the JTAGulator is probably about 120 hours, or at a standard (and fairly reasonable) engineering rate of $125.00/hr that non-recurring engineering cost is about $15,000. Suppose the Return on Investment should be 2 years and the annual volume is about 160 units.
The gross profit on 320 units is $19,000 if every unit sold at full price, so the recovery on the engineering investment could barely occur in two years.
And that's just the cost-side of the analysis.
Heck, this product is also open source.
The real consideration is what kind of value it brings you and your project. It's likely more than the $160 price.
I've always felt that Parallax products were priced so that I could continue to enjoy the same atmosphere that I find in all the upscale, exclusive country clubs I belong to. Just looking at the price of a Propeller chip, for example - it's wondrously outrageous at nearly the price of a Happy Meal. Come now, Gentlemen, I know we rarely discuss this delicate issue in front of the plebeians, but let's be honest: how else are we to keep the riff-raff out?
events: Here is an opportunity for you to run your own business. It's all open source, so off you go, buy 100 sets of parts, buy an SMT machine, buy a solder machine, etc, etc. Now rent some office space for that equipment, a purchasing manager to buy the inventory, a store manager to manage the inventory, a production manager to build the units, now advertise and the staff to do that. Now go to your bank with this plan and borrow the cash and see what they say.
But hey, you can probably get if from China for half the price. Now there will be no documentation, so if it isn't precisely the same as the open source version (or the original version that they illegally copied), your are on your own. Pretty soon that overpriced product doesn't seem so badly priced, does it?
Oh, and BTW, Parallax seem to replace almost anything that a purchaser can destroy.
: Parallax products come with a level of support (these forums, etc.) that is u̶n̶p̶a̶r̶a̶l̶l̶e̶l̶e̶d̶. Unparallaxed.
ahem.
why for you not have cost down.
you buy now.
Does anyone realize how many of us have gotten entire chips, programmers, and many other devices, either repaired for free, or completely replaced for free, no questions?
Well, thats not free for parallax.
(they actually support their customers.) (unlike every other no-name business that produces Smile that will never see any form of support past 1 year)
I'd hate to see the RMA budget every year at parallax.
Seeing the way the USA has been heading over the last century(greed), im sure there are no tax deductions for all those damaged parts either.
An observation: I most forums I have lurked or participated in over the years, the typical scenario sadly is that a 'good' thread is started, and very soon it goes sour, with accusations, bad words, destructive posts, etc. Here at the parallaxed forum I so often see that when what can be interpreted as a 'bad' thread is started, it invariably is responded to in a positve and constructive manner, and the discussion developes into a good one. This is an incredible value - such forum friendliness is rare. Some times I am really humbled by the way - when I instinctively would go RTFM - the answering postsers go out of their way to be constructive and helpful by providing rational answers and help.
Just had to share this.
After reading a few posts, I found out Parallax has a LIFETIME warranty. I had no idea they did. I am so use to others having a 30-90 day warranty. Looks like I am digging in the trash to find that Prop where all the I/O's quit working.
After reading a few posts, I found out Parallax has a LIFETIME warranty. I had no idea they did. I am so use to others having a 30-90 day warranty. Looks like I am digging in the trash to find that Prop where all the I/O's quit working.
As you mentioned in your other post, the I/O's didn't quit, you killed them, quite irresponsibly too, so they don't have a life anymore, so there goes the lifetime warranty. Just cop it sweet, Parallax are always trying to do the right thing by us little guys, don't abuse that relationship.
As you mentioned in your other post, the I/O's didn't quit, you killed them, quite irresponsibly too, so they don't have a life anymore, so there goes the lifetime warranty. Just cop it sweet, Parallax are always trying to do the right thing by us little guys, don't abuse that relationship.
I am sorry, I did not mean it that way. I was not really thinking since I did not have my morning coffee yet. I totally agree with you, it IS my fault, and parallax should not have to pay for my screw up.
Seems like my post above has misled some to think Parallax has a lifetime warranty on all items.
Let me correct that. I have seen instances where Parallax have replaced items that would not normally be covered by any warranty. This is quite often to help out a user who is having major problems and asks for help on these forums.
That's the spirit TC. I agree, it's morally wrong to ask for replacement or warranty if you have damaged the product by misuse.
Now, can we help with you problem to ensure you don't kill any more props? If you have connected to an LCD, then most run at 5V, so it pays to put a series resistor in the I/O lines (data lines), say 1K. Still I am surprised you killed a prop this way - they are really robust. Many of us have been amazed at what we can do without causing the blue smoke to be emitted. I had to cook mine with the IR lamp during a solder attempt - I think the cracked bubble on the top was a telltale sihgn of abuse.
