Those of us who have used plastic film with water know it doesn't form a nice parabolic surface. It tends to fold and distort. Duane
I didn't find anyone who has posted information or results concerning the use of telescope lenses made with plastic film and water. If you have research and experiments in this area, shedding some results would be interesting. What kind of images did you see through your water film lens and what speed was the lens? According to my research, the sagging water lens does not form a parabola. If you have information contrary, I would be interested.
Unfolding Folded Film for use in Large Mirrors and Lenses
It was mentioned that folds occur in films like Saran Wrap. Consider that much larger folded sheets of substrate are being successfully used in telescope objectives and they have many folds. The technique is to use a heating element to lessen the intentional folds that were made for ease of shipping. This makes the film useable in large telescopes, even ones that produce optical images. Undoubtedly the effect of these facet appearing sections is not much different than a mirror made with multiple smaller mirrors, usually in hexagonal configurations with existing spaces from one to the next. Another factor is the purposeful stretching that takes place in both reflector and refractor objectives that tends to smooth out the folds. Probably the folds never totally disappear though we'll need to try some experiments and find out.
And that probably also partly explains why radiation detectors are outlawed in NY city: the bankers don't want you imaging their buildings and detecting where their various vaults are located, etc. Apparently, given enough time, you can see through anything with this technology. Cool thing is, I'm fairly sure this is something a Propeller chip can handle: one of the first things I ever built with the Prop was a coincident photon counter, thanks to its built-in counters. Just place the detector plastic or crystals far apart in a line and start counting coincident pulses and you, too, can map out where all the billionaire bankers keep their gold - or our gold, as the case may be.
At the time the Hubble went up, there were numerous articles on the topic of how satellites could peer through homes and view activity inside. The articles never provided much technical detail and then they just stopped suddenly. Considering how the entire surface of Venus was mapped through heavy clouds using radar from the Earth, and how infrared can see through clothes and certain objects, there are undoubtedly other methods the military has explored.
By what means might such an announcement be forthcoming? IOW, how does the Big Brain (which from all implications in this thread must be sentient by now) communicate with you? Telepathically (per this quote from post #1557)? Or is it something more mundane, such as a video display? Or has the "Big Brain" become simply a metaphor for your own thoughts, desires, and ambitions (not that there's anything wrong with that)? I'm just trying to get a handle here on what you mean exactly when you refer to the "Big Brain" because ... well ... I'm just not sure anymore. Thanks, -Phil
Did you ever consult the internet on one topic and have it lead to another? I believe this is called surfing the internet. Let's say we're working on a spin cast mirror project and we find some sources on the internet about it. Suddenly, of great interest, substrates about foam glass appear. We decide to make the connection from spin cast mirrors to foam glass and incorporate it into our projects.
The Big Brain is similar in regards to the concept of surfing in that a point of Brain interest can make the connection from one important point to another. We began with one Propeller chip, which led to more, and through this remarkable associative property, have arrived recently at a Micro Space Program and all of its contents to now the ULT Ultra Large Telescope Project. This is how the Big Brain evolves.
The quote is a play on words that indicates I am "Big Brain" dependent of the fulfillment of these "surfings."
It is believed this is leading to a greater purpose, though we cannot know what. In the MSP it seemed that the Brain was preparing for a journey into space. Maybe so. But surprisingly this connected with several small telescopes, that now connected with the ULT Ultra Large Telescope and all of its unusual satellite projects. Now we have some talk about the edge of the Universe and bubbles. I don't know what it's all about. We all have our places. I am just a small low level subservient nut in the grand scheme of the Big Brain.
These do make nice portable telescopes. Martin, have you looked through one? The Maksutov can perform outstanding with its sharpness and high contrast. Some of the finest images I have ever seen were through various Maksutovs built by Howard Louth who worked as an engineer for Boeing. Those small telescopes are just like small Questars and regularly photo large sun granularity. Planetary and lunar imaging is spectacular. Generally these instruments are smaller but Howard had one around 11-inch size. It was portable and rolled out of his workshop on wheels. These are technically challenging to build so you pay for what you get.
I owned a medium quality achromat years ago, and seen images taken with an APO. They are nice because they have no central obstruction and they're light. APO's can be pricey, but you get what you pay for. The best image I've seen with a reasonable price is a long focus Newtonian with a minimally sized secondary. But the mount weighs a ton, so they'll tend to go unused unless you have a dog house from them. Ask me how I know. But from a dark site Jupiter is quite a sight through one.
The small Maksutovs (90mm to 127mm) made by Meade are all pretty compact, since they can mount alt/az they are light too. The quality is consumer grade, so keep expectations in check, but remember the atmosphere is the biggest source of problems, not the scope.
I didn't find anyone who has posted information or results concerning the use of telescope lenses made with plastic film and water. If you have research and experiments in this area, shedding some results would be interesting. What kind of images did you see through your water film lens and what speed was the lens? According to my research, the sagging water lens does not form a parabola. If you have information contrary, I would be interested.
Many years ago someone was developing spectacle lenses using that technique, for people in third-world countries. The water pressure was adjusted until the person could see properly. I don't know if the project was successful.
I owned a medium quality achromat years ago, and seen images taken with an APO. They are nice because they have no central obstruction and they're light. APO's can be pricey, but you get what you pay for. The best image I've seen with a reasonable price is a long focus Newtonian with a minimally sized secondary. But the mount weighs a ton, so they'll tend to go unused unless you have a dog house from them. Ask me how I know. But from a dark site Jupiter is quite a sight through one.
The small Maksutovs (90mm to 127mm) made by Meade are all pretty compact, since they can mount alt/az they are light too. The quality is consumer grade, so keep expectations in check, but remember the atmosphere is the biggest source of problems, not the scope.
They say a refractor is equal to twice the diameter of a reflector, so the 5-inch commercial refractor performed like a 10-inch reflector. But I don't understand how this expensive telescope was filled with achromatic aberration. Prior to that I viewed through a precision Unitron 4-inch which was a new experience, with Saturn it was so sharp and clear showing detail on the planet and many ring systems. After that time period I went to Stoney Ridge for incredibly larger telescopes and the views were so spectacular that words cannot describe.
John Dobson could readily handle his F6 24-inch telescope and took it to star parties and to parks on mountains. He told a story where he slept inside the telescope tube. We looked at planets and deep sky together, which were better than a Hubble photo and superior to long time exposures of M27, M13 and others. On Big Bear mountain, the seeing was spectacular. John's favorite remarks were, "pull the telescope towards you.." as its tracking was human powered.
At Stoney Ridge, the 30-inch performance was spectacular. I went up to the eyepiece on a motor powered lift. But when I was up there observing, someone tripped on the power cord and the lift was frozen with no power, and I could not get down. I happily observed a massive cloud ball of detail - Jupiter, until someone realized I was stuck and ended my observing session but began my career by plugging in the cord.
Many years ago someone was developing spectacle lenses using that technique, for people in third-world countries. The water pressure was adjusted until the person could see properly. I don't know if the project was successful.
It was a chance conversation on March 23 1985 ("in the afternoon, as I recall") that first started Josh Silver on his quest to make the world's poor see. A professor of physics at Oxford University, Silver was idly discussing optical lenses with a colleague, wondering whether they might be adjusted without the need for expensive specialist equipment, when the lightbulb of inspiration first flickered above his head. What if it were possible, he thought, to make a pair of glasses which, instead of requiring an optician, could be "tuned" by the wearer to correct his or her own vision? Might it be possible to bring affordable spectacles to millions who would never otherwise have them? More than two decades after posing that question, Silver now feels he has the answer. The British inventor has embarked on a quest that is breathtakingly ambitious, but which he insists is achievable - to offer glasses to a billion of the world's poorest people by 2020.Some 30,000 pairs of his spectacles have already been distributed in 15 countries, but to Silver that is very small beer. Within the next year the now-retired professor and his team plan to launch a trial in India which will, they hope, distribute 1 million pairs of glasses.
