Publishing remains a core issue in reaching the educational/hobby user.
When Nuts n' Volts was hitting its stride in magazine racks, the BasicStamp Manual really helped things along.
Arduino seemed to do something equally right in web publishing. I suspect that made it easy for O'Reily to publish books for them. It was mostly cut and paste what existed.
Propeller publications have been entirely different.
For the most part, there has been nothing chock full of easy examples for beginners. I suspect that the artwork from the BasicStamp Manual schematics and examples could be re-labled, re-coded, and re-purposed for the Propeller and Propeller Two, but no one has tried. Andy Lindsay seems to have had the right feel for his audience which happens to be the largest readership.
Jon Williams has long filled in with in depth challenges to users that want more.
But that 'Beginner's Bible' hasn't seemed to evolve for the Propeller. There just wasn't enough time in the day to get this done after the Propeller launched, so many people were doing so many creative things on their own that the new user was left to play catch up.
The new shopping pages, as much as they are improved from the old, still have a way to go. Look at the Propeller Mini product. There's a mention at the bottom you need a Prop Plug to program the thing. There's no quick link for the product on the page, and if you do a search for the exact product name used -- "Propeller Plug" (note, not "Prop Plug," which is the actual name) -- you get page after page of listings, with no Prop Plug or Propeller Plug in easy view. I don't think mahy customers know you need to search by product ID to find what you want.
I bet the Propeller would sell better if the cart were designed with more aggressive features, including a "Other Customers Bought," "Staff Picks," and "Best Sellers" right at the top. Sorting by price for something like Propeller Boards, a category that also contains products that don't have a Propeller, seems counter-productive to me. It is, I think, a default in the CMS they're using, so it's easy to do.
My comments are no by means a criticism of the hard work that's been done, and is being done, on the cart. But while it's functional, I have to wonder if it's doing the selling it should. I think folks would be surprised how it could drive more sales.
"Propeller Mini", wow, I had to check that out, never heard of it before. I don't check the Parallax.com site much. Has anyone ever discussed it on the forum? Was I sleeping? How come it has so few I/O pins available?
"Propeller Mini", wow, I had to check that out, never heard of it before. I don't check the Parallax.com site much. Has anyone ever discussed it on the forum? Was I sleeping? How come it has so few I/O pins available?
I believe it was brought out to replace the SpinStamp. which I miss immensely. I had a lot of projects that only needed 9-10 pins.(In a 24 Pin socket).
I added a link to the Prop Plug from the Mini's product page, so it should be easier to get to. It also will be added as one of our related products for the Mini.
Additionally, I changed what is written in the note to reflect the actual product name "Prop Plug" instead of "Propeller Plug", since I cannot directly affect how users use (or don't use) our search. Hopefully this all helps.
It is possible that there are and always has been too many Propeller boards.
I lost track after the Propeller Demo Board which at the time seemed far too expensive. Redundant anyway, if you have a DIP Prop that is like a "demo board" itself, it needs almost no support components to get it going and plugs straight into a bread board or proto board or vero board etc.
After that Prop boards seem to multiply like rabbits.
Perhaps the should have just been "The Propeller Chip" and "The Propeller Board". The board being as dirt simple as an Arduino.
I lost track after the Propeller Demo Board which at the time seemed far too expensive.
I loved the Demo Board. It was always my go-to platform for trying stuff out until the Prop BOE came along, followed by the Activity Board. Both of the latter, with their built-in USB ports, make things even easier.
It is possible that there are and always has been too many Propeller boards.
I lost track after the Propeller Demo Board which at the time seemed far too expensive. Redundant anyway, if you have a DIP Prop that is like a "demo board" itself, it needs almost no support components to get it going and plugs straight into a bread board or proto board or vero board etc.
After that Prop boards seem to multiply like rabbits.
Perhaps the should have just been "The Propeller Chip" and "The Propeller Board". The board being as dirt simple as an Arduino.