BTW I have a working 24pin dip prop
I have been purchasing Parallax gear for years and have never considered their prices high. Out of my budget, sure - many times, but expensive no. When you compare the quality of documentation and support provided, no one beats 'em.
What is expensive is buying something cheap on Ebay, then not being able to get it to work because it comes with little or no documentation. And there is no web site for the product or company - if there is, there is no helpful information. If you try calling the company, can't find any phone number or they do not answer. I tried calling one company and the phone voicemail answered and said "Mailbox Full!" (Luckily I was calling BEFORE I bought their product - which I did not buy.)
Notice all the documentation here for the products. And notice that you are able to ask PLENTY of questions. You get what you pay for...
Interesting discussion...Here's what happens from an Insider's (non-management) viewpoint:
I have to "sign-out" for everything that I check out of stock. We keep a very lean, mean, and tight ship as far as our inventory goes. Everything must be justified and put in the appropriate accounting "bucket". I've been questioned many-a-time on what I need the part(s) for, for just about every category that I can "check parts out for".
Every category that is, except for "Customer Service/Warranty" - it's never an issue - I've NEVER been questioned why I sent a replacement product to a customer. We've all been empowered to do what we think is needed to make it right for the customer. No interrogation, no issues - even from the accounting guerrillas!
Have we had customers abuse this policy? - certainly, but Ken is emphatic in his belief that for every *abuser' there's 99 non-abusers...he's right in my experience here.
Are there cheaper competitive products out there? Of course. We believe (and history bears it out in Parallax's case) that quality and customer service are two of the top requirements for longevity, consistency and our customer's loyalty and satisfaction.
Of course, all this means is that you can buy products from many different suppliers - and we won't always be the "lowest cost" - but we will always stand behind our products,
Keep in mind too, that when you can't get something to work, you can call us toll free at 888-99-STAMP. Our Tech Support group is very *sharp* and they know our products well. In cases where they don't know all the details about a particular product that we make, you'll get routed to the internal developer of said product to dive deeper into the issue...
As an example, I'm the Product Owner (internal designation that simply means I have the ultimate responsibility for documentation/design/revisions for that device) of the Arlo Robot Platform series, among others. I've talked at length directly to many customers about specifications and their design guidelines for specific applications of the Arlo lineage. How many sales have I made? Not a single one. Customer questions and support are my priority. Would you like to be transferred or call back to order said part? Kristina or Chantal would be happy to speak with you ;-)
Try a comparison: Call China Tech Support, and then call Parallax's Chris Savage or David Carrier, or Daniel, or Jeff, or Andy, or, or ...well you get the picture.
events
Posts: 27
Comments
Next level of complexity to explanation: Parallax products come with a level of support (these forums, etc.) that is unparalleled.
Final word: Parallax products, and the accompanying support, have allowed myself and many others to launch successful careers designing embedded systems for high paying clients in a very diverse set of fields. This is objective evidence that the value of Parallax products far exceeds many of the "cheaper" competitors who leave you out in the cold to figure it out.
What specific product is too expensive? Where can we get it or similar elsewhere for less, and what price would you find more reasonable for that particular product? Without specdifics, I have no idea what you mean.
I don't know where you got that from. Do you have a particular example? I know of no specific case where they could be true. Can you clarify?
Educational products have a team that develops curriculum and tutorials.
Hardware is made in the USA, at a premium, but with the highest quality components and fabrication processes.
Our Propeller chips are custom-designed by our own R&D team.
We warranty our products, often for their lifetime.
You can choose the reason you think they are expensive, but I don't think they are since they only cover operating costs and support our process of innovation.
Ken Gracey
(128 euros). So, my comment.
Per unit, small production runs cost a lot. Order 1000 I bet the price goes down.
Most of their items come with tested software examples, good documentation, and solid support.
I charge $65.00 an hour at my day job for my time. If I buy a cheap part from China and spend 3 frustrating hours getting it working, then I've "spent" $195.00 of my billiable time.
Granted, I might have the knowledge to make a cheap part work, but it usually means I've invested my time already, and that's fine. Education ALWAYS costs something.
For instance, I invested my time to learn all of the circuits to create my own $199.00 Hydra. I spent much more of my time to do this, but in exchange gained an education.
Had I just wanted a product to learn to program with, then buying the Parallax product would have made sense.
I've also done a LOT of hands on comparision between Parallax products and China equivlents.. Trust me, there IS a difference.
Jeff
Expensive? No, not really. Just look at it from a strict financial perspective without consideration to the usefulness JTAGulator has for your project. Prices are a function of annual volume, design costs, bill of material costs, uniqueness, etc.
Suppose the price is $160.00 and the Bill of Materials + burdened labor to build it is about $100.00. That's $60.00 gross profit per unit. But, since half of these are sold through distribution the average selling price is probably $140.00.
The engineering costs to design the JTAGulator is probably about 120 hours, or at a standard (and fairly reasonable) engineering rate of $125.00/hr that non-recurring engineering cost is about $15,000. Suppose the Return on Investment should be 2 years and the annual volume is about 160 units.
The gross profit on 320 units is $19,000 if every unit sold at full price, so the recovery on the engineering investment could barely occur in two years.
And that's just the cost-side of the analysis.
Heck, this product is also open source.
The real consideration is what kind of value it brings you and your project. It's likely more than the $160 price.
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Exactly. And we build these in 100-unit manufacturing runs.
Few can possibly appreciate the price of American hardware until you've had the full experience of the whole business process.
Ken Gracey
But hey, you can probably get if from China for half the price. Now there will be no documentation, so if it isn't precisely the same as the open source version (or the original version that they illegally copied), your are on your own. Pretty soon that overpriced product doesn't seem so badly priced, does it?
Oh, and BTW, Parallax seem to replace almost anything that a purchaser can destroy.
ahem.
why for you not have cost down.
you buy now.
Does anyone realize how many of us have gotten entire chips, programmers, and many other devices, either repaired for free, or completely replaced for free, no questions?
Well, thats not free for parallax.
(they actually support their customers.) (unlike every other no-name business that produces Smile that will never see any form of support past 1 year)
You have your answer.
That is, unable to judge the distance? God bless us. everyone!
I'd hate to see the RMA budget every year at parallax.
Seeing the way the USA has been heading over the last century(greed), im sure there are no tax deductions for all those damaged parts either.
Their support is like... far out man... really really far out..... unparallaxed
as in....
Just had to share this.
Erlend
As you mentioned in your other post, the I/O's didn't quit, you killed them, quite irresponsibly too, so they don't have a life anymore, so there goes the lifetime warranty. Just cop it sweet, Parallax are always trying to do the right thing by us little guys, don't abuse that relationship.
I am sorry, I did not mean it that way. I was not really thinking since I did not have my morning coffee yet. I totally agree with you, it IS my fault, and parallax should not have to pay for my screw up.
Let me correct that. I have seen instances where Parallax have replaced items that would not normally be covered by any warranty. This is quite often to help out a user who is having major problems and asks for help on these forums.
That's the spirit TC. I agree, it's morally wrong to ask for replacement or warranty if you have damaged the product by misuse.
Now, can we help with you problem to ensure you don't kill any more props? If you have connected to an LCD, then most run at 5V, so it pays to put a series resistor in the I/O lines (data lines), say 1K. Still I am surprised you killed a prop this way - they are really robust. Many of us have been amazed at what we can do without causing the blue smoke to be emitted. I had to cook mine with the IR lamp during a solder attempt - I think the cracked bubble on the top was a telltale sihgn of abuse.
BTW I have a working 24pin dip prop
Notice all the documentation here for the products. And notice that you are able to ask PLENTY of questions. You get what you pay for...
I have to "sign-out" for everything that I check out of stock. We keep a very lean, mean, and tight ship as far as our inventory goes. Everything must be justified and put in the appropriate accounting "bucket". I've been questioned many-a-time on what I need the part(s) for, for just about every category that I can "check parts out for".
Every category that is, except for "Customer Service/Warranty" - it's never an issue - I've NEVER been questioned why I sent a replacement product to a customer. We've all been empowered to do what we think is needed to make it right for the customer. No interrogation, no issues - even from the accounting guerrillas!
Have we had customers abuse this policy? - certainly, but Ken is emphatic in his belief that for every *abuser' there's 99 non-abusers...he's right in my experience here.
Are there cheaper competitive products out there? Of course. We believe (and history bears it out in Parallax's case) that quality and customer service are two of the top requirements for longevity, consistency and our customer's loyalty and satisfaction.
Of course, all this means is that you can buy products from many different suppliers - and we won't always be the "lowest cost" - but we will always stand behind our products,
Keep in mind too, that when you can't get something to work, you can call us toll free at 888-99-STAMP. Our Tech Support group is very *sharp* and they know our products well. In cases where they don't know all the details about a particular product that we make, you'll get routed to the internal developer of said product to dive deeper into the issue...
As an example, I'm the Product Owner (internal designation that simply means I have the ultimate responsibility for documentation/design/revisions for that device) of the Arlo Robot Platform series, among others. I've talked at length directly to many customers about specifications and their design guidelines for specific applications of the Arlo lineage. How many sales have I made? Not a single one. Customer questions and support are my priority. Would you like to be transferred or call back to order said part? Kristina or Chantal would be happy to speak with you ;-)
Try a comparison: Call China Tech Support, and then call Parallax's Chris Savage or David Carrier, or Daniel, or Jeff, or Andy, or, or ...well you get the picture.
-Matt (is my passion showing?) G.