Not Linear
The postings for Brain projects in the thread are not linear and several projects may be ongoing at any one time. For example, construction of the the liquid telescope is ongoing at this time as is the the constructing of the Fly Eye objective and telescope (along with others).
MLT
The MLT Multiple Lens Telescope project has reached it goals. Mirrors were added to the multiple twin lens focuser but this was not written up. A number of experiments ensued regarding the focus of multiple primary double convex lens. This information can be used in the construction of the ULT Ultra large Telescope, an ongoing project.
Fly Eye
There's not much posted about the Fly Eye but this project is being built and in the works. Parts are being collected, the design is hashed and rehashed, and there's some planning of specific new Telescope System Design Programs.
Liquid Telescope Systems Design Program
A works is in progress for a liquid telescope computer program to calculate details for mirror diameter, water volume, and effects of F-Ratio and focal length. IOW you put so much water in a certain diameter, get a nice plano convex objective and determine the focus. Very cool doing this ahead of time with a design program.
Resin Cast Telescope
The topic of spin cast resin mirrors has not appeared in specific posts although work continues toward a resin cast mirror. This is in a new chemical analysis phase.
Membrane Telescopes (Liquid and Hydraulic)
The analysis project of thin objective membranes, not only for liquid mirrors but for dry hydraulic mirrors is in the works. No postings on hydraulic mirrors.
Merging Projects
Some projects may combine with others. For example, it's possible the ULT will have massive objectives which are single mirrors leading up to even larger objectives in quantity for a MMT design.
MMT Scientific Investigation
More experiments are required with the MMT designs and we are waiting for acquisition of parts and materials. The smaller designs are anticipated to have manual tweak buttons while the larger designs will be controlled by Parallax Propeller chips and the Big Brain.
Page 75
1481 The Relative Safety of Micro Space
1482 Parallax Propeller or BASIC Stamp
1483 Bamse
1484 Ttailspin
1485 Prop or Stamp Vote?
1486 The Micro Space Tether
1487 Heavy Launch Rocket Launcher Complex
1488 Big Brain Performs Engine Tests
for the Micro Space Program Heavy Lift Launcher & Engine
1489 New Engine Design
1490 Big Brain Discovers Micro Space Zero-G
How to Make Weightlessness in Micro Space
1491 Measuring the Effects of Zero-G in Micro Space
with the Parallax Mesmic 2125 Accelerometer
1492 Duane Degn, nunchuck accelerometer zero-g
1493 Humanoido, weightlessness
1494 Measuring the Effects of Zero-G in Micro Space
with the Parallax Hitachi H48C Tri-Axis Accelerometer Module
1495 Humanoido, data logging, softclock, rocket flight time
1496 Duane Degn, data logger
1497 The Micronaut Space Program
Big Brain Rocket Program and the Selection of Tiny Astronauts
1498 Micro Space Data Logger
1499 The New MSR-01A Rocket
A modified MSR-01 for Launching Micronauts into Micro Space
1500 Large Rocket Launcher
Page 76
1501 Pressure Tank & PSI Meter Add on
1502 Electronic Micro Space Pressure Readings
with the Parallax VTI SCP1000 Pressure Sensor
1503 Brain Dreaming with Terragen Classic
1504 Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Robotic options with a Propeller chip and servo
1505 The First WYSIWYG Rocket Balloon
1506 The Brain's New Micro Space RB-01 Rocket Balloon
1507 The Brain's Hot Energy Fuel
1508 Big Brain Micro Space Transporter
Beam things from the Earth to a Micro Space Craft
1509 DIY Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Propeller Chips & Robotic Rockets
1510 DIY Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Propeller Chips & Robotic Rockets
1511 Experiments with AntiVortexing
Reduce or Cancel Vortex
1512 The First Anti Vortex Grid
1513 Improving the Portable Rocket Launcher
Mod 1: Valve and Pressure Tubing Modification
1514 Big Brain Tips for Rocketry MSP Peripherals
1515 Portable MSP Rocket Launcher Dual Purpose
1516 Shocking Dismemberment of the Big Brain Leads to "Distributed Braining"
1517 Distributed Braining & Consequences
A new era begins in Big Brain development
1518 Source for Inexpensive Fuel Line Pressure Valves
1519 International Source for Super Duct Tape
1520 Bigger Brain Robot Rockets
Popular Mechanics tells how
Page 77
1521 Ajward
1522 Duane Degn, Gorilla tape
1523 Humanoido, duct tape
1525 Gorilla Tape
1525 Micronaut4
Meet the Micronauts
Selecting the Next Crew to Go Up Into Micro Space
1526 Developing a Future Generation of Big Brain Robot Machine Micronauts
1527 Big Brain Applications in Astronomy
The merging of Propeller and Telescope
1528 Can the Propeller Brain Make a Larger ULT Telescope?
1529 Color Vision Recognition
1529 Analyzing the Big Brain's ULT
Telescope Systems Design Program Part 1
1530 Analyzing the Big Brain's ULT
Telescope Systems Design Program Part 1
1531 Big Brain Spin Casts 1st Micro Telescope Mirror using Spin Rotation
1532 Brain Finds a Use for over 3,200 Controlling I/Os
Aligning the ULT in MMT Configuration with a Propeller Brain
1533 Big Brain Evolution
Shifting Interests Leading to the World's Largest Telescope
Available to Amateur Astronomers
1534 Big Brain - Solving Riddles of the Universe
with ULT Ultra Large Robotic Telescope
1535 Big Brain Starts Its Own Optics Institute
Optics Sets for Robotic Propeller Driven Telescopes
1536 ElectricAye, liquid telescope mirrors
1537 Spinning Liquid Mirrors
1538 Robotic Spinning Water Mirror
1539 Robotic MMT
Computer Systems Design Program Part 2
1540 Iardom
Page 78
1541 Understanding the Big Brain
Reliability, Array, Isolation, Troubleshooting, Self Test
1542 Machine Brain Redundancy
1543 Big Brain Opts for Mirror Folding
1544 Big Brain Goes with FFL Fast Focal Length Technology
1545 Telescope Systems Design Program
Part 3 - MMT Mutiple Mirror Robotic Telescopes
1546 Combining ULT and MSP
Combination of Ultra Large Telescope and Micro Space Program
Innovates a New Technology
1547 Big Brain Invents Massive ULT Crater Telescope
1548 MSP Adaptive Tethering
1549 Measure Brain Matter Electric Speed
1550 Big Brain Invents VARFL with a Propeller
The World's First Variable Robotic Newtonian Telescope Mirror
1551 Intelligent Glass - Robotic Invention of the Century
1552 Duane Degn
1553 VARFL & iGLASS
1554 How to Connect a Propeller Brain
to Make Intelligent Glass
1555 Intelligent Glass Advanced Application
Adaptive Optics
1556 Mirror Folding Notes
1557 The First Refractor MLT Project
Not MMT, it's MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1558 Prepping the Telescope Systems Design Program
History, Directory
Integer sections convert to PropBASIC
1559 A New Walking Telescope Secondary
Robotic Optic in Motion During Transforming
1560 ElectricAye, diffraction effects
Page 79
1561 Humanoido
1562 Humanoido
1563 ElectricAye
1564 Humanoido
1565 Fly Eye Telescope
A million inch diameter refractor for space applications?
