Arduino, gaining foothold in education market? What can Parallax and the Prop d
HollyMinkowski
Posts: 1,398
The title for this thread is actually a comment someone made in the big C thread
over on the Propeller forum.
I think arduino is a nice piece of work (except for a slight oddness with the connectors)
It uses a good free C compiler and has nice add on boards available.
But the Prop is a much more powerful controller and would be so very cool on a cheap
ready to go board something like the arduino. The cheapest arduino I have bought was
an arduino diecimila, 16mhz ATmega328 that I got for 19.00 including shipping from China.
But few people order stuff direct from China and the avg price is more like 30-35 dollars.
Atmel has a cute little board with Atmega 169 and an lcd and a few connectors
for about $20 called the butterfly. I have built some fun little projects with these.
The butterfly is actually cooler in many ways than the arduino, it even can clip
on your blouse like a name tag
I think Parallax should make a very low cost and small board using a sm prop and a few connectors
along the lines of the butterfly and arduino. A vga cable could be made available to plug
into a connector on the board so that you could drive a monitor easily. A copy of PropBasic
and Catalina, along with a bunch of cool demos and several .pdf educational booklets
could make up an attractive package for educators to consider. The board would need USB
so that it could be programmed with just a standard USB cable.
-Cheaper than arduino
-Far more powerful than Arduino
-Built in VGA capabilities
-Comes with not only a free C but a free Basic
Add on boards would be easy to design and many 3rd
party boards would be forthcoming....there would be a market.
These boards would need to be sold at or slightly below cost like
the AVR butterfly is. But it would be a powerful way to get more
people and educators interested in the prop.
I know Parallax makes a couple of boards that come close to
this but the addition of the educational materials and a design
that looks a LOT like an arduino would be much better.
I'd advertise the thing as a 32bit, 8 core arduino killer and show it
in action running something that makes full use of the VGA
capabilities. I'd mention that a single core was more powerful
than the Atmega328 on the arduino. Perhaps have a demo running
2 monitors and several gadgets all at the same time. Everyone
would say "no way to do that with an arduino!" A 6.250 xtal
would be nice as 8 cores at 25mips each has a nice sound to it.
Propuino, propellerino ?
Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 4/21/2010 3:06:47 AM GMT
over on the Propeller forum.
I think arduino is a nice piece of work (except for a slight oddness with the connectors)
It uses a good free C compiler and has nice add on boards available.
But the Prop is a much more powerful controller and would be so very cool on a cheap
ready to go board something like the arduino. The cheapest arduino I have bought was
an arduino diecimila, 16mhz ATmega328 that I got for 19.00 including shipping from China.
But few people order stuff direct from China and the avg price is more like 30-35 dollars.
Atmel has a cute little board with Atmega 169 and an lcd and a few connectors
for about $20 called the butterfly. I have built some fun little projects with these.
The butterfly is actually cooler in many ways than the arduino, it even can clip
on your blouse like a name tag
I think Parallax should make a very low cost and small board using a sm prop and a few connectors
along the lines of the butterfly and arduino. A vga cable could be made available to plug
into a connector on the board so that you could drive a monitor easily. A copy of PropBasic
and Catalina, along with a bunch of cool demos and several .pdf educational booklets
could make up an attractive package for educators to consider. The board would need USB
so that it could be programmed with just a standard USB cable.
-Cheaper than arduino
-Far more powerful than Arduino
-Built in VGA capabilities
-Comes with not only a free C but a free Basic
Add on boards would be easy to design and many 3rd
party boards would be forthcoming....there would be a market.
These boards would need to be sold at or slightly below cost like
the AVR butterfly is. But it would be a powerful way to get more
people and educators interested in the prop.
I know Parallax makes a couple of boards that come close to
this but the addition of the educational materials and a design
that looks a LOT like an arduino would be much better.
I'd advertise the thing as a 32bit, 8 core arduino killer and show it
in action running something that makes full use of the VGA
capabilities. I'd mention that a single core was more powerful
than the Atmega328 on the arduino. Perhaps have a demo running
2 monitors and several gadgets all at the same time. Everyone
would say "no way to do that with an arduino!" A 6.250 xtal
would be nice as 8 cores at 25mips each has a nice sound to it.