Maybe Parallax could decide that Martin's ASC board is "The Propeller Board" and then we'd have access to all of the Arduino shields.
Yes, Martin's ASC board is brilliant. I loaned mine out to someone new to the Propeller, it has not come back yet:)
Access to all the Arduino shields would be great, that's the whole idea of the thing. As long as the software to make them useful can keep up.
Meanwhile, looking at a different huge market to leverage...
How come Parallax hasn't already announced a Propeller board designed to mate with the new Raspberry Pi B+ ?
There is going to be another million people out there who potentially need some real-time assistance for their Raspi projects. Or who just need a smart I/O expander, a bunch PWM outputs or whatever.
Yes, Martin's ASC board is brilliant. I loaned mine out to someone new to the Propeller, it has not come back yet:)
Access to all the Arduino shields would be great, that's the whole idea of the thing. As long as the software to make them useful can keep up.
We'd be happy to feature Martin's ASC more prominently. I'll get with Jen about a home page graphic. We also welcome guest contributions in the form of a "Parallax Insider News" article. Such a story could be 2-3 paragraphs describing the role of this particular product. How about it? Somebody want to help us out here?
Meanwhile, looking at a different huge market to leverage...
How come Parallax hasn't already announced a Propeller board designed to mate with the new Raspberry Pi B+ ?
Truthfully, we're short on engineering staff right now.
Daniel is absorbed with a GPS module and Parallax FPGA design.
David Carrier is handling revisions to Propeller Project Board, Spinneret 2 launch, and a project you will see released next Thursday.
Andy has been running courses for several weeks.
Kyle is handling ELEV-8 V2 release, and he returns to school in August.
Ben is on the S3
Chris and Beau are both currently absorbed into Tech Support, helping our customers.
Chip wouldn't be that interested, not to mention he has our most important project under his wing right now.
We have an outside team, too. The issue with a Rasberry Pi B+ board isn't the PCB layout, but the concept/approach/documentation/support. It's simply beyond our current ability to envision, prioritize and absorb into work flow. It would be ideal if such products were created by the community - professionally I lack the vision to put this one together inside Parallax right now. But yes, it would be a useful addition to complement the very popular RasPi.
We'd be happy to feature Martin's ASC more prominently. I'll get with Jen about a home page graphic. We also welcome guest contributions in the form of a "Parallax Insider News" article. Such a story could be 2-3 paragraphs describing the role of this particular product. How about it? Somebody want to help us out here?
That would be great! Then we just have to get everybody using it! :-)
"Propeller Mini", wow, I had to check that out, never heard of it before. I don't check the Parallax.com site much. Has anyone ever discussed it on the forum? Was I sleeping? How come it has so few I/O pins available?
As a Stamp form factor, it has all the pins it needs! Though not a drop-in Stamp replacement, lots of folks have use for these small breadboard-able boards. Small projects = no need for gobs of I/O pins.
Though they've had this product planned for a long time, a few years back I had a request for a board this size for wearable computing. I'm glad to see it added. I got off on another tangent since then, but now that the Mini is available, I might pick up on it again.
I added a link to the Prop Plug from the Mini's product page, so it should be easier to get to. It also will be added as one of our related products for the Mini.
Eggcellent!
I recall the cart uses Joomla. I seem to remember a "staff picks" add-in that will put X number of products in the category at the top of the listing. Since the cart shows 4-up in both desktop and mobile modes, each category page having four favs would be ideal. For the Propeller Board category, I'd think the naturals would be Activity Board and QuickStart, followed by whatever you wanted to push that week. The sorting mode has no effect on the listed favorites.
I would also hope that they don't leave the Activity Board as a reference design.
I re-read this poorly written sentence and just wanted to clarify: I hope they keep the Activity Board as a reference design. Perhaps their main reference design.
RoboPi+ for the Raspberry Pi Model B+ is in the works.
This is not an official announcement by any means - I still have to get prototypes back, test them, and get a production run of boards.