1566 Humanoido
1567 Glass Multiple Lens Telescope
Results of MLT Experiments
1568 The Walking Telescope - Determining Walk distance
Which servo to use - standard or continuous rotation?
1569 A Night Out
with the MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1570 Spectacular Performance Images from the MLT
Multiple Lens Telescope
1571 The Secret of the MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1572 Adding More Elements to a MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1573 Humanoido, AO, active optics
1574 ElectricAye
1575 Humanoido
1576 Phil
1577 Humanoido
1578 ElectricAye
1579 Humanoido
1580 OSLO Optical Software
Page 80
1581 Fresnel Lenses & Cheap Lenses
1582 Build a James Web Space Telescope or ULT
1583 ElectricAye
1584 The Future of iGlass Aligns with Propeller
1585 Humanoido
1586 Index Spotlight on PIR
1587 Cryogenics Fault Line Freeze
1588 Humanoido
1589 Robotic Telescope Systems Design Program - Part 4
How deep is your curve?
1590 Tips for building your own MLT
1591 The Big Brain's Water Universe Telescope
Use One Million Drops of Water to View the Universe
1592 Build This "Million Drops" Liquid Telescope
Runs on Water Fuel
1593 Rating a Water Drop Telescope
1594 ElectricAye
1595 Humanoido
1596 Phil
1597 Humanoido
1598 Phil
1599 Humanoido
1600 Phil
Page 81
1601 Humanoido
1602 Humanoido
1603 Phil
1604 Martin_H
1605 Phil
1606 Duane Degn
1607 Martin_H
1608 Martin_H
1609 Erco
1610 ElectricAye
1611 Optical or Not Optical
1612 MMT MLT Accuracy
1613 Humanoido
1614 Expect the Unexpected
1615 Documentation
1616 Phil
1617 Achromatism Technique
1618 Conceptual Development
1619 Membrane Quality in Liquid Telescopes
1620 Maksutov Telescope
Page 82
1621 JMI Wheely Bar
1622 Humanoido, plastic film
1623 Unfolding Folded Film for use in Large Mirrors and Lenses
1624 Humanoido
1625 Big Brain Surfing
1626 Martin_H
1627 Leon, eyeglasses
1628 Humanoido
1629 Eyeglasses
1630 Brain Project Multitasking
Fly Eye Telescope, Water Telescope, Multiple Lens Telescope, Ultra Large Telescope, Resin Cast Mirror Telescope, Hydraulic Mirror Membrane Telescope, MMT & ULT Merging Telescopes
1631
Big Brain Time Line Evolution Surfing Associative Property & Time Line
One interesting project is to time line the evolution of the Big Brain. As we know, the Brain evolves by Surfing Associative Property where one current topical project of immense interest is joined to another. IOW, one thing leads to another.
In this proposed study, brain posts would be assigned a topic and the association would be plotted and followed through on a time line. It would show how the big brain began with a single Parallax Propeller chip, and led to multiple Propellers and so on. The time line could more clearly show the reasoning of Big Brain's evolution.
Here's the starter time-line gathered from thread page 1 to page 5.
09 13 2010 Experiments
09 17 2010 Prop Chip Faster Than Specs
10 14 2010 Designing with AM Algorithm Machine
10 21 2010 Multi Brain Concept
11 19 2010 Interface, Hybrid Processors
11 20 2010 Brain Stem
12 21 2010 Serial Software Interface
12 21 2010 Brain Base
12 24 2010 Brain Blob 5 Boards
12 24 2010 Increased to 81 Cores
12 24 2010 Brain Blob Software (Blobber)
12 24 2010 Open Source
12 25 2010 Reduced Power Consumption
12 25 2010 Brain Pins Connector Array
12 27 2010 Data LED
12 27 2010 Definitions Established
12 27 2010 Power Injection Jumpers
12 27 2010 Brain Span (7 boards, 49 cores)
12 27 2010 Blobatory Breadboard Retrofit
12 27 2010 Brain Blob Specs Established
12 29 2010 Co-Software Begins
12 29 2010 Hybrid Design
12 30 2010 Self Loader Development
12 30 2010 LED Mod
12 30 2010 Test Software Written
12 30 2010 Power Regulator Mod
12 31 2010 Growth Spurt
12 31 2010 Brain Blob Mods Complete
12 31 2010 Test Software for Data Light
12 31 2010 Decoupling Capacitors Installed
12 31 2010 Testing Phase Begins
12 31 2010 Troubleshooting Phase Begins
12 31 2010 All Boards Fully Operational
01 01 2010 Revised Test Software
01 03 2010 Software Test 3
01 03 2010 Boards Attached
01 03 2010 Power Testing
continue with post 98 on page 5
In review, it would be a good idea to go back and record the number of Propeller chips by date in the machine to see the natural progression evolution.
Another method to correcting achromatic aberration is to introduce a small corrector lens near the focal point. This concludes the four ways to correct achromatism in the type of low cost lenses that we are experimenting with. As previously mentioned we only need to use one simple method to get the results required.
Work is progressing on a series of smaller liquid telescopes before finalizing the details of the largest one. This includes testing various membrane materials, their micro characteristics, stretching based on load capacity, homogeneity based on primary mounting, X-Y substrata deviations, the summation of refractive indices when contacted with the specific liquid, how the detector is chosen, how to mount the detector, how to focus the image under the lens, and the degree to which the F-Ratio can be varied.
To calculate the designs for numerous Liquid Telescopes, a new Telescope Systems Design Program is in development with the added ability to determine specific focal lengths based on diameters and liquid volume. This would be completed today however I'm now traveling without a computer. We will need to know how to tune the FL based on liquid volume or know how to adjust the shape of the lens based on other parameters. I should have the first Liquid Telescope completed sometime today and will run the first battery of tests.
When Thomas Edison was in the process of inventing the light bulb, he qualitatively tried many different materials as filaments. He did not focus on quantitative numbers of the filament. He wisely knew one could become lost in the analysis of numbers and not see the light. Which Q you choose is certainly ok for the manner in which you conduct your scientific research. Now it has come to the attention of the Brain that some of you are not satisfied about the level of meat in your diet. Back off! The Brain knows too much meat in the diet will lead to clogged arteries and arteriosclerosis. Choose your own Q but give others the freedom to conduct their inventive research in the manner which they see fit.
For Phil and myself, this would be a more credible thread if there was more documentation provided.
As open source anyone may contribute to the research, projects, education of scientific concepts, and documentation. The parts I'm working on with the Big Brain follow a format described in a previous post. Remember the first post is often the introductory concept about a new idea and it's complete development may occur over the course of days, weeks or months. Often informational parts of these sub projects get posted in between other projects. It's best to use the index in some cases to collect together coherent posts. The Brain is fully capable of multitasking 20 or 30 of these subs at one time.
Results are in for the first built Water Telescope. A box was created with a 3.6 inch diameter aperture at the top. The bottom was removed. The four top corners were covered with double stick tape. A sheet of clear kitchen wrap was applied. Bottled water was poured onto the wrap.
A Plano convex water lens was expected. However, a double convex lens appeared, the top convex created by the waters surface tension. First the lens was inspected. It had 2 bubbles from the pouring. Touching each the bubbles popped. Two small pieces of box lint flew into the lens. Their effects were not noticeable. The lens looked like the finest lens, purely transparent with very bright and clear images.
How did it magnify? It's performance was remarkable, producing a regular well focussed bright colored images of about 7x when holding the telescope. The surface was highly reflective and formed excellent images of the light above and buildings outside the window.
The telescope performed well at about F2. Handling the scope when it's primed with water is not recommended. The water acts slippery and slides off to one side causing a spill. Any handling causes vibrations and ripples will appear on the lens surface. Control of the speed of the lens is currently being studied. For slower lens speed, the membrane stretching can be increased. For faster, the membrane is loosely attached. Some membrane wrinkles appeared on the lens side but their effects were negligible and cold be reduced or eliminated.
It's recommended to build a deepened waterproof cavity to avoid water spillage.
Regulating the Shape of a Liquid Lens by Hydraulics
For smaller liquid lenses it becomes more challenging to regulate the membrane surface. The weight of a small amount of water may be insufficient to stretch the membrane to the desired focal length.
Control over the shape of the membrane could regulate the lens speed, the focal length, and image focus. How to control the shape and sag?
By making the telescope into an air tight chamber, a small vacuum pump could adjust the internal air pressure. This in turn would change the shape of the membrane, thus controlling the focal ratio and other image parameters. It's recommended to install a pressure gauge and adjustable valve for calibrating the lens.
1st Water Lens Telescope Membrane Examination
Photos Description
None of the photos went through. I tried with email, cell phone and iPad. However I can provide the detailed docs for each photo.
There are nine total photos taken showing the first water lens telescope.
Photo 1 is cam roll indexed as 13 of 21. It shows the complete telescope from a top view during the lens filling process. About 4/5ths of the lens is water filled. The scope is tilted on purpose to clearly show this is notna Plano coves lens as might be expected but rather a double convex, on the top due to water surface tension.
Photo 14 of 21 is a close up shot showing the ceiling light reflected off the top surface of the lens. There are membrane irregularities around the perimeter. No effort is made to remove these wrinkles in this test telescope as the test is for center lens. The ceiling light shows good mag and crisp sharp detail. This verifies the lens surface at the top is convex and providing high resolution imagery.
Photo 18 of 21 is lens water filled. This experiment tests the function of the lens when tilted. The telescope must have some serious level surface alignment for best performance. Some edge wrinkles are visible on the membranes extreme edges. For the future telescope it is suggested to simply mask off these outer edges.
13 of 21 shows an effect not seen visually. The membrane appears to have a surface effect of parallel lines space equidistance apart. At F2, these effects on the formed image are not seen. It appears this type of membrane will perform well at high speeds. After some investigation it is found the parallel lines have nothing to do with the membrane. They are perhaps caused by the interfering wave patterns caused by diffraction grating effect between a window glass reflection and the window screening. This explains why, in the same lens photo, the image of the ceiling light is absent of this effect. In the study of remaining images, the effect is indeed caused by the membrane material. The reason the ceiling light was clear in the same image is because the image was located and formed by a different section of the membrane. The membrane is an inexpensive version of Saran Wrap from a Shanghai Chinese source.
If liquid conforms to the shape of the underlying surface and the shape of the top lens surface is formed by suface tension, the overall shape of the double convex lens my be one with complex surfaces. It is no different than putting together two Plano convex lenses together, each with different focal length and magnification. The combination works well.
It is possible to do an experiment to determine some shape of a true Plano convex water lens by making the membrane flat and measuring the curve created by water tension.
Membrane material was tried with varying amounts of water at varying weights. As the weight of the liquid increases, the number of wrinkles decrease. Small membrane telescopes may suffer wrinkles more than large membrane telescopes.
Again, this effect may have a simple remedy by converting the telescope to a hydro lens hydraulic actuated membrane telescope system. This would entail a system of of applied vacuum to the back side of the membrane to form it and pull it into shape when the weight of a small amount of water is insufficient to form the membrane.
In a rare find, a sheet of aluminized thin membrane Mylar was found in a grocery store. The mirror sheet is the inside backing of a 118 gram package of peanuts from Huaweiheng Foods. A section 5.6 x 6.6 inches was cut from the bag. This will make an experimental telescope mirror 5.5 inches diameter.
The Mylar is not perfect as it has a perceptible pattern from the manufacturing process and a slight imprint from the printed characters on the opposite side. There are some slight scratches made by movements of the brittle plastic insert during shipping and handling. The mirror is capable of forming grade B images and is excellent for testing various mylar-based telescope mirror functions.
The goal is to transfer some of the knowledge learned from the liquid membrane mirror to a dry hydraulic mirror. Current equipment produces air pressure from pumps for launching Micro Space Rockets but does not generate a vacuum. It's possible to reverse the pressure valve and create a kind of vacuum pump to evacuate the dry hydraulic telescope with the Mylar mirror.
Contact information for large sheets is
Hanzhou Huaweiheng Food Co., Ltd.
No. 74 West Xingqiao Street
Yuhang District, Hangzhou, China
Production Area
Hangzhou Zhejiang Province
Tel. 0571-86262585
Fax. 0571-86262589
Post Code 311100
...
In a rare find...the inside backing of a ...package of peanuts from Huaweiheng Foods....
'noido,
Dude, it just pains me to see you dorking around with aluminized mylar salvaged from a peanut package. Why not just order something from a proper supplier and have it shipped to your lab/apartment/Bat Cave?
Here's a link to something similar, though I can't vouch for the stuff since I've never used it, but maybe it will at least get you out of the Produce aisle: http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=568
And I'm guessing ebay would be a good place to shop, too.
'noido, Dude, it just pains me to see you dorking around with aluminized mylar salvaged from a peanut package. Why not just order something from a proper supplier and have it shipped to your lab/apartment/Bat Cave? Here's a link to something similar, though I can't vouch for the stuff since I've never used it, but maybe it will at least get you out of the Produce aisle: http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=568 And I'm guessing ebay would be a good place to shop, too.
Electric', I know, I know... Several people are looking for large rolls of this material for me locally but as you know, it must be made of the "right stuff." Small test telescopes are one thing but my requirements for larger telescopes are much more stringent. Plus travel has now taken me to a place that looks just like Gotham City and I doubt postal delivery can catch up to me when I'm wearing the Bat Cape.
Here's a neat and simple solution to the spillage problem with the first water lens telescope. Take one large water bottle and cut off the top and bottom. Keep a ring about .75 inch wide that can slip into the top tube section.
This will friction fit and attach/ hold the membrane to the telescope. Push it down into the bottle deep enough to make a lip to hold the water and give 3 inches above the water level. Adjust membrane tension. Seal with silicone if necessary. Use another identical water bottle over the top section to help prevent spills when moving the telescope around.
I think the term for "dry hydraulic" is pneumatic.
I read in a magazine (I think it was Model Airplane News), that the aluminized film used in "mylar balloons" is actually aluminized nylon.
In my observations of water surface tension, the convex shape is only prominent near the edges. The examples of using water as a lens I've seen are usually limited to water drops. If you're going to mask the edges anyway, I think you could probably consider the lens a plano convex.
Are you still working on spin casting? Ever since reading (about ten years ago) about spinning pools of mercury being used as a lens, I've wondered about spin casting. I think there are significant problems with trying to cast a resin mirror.
Besides the hardware and electronics involved there's also the problem of applying a reflective coating to the surface of the final cast. I'm not sure how you would make a reflective coating on a resin surface. I've played a little with casting (not spinning) resin prisms. I wanted to add a reflective coating to one of these prisms. My thought was to add the reflective film used on car windows but the person at Tap Plastics told that all plastics "out gas" and the film would likely develop bubbles rather quickly.
I'm very curious to know how you have or plan to add a reflective coating to any plastic surface you have in the past or may in the future cast. I have wondered about evaporative plating but that is not a simple process (I've seen it done). I'm not sure if bubbles would still form under a layer of the deposited metal.
