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Ken/Cluso99/ W9GFO/JasonD's QuadCopter Build Log (updated info ELEV-8 + availability) - Page 42 — Parallax Forums

Ken/Cluso99/ W9GFO/JasonD's QuadCopter Build Log (updated info ELEV-8 + availability)

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Comments

  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-10-13 18:49
    David Betz wrote: »
    Anyway, should I attempt to drill out the rings or just let them sit on top of the unthreaded part of the motor shaft?

    I also thought the inserts were too tight to fit on the ELEV-8's motor shafts (I'm not sure I'm correct about this though). After pushing the inserts into place inside the propeller, I drill it out with a 5mm drill bit. Since the hole is so close to 5mm to start with, the bit doesn't have a hard time cutting a small about of material from the inside of the insert.

    I think I've also forced a propeller with a fresh (unmodified) insert on to the shaft by continuing to tighten the nut until the propeller is pushed down all the way.

    I use a second nut on the shafts with counter rotating propellers since their motion tends to unscrew the nut from the shaft.

    (I find it's really hard to type "propeller" without capitalizing the first "p".)
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-14 06:04
    Once again, I am highly disappointed with Hoverfly and their software. I have yet to attempt to use their Setup Client without having numerous problems.
    Yesterday, I downloaded the Firmware update client (1.0.0.29) and installed the latest firmware ( v4.3.800 - I have the PRO and GPS boards). The firmware update went just fine with both boards.
    One of the things that you have to do with the new firmware is recalibrate everything.
    I fired up the Setup Client, which is considerably changed from the previous version. One of my big complaints with Hoverfly is their lack of help in running their software. They seem to think that we should automatically know exactly what, and more importantly, in what order to do the various calibrations, setups, etc. Nowhere can I find a checklist or instructions on how to do the whole job.
    Plus, the software doesn't seem to work. A good example:
    I did find something that instructed me to "disable" the temprature compensation, accelerometer and compass compensations. I did so. The it said to do the accelerometer calibration (this is the second thing on the screen after the temp calibration, which you would think would be the first thing). I accomplished the accelerometer calibration, then let the quad sit for about a half hour while I went out to buy a hair dryer for the temp calibration. The unit has to sit, unconnected for at least 15 minutes prior to temp calibration - which means that after you do the accelerometer you have to take at leastt a 15 minute break before you can continue. Anyway, when I got back from purchasing a hair dryer I proceeded with the temp calibration. I followed the very limited instructions. They have you answer a bunch of questions... "Is it unconnected now?", "you have to make sure it doesn't move", etc. The final thing is are you ready to start. Hold a hair dryer on high, fan medium from 3-5 feet from the board so the temprature calibration can proceed. I sat there for 20 minutes, holding the stupid hair dryer and nothing ever happened. I finally gave up. Of course, there was nobody available on the phone on Saturday. I've about had it with these bozos. I think they have a great product, but they really need someone to design, build and provide instructions for their clilent software. As a developer, I'm appalled at the lack of professionalism in this area of their efforts. Has anybody ever successfully completed the temp calibration on a PRO board?
    Don
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-14 08:41
    Ok, so just for kicks I tried the temp calibration again this morning. The quad has been sitting, inconnected in the man cave for about 18 hours. I rebooted my laptop, started the Setup Client and hit Start on the temp calibration. I answered all of the questions, plugged in the PRO board to the USB port and clicked OK. I started the hair dryer and let it go for 45 minutes. Nothing. No indication by the software that anything was happening. I finally clicked Disconnect and the graph slider went to half way and the Connected turned to Disconnected. Now, an hour later, still the same. I'll have to call them on Monday and see if they have any explanation...
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-14 09:15
    dmagnus wrote: »
    Ok, so just for kicks I tried the temp calibration again this morning. The quad has been sitting, inconnected in the man cave for about 18 hours. I rebooted my laptop, started the Setup Client and hit Start on the temp calibration. I answered all of the questions, plugged in the PRO board to the USB port and clicked OK. I started the hair dryer and let it go for 45 minutes. Nothing. No indication by the software that anything was happening. I finally clicked Disconnect and the graph slider went to half way and the Connected turned to Disconnected. Now, an hour later, still the same. I'll have to call them on Monday and see if they have any explanation...