RoboPi is doing nicely, and will still be available as long as Model A/B are. It was a no brainer to start on RoboPi+ as soon as the Model B+ was announced.
We'd be happy to feature Martin's ASC more prominently. I'll get with Jen about a home page graphic. We also welcome guest contributions in the form of a "Parallax Insider News" article. Such a story could be 2-3 paragraphs describing the role of this particular product. How about it? Somebody want to help us out here?
Truthfully, we're short on engineering staff right now.
Daniel is absorbed with a GPS module and Parallax FPGA design.
David Carrier is handling revisions to Propeller Project Board, Spinneret 2 launch, and a project you will see released next Thursday.
Andy has been running courses for several weeks.
Kyle is handling ELEV-8 V2 release, and he returns to school in August.
Ben is on the S3
Chris and Beau are both currently absorbed into Tech Support, helping our customers.
Chip wouldn't be that interested, not to mention he has our most important project under his wing right now.
We have an outside team, too. The issue with a Rasberry Pi B+ board isn't the PCB layout, but the concept/approach/documentation/support. It's simply beyond our current ability to envision, prioritize and absorb into work flow. It would be ideal if such products were created by the community - professionally I lack the vision to put this one together inside Parallax right now. But yes, it would be a useful addition to complement the very popular RasPi.
I have to admit I first saw this thread and a page or two in I started to respond until I saw the age of the post I was planning on responding to. I held off and since the thread has regained traction I thought I throw in my two cents about the current posts in the thread.
My first thought is while I love the ASC board that I have I think that it share a very fundamental problems that all propeller boards have. The first is that not all the prop pins are presented to the world and that they have a hard time dealing with the 5 volts on the IO pins that the digital electronics world is based around. I understand that's an issue with the propeller but something that would be nice if the P2 could make easier (I know).
I would also like to see something along the lines of the basic stamp boards as well as the sx28 board. ALL of the pins of the prop available for use via jumpers.
The biggest problem as I see it is the lack of books on using the propeller. I know there are a few and I have them all. I know it's not all something that Parallax is capable of dealing with but go to Amazon and search for books about arduino and the propeller and you'll see what I'm talking about. The "learn forum" is nice but currently very lacking and specific information can be hard to find.
Wow, we've caught the attention of Parallax staff. I knew Parallax was busy busy but from what Ken says they could be swamped. I know I've mentioned this before but temps and interns are perfect for offloading the smaller or more mundane tasks from staff.
Heater, I am surprised that you've never heard of the Propeller Mini. I remember it being prominently displayed either last year or the year before.
I agree with Mike Green to use the right tool for the right job but at the same time I don't have the time or money to play with everything that keeps coming out. The Propeller may not be perfect for everything but I love that's it's versatile.
Besides, did you think Chip designed Spin just to drive people nuts?
Spin seems very intuitive to me especially after using PBASIC.
:nerd: I am working on soem software to give Parallax a whole new exposure to the public; specifically - universities, industrial, and hobbiests. I am working on the
infrastructure, and I will need ALOT of help from this forum. I will rely on my friends to give me their unquie vision, and keep me from the pitfalls. I hope it works.
It will be a Journey, and fun! A challenge for all!!! Thanks!
:nerd: I am working on soem software to give Parallax a whole new exposure to the public; specifically - universities, industrial, and hobbiests. I am working on the
infrastructure, and I will need ALOT of help from this forum. I will rely on my friends to give me their unquie vision, and keep me from the pitfalls. I hope it works.
It will be a Journey, and fun! A challenge for all!!! Thanks!
Ummm... Care to give more details about this new software and what sort of help you might need?
Scratch that, if you tell me who the preacher is I can figure out the choir members for myself.
Or do you mean it's just a bunch of "believers" discussing among themselves? That may well be true but notice that many of the participants in this meeting here are very active in spreading the "Gospel of the Propeller" and creating tools to make it approachable to the world at large. Bill Henning and the GCC team are notable in that respect but they are not the only ones.