Do you have pictures of this iGlass you've written about. Any images taken with plastic mirrors?
A new material membrane called Nan Ya Wrap was obtained for tests today. This comes in 30 cm wide rolls x 60 meters long which will make a large 12-inch diameter liquid lens. The source is Nan Ya Plastics Corporation of Taiwan. It's rated for 130 deg. C to -60 deg. C.
The quality of this material is similar to the previous material used in the H2O Telescope. Without tight stretch, a series of parallel manufacturing lines appear similar to the previous material, however this time another experiment was performed. The membrane was stretched extra tight and the lines disappeared.
This material type, which probably applies to most plastic kitchen wrap, responds best, i.e. a smoother surface results, when tightly stretched. To maintain this tight stretch will require another influence on the membrane in addition to water weight. This influence will be accomplished with a pneumatic mechanism working with a vacuum chamber that pulls the membrane taut when water loaded.
I think the term for "dry hydraulic" is pneumatic. I read in a magazine (I think it was Model Airplane News), that the aluminized film used in "mylar balloons" is actually aluminized nylon. In my observations of water surface tension, the convex shape is only prominent near the edges. The examples of using water as a lens I've seen are usually limited to water drops. If you're going to mask the edges anyway, I think you could probably consider the lens a plano convex. Duane
Thanks, I will use the correct term pneumatic. I have studied a Mylar reflective balloon and although reflective, the surface remains rough and diffuse. It is not surprising if it has a nylon surface.
I know the water drop lens is more curved at the edge but how far into the lens towards the center does the curve continue?
I plan an experiment with a wide band microscope and the existing H2O Telescope. A profile photo of the lens will be taken and then referenced to a straight line to determine the curve's extent. This will determine how much of the lens to mask or may raise some new questions.
Comments
I didn't find anyone who has posted information or results concerning the use of telescope lenses made with plastic film and water. If you have research and experiments in this area, shedding some results would be interesting. What kind of images did you see through your water film lens and what speed was the lens? According to my research, the sagging water lens does not form a parabola. If you have information contrary, I would be interested.
It was mentioned that folds occur in films like Saran Wrap. Consider that much larger folded sheets of substrate are being successfully used in telescope objectives and they have many folds. The technique is to use a heating element to lessen the intentional folds that were made for ease of shipping. This makes the film useable in large telescopes, even ones that produce optical images. Undoubtedly the effect of these facet appearing sections is not much different than a mirror made with multiple smaller mirrors, usually in hexagonal configurations with existing spaces from one to the next. Another factor is the purposeful stretching that takes place in both reflector and refractor objectives that tends to smooth out the folds. Probably the folds never totally disappear though we'll need to try some experiments and find out.
At the time the Hubble went up, there were numerous articles on the topic of how satellites could peer through homes and view activity inside. The articles never provided much technical detail and then they just stopped suddenly. Considering how the entire surface of Venus was mapped through heavy clouds using radar from the Earth, and how infrared can see through clothes and certain objects, there are undoubtedly other methods the military has explored.
Did you ever consult the internet on one topic and have it lead to another? I believe this is called surfing the internet. Let's say we're working on a spin cast mirror project and we find some sources on the internet about it. Suddenly, of great interest, substrates about foam glass appear. We decide to make the connection from spin cast mirrors to foam glass and incorporate it into our projects.
The Big Brain is similar in regards to the concept of surfing in that a point of Brain interest can make the connection from one important point to another. We began with one Propeller chip, which led to more, and through this remarkable associative property, have arrived recently at a Micro Space Program and all of its contents to now the ULT Ultra Large Telescope Project. This is how the Big Brain evolves.
The quote is a play on words that indicates I am "Big Brain" dependent of the fulfillment of these "surfings."
It is believed this is leading to a greater purpose, though we cannot know what. In the MSP it seemed that the Brain was preparing for a journey into space. Maybe so. But surprisingly this connected with several small telescopes, that now connected with the ULT Ultra Large Telescope and all of its unusual satellite projects. Now we have some talk about the edge of the Universe and bubbles. I don't know what it's all about. We all have our places. I am just a small low level subservient nut in the grand scheme of the Big Brain.
I owned a medium quality achromat years ago, and seen images taken with an APO. They are nice because they have no central obstruction and they're light. APO's can be pricey, but you get what you pay for. The best image I've seen with a reasonable price is a long focus Newtonian with a minimally sized secondary. But the mount weighs a ton, so they'll tend to go unused unless you have a dog house from them. Ask me how I know. But from a dark site Jupiter is quite a sight through one.
The small Maksutovs (90mm to 127mm) made by Meade are all pretty compact, since they can mount alt/az they are light too. The quality is consumer grade, so keep expectations in check, but remember the atmosphere is the biggest source of problems, not the scope.
Many years ago someone was developing spectacle lenses using that technique, for people in third-world countries. The water pressure was adjusted until the person could see properly. I don't know if the project was successful.
http://www.telescopebluebook.com/refractor/unitron.htm
http://www.unitronusa.com/reftele.htm
John Dobson could readily handle his F6 24-inch telescope and took it to star parties and to parks on mountains. He told a story where he slept inside the telescope tube. We looked at planets and deep sky together, which were better than a Hubble photo and superior to long time exposures of M27, M13 and others. On Big Bear mountain, the seeing was spectacular. John's favorite remarks were, "pull the telescope towards you.." as its tracking was human powered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobsonian_telescope
At Stoney Ridge, the 30-inch performance was spectacular. I went up to the eyepiece on a motor powered lift. But when I was up there observing, someone tripped on the power cord and the lift was frozen with no power, and I could not get down. I happily observed a massive cloud ball of detail - Jupiter, until someone realized I was stuck and ended my observing session but began my career by plugging in the cord.
http://stony-ridge.org/76cm-f6.htm
Wow! The project is reported to be very successful:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/dec/22/diy-adjustable-glasses-josh-silver
It was a chance conversation on March 23 1985 ("in the afternoon, as I recall") that first started Josh Silver on his quest to make the world's poor see. A professor of physics at Oxford University, Silver was idly discussing optical lenses with a colleague, wondering whether they might be adjusted without the need for expensive specialist equipment, when the lightbulb of inspiration first flickered above his head. What if it were possible, he thought, to make a pair of glasses which, instead of requiring an optician, could be "tuned" by the wearer to correct his or her own vision? Might it be possible to bring affordable spectacles to millions who would never otherwise have them? More than two decades after posing that question, Silver now feels he has the answer. The British inventor has embarked on a quest that is breathtakingly ambitious, but which he insists is achievable - to offer glasses to a billion of the world's poorest people by 2020.Some 30,000 pairs of his spectacles have already been distributed in 15 countries, but to Silver that is very small beer. Within the next year the now-retired professor and his team plan to launch a trial in India which will, they hope, distribute 1 million pairs of glasses.
Fly Eye Telescope, Water Telescope, Multiple Lens Telescope, Ultra Large Telescope, Resin Cast Mirror Telescope, Hydraulic Mirror Membrane Telescope, MMT & ULT Merging Telescopes
Not Linear
The postings for Brain projects in the thread are not linear and several projects may be ongoing at any one time. For example, construction of the the liquid telescope is ongoing at this time as is the the constructing of the Fly Eye objective and telescope (along with others).
MLT
The MLT Multiple Lens Telescope project has reached it goals. Mirrors were added to the multiple twin lens focuser but this was not written up. A number of experiments ensued regarding the focus of multiple primary double convex lens. This information can be used in the construction of the ULT Ultra large Telescope, an ongoing project.
Fly Eye
There's not much posted about the Fly Eye but this project is being built and in the works. Parts are being collected, the design is hashed and rehashed, and there's some planning of specific new Telescope System Design Programs.
Liquid Telescope Systems Design Program
A works is in progress for a liquid telescope computer program to calculate details for mirror diameter, water volume, and effects of F-Ratio and focal length. IOW you put so much water in a certain diameter, get a nice plano convex objective and determine the focus. Very cool doing this ahead of time with a design program.
Resin Cast Telescope
The topic of spin cast resin mirrors has not appeared in specific posts although work continues toward a resin cast mirror. This is in a new chemical analysis phase.
Membrane Telescopes (Liquid and Hydraulic)
The analysis project of thin objective membranes, not only for liquid mirrors but for dry hydraulic mirrors is in the works. No postings on hydraulic mirrors.
Merging Projects
Some projects may combine with others. For example, it's possible the ULT will have massive objectives which are single mirrors leading up to even larger objectives in quantity for a MMT design.
MMT Scientific Investigation
More experiments are required with the MMT designs and we are waiting for acquisition of parts and materials. The smaller designs are anticipated to have manual tweak buttons while the larger designs will be controlled by Parallax Propeller chips and the Big Brain.
Eight more pages are added to the Big Brain Index.
This brings the entire search index up to date.
Brain Index
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?124495-Fill-the-Big-Brain&p=977025&viewfull=1#post977025
Page 75
1481 The Relative Safety of Micro Space
1482 Parallax Propeller or BASIC Stamp
1483 Bamse
1484 Ttailspin
1485 Prop or Stamp Vote?
1486 The Micro Space Tether
1487 Heavy Launch Rocket Launcher Complex
1488 Big Brain Performs Engine Tests
for the Micro Space Program Heavy Lift Launcher & Engine
1489 New Engine Design
1490 Big Brain Discovers Micro Space Zero-G
How to Make Weightlessness in Micro Space
1491 Measuring the Effects of Zero-G in Micro Space
with the Parallax Mesmic 2125 Accelerometer
1492 Duane Degn, nunchuck accelerometer zero-g
1493 Humanoido, weightlessness
1494 Measuring the Effects of Zero-G in Micro Space
with the Parallax Hitachi H48C Tri-Axis Accelerometer Module
1495 Humanoido, data logging, softclock, rocket flight time
1496 Duane Degn, data logger
1497 The Micronaut Space Program
Big Brain Rocket Program and the Selection of Tiny Astronauts
1498 Micro Space Data Logger
1499 The New MSR-01A Rocket
A modified MSR-01 for Launching Micronauts into Micro Space
1500 Large Rocket Launcher
Page 76
1501 Pressure Tank & PSI Meter Add on
1502 Electronic Micro Space Pressure Readings
with the Parallax VTI SCP1000 Pressure Sensor
1503 Brain Dreaming with Terragen Classic
1504 Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Robotic options with a Propeller chip and servo
1505 The First WYSIWYG Rocket Balloon
1506 The Brain's New Micro Space RB-01 Rocket Balloon
1507 The Brain's Hot Energy Fuel
1508 Big Brain Micro Space Transporter
Beam things from the Earth to a Micro Space Craft
1509 DIY Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Propeller Chips & Robotic Rockets
1510 DIY Portable Micro Space Rocket Launcher
Propeller Chips & Robotic Rockets
1511 Experiments with AntiVortexing
Reduce or Cancel Vortex
1512 The First Anti Vortex Grid
1513 Improving the Portable Rocket Launcher
Mod 1: Valve and Pressure Tubing Modification
1514 Big Brain Tips for Rocketry MSP Peripherals
1515 Portable MSP Rocket Launcher Dual Purpose
1516 Shocking Dismemberment of the Big Brain Leads to "Distributed Braining"
1517 Distributed Braining & Consequences
A new era begins in Big Brain development
1518 Source for Inexpensive Fuel Line Pressure Valves
1519 International Source for Super Duct Tape
1520 Bigger Brain Robot Rockets
Popular Mechanics tells how
Page 77
1521 Ajward
1522 Duane Degn, Gorilla tape
1523 Humanoido, duct tape
1525 Gorilla Tape
1525 Micronaut4
Meet the Micronauts
Selecting the Next Crew to Go Up Into Micro Space
1526 Developing a Future Generation of Big Brain Robot Machine Micronauts
1527 Big Brain Applications in Astronomy
The merging of Propeller and Telescope
1528 Can the Propeller Brain Make a Larger ULT Telescope?
1529 Color Vision Recognition
1529 Analyzing the Big Brain's ULT
Telescope Systems Design Program Part 1
1530 Analyzing the Big Brain's ULT
Telescope Systems Design Program Part 1
1531 Big Brain Spin Casts 1st Micro Telescope Mirror using Spin Rotation
1532 Brain Finds a Use for over 3,200 Controlling I/Os
Aligning the ULT in MMT Configuration with a Propeller Brain
1533 Big Brain Evolution
Shifting Interests Leading to the World's Largest Telescope
Available to Amateur Astronomers
1534 Big Brain - Solving Riddles of the Universe
with ULT Ultra Large Robotic Telescope
1535 Big Brain Starts Its Own Optics Institute
Optics Sets for Robotic Propeller Driven Telescopes
1536 ElectricAye, liquid telescope mirrors
1537 Spinning Liquid Mirrors
1538 Robotic Spinning Water Mirror
1539 Robotic MMT
Computer Systems Design Program Part 2
1540 Iardom
Page 78
1541 Understanding the Big Brain
Reliability, Array, Isolation, Troubleshooting, Self Test
1542 Machine Brain Redundancy
1543 Big Brain Opts for Mirror Folding
1544 Big Brain Goes with FFL Fast Focal Length Technology
1545 Telescope Systems Design Program
Part 3 - MMT Mutiple Mirror Robotic Telescopes
1546 Combining ULT and MSP
Combination of Ultra Large Telescope and Micro Space Program
Innovates a New Technology
1547 Big Brain Invents Massive ULT Crater Telescope
1548 MSP Adaptive Tethering
1549 Measure Brain Matter Electric Speed
1550 Big Brain Invents VARFL with a Propeller
The World's First Variable Robotic Newtonian Telescope Mirror
1551 Intelligent Glass - Robotic Invention of the Century
1552 Duane Degn
1553 VARFL & iGLASS
1554 How to Connect a Propeller Brain
to Make Intelligent Glass
1555 Intelligent Glass Advanced Application
Adaptive Optics
1556 Mirror Folding Notes
1557 The First Refractor MLT Project
Not MMT, it's MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1558 Prepping the Telescope Systems Design Program
History, Directory
Integer sections convert to PropBASIC
1559 A New Walking Telescope Secondary
Robotic Optic in Motion During Transforming
1560 ElectricAye, diffraction effects
Page 79
1561 Humanoido
1562 Humanoido
1563 ElectricAye
1564 Humanoido
1565 Fly Eye Telescope
A million inch diameter refractor for space applications?
1566 Humanoido
1567 Glass Multiple Lens Telescope
Results of MLT Experiments
1568 The Walking Telescope - Determining Walk distance
Which servo to use - standard or continuous rotation?
1569 A Night Out
with the MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1570 Spectacular Performance Images from the MLT
Multiple Lens Telescope
1571 The Secret of the MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1572 Adding More Elements to a MLT Multiple Lens Telescope
1573 Humanoido, AO, active optics
1574 ElectricAye
1575 Humanoido
1576 Phil
1577 Humanoido
1578 ElectricAye
1579 Humanoido
1580 OSLO Optical Software
Page 80
1581 Fresnel Lenses & Cheap Lenses
1582 Build a James Web Space Telescope or ULT
1583 ElectricAye
1584 The Future of iGlass Aligns with Propeller
1585 Humanoido
1586 Index Spotlight on PIR
1587 Cryogenics Fault Line Freeze
1588 Humanoido
1589 Robotic Telescope Systems Design Program - Part 4
How deep is your curve?