    I sent a problem report to their tech support people but I'm sure I won't get a response until Monday when they're back in the office. Do you know if the firmware is available as a .binary file that could be downloaded using the Propelller Tool or something similar?
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-14 12:46
    The only way I know of to load the firmware is with their software. It has to flash the Prop and other firmware on the board(s). I often get the "can't find the board" message and that, I think is the same problem everybody is having with Win 7/USB ports and the Propeller. I just tried it in fact with my other laptop (not the one I've been using for the Hoverfly board). Loaded the Setup Client and started it and hooked up the Hoverfly Pro board and got the message that it couldn't find it. I clicked the "download driver" button and DID NOT load the driver, just shut down the web page when it came up. tried to connect again and it worked - go figure - your mileage may vary.
    I tried the temp calibration with that computer and got the same lack of results. Absolutely nothing happens and there is no indication from the software that anything is happening. I also note that no lights show up on the Hoverfly board. I would at least expect to see something. When I hook up the Setup client to the GPS board, everything apprears to be normal. I also get "normal" activity when I cllick on the PRO info tab. It seems to read the Hoverfly board just fine and even has the checkbox clicked for the accelerometer calibration. I just don't get it. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can get some answers but I don't know if they are even around when I get home from work.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-14 14:10
    dmagnus wrote: »
    The only way I know of to load the firmware is with their software. It has to flash the Prop and other firmware on the board(s). I often get the "can't find the board" message and that, I think is the same problem everybody is having with Win 7/USB ports and the Propeller. I just tried it in fact with my other laptop (not the one I've been using for the Hoverfly board). Loaded the Setup Client and started it and hooked up the Hoverfly Pro board and got the message that it couldn't find it. I clicked the "download driver" button and DID NOT load the driver, just shut down the web page when it came up. tried to connect again and it worked - go figure - your mileage may vary.
    I tried the temp calibration with that computer and got the same lack of results. Absolutely nothing happens and there is no indication from the software that anything is happening. I also note that no lights show up on the Hoverfly board. I would at least expect to see something. When I hook up the Setup client to the GPS board, everything apprears to be normal. I also get "normal" activity when I cllick on the PRO info tab. It seems to read the Hoverfly board just fine and even has the checkbox clicked for the accelerometer calibration. I just don't get it. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can get some answers but I don't know if they are even around when I get home from work.
    I guess if this is a Windows 7 vs. Windows XP problem I can resolve it in my case by running the firmware installer on my Windows XP desktop. I'll try that later.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-14 15:29
    dmagnus wrote: »
    The only way I know of to load the firmware is with their software. It has to flash the Prop and other firmware on the board(s). I often get the "can't find the board" message and that, I think is the same problem everybody is having with Win 7/USB ports and the Propeller. I just tried it in fact with my other laptop (not the one I've been using for the Hoverfly board). Loaded the Setup Client and started it and hooked up the Hoverfly Pro board and got the message that it couldn't find it. I clicked the "download driver" button and DID NOT load the driver, just shut down the web page when it came up. tried to connect again and it worked - go figure - your mileage may vary.
    I tried the temp calibration with that computer and got the same lack of results. Absolutely nothing happens and there is no indication from the software that anything is happening. I also note that no lights show up on the Hoverfly board. I would at least expect to see something. When I hook up the Setup client to the GPS board, everything apprears to be normal. I also get "normal" activity when I cllick on the PRO info tab. It seems to read the Hoverfly board just fine and even has the checkbox clicked for the accelerometer calibration. I just don't get it. I'll call them tomorrow and see if I can get some answers but I don't know if they are even around when I get home from work.

    Shot in the dark, but do you have Microsoft .NET Framework 4 installed?

    The upgrade SHOULD tell you if yo need it. Just a thought.

  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-14 17:29
    David Betz wrote: »
    I guess if this is a Windows 7 vs. Windows XP problem I can resolve it in my case by running the firmware installer on my Windows XP desktop. I'll try that later.
    I tried the firmware update utility under Windows XP and it seems to work. I was able to update the firmware on my HoverflySPORT board and I assume I'll be able to run the setup utility as well although I haven't tried that yet. I hope Hoverfly plans to address the Windows 7 problems because most of my Windows machines are running Windows 7 and Windows 8 is about to come out. I think XP will go away pretty soon.
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-15 07:13
    Yes, the setup client wouldn't run without it I think. I opened up a support ticket with Hoverfly. Ben seems to think my gyro is dead - good thing I didn't try to fly it!
  • JasonDorieJasonDorie Posts: 1,930
    edited 2012-10-15 14:09
    DMagnus - My own software uses the hair dryer approach to calibrate the drift on the gyro too. I draw the output of the gyro and temp values to a graph on the PC screen. If you're holding the hair dryer a foot from the gyro, it takes only a couple seconds before I can see a very visible change on the temp and gyro readings, and only about 10 seconds before there's ample change for a good stable set of readings. There's no way it should need any more than a minute.

    It's also worth mentioning that the software needs to see change the readings - holding the dryer on it for more than about 5 minutes would just heat it to a specific temperature and leave it there. The code looks at temp and gyro readings over a wide range of temperatures, and figures out from those how to compensate for the drift as the temperature varies.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2012-10-15 22:24
    Here's a new video to watch. Forum member Tiger sent me a small box of really neat "Night Lights" for the ELEV-8. These little 1-2 inch square PCBs have constant current drivers and high-intensity LEDs which draw about 300 mA at 11V, maintaining their brightness all the way down to 9VDC [long after you've grounded your ELEV-8]. Although I had the box for at least a week, I didn't share it with Kevin and Nick until today. For some reason I thought I'd be the guy to show off the cool new stuff until I realized that was just some kind of office guy fantasy.

    You can see your ELEV-8 very high in the night sky, much further away than in pure daylight. The lights also light up the landing zone really nicely.

    Will these be a product? Yes, if we can pry the files from Tiger's hands and put them on the P&P line. I think we could supply them for about 20 USD. Tell Tiger what you think, on this thread.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-10-16 01:41
    UFO sighted near Parallax the other night ;)
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-16 05:49
    Jason;
    That's exactly what I thought. It shouldn't take very long for there to be a distinctive change that I should see on the "slider". Ben actuall mentioned putting it in the freezer for a few minutes - go figure. My basement is fairly cool so that almost acts like a refrigerator. I also put the whole quad outside in 40 degree weather for a half hour before trying the calibration.
    My complaint with Hoverfly is that they should have had somewhere that I could get an explanation (as you just gave me a great example of) about what is to be expected. They are not very good at writing help files, etc.
    I'll send the board in and they can see if the gyro(s) are ok or not. Kind of a pain, but what else am I going to do?
    Thanks for the explanation,
    Don
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-16 09:34
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Here's a new video to watch. Forum member Tiger sent me a small box of really neat "Night Lights" for the ELEV-8. These little 1-2 inch square PCBs have constant current drivers and high-intensity LEDs which draw about 300 mA at 11V, maintaining their brightness all the way down to 9VDC [long after you've grounded your ELEV-8]. Although I had the box for at least a week, I didn't share it with Kevin and Nick until today. For some reason I thought I'd be the guy to show off the cool new stuff until I realized that was just some kind of office guy fantasy.

    You can see your ELEV-8 very high in the night sky, much further away than in pure daylight. The lights also light up the landing zone really nicely.