Propuino, propellerino ?
Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 4/21/2010 3:06:47 AM GMT
Comments
That's a nice board no denying it.
But Parallax needs to offer the board itself.
Along with a package of materials, it needs to
look very very much like an arduino and be
advertised as a much more powerful replacement
for the same.
The micro sd socket is a great addition.... makes it even more of an arduino killer.
Put a cheap 1gb micro sd in there and advertise
it as the propuino 32bit 8 core monster board with
1GB of memory.
Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 4/21/2010 3:13:01 AM GMT
I'm really starting to think that part of the problem is that the Propeller does TOO much.
It's so capable that people get lost in the list.
Take for instance, speech. There was a thread right here where forum member erco discovered it for the first time.
The propeller has been able to produce speech for a while now, but with so much happening so fast, it simply
got lost in the shuffle of the 100's of other truly amazing things that the Propeller does.
I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but I'd love to see Parallax marketing come up with a way to
promote the amazing things that we do in a manner which pushed the Propeller to the great level it is,
but at the same time not bury it under a long list.
Make any sense at all at 11:30pm? I'm not sure.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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Post Edited (Oldbitcollector) : 4/21/2010 5:10:38 PM GMT
Show the board with a $2 USB bluetooth adapter
plugged in and working
Take that arduino....
1) The Arduino has several ADCs on board. Any Propeller equivalent would need to have the resistors and capacitors on board and wired ready to go.
2) The physical layout of the Arduino is odd and doesn't fit the 0.1" grid, but there are lots of "shields" that fit the layout. Any Propeller equivalent would have to be mechanically and electrically compatible.
3) Whatever C development environment is provided would have to include a basic library that would provide the same functionality including the ADCs and serial I/O. It's not necessary that additional Propeller unique features fit into this model. You might have to rewrite your code to use "standard" Propeller drivers and "standard" Propeller conventions, but the basic package should look as much like the Arduino as possible.
4) Maybe Andre has the right idea to package an Arduino software compatible Atmel microcontroller with a Propeller. That might be the best way to tackle that market. His board violates #2 which would have to be addressed and having two processors ups the cost, but avoids a lot of work providing new software.
Have a sm atmega 328 on the board and a set
of connectors identical to the arduino layout.
You could have more connectors located somewhere
else for just the prop....just don't get in the way of
any possible arduino add on boards.
I have made an Atmega644 and an Atmega168 play well
on the same board with a propeller...it's do-able.
The files for arduino board layout can be found on the web.
Should not be too hard to modify to add a prop and more
connectors.
The big draw there is that pre-cooked set of goodies gets people right to build a shield, hook up stuff, do things, maybe fabricate. Props do that right now, and do it well, but not in such a pre-cut way.
The kinds of things being published are kind of goofy cool, involving lots of easy hacks. One comparable project would be a paper craft game machine, or sound machine.
Supply some interesting cut out paper deal, utilizing house hold materials to support things, include the circuit too. Instead of a real board, they just punch the components through, solder, and go. That's the big draw to many of the stuff I've seen, though they have gotten more technical lately with bigger projects.
The core idea is to suck somebody in on a fun project that's got a very low barrier to entry, then expand on that. I've watched the MAKE: blog for a while now, and that's the mode. IMHO, easily done with Propeller too.
That kind of thing can be sent as a kit as well. They get all the goodies, some cool instructions, and the skill level isn't high. Could plop a breadboard in there as well, or some Gadget Gangster kits, with some supporting material to get very similar results. The idea would be low skill, keep the code to a minimum, and highlight the concept in context. We can do that, and actually have done that here. It's just not published and presented as much as we would like to see. OBCs "Cookbook" is right along those lines, as are other projects I've seen go through here.
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Post Edited (potatohead) : 4/21/2010 7:45:44 AM GMT
Ya, I believe if someone published a comparison table listing the features of the microcontrollers, there would be many more "checks" in the Propeller column - a quick glance would indicate "game over - clear winner"
·
Regarding being electrically compatible with arduino shields:
Doesn't the Propeller do what most of the shields do anyway? With the exception of ADC stuff, I haven't seen a shield
that did anything new that I couldn't do on the Propeller already. Is there a master list compiled somewhere?
OBC
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arduino.cc/en/Main/Hardware
www.arduino.cc/playground/Main/SimilarBoards
I recently got one of these from a UK supplier:
www.robotshop.com/arduino-usb-microcontroller-board-1-1.html
It was only £16.99 (GBP) including shipping!
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 4/21/2010 2:54:59 PM GMT
OBC, I think you are missing the point, arduino is not a kit, and it is ready to go for $29.95 at Sparkfun. What does Parallax have to offer, Demo board at $79.95, and you get to tell people that you can do all the expansion that you want on the breadboard? Here is another marketing example: Arduino main board $29.95, and an Arduino ethernet shield $46.00. This is not a kit, just plug together, and you are ready to go, the hardware aspect of it, at least. The people that are interested in this, probably are not looking for kits, but ready to use stuff. I do not have any arduino stuff, if we are making comparisons, lets try keeping it to oranges vs oranges.
Nobody has mentioned the Arduino mega board, 128kb of ram, how is the Propeller going to compete with that? Atmel has the at2060/at2061 chip which has 256kb of ram, so will we see an Arduino giga board? Now you can mention the board from Gadget Gangster, but it is still a kit; so you can tell people about the Propeller tell you are blue in the face, but if they are looking for ready to use equipment ...
Ray
Here is a little program to flash an LED:
/* Blink Turns on an LED on for one second, then off for one second, repeatedly. The circuit: * LED connected from digital pin 13 to ground. * Note: On most Arduino boards, there is already an LED on the board connected to pin 13, so you don't need any extra components for this example. Created 1 June 2005 By David Cuartielles http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/Blink based on an orginal by H. Barragan for the Wiring i/o board */ int ledPin = 13; // LED connected to digital pin 13 // The setup() method runs once, when the sketch starts void setup() { // initialize the digital pin as an output: pinMode(ledPin, OUTPUT); } // the loop() method runs over and over again, // as long as the Arduino has power void loop() { digitalWrite(ledPin, HIGH); // set the LED on delay(1000); // wait for a second digitalWrite(ledPin, LOW); // set the LED off delay(1000); // wait for a second }Lots of similar examples for beginners are supplied with the software.
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 4/21/2010 3:04:02 PM GMT
Ray
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 4/21/2010 4:02:09 PM GMT
Competition is healthy and it keeps us on the move in a forward direction. Complacency is more of an enemy. Yes, we're aware of the competition!
Parallax has significant investments in our educational curriculum, and this is one key reason educators use the BASIC Stamp. The Boe-Bot and What's a Microcontroller are repeat installments in United States classrooms, and we listen carefully to the instructors who use this material. Their choice to use the BASIC Stamp isn't really about the cost of a board, the size of it, or the [noparse][[/noparse]lack of] open-source aspect. It's driven by a well-supported system of instructional material that connects an introduction to programming, electronics and even mechanics. The books support the educator in releasing a rolled-out program for the students. We've got over ten years of team development with a feedback look from educators. We've personally instructed over 4,500 educators (teachers) around the USA, Europe, and SE Asia. This will continue, and we're increasing our educational department to support them for the long-term. Future direction in our educational department includes both the BASIC Stamp and Propeller (with the PMC compiler, for education).
The Arduino is competition to the BASIC Stamp more than the Propeller. Many hobbyists will prefer it for reasons cited above by you. And in education it does well with individual projects. Our focus is on classroom installments with curriculum. But to your point, it's the largest threat to the BASIC Stamp. Competition is welcome if we're not complacent. Products like the Arduino may even grow the whole embedded industry.
We fight back by doing what we do best, what you ask us to do, and what we want to do. We're not motivated by making a Propuino, Propellerino, or shield-compatible product. The Propeller's architecture will benefit from PCB form factors that show off it's best traits, rather than a pin-compatible board with an Arduino. However, this year you will see a small Propeller PCB with all the key I/Os dedicated to facilities you like to use, for $39. It's coming, and I think you'll like it!
Thanks to all of you, we're able to reinvest in a future that our customers can develop around. Propeller 2 shall follow Propeller 1. Much like the BASIC Stamp, which has been around since 1992, the Propeller is just getting started after four years of release. Everything we make is invested back in this business. You'll see one job opening today for an electronic engineer, followed by two more engineering/education positions in the coming days as soon as we post the availability of these positions. All of our manufacturing equipment in Rocklin has been replaced and we've optimized our production line around our Propellers and BASIC Stamps. Foundry and packaging companies are lined up for Propeller 2.
At this stage we're well-prepared for our next step of business. Relative to the topic at hand, we'll be taking a step up in terms of technology, capability and output instead of a sideways maneuver. Some pride, satisfaction and customers are key ingredients in our plan.
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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
This is a group that's only interested in learning enough programming to "get the job done". They're not particularly interested in robotics as much as fairly simple controller functions, more like what Jon (EFX-TEK) has for a market. I think that Hanno's 12Blocks could provide a useful inroad into this market with the right marketing and support.
Regarding EFX-TEK, they are switching all of their products to the Propeller for use with PropBASIC. For a group that just wants to get the job done they're going to have a lot of power at their disposal.
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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
I think Arduino does well because they recruited an army of companies to support it. Many companies (many voices) are vested in its success and are all actively promoting the Arduino.
But a lone voice in a crowd, no matter how loud, isn't enough to break through the competing messages. That's why all the Propeller Platform stuff is available under the MIT license, so anyone can make / expand / profit with them. A few folks already have, and more will.
The path to success isn't technical, it's social.
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Chris Savage
Parallax Engineering
·
HIGH 8
LOW 8
as on a BS2 to get a led to flash, Those programs above for the arduino are meaningless to me!
Whats with all the brackets and stuff? If you have to watch where you put them then I can see the simplest tasks asking for trouble with bugs.
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Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
@Ken: Looking forward to seeing the $39 board. I have a sketch that hasn't got off the design board that is a basically a demo board with all of the IO lines separated with headers between the Prop and connectors, etc. Kind of like a micro sized PPDB. Sounds like you guys are on the same concept.
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Andrew Williams
WBA Consulting
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Special Olympics Polar Bear Plunge, Mar 20, 2010
Truer words have not been spoken...
OBC
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$39, small Propeller PCB with key I/Os??? Ken, do share the juicy details!
OBC
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-Phil
1 - Go to Arduino's homepage, arduino.cc.
2 - Click Buy.
Instead of a webshop, you find a list of dozens of companies in as many countries. Arduino doesn't compete with 3rd parties - they pass up a sales opportunity in order to push business their way. Right now, I'll wager that 90% of all Propeller stuff is sold by Parallax. Unless that changes, there really won't be a financial incentive for 3rd parties to get behind the Prop like they have supported the Arduino.
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I think the popularity is largely because of the multi-platform operating system, small size, low cost, open-source feeling and simple C subset. And the social marketing you mentioned, too.
And your second point is interesting, but not the case so I will correct it so others are not misinformed. 43% of our sales are through our distributors, who are also stationed around the world. Propeller can be found in places that include Digi-Key and Mouser, too. Our key distributors are in Taiwan, Netherlands, UK and Germany. We've trained all of our distributors in Europe on the Propeller, in person. You're a 3rd party behind the Prop, so you must have an incentive as well.
One more thing I noticed about Arduino distribution is that it's over-sold, causing the opposite of what you expected in terms of incentive. Specifically, there are too many distributors. Look at New Zealand and the USA as examples. I assure you that the presence of too many distributors creates dilution and removes incentive. Nick, we know this from 20 years of experience. We don't approve many requests we receive because we want close relationships with our distributors and to ensure that they can provide the support and have financial success. For this reason you'll usually find that we have one per country when they perform well and keep prices at a reasonable level.
Ken Gracey
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Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 4/22/2010 4:20:50 AM GMT
Man, I dunno.... the tilted power plug I'm seeing in their promo photograph doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence, in my opinion. Heck, it looks like the kind of soldering job I might do!
arduino.cc/en/Guide/MacOSX
Yeah, I exaggerate when I say 90%. But I see a distinction between a typical reseller (like Radio Shack or Mouser) and a 3rd party. If you look at Liquidware, adafruit, or Seedstudio, they're doing things to extend and promote the platform that goes beyond just reselling / distributing. Radio Shack has a financial stake - but seedstudio has a true 'vested interest'. They're evangelists.
I love the Prop, just wish I could sell more
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