1590 Tips for building your own MLT
1591 The Big Brain's Water Universe Telescope
Use One Million Drops of Water to View the Universe
1592 Build This "Million Drops" Liquid Telescope
Runs on Water Fuel
1593 Rating a Water Drop Telescope
1594 ElectricAye
1595 Humanoido
1596 Phil
1597 Humanoido
1598 Phil
1599 Humanoido
1600 Phil
Page 81
1601 Humanoido
1602 Humanoido
1603 Phil
1604 Martin_H
1605 Phil
1606 Duane Degn
1607 Martin_H
1608 Martin_H
1609 Erco
1610 ElectricAye
1611 Optical or Not Optical
1612 MMT MLT Accuracy
1613 Humanoido
1614 Expect the Unexpected
1615 Documentation
1616 Phil
1617 Achromatism Technique
1618 Conceptual Development
1619 Membrane Quality in Liquid Telescopes
1620 Maksutov Telescope
Page 82
1621 JMI Wheely Bar
1622 Humanoido, plastic film
1623 Unfolding Folded Film for use in Large Mirrors and Lenses
1624 Humanoido
1625 Big Brain Surfing
1626 Martin_H
1627 Leon, eyeglasses
1628 Humanoido
1629 Eyeglasses
1630 Brain Project Multitasking
Fly Eye Telescope, Water Telescope, Multiple Lens Telescope, Ultra Large Telescope, Resin Cast Mirror Telescope, Hydraulic Mirror Membrane Telescope, MMT & ULT Merging Telescopes
1631
Surfing Associative Property & Time Line
One interesting project is to time line the evolution of the Big Brain. As we know, the Brain evolves by Surfing Associative Property where one current topical project of immense interest is joined to another. IOW, one thing leads to another.
In this proposed study, brain posts would be assigned a topic and the association would be plotted and followed through on a time line. It would show how the big brain began with a single Parallax Propeller chip, and led to multiple Propellers and so on. The time line could more clearly show the reasoning of Big Brain's evolution.
Here's the starter time-line gathered from thread page 1 to page 5.
09 13 2010 Experiments
09 17 2010 Prop Chip Faster Than Specs
10 14 2010 Designing with AM Algorithm Machine
10 21 2010 Multi Brain Concept
11 19 2010 Interface, Hybrid Processors
11 20 2010 Brain Stem
12 21 2010 Serial Software Interface
12 21 2010 Brain Base
12 24 2010 Brain Blob 5 Boards
12 24 2010 Increased to 81 Cores
12 24 2010 Brain Blob Software (Blobber)
12 24 2010 Open Source
12 25 2010 Reduced Power Consumption
12 25 2010 Brain Pins Connector Array
12 27 2010 Data LED
12 27 2010 Definitions Established
12 27 2010 Power Injection Jumpers
12 27 2010 Brain Span (7 boards, 49 cores)
12 27 2010 Blobatory Breadboard Retrofit
12 27 2010 Brain Blob Specs Established
12 29 2010 Co-Software Begins
12 29 2010 Hybrid Design
12 30 2010 Self Loader Development
12 30 2010 LED Mod
12 30 2010 Test Software Written
12 30 2010 Power Regulator Mod
12 31 2010 Growth Spurt
12 31 2010 Brain Blob Mods Complete
12 31 2010 Test Software for Data Light
12 31 2010 Decoupling Capacitors Installed
12 31 2010 Testing Phase Begins
12 31 2010 Troubleshooting Phase Begins
12 31 2010 All Boards Fully Operational
01 01 2010 Revised Test Software
01 03 2010 Software Test 3
01 03 2010 Boards Attached
01 03 2010 Power Testing
continue with post 98 on page 5
In review, it would be a good idea to go back and record the number of Propeller chips by date in the machine to see the natural progression evolution.
Another method to correcting achromatic aberration is to introduce a small corrector lens near the focal point. This concludes the four ways to correct achromatism in the type of low cost lenses that we are experimenting with. As previously mentioned we only need to use one simple method to get the results required.
Work is progressing on a series of smaller liquid telescopes before finalizing the details of the largest one. This includes testing various membrane materials, their micro characteristics, stretching based on load capacity, homogeneity based on primary mounting, X-Y substrata deviations, the summation of refractive indices when contacted with the specific liquid, how the detector is chosen, how to mount the detector, how to focus the image under the lens, and the degree to which the F-Ratio can be varied.
To calculate the designs for numerous Liquid Telescopes, a new Telescope Systems Design Program is in development with the added ability to determine specific focal lengths based on diameters and liquid volume. This would be completed today however I'm now traveling without a computer. We will need to know how to tune the FL based on liquid volume or know how to adjust the shape of the lens based on other parameters. I should have the first Liquid Telescope completed sometime today and will run the first battery of tests.
Choose Your Q
When Thomas Edison was in the process of inventing the light bulb, he qualitatively tried many different materials as filaments. He did not focus on quantitative numbers of the filament. He wisely knew one could become lost in the analysis of numbers and not see the light. Which Q you choose is certainly ok for the manner in which you conduct your scientific research. Now it has come to the attention of the Brain that some of you are not satisfied about the level of meat in your diet. Back off! The Brain knows too much meat in the diet will lead to clogged arteries and arteriosclerosis. Choose your own Q but give others the freedom to conduct their inventive research in the manner which they see fit.
Okay, okay!
-Phil
Results are in for the first built Water Telescope. A box was created with a 3.6 inch diameter aperture at the top. The bottom was removed. The four top corners were covered with double stick tape. A sheet of clear kitchen wrap was applied. Bottled water was poured onto the wrap.
A Plano convex water lens was expected. However, a double convex lens appeared, the top convex created by the waters surface tension. First the lens was inspected. It had 2 bubbles from the pouring. Touching each the bubbles popped. Two small pieces of box lint flew into the lens. Their effects were not noticeable. The lens looked like the finest lens, purely transparent with very bright and clear images.
How did it magnify? It's performance was remarkable, producing a regular well focussed bright colored images of about 7x when holding the telescope. The surface was highly reflective and formed excellent images of the light above and buildings outside the window.
The telescope performed well at about F2. Handling the scope when it's primed with water is not recommended. The water acts slippery and slides off to one side causing a spill. Any handling causes vibrations and ripples will appear on the lens surface. Control of the speed of the lens is currently being studied. For slower lens speed, the membrane stretching can be increased. For faster, the membrane is loosely attached. Some membrane wrinkles appeared on the lens side but their effects were negligible and cold be reduced or eliminated.
It's recommended to build a deepened waterproof cavity to avoid water spillage.
(add photos)
For smaller liquid lenses it becomes more challenging to regulate the membrane surface. The weight of a small amount of water may be insufficient to stretch the membrane to the desired focal length.
Control over the shape of the membrane could regulate the lens speed, the focal length, and image focus. How to control the shape and sag?
By making the telescope into an air tight chamber, a small vacuum pump could adjust the internal air pressure. This in turn would change the shape of the membrane, thus controlling the focal ratio and other image parameters. It's recommended to install a pressure gauge and adjustable valve for calibrating the lens.
Using a 3.6 Inch H2O Lens
Photos from cell phone
Attempting upload with iPad or iPhone
Using a 3.6 Inch H2O Lens
Photos from cell phone
Attempting upload with iPad or iPhone
Photos Description
None of the photos went through. I tried with email, cell phone and iPad. However I can provide the detailed docs for each photo.
There are nine total photos taken showing the first water lens telescope.
Photo 1 is cam roll indexed as 13 of 21. It shows the complete telescope from a top view during the lens filling process. About 4/5ths of the lens is water filled. The scope is tilted on purpose to clearly show this is notna Plano coves lens as might be expected but rather a double convex, on the top due to water surface tension.
Photo 14 of 21 is a close up shot showing the ceiling light reflected off the top surface of the lens. There are membrane irregularities around the perimeter. No effort is made to remove these wrinkles in this test telescope as the test is for center lens. The ceiling light shows good mag and crisp sharp detail. This verifies the lens surface at the top is convex and providing high resolution imagery.
Photo 18 of 21 is lens water filled. This experiment tests the function of the lens when tilted. The telescope must have some serious level surface alignment for best performance. Some edge wrinkles are visible on the membranes extreme edges. For the future telescope it is suggested to simply mask off these outer edges.
13 of 21 shows an effect not seen visually. The membrane appears to have a surface effect of parallel lines space equidistance apart. At F2, these effects on the formed image are not seen. It appears this type of membrane will perform well at high speeds. After some investigation it is found the parallel lines have nothing to do with the membrane. They are perhaps caused by the interfering wave patterns caused by diffraction grating effect between a window glass reflection and the window screening. This explains why, in the same lens photo, the image of the ceiling light is absent of this effect. In the study of remaining images, the effect is indeed caused by the membrane material. The reason the ceiling light was clear in the same image is because the image was located and formed by a different section of the membrane. The membrane is an inexpensive version of Saran Wrap from a Shanghai Chinese source.
If liquid conforms to the shape of the underlying surface and the shape of the top lens surface is formed by suface tension, the overall shape of the double convex lens my be one with complex surfaces. It is no different than putting together two Plano convex lenses together, each with different focal length and magnification. The combination works well.
It is possible to do an experiment to determine some shape of a true Plano convex water lens by making the membrane flat and measuring the curve created by water tension.
Membrane material was tried with varying amounts of water at varying weights. As the weight of the liquid increases, the number of wrinkles decrease. Small membrane telescopes may suffer wrinkles more than large membrane telescopes.
Again, this effect may have a simple remedy by converting the telescope to a hydro lens hydraulic actuated membrane telescope system. This would entail a system of of applied vacuum to the back side of the membrane to form it and pull it into shape when the weight of a small amount of water is insufficient to form the membrane.
In a rare find, a sheet of aluminized thin membrane Mylar was found in a grocery store. The mirror sheet is the inside backing of a 118 gram package of peanuts from Huaweiheng Foods. A section 5.6 x 6.6 inches was cut from the bag. This will make an experimental telescope mirror 5.5 inches diameter.
The Mylar is not perfect as it has a perceptible pattern from the manufacturing process and a slight imprint from the printed characters on the opposite side. There are some slight scratches made by movements of the brittle plastic insert during shipping and handling. The mirror is capable of forming grade B images and is excellent for testing various mylar-based telescope mirror functions.
The goal is to transfer some of the knowledge learned from the liquid membrane mirror to a dry hydraulic mirror. Current equipment produces air pressure from pumps for launching Micro Space Rockets but does not generate a vacuum. It's possible to reverse the pressure valve and create a kind of vacuum pump to evacuate the dry hydraulic telescope with the Mylar mirror.
Contact information for large sheets is
Hanzhou Huaweiheng Food Co., Ltd.
No. 74 West Xingqiao Street
Yuhang District, Hangzhou, China
Production Area
Hangzhou Zhejiang Province
Tel. 0571-86262585
Fax. 0571-86262589
Post Code 311100
'noido,
Dude, it just pains me to see you dorking around with aluminized mylar salvaged from a peanut package. Why not just order something from a proper supplier and have it shipped to your lab/apartment/Bat Cave?
Here's a link to something similar, though I can't vouch for the stuff since I've never used it, but maybe it will at least get you out of the Produce aisle:
http://www.anchoroptics.com/catalog/product.cfm?id=568
And I'm guessing ebay would be a good place to shop, too.
Electric', I know, I know... Several people are looking for large rolls of this material for me locally but as you know, it must be made of the "right stuff." Small test telescopes are one thing but my requirements for larger telescopes are much more stringent. Plus travel has now taken me to a place that looks just like Gotham City and I doubt postal delivery can catch up to me when I'm wearing the Bat Cape.
Here's a neat and simple solution to the spillage problem with the first water lens telescope. Take one large water bottle and cut off the top and bottom. Keep a ring about .75 inch wide that can slip into the top tube section.
This will friction fit and attach/ hold the membrane to the telescope. Push it down into the bottle deep enough to make a lip to hold the water and give 3 inches above the water level. Adjust membrane tension. Seal with silicone if necessary. Use another identical water bottle over the top section to help prevent spills when moving the telescope around.
I read in a magazine (I think it was Model Airplane News), that the aluminized film used in "mylar balloons" is actually aluminized nylon.
In my observations of water surface tension, the convex shape is only prominent near the edges. The examples of using water as a lens I've seen are usually limited to water drops. If you're going to mask the edges anyway, I think you could probably consider the lens a plano convex.
Are you still working on spin casting? Ever since reading (about ten years ago) about spinning pools of mercury being used as a lens, I've wondered about spin casting. I think there are significant problems with trying to cast a resin mirror.
Besides the hardware and electronics involved there's also the problem of applying a reflective coating to the surface of the final cast. I'm not sure how you would make a reflective coating on a resin surface. I've played a little with casting (not spinning) resin prisms. I wanted to add a reflective coating to one of these prisms. My thought was to add the reflective film used on car windows but the person at Tap Plastics told that all plastics "out gas" and the film would likely develop bubbles rather quickly.
I'm very curious to know how you have or plan to add a reflective coating to any plastic surface you have in the past or may in the future cast. I have wondered about evaporative plating but that is not a simple process (I've seen it done). I'm not sure if bubbles would still form under a layer of the deposited metal.
Do you have pictures of this iGlass you've written about. Any images taken with plastic mirrors?
Duane
A new material membrane called Nan Ya Wrap was obtained for tests today. This comes in 30 cm wide rolls x 60 meters long which will make a large 12-inch diameter liquid lens. The source is Nan Ya Plastics Corporation of Taiwan. It's rated for 130 deg. C to -60 deg. C.
The quality of this material is similar to the previous material used in the H2O Telescope. Without tight stretch, a series of parallel manufacturing lines appear similar to the previous material, however this time another experiment was performed. The membrane was stretched extra tight and the lines disappeared.
This material type, which probably applies to most plastic kitchen wrap, responds best, i.e. a smoother surface results, when tightly stretched. To maintain this tight stretch will require another influence on the membrane in addition to water weight. This influence will be accomplished with a pneumatic mechanism working with a vacuum chamber that pulls the membrane taut when water loaded.
Pneumatic, Mylar Balloon Material
Thanks, I will use the correct term pneumatic. I have studied a Mylar reflective balloon and although reflective, the surface remains rough and diffuse. It is not surprising if it has a nylon surface.
I know the water drop lens is more curved at the edge but how far into the lens towards the center does the curve continue?
I plan an experiment with a wide band microscope and the existing H2O Telescope. A profile photo of the lens will be taken and then referenced to a straight line to determine the curve's extent. This will determine how much of the lens to mask or may raise some new questions.