Propeller C3 update
AndreL
Posts: 1,004
As many of you know we have been working on a new "Credit Card Computer" Propeller application board called the C3. The product is complete and now in Parallax manufacturing. I wanted to post some pics of it, so you can take a look at the final product.
The specs once again are:
* Prop + 64K EEPROM with socketed XTAL.
* FTDI USB port for programming and serial.
* Dual 1.5A - 3.3/5V supplies with USB powered and external 2.1mm power jack.
* Micro VGA port along with composite A/V.
* 1 PS/2 port.
* 1 MB SPI FLASH.
* (2) 32Kx8 SPI SRAMS.
* 2-Channel MCP3202 A/D
* Micro SD card interface.
* Headers exporting out IO, Power, etc.
* 4 convenient "servo port" headers with heavy capping to support directly driving servos.
* SPI bus system to minimize IO usage on peripherals like SD, FLASH, A/D, and SRAMS.
The idea of the C3 is to be a really powerful application board for the Propeller, not so much a development board that you learn on, not to say this isn't great for learning. But, this is great since you can put it in an application, work with it on your laptop with no power supply (since its USB powered as well as external). And we are building a "shield" daughterboard as well that mounts on top of it to give you more room to put hardware and your own stuff.
Also, one of the pics shows the "break away" mounting tabs. Instead of making the board bigger to support mounting holes, we decided to give you the best of both worlds, keep the board small with tabs. If you want the mounting holes, use them, if not, you just snap them off -- regardless there is a central mounting hole in the middle of the board.
Andre'
The specs once again are:
* Prop + 64K EEPROM with socketed XTAL.
* FTDI USB port for programming and serial.
* Dual 1.5A - 3.3/5V supplies with USB powered and external 2.1mm power jack.
* Micro VGA port along with composite A/V.
* 1 PS/2 port.
* 1 MB SPI FLASH.
* (2) 32Kx8 SPI SRAMS.
* 2-Channel MCP3202 A/D
* Micro SD card interface.
* Headers exporting out IO, Power, etc.
* 4 convenient "servo port" headers with heavy capping to support directly driving servos.
* SPI bus system to minimize IO usage on peripherals like SD, FLASH, A/D, and SRAMS.
The idea of the C3 is to be a really powerful application board for the Propeller, not so much a development board that you learn on, not to say this isn't great for learning. But, this is great since you can put it in an application, work with it on your laptop with no power supply (since its USB powered as well as external). And we are building a "shield" daughterboard as well that mounts on top of it to give you more room to put hardware and your own stuff.
Also, one of the pics shows the "break away" mounting tabs. Instead of making the board bigger to support mounting holes, we decided to give you the best of both worlds, keep the board small with tabs. If you want the mounting holes, use them, if not, you just snap them off -- regardless there is a central mounting hole in the middle of the board.
Andre'
1376 x 1200 - 137K
1679 x 1200 - 194K
1778 x 1200 - 135K
1819 x 1200 - 266K
Comments
- entire design to be open-sourced and double as a Propeller reference
- includes customer requests for SRAM and SD card interface
- I/O pin designation compatible with other Parallax designs
- will supply with a Parallax laser-cut enclosure for stand-alone projects
- priced between $49.99 and $79.99 depending on our internal labor/BOM costs
- availability mid-November, early December
The USB-powered aspect will be great for those who travel with Propellers - program it easily on an airplane, train, or wherever you're going without providing external power supplies. The very small size (credit card) really helps on the portability side of things. At last check it fit within an Altoids tin.
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
The Altiods fit is a deal breaker!
Jim
I would have thought that was the norm now.
Jim
The USB powered option is a great point.
Do you plan to offer a half assembled board (with TH to be home soldered) or a to be assembled one?
A hobbyist could enjoy the assy and save a little bit doing that..
Massimo
Looks like a great (and very small) board - I hope you sell a lot of them.
FYI David added C3 drivers to my VMCOG, so C3 will be able to run ZOG, ZiCog and all future VMCOG compatible software, and as VMCOG is MIT licensed, feel free to distribute it with C3.
Regards,
Bill
I think this little board will be a winner!
Regards,
Bill
p.s.
Frankly, given distributor margins, I think you will be selling at $79 - unless you are doing it as a loss leader.
I love it!
KK
PS: When it comes out, I know I'll be getting one sometime thereafter.
It's a very nice board. I wish Andre' and Parallax much success.
I'm impressed with your price point to. $49 for all of that is a deal.