Heater, there is a difference between preaching and praising. I personally think the Propeller is a good product and if you want to use something else then so be it. I use Windows even though posters have said how much better Windows is. That's my choice.
Since you mention "preaching", I have never claimed that the Propeller was invented the almighty himself or that it's a mortal sin not to use it. Some might have sense a humor but others might actually be offended by such comments.
Besides I don't know many times I've heard this but a happy customer tells 3 people while an unhappy customer tells 10. It's in a company's best interest to keep it's customers happy since there is not an unlimited number of customers and each new customer costs more money to get.
What? It was not be who mentioned "preaching". I was the one who was wondering what it was about. Nobody has mentioned Windows here.
...did you think Chip designed Spin just to drive people nuts
Not at all.
I like Spin. I have often said that the complete ensemble of the Propeller chip architecture, the Spin byte codes, Spin the language itself and the Propeller tool are a model of elegance and simplicity. All designed and "tuned" together by a man with a vision of how a development system should be.
My comments about Spin here are not about how good or bad Spin might be but rather about how I see it's acceptance in the world at large. I don't think Spin is a selling point I think it hinders Propeller take up in the market.
Scratch that, if you tell me who the preacher is I can figure out the choir members for myself.
Or do you mean it's just a bunch of "believers" discussing among themselves? That may well be true but notice that many of the participants in this meeting here are very active in spreading the "Gospel of the Propeller" and creating tools to make it approachable to the world at large. Bill Henning and the GCC team are notable in that respect but they are not the only ones.
What actually are you trying to say?
I know there are some rock solid believers in the propeller here that can not seem to restrain themselves from extolling the propeller no mater what the topic at hand is.
The topic has to do with how Parallax has lost market share in the education field.
AIUI most money is spent on 'entrance level' courses in education. Then a percentage of those that get past the basics go on to intermediate where the tools cost a bit more but there are less people buying them. At the advanced levels there are even fewer people buying tools.
For naught that seems apparent to me Parallax is putting a mighty effort into being the leader in the group that just naturally buys less tools. Factor that with having to learn new software to use that tool and educators are naturally going to spend their money elsewhere.
Ummm... Care to give more details about this new software and what sort of help you might need?
Absolutely! I have submitted this to Parallax, in the Forum section, in Suggestions to Parallax.
Title - Mil-Spec Forth & Mil-spec Linux platform for Parallax. I hope Parallax will let me do this,
as it is to everyones advantage. It will take awhile, but it will be a learning, cool journey!
BTW, Trooks is (my opinion) right on target with the education direction. Hopefully, OUR
project will solve that problem. Nerds of the world, unite! May "The Code" be with us!:nerd:
Comments
When Nuts n' Volts was hitting its stride in magazine racks, the BasicStamp Manual really helped things along.
Arduino seemed to do something equally right in web publishing. I suspect that made it easy for O'Reily to publish books for them. It was mostly cut and paste what existed.
Propeller publications have been entirely different.
For the most part, there has been nothing chock full of easy examples for beginners. I suspect that the artwork from the BasicStamp Manual schematics and examples could be re-labled, re-coded, and re-purposed for the Propeller and Propeller Two, but no one has tried. Andy Lindsay seems to have had the right feel for his audience which happens to be the largest readership.
Jon Williams has long filled in with in depth challenges to users that want more.
But that 'Beginner's Bible' hasn't seemed to evolve for the Propeller. There just wasn't enough time in the day to get this done after the Propeller launched, so many people were doing so many creative things on their own that the new user was left to play catch up.
-Phil
I bet the Propeller would sell better if the cart were designed with more aggressive features, including a "Other Customers Bought," "Staff Picks," and "Best Sellers" right at the top. Sorting by price for something like Propeller Boards, a category that also contains products that don't have a Propeller, seems counter-productive to me. It is, I think, a default in the CMS they're using, so it's easy to do.
My comments are no by means a criticism of the hard work that's been done, and is being done, on the cart. But while it's functional, I have to wonder if it's doing the selling it should. I think folks would be surprised how it could drive more sales.