    Will these be a product? Yes, if we can pry the files from Tiger's hands and put them on the P&P line. I think we could supply them for about 20 USD. Tell Tiger what you think, on this thread.
    That looks quite cool! Are the "night lights" just the bright white light or do they also include the colored lights on the Elev-8 arms?
  • LawrencLLawrencL Posts: 49
    edited 2012-10-17 11:37
    Now that the Elev-8 is being sold by others (Makershed, Micro Center, Mouser and Digi-key) with there be more unified and polished documentation available?

    Lawrence
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-17 12:28
    Camera for Elev-8? Wait for the GoPro Hero3.

    It really deserves to be viewed in full screen HD.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-17 15:15
    Does anyone have a maintenence-friendly wiring harness design? I recently reassembled my Elev-8 kit but realized that I had forgotten to calibrate the ESCs before I installed them in the chassis. The way I made the harness this pretty much requires disassembling the entire quadcopter to disconnect the ESCs from the motors and disconnect all but one from the battery in order to run the calibrate sequence. There must be a better way of doing this. The manual says you should do this recalibration whenever you use a different radio. Does someone have a harness design that leaves all of the motor and ESC connections accessible without disassembling the entire quadcopter to do this calibration?

    Thanks,
    David
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-10-17 15:36
    David Betz wrote: »
    Does anyone have a maintenence-friendly wiring harness design? I recently reassembled my Elev-8 kit but realized that I had forgotten to calibrate the ESCs before I installed them in the chassis. The way I made the harness this pretty much requires disassembling the entire quadcopter to disconnect the ESCs from the motors and disconnect all but one from the battery in order to run the calibrate sequence. There must be a better way of doing this. The manual says you should do this recalibration whenever you use a different radio. Does someone have a harness design that leaves all of the motor and ESC connections accessible without disassembling the entire quadcopter to do this calibration?

    Thanks,
    David

    David,

    Just unplug the signal lines and leave all the power connections in place. The ESCs that don't have any signal will just beep a bit and complain. I'm pretty sure they wont be damaged being powered up without any signal (at least I hope not since I did this to six ESCs last night).
  • Steph LindsaySteph Lindsay Posts: 767
    edited 2012-10-17 15:48
    Hi LawrenceL,

    Yes, now that the product has evolved to its retail form, I'm jumping in and working on updated documentation. This summer our intern Brian so kindly built an ELEV-8 with Nick's guidance, and took pictures along the way. I'm in the process of shaping his pictures and accompanying narrative into step-by-step instructions, interleaved with the assembly diagrams that are currently a separate PDF. I don't have a definite release date for that, but I will reply here when I have posted it.

    -Steph
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-17 15:59
    David Betz wrote: »
    Does anyone have a maintenence-friendly wiring harness design? I recently reassembled my Elev-8 kit but realized that I had forgotten to calibrate the ESCs before I installed them in the chassis. The way I made the harness this pretty much requires disassembling the entire quadcopter to disconnect the ESCs from the motors and disconnect all but one from the battery in order to run the calibrate sequence. There must be a better way of doing this.

    I won't claim this to be better but I made up a six way splitter so that I could calibrate all ESCs at once. Six because I intend to make a hex someday.

    Got to 6:12 to see the relevant part - or just click the link. Don't know why but the embedded player is not honoring the timestamp so I can't get it to not start at the beginning.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOWb-43FD08#t=372s
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-18 07:29
    I'm not going to go into the gory details but I need to get a new set of motors for my Elev-8 kit. The ones I currently have are red but I notice that the new kits come with yellow motors. I'm not particularly concerned with the asthetics of having two different motor colors but I'm wondering if it would be better to have a matched set of four new motors rather than mixing the older red motors with the newer yellow ones? Are these new motors identical in performance to the original red ones or would it be safer to have a matched set of the newer ones rather than a mixture of the two?

    Also, is this the motor that is used in the current Elev-8 kit?

    http://www.parallax.com/Store/Robots/FlyingPlatforms/tabid/964/CategoryID/96/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/814/Default.aspx
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-10-18 07:57
    David Betz wrote: »
    I'm not going to go into the gory details but I need to get a new set of motors for my Elev-8 kit. The ones I currently have are red but I notice that the new kits come with yellow motors. I'm not particularly concerned with the asthetics of having two different motor colors but I'm wondering if it would be better to have a matched set of four new motors rather than mixing the older red motors with the newer yellow ones? Are these new motors identical in performance to the original red ones or would it be safer to have a matched set of the newer ones rather than a mixture of the two?

    Also, is this the motor that is used in the current Elev-8 kit?

    http://www.parallax.com/Store/Robots/FlyingPlatforms/tabid/964/CategoryID/96/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/814/Default.aspx

    David,

    My ELEV-8 also had red motors. Now half of them are black. Turnigy changed several things about the red motors (magnet size, housing thickness) and now sell them painted black. I've flown my ELEV-8 with two red and two black motors but I don't think you want to mix and match with other motors that are not really similar.

    I think the current yellow motors being used are not as powerful as the previous red (or black) motors and wouldn't work well unless you replaced all four motors.

    I'd like to know why the motors of the ELEV-8 were changed. From reading the comments at HobbyKing, it looks like the red motors weren't available for while. The change may have been motivated by lack of supply of the original motors.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2012-10-18 14:58
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    I'd like to know why the motors of the ELEV-8 were changed. From reading the comments at HobbyKing, it looks like the red motors weren't available for while. The change may have been motivated by lack of supply of the original motors.

    Hey Duane- Nick or Kevin would have to answer this question, but one contributing factor is certainly HobbyKing's availability of the original RED Turnigy 2217. Their unsteady supply, lack of timely delivery and shipping costs were likely factors that didn't mesh well with our desires to work with suppliers who have known lead times and pricing. Without this level of automation in our MRP (material requisition planning) system we have a bunch of "exceptions" that require manual intervention. Can't run a business that way.

    I'm pretty sure there are some technical reasons for the switch, too. Chances are the replacement motor has the same rating and comes from a more reputable source. I can guess...

    The Turnigy 2217s have a few unique design issues for quadcopters. First, they rely on a small circ clip to keep the outrunner case on. I've also noticed a few bearing issues with them that don't exist on the newer motors. And finally, some 2217s allow their outrunner case to ride higher on the shaft, and that can lead to some dangerous motor oscillations.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-18 21:40
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Hey Duane- Nick or Kevin would have to answer this question, but one contributing factor is certainly HobbyKing's availability of the original RED Turnigy 2217. Their unsteady supply, lack of timely delivery and shipping costs were likely factors that didn't mesh well with our desires to work with suppliers who have known lead times and pricing. Without this level of automation in our MRP (material requisition planning) system we have a bunch of "exceptions" that require manual intervention. Can't run a business that way.

    I'm pretty sure there are some technical reasons for the switch, too. Chances are the replacement motor has the same rating and comes from a more reputable source. I can guess...

    The Turnigy 2217s have a few unique design issues for quadcopters. First, they rely on a small circ clip to keep the outrunner case on. I've also noticed a few bearing issues with them that don't exist on the newer motors. And finally, some 2217s allow their outrunner case to ride higher on the shaft, and that can lead to some dangerous motor oscillations.
    Hi Ken,

    Thanks for the explanation. I think I'll order a set of the yellow motors from Parallax to replace my red ones since I currently only have three working motors. It's becoming increasingly obvious that I need to be far more careful with the way I handle the Elev-8. However, I'm determined not to let this beat me! :-)
  • Nick ErnstNick Ernst Posts: 138
    edited 2012-10-19 09:07
    The old red Turnigy 2217's were replaced due to the time that it took for HobbyKing to get the order to us. We tried to compensate for this time by extending our lead time on an order, but we were still met with delays in receiving our orders. The new orange motors were chosen because of their lower profile and slightly higher kv rating, which produces a little smoother flight. The new motors are a little faster as they are rated at 1000kv, and the Turnigy motors were around 875 or 900 if memory serves me correct! I would not recommend flying mismatched motors together, as they are rated differently and may cause your Elev-8 to fly in ways that were not intended!
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-10-19 14:31
    Nick Ernst wrote: »
    The old red Turnigy 2217's were replaced due to the time that it took for HobbyKing to get the order to us. We tried to compensate for this time by extending our lead time on an order, but we were still met with delays in receiving our orders. The new orange motors were chosen because of their lower profile and slightly higher kv rating, which produces a little smoother flight. The new motors are a little faster as they are rated at 1000kv, and the Turnigy motors were around 875 or 900 if memory serves me correct! I would not recommend flying mismatched motors together, as they are rated differently and may cause your Elev-8 to fly in ways that were not intended!

    Are these the correct motors for the Elev-8?

    http://www.parallax.com/Store/Robots/FlyingPlatforms/tabid/964/CategoryID/96/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/814/Default.aspx
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-10-19 16:15
    David Betz wrote: »

    Hopefully someone from Parallax will comfirm, but I'm pretty sure those are the motors currently used in the ELEV-8.

    If you're patient, you can get them from HobbyKing. I think these are the same motors (I'm also hoping for a comfirmation on this too).
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-20 12:43
    Here's an example why you never fly over people. In the video you see a very popular multi rotor stabilization system (DJI WooKong) experience a firmware bug.
  • Rob_WRob_W Posts: 32
    edited 2012-10-21 03:38
    dmagnus wrote: »
    Once again, I am highly disappointed with Hoverfly and their software. I have yet to attempt to use their Setup Client without having numerous problems.
    Yesterday, I downloaded the Firmware update client (1.0.0.29) and installed the latest firmware ( v4.3.800 - I have the PRO and GPS boards). The firmware update went just fine with both boards.
    One of the things that you have to do with the new firmware is recalibrate everything.
    I fired up the Setup Client, which is considerably changed from the previous version. One of my big complaints with Hoverfly is their lack of help in running their software. They seem to think that we should automatically know exactly what, and more importantly, in what order to do the various calibrations, setups, etc. Nowhere can I find a checklist or instructions on how to do the whole job.
    Plus, the software doesn't seem to work. A good example:
    I did find something that instructed me to "disable" the temprature compensation, accelerometer and compass compensations. I did so. The it said to do the accelerometer calibration (this is the second thing on the screen after the temp calibration, which you would think would be the first thing). I accomplished the accelerometer calibration, then let the quad sit for about a half hour while I went out to buy a hair dryer for the temp calibration. The unit has to sit, unconnected for at least 15 minutes prior to temp calibration - which means that after you do the accelerometer you have to take at leastt a 15 minute break before you can continue. Anyway, when I got back from purchasing a hair dryer I proceeded with the temp calibration. I followed the very limited instructions. They have you answer a bunch of questions... "Is it unconnected now?", "you have to make sure it doesn't move", etc. The final thing is are you ready to start. Hold a hair dryer on high, fan medium from 3-5 feet from the board so the temprature calibration can proceed. I sat there for 20 minutes, holding the stupid hair dryer and nothing ever happened. I finally gave up. Of course, there was nobody available on the phone on Saturday. I've about had it with these bozos. I think they have a great product, but they really need someone to design, build and provide instructions for their clilent software. As a developer, I'm appalled at the lack of professionalism in this area of their efforts. Has anybody ever successfully completed the temp calibration on a PRO board?
    Don
    I found this link on rcgroups.com: https://hoverflytech.zendesk.com/entries/21939088-pro-gps-firmware-setup-update-v4-3-860
    Maybe it will help with your boards connectivity issues.
  • dmagnusdmagnus Posts: 271
    edited 2012-10-21 12:23
    There are no connectivity issues. The board connected just fine, but wouldn't calibrate. I finally sent the board in to Hoverfly on an RMA - they think the gyro(s) went bad. Apparently this has happened before.
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