Bill, you are so correct. Hopefully our customers will always be so understanding. Building products with components sourced from Digi-Key, Mouser, Future and whoever else has a high cost (and the very real benefit of consistency on subsequent builds). And nothing compares to California labor for manufacturing. Customers don't complain, but sometimes they don't buy because of costs. This product will have a high retail and for good reason. Since the product is open-sourced it might even be helpful for others on this forum to know about the real costs:
Design/engineering: $ 20,000
Bill of materials setup 5,000
Documentation costs 10,000
Prototype costs 3,000
P&P programming/setup 2,000
======
Total 40,000 and no product has even shipped
Per unit BOM costs: 30
Manufacturing labor/kitting 10
======
Unit cost 40
I didn't mention the initial inventory costs.
Retail price may be $79, but the average selling price could be more about $55 given distributor discounts.
You can figure out how many you need to sell in order to break-even and have a reasonable return on investment. Somewhere between 2-5K units sound about right?
What about lowering costs by building this in China? Not a good idea with this particular design. The very specific choice of components and fairly low-volume dictate American-made manufacturing, not to mention other management costs.
This isn't to say we (and you) shouldn't be involved in such designs. This is what we do at Parallax, and what many of you do for a living so you know the facts as well as we do. But for the newcomer it is so important to understand the details in learning how to make these products a business success.
The above is a very calculated approach that could help with pricing a product like C3, but Parallax must also look carefully at our marketing intent with the design - to inspire customers to consider the Propeller for whole-system designs, or to sell hardware at a profit? The former is usually a loss-leader - something that excites all of us but ends up on the EOL radar too early in the life cycle. It's always best to make sure a product can have a reasonable return on investment unless it's a clear printer/inkjet refill nexus. Sure, this sells chips, but how many more are sold because our customers bought a C3? Answer this for me if you could, please.
At least from my perspective . . .
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
This is EXACTLY what I have been waiting for, and I have a great project for it that REALLY needs the additional ram.
WHY You not said You PAY so good for Design/engineering: $ 20,000
In my opinion ---> It is to much ---
I totally understand. Unfortunately, I have even lower volume, and higher BOM costs
I am looking forward to playing with a C3!
I think it will fit nicely in my netbook's case...
Bill
You are taking this out of context, Sapieha, and assuming we wrote Andre' a check for this amount. I'm sure Andre' would really like that, however. The engineering costs sometimes appear in the form of a check written to somebody else, or they're hidden in what's known as the burden cost (salary, health benefits, vacation costs, 401K matches, sabbaticals, software license fees!, etc) of our staff time (at least $100-150/hr). Because of your assumptions I am trying to share what's involved.
$20,000 / $150/hr = 133 hours. Try to achieve what it takes to bring a product like this to manufacturing within 133 hours.
This is what's involved in engineering costs for such a design:
- administrative costs if designed outside, such as writing an agreement
- specification prepared by Parallax and engineered by Andre'
- block diagram preparation with consideration to mechanical layouts
- schematic review and approval
- design cycle (2-3 prototypes)
- test procedure/hardware (ever thought about this one? - requires hardware, software, pas/fail)
Engineering costs associated with bringing a product to production are much more significant than laying out a PCB over the weekend and sending it to PCBExpress. Come on, you already know this. . . you've designed many boards and they look great.
When a product like this is ready to command the attention of a half-dozen manufacturing staff you better be sure that it is not only engineered completely, but that it's passed to them with significant support in terms of test procedure, hardware, etc.
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Sorry If That was disturbing You. I know it is maybe not so much in USA.
And I know all that You write on design stages
> BUT If You consider as I have about 1000$ in month = My Sickness Assurance money that maybe You understand my standpoint.
No disturbance caused here. That's one of my points - designing and manufacturing is expensive in the USA. And it's a big amount compared to what you live on every month. It's so much cost that I could loose sleep over it. It's a serious investment every time and one that we don't take lightly.
Always write what you want on these forums and will try to do the same. It's much more difficult for me to convey my opinion because I have to uphold a position under the name of Parallax. But we're here for all of you, and this forum is an open place so your thoughts are appreciated regardless of how anybody feels about them (within forum guidelines, of course).
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
THANKS for answers.
Next time think that maybe I can give You some DESIGN time on PCB's
Ps. No problems for me to write secrecy document.
Pricewise: At $79 I'll buy at least one. At $49 I'll probably buy more than two.
Is this cool C3's dimension about 3.38" x 2.13"?
Thanks
* The dimensions of the board are: ~75x55mm
* I tested it with 5 and 10mhz XTALs, its a propeller chip and none of the hardware relies on the clocking of the Prop, so you can put 6.25 or whatever else you want in there.
* Also, one other little tidbit, I designed the board so that you could add the Parallax NES adapter to it and plug into the headers and plug NES controllers in if you like
Andre'
Thanks for the answer on 6.25mhz support.
Jim
Thanks for releasing this info! It makes me feel much better (or worse depending) about spending over $1,000 on the Propeller ASC
Andre'
:rofl:
The C3 looks really great! Just what the power user needs. Nice work.