"Propeller Mini", wow, I had to check that out, never heard of it before. I don't check the Parallax.com site much. Has anyone ever discussed it on the forum? Was I sleeping? How come it has so few I/O pins available?
I believe it was brought out to replace the SpinStamp. which I miss immensely. I had a lot of projects that only needed 9-10 pins.(In a 24 Pin socket).
http://www.parallax.com/sites/default/files/downloads/SS1-IC-Propeller-Spin-Stamp-Module-v1.1.pdf
I added a link to the Prop Plug from the Mini's product page, so it should be easier to get to. It also will be added as one of our related products for the Mini.
Additionally, I changed what is written in the note to reflect the actual product name "Prop Plug" instead of "Propeller Plug", since I cannot directly affect how users use (or don't use) our search. Hopefully this all helps.
I lost track after the Propeller Demo Board which at the time seemed far too expensive. Redundant anyway, if you have a DIP Prop that is like a "demo board" itself, it needs almost no support components to get it going and plugs straight into a bread board or proto board or vero board etc.
After that Prop boards seem to multiply like rabbits.
Perhaps the should have just been "The Propeller Chip" and "The Propeller Board". The board being as dirt simple as an Arduino.
-Phil
Yes, Martin's ASC board is brilliant. I loaned mine out to someone new to the Propeller, it has not come back yet:)
Access to all the Arduino shields would be great, that's the whole idea of the thing. As long as the software to make them useful can keep up.
Meanwhile, looking at a different huge market to leverage...
How come Parallax hasn't already announced a Propeller board designed to mate with the new Raspberry Pi B+ ?
There is going to be another million people out there who potentially need some real-time assistance for their Raspi projects. Or who just need a smart I/O expander, a bunch PWM outputs or whatever.
We'd be happy to feature Martin's ASC more prominently. I'll get with Jen about a home page graphic. We also welcome guest contributions in the form of a "Parallax Insider News" article. Such a story could be 2-3 paragraphs describing the role of this particular product. How about it? Somebody want to help us out here?
Truthfully, we're short on engineering staff right now.
- Daniel is absorbed with a GPS module and Parallax FPGA design.
- David Carrier is handling revisions to Propeller Project Board, Spinneret 2 launch, and a project you will see released next Thursday.
- Andy has been running courses for several weeks.
- Kyle is handling ELEV-8 V2 release, and he returns to school in August.
- Ben is on the S3
- Chris and Beau are both currently absorbed into Tech Support, helping our customers.
- Chip wouldn't be that interested, not to mention he has our most important project under his wing right now.
We have an outside team, too. The issue with a Rasberry Pi B+ board isn't the PCB layout, but the concept/approach/documentation/support. It's simply beyond our current ability to envision, prioritize and absorb into work flow. It would be ideal if such products were created by the community - professionally I lack the vision to put this one together inside Parallax right now. But yes, it would be a useful addition to complement the very popular RasPi.Ken Gracey
As a Stamp form factor, it has all the pins it needs! Though not a drop-in Stamp replacement, lots of folks have use for these small breadboard-able boards. Small projects = no need for gobs of I/O pins.
Though they've had this product planned for a long time, a few years back I had a request for a board this size for wearable computing. I'm glad to see it added. I got off on another tangent since then, but now that the Mini is available, I might pick up on it again.
Eggcellent!
I recall the cart uses Joomla. I seem to remember a "staff picks" add-in that will put X number of products in the category at the top of the listing. Since the cart shows 4-up in both desktop and mobile modes, each category page having four favs would be ideal. For the Propeller Board category, I'd think the naturals would be Activity Board and QuickStart, followed by whatever you wanted to push that week. The sorting mode has no effect on the listed favorites.
I re-read this poorly written sentence and just wanted to clarify: I hope they keep the Activity Board as a reference design. Perhaps their main reference design.
-Phil
RoboPi+ for the Raspberry Pi Model B+ is in the works.
This is not an official announcement by any means - I still have to get prototypes back, test them, and get a production run of boards.
RoboPi is doing nicely, and will still be available as long as Model A/B are. It was a no brainer to start on RoboPi+ as soon as the Model B+ was announced.
...sounds like you need to hire more people?
My first thought is while I love the ASC board that I have I think that it share a very fundamental problems that all propeller boards have. The first is that not all the prop pins are presented to the world and that they have a hard time dealing with the 5 volts on the IO pins that the digital electronics world is based around. I understand that's an issue with the propeller but something that would be nice if the P2 could make easier (I know).
I would also like to see something along the lines of the basic stamp boards as well as the sx28 board. ALL of the pins of the prop available for use via jumpers.
The biggest problem as I see it is the lack of books on using the propeller. I know there are a few and I have them all. I know it's not all something that Parallax is capable of dealing with but go to Amazon and search for books about arduino and the propeller and you'll see what I'm talking about. The "learn forum" is nice but currently very lacking and specific information can be hard to find.
Heater, I am surprised that you've never heard of the Propeller Mini. I remember it being prominently displayed either last year or the year before.
I agree with Mike Green to use the right tool for the right job but at the same time I don't have the time or money to play with everything that keeps coming out. The Propeller may not be perfect for everything but I love that's it's versatile.
Besides, did you think Chip designed Spin just to drive people nuts?
Spin seems very intuitive to me especially after using PBASIC.
infrastructure, and I will need ALOT of help from this forum. I will rely on my friends to give me their unquie vision, and keep me from the pitfalls. I hope it works.
It will be a Journey, and fun! A challenge for all!!!
AFAICT your post makes no sense at all.
Who is the preacher here? Who is the choir?
Scratch that, if you tell me who the preacher is I can figure out the choir members for myself.
Or do you mean it's just a bunch of "believers" discussing among themselves? That may well be true but notice that many of the participants in this meeting here are very active in spreading the "Gospel of the Propeller" and creating tools to make it approachable to the world at large. Bill Henning and the GCC team are notable in that respect but they are not the only ones.
What actually are you trying to say?
Since you mention "preaching", I have never claimed that the Propeller was invented the almighty himself or that it's a mortal sin not to use it. Some might have sense a humor but others might actually be offended by such comments.
Besides I don't know many times I've heard this but a happy customer tells 3 people while an unhappy customer tells 10. It's in a company's best interest to keep it's customers happy since there is not an unlimited number of customers and each new customer costs more money to get.
What? It was not be who mentioned "preaching". I was the one who was wondering what it was about. Nobody has mentioned Windows here. Not at all.
I like Spin. I have often said that the complete ensemble of the Propeller chip architecture, the Spin byte codes, Spin the language itself and the Propeller tool are a model of elegance and simplicity. All designed and "tuned" together by a man with a vision of how a development system should be.
My comments about Spin here are not about how good or bad Spin might be but rather about how I see it's acceptance in the world at large. I don't think Spin is a selling point I think it hinders Propeller take up in the market.
I know there are some rock solid believers in the propeller here that can not seem to restrain themselves from extolling the propeller no mater what the topic at hand is.
The topic has to do with how Parallax has lost market share in the education field.
AIUI most money is spent on 'entrance level' courses in education. Then a percentage of those that get past the basics go on to intermediate where the tools cost a bit more but there are less people buying them. At the advanced levels there are even fewer people buying tools.
For naught that seems apparent to me Parallax is putting a mighty effort into being the leader in the group that just naturally buys less tools. Factor that with having to learn new software to use that tool and educators are naturally going to spend their money elsewhere.
Title - Mil-Spec Forth & Mil-spec Linux platform for Parallax. I hope Parallax will let me do this,
as it is to everyones advantage. It will take awhile, but it will be a learning, cool journey!
BTW, Trooks is (my opinion) right on target with the education direction. Hopefully, OUR
project will solve that problem. Nerds of the world, unite! May "The Code" be with us!:nerd: