Leon said...
I can't see the point, either, especially as none of them seem to run native on the Propeller.
That depends on how you define native. There are two definitions as far as I can tell:
- the language emits PASM code only for execution with no interpretation at all.
- the language emits Spin byte code - because the Spin byte code interpreter is on chip.
LMM does not qualify as native because it requires an interpreter that does not live on the chip. Bob Anderson's tool emits native PASM, ImageCraft C can emit native PASM, the Propeller tool, BSTC, and Homespun can emit PASM. There is no language that emits Spin byte code beyond startup bytes that I know of except Propeller tool, BSTC, and Homespun. If there are other implementations that natively emit PASM or Spin byte code, it would be useful to know (some forth variant maybe?).
Graham said...
... wondering if there was a point beyond the enjoyment, challenge, or interest in doing it.
Little if any point beyond that [noparse]:)[/noparse] People do what they need or like to do useful to more than a few others or not. Being involved seems to benefit Parallax though.
I'm glad you asked. There are actually numerous reasons for curating the list as its evolution has taken place over the past eight months since the collection began in April of 2009. However, it was originally specified on my post #1 in May, still kept there for historical reasons, (in case someone asked this question) and quoted below in case you missed it.
humanoido said...
I admit, collecting is my compulsion. Everything from computers to Stamps. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Now I've started my new hobby - collecting as many working languages as
possible for the Propeller Demo Board and/or HYDRA Board. The only criteria is
they must be in working condition and runnable. I'm going far and wide to
collect more. Any other gems out there waiting to increase this collection?
Admittedly, the original reason was simple and pure, a love of (languages and the Propeller chip), and an idea to add function to the chip by increasing the collection of working languages. However since that time, the list has greatly expanded in leaps and bounds along with the ideas and perceptions surrounding the language collection and information contributed by many diverse and greatly knowledgeable and well informed individuals.
Together, the group has worked in a cooperation to tune the list and provide more information and details to determine various applicative suitabilities for whatever projects you may have in mind, even the nostalgic ones ranging to future ones. As a team, we're determined to provide documentation and workable solutions for all known languages that can run with the Propeller chip, and, even write some new ones in the process, and to ensure steps to make retro languages workable again. This is totally amazing in itself. I think most people will see incredible value here. The value of running a choice of, say, 180 languages on one chip is absolutely fantastic and a phenomenon in itself. In fact, who knows, maybe we'll get this up to 500 and then 1000 is not far fetched.
I have expanded on the number of reasons below, and I'm sure many of the gurus in this forum could add more.
1) The list will serve everyone with a Propeller chip who wants to program in a specific language.
2) The list will provide greater language functioning and capabilities of the single chip.
3) The list will serve for various retro projects
4) It can be fun and useful to program in a familiar language that you programmed in years ago
5) There are many hours of work on the list, and this can save time for someone looking for specific information and doing research and designs
6) The list is a challenge to see exactly how many languages can be added to the Propeller chip
7) The list is documentation to show the result of thousands of hours labor by people who wrote the language
8) The list is to inspire others who are capable to write their own Propeller languages
9) More diverse languages will be available
10) Better application solving, i.e. language preference
11) Running existing programs with alternate languages
12) Combining languages for special apps
13) For your benefit
14) Fun, hobby, projects, challenges
15) For students, schools, education, learning
16) For programming
17) For the love of the languages
18) To increase the total number of languages collected
19) Obtain some credit for your language work
20) As a challenge to complete a new language
21) For special projects using the Propeller chip
22) It will help pure research
23) It will assist in various lab exercises
24) It will help when conducting quantitative and qualitative analysis
25) It will lead to smaller and/or larger systems
26) It will encourage new designs, both hardware and software
27) Give new life to a language archive that runs on new technology
28) To develop new languages for new applications
29) I think most of all, Chip Gracey has given the world something really great - the fantastic Propeller chip, through his gifted efforts, talent and knowledge, and its now time for all of us to give something back and make him proud of our efforts and success to increase the applicative value of the Propeller chip in terms of the sheer number of software languages that it can run, and open the door wide to many things truly fantastic, in which, not only in the past but today as well - no one could even fathom the prospects of this accomplishment.
So, now, I've answered your question. Can you answer my question? Can you contribute a language to our list, or submit your own creation?
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/28/2009 6:50:42 PM GMT
I can't speak for the others but as a quite a few of the language implementations on the list are there as a result of the ZiCog Z80 emulator I should chime in with my motivations for creating ZiCog in the first place.
1) Originally I picked up this new funky looking Propeller chip on a whim, then almost immediately decided I should learn how to program it in PASM. The original Z80 emulation on the Prop was my first PASM program after working through the examples in the manual. Writing an emulator just seemed to be a good learning exercise. That was all it was supposed to be.
2) After that the thing developed a life of its own. I found I could tack a keyboard and video output to the emulator with almost no effort. And then what about SD cards?. And then "Hey, with a few lines of code this thing can run CP/M.
3) Aside - Prior to finding the Prop I was on the way to building a real Z80 computer to run CP/M. That itself was motivated my the desire to use up a pile of old chips I have lying around and as a way to participate in the preservation of our micro computing history.
4) This all snowballed when I found that I was not alone in my lunacy. Other crazy freaks out there picked up on the emulator and contributed all sorts of ideas. This brings us to where we are today with Prop circuit boards that have ZiCog as their reason for being.
Bottom line: it's a hobby, it's for fun, it's fun I can share with others. Should anyone ever have a practical use for this, say running some irreplaceable Z80 ROM code, I'd be overjoyed.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
December is coming to a close and the New Year is near (2010, can you believe it?). December has 3 new language additions (or additions that add new statement language functions). This total seems on the low side. Are there any new languages missed here? --- see the first post for the updated list ---
"The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos. Thousands of different programming languages have been created, mainly in the computer field, with many more being created every year. Most programming languages describe computation in an imperative style, i.e., as a sequence of commands, although some languages, such as those that support functional programming or logic programming, use alternative forms of description." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
And here is a generic partial list of programming languages.
A complete list, I would speculate could go into the tens of thousands of languages.
Note, many Propeller and Stamp languages are not included in this generic list.
However, it is presented here as food for ideas. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages
It's missing DEUCE Autocode. The English Electric DEUCE was one of the first commercial computers; they still had an operational DEUCE when I started working at English Electric, Kidsgrove, in 1961. It was basically an assembler, before that programs had to be written in machine code.
It's also missing IBM's BAL (assembler) and JCL. JCL was a job control language based on BAL.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Roy Eltham said...
I also support adding other languages such as BASIC and Java to OBEX. To me, wide language support can only be viewed as a good thing. It will bring in more users (more customers for Parallax). I think this should be done regardless of what happens with the PropTool stuff. Yes there might be cases where a particular object might not be available in one or more of the languages. That can and does happen now with C and SPIN/PASM, but the value of having C is greater than this negative. I think the value of having other languages is equally greater. Over time, more C variants of the SPIN modules have been appearing (I remember when the C stuff first went in, there was only a few). This will happen with all of the languages.
I have two functional cpm2.2 systems, z80, 30 mb hard drive, with 8 inch DD floppies·and a·bunch of s/w if you are interested.· Along with a stack of S-100 magazines and the 8008 newsletters.· I have one working terminal.· The computer boxes are large, with very heavy duty p/s.· If memory serves me, the machines each have 128kb memory, that was to be paged.· Also have incomplete modem board.
Gosh, wow. I would be extremely interested. Trouble is shipping anything that big and heavy from the states to Finland is going to be over the top expensive.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
As 2009 come to a close I wanted to say thanks to all that have contributed to this thread. I am new to "Propeller World" and very interested in creating learning environments using the chip. I believe that looking at what has been achieved technically throughout history is a great learning experience. Whether one is studying steam engines or Roman aqueducts or arcane programming languages there is an opportunity to learn something new from something old. The learning opportunities afforded by exploring programming languages, and especially how to create them are limitless. I would love to see more in this thread about the process of creating a compiler, or the thought process that contributes to developing a new language. But, that is off topic and perhaps a tangential thread. A special thanks to humanoido for starting this discussion, and all the effort in doing the original research.
"The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos."
In the context of computing and computers I would suggest that statement is not true. Thing is a loom or piano is not a computer. Without conditional statements, loops and some kind of internal state a loom is not a computer. Yes the punch cards and rolls used by looms and pianos do direct the machines and do have a similarity to latter computer cards and tapes. But the meaning of the symbols punched on those cards and tapes does not constitute a "computer programming language".
Unless someone can point me toward a super intelligent loom from the industrial revolution that did implement conditionals, loops etc. Which I would be more than happy to see.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
heater said...
Someone said: "The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos."
In the context of computing and computers I would suggest that statement is not true. Thing is a loom or piano is not a computer. Without conditional statements, loops and some kind of internal state a loom is not a computer. Yes the punch cards and rolls used by looms and pianos do direct the machines and do have a similarity to latter computer cards and tapes. But the meaning of the symbols punched on those cards and tapes does not constitute a "computer programming language"."The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos."
heater: Very good point. I think the key in the quote is "earliest programming languages." It does not say, "earliest computer programming languages." Certainly the code to program a music box has representations of notes that can be assembled and programmed to created music. It also depends on the definition of computer. A music box is not a computer by the definition seen below. However, the earliest records of computing machines were mechanical, and are considered the precursors of the modern day computer.
"com⋅put⋅er –noun
1. Also called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Compare analog computer, digital computer.
2. a person who computes; computist."
Ah yes, Humanoido, that is why I started my argument with "In the context of computing....".
I'm not making any distinction about the implementation of a computer. Silicon, vacuum tube, mechanical or even human. They all have the property of being able to implement algorithms and as such they all need have an internal state and be able to make decisions and perform loops etc. So conditional statements and jumps/loops are essential for a computer programming language.
This is a rather large distinction between "languages" for music boxes, pianos and looms which are simple lists of steps always in order.
Thinks a bit....Hmm, music boxes, pianos and looms can of course have one big loop as the drum, roll, or whatever often is a big loop by construction. Perhaps these things are more evolutionary than I thought.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
heater: Now I see! You have made some lucid distinctions between programs, and not necessarily between the machines that run the programs. Is there a name for programs that merely run in listed order, in a loop or otherwise, and a name for a program that can make decisions and break out of loops, etc.? Interesting, the latter programs can run on computers while the former code can run on both computers and various mechanical machines that are not necessarily labeled as computing machines.
Not sure about the naming of categories of "control" languages. For sure some of them can be used to create algorithms whilst others cannot. But in a way the language is the specification of the machine. A so called "Turing Complete" language/machine is what we are normally looking for in computing. Pianos and looms were not "Turing Complete".
[noparse][[/noparse]quote]To be Turing complete, it is enough to have conditional branching (an "if" and "goto" statement), and the ability to change memory.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
heater: you have answered the question about the language category names. The language is either Turing Complete, or not Turing Complete. A music box cylinder has instructions that are not Turing Complete, while a language that meets the minimal requirement of branching/conditional statements can be considered Turing Complete.
Each computer program language list is unique and has additional languages
that are added. Here is yet another list, for Propeller language development
reference.
BradC: have you ever held up a mirror in front of a mirror
only to see an infinite number of mirrors in the reflection of
the first? I'm beginning to think the number of computer
programming languages is much like the two mirrors, i.e.
they appear to go on forever.
humanoido said...
BradC: have you ever held up a mirror in front of a mirror
only to see an infinite number of mirrors in the reflection of
the first?
I did that recently and put my puppy in between the mirrors. It confused her [noparse]:)[/noparse]
It was always a favourite trick of mine in the TV studio. Visual feedback can make for some crazy effects [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Just browsing the list and picking a language at random, but Jal is a compiled language that generates PIC assembly. How is that relevant to the Propeller?
And while I'm here.. Python? O_o
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
BradC said...
Just browsing the list and picking a language at random,
but Jal is a compiled language that generates PIC assembly.
How is that relevant to the Propeller?
I think most of the languages on the alternate lists are
"up for grabs" when it comes to Propeller implementation.
A PIC assembler language run on the Propeller chip would
definitely have ties, not only to the Basic Stamp which is a Pic,
but to run a variety of language bases, perhaps in the same
manner that we now have CPM running many new languages.
Thanks to the reminder from BradC, we are now adding
PYTHON language to the Propeller languages list. The main
link for the source of downloads is below.
However, thanks to the great work of Remy Blank, there is now a Python script that runs natively to handle communication. Although it's not as fast as the Propeller IDE, it still gets the job done just fine.
www.python.org/doc/essays/blurb.html
Python is an interpreted, object-oriented, high-level programming language with dynamic semantics. Its high-level built in data structures, combined with dynamic typing and dynamic binding, make it very attractive for Rapid Application Development, as well as for use as a scripting or glue language to connect existing components together. Python's simple, easy to learn syntax emphasizes readability and therefore reduces the cost of program maintenance. Python supports modules and packages, which encourages program modularity and code reuse. The Python interpreter and the extensive standard library are available in source or binary form without charge for all major platforms, and can be freely distributed.
Often, programmers fall in love with Python because of the increased productivity it provides. Since there is no compilation step, the edit-test-debug cycle is incredibly fast. Debugging Python programs is easy: a bug or bad input will never cause a segmentation fault. Instead, when the interpreter discovers an error, it raises an exception. When the program doesn't catch the exception, the interpreter prints a stack trace. A source level debugger allows inspection of local and global variables, evaluation of arbitrary expressions, setting breakpoints, stepping through the code a line at a time, and so on. The debugger is written in Python itself, testifying to Python's introspective power. On the other hand, often the quickest way to debug a program is to add a few print statements to the source: the fast edit-test-debug cycle makes this simple approach very effective.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_%28programming_language%29
Python is a general-purpose high-level programming language. Its design philosophy emphasizes code readability. Python claims to "combine remarkable power with very clear syntax", and its standard library is large and comprehensive. Its use of indentation for block delimiters is unusual among popular programming languages.
Gadgetman said...
Also, that list of computers and phones is not correct as some of those phones doesn't have the OPL runtime built-in. It's just that it's possible to add it afterwards.
And some are missing altogether from the list; GeoFox One, Oregon Scientific Osaris comes to mind.
It's true, none of these add-on non-propeller lists are complete. There are just too many languages to be included comprehensively in any one list. All we can do is keep our Propeller language list updated, encourage growth and add on the missing languages to the lists.
humanoido said...
Thanks to the reminder from BradC, we are now adding
PYTHON language to the Propeller languages list. The main
link for the source of downloads is below.
But why? It does not run *on* the propeller. I does not run inside an emulated environment that runs *on* the propeller. The link you posted is a python program to download the contents of an .eeprom or .binary file to the propeller. It was written back when there was no other way to load a propeller except on Windows.
Interestingly, a cursory glance at the code would indicate that the reason it is "not as fast as the Propeller IDE" is that it appears to upload the entire 32k image rather than just the code. In a lot of cases, this will slow things down by a large factor as most of the memory space is empty. Of course this code was written long before the source to the bootloader was released, and therefore the author had no insight into was was really happening on the other end of the pipe. It was a magic bit of software at the time [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
That was quite mind bending for 1963. Not a computer in sight then. Yep, I'm old enough to remember the very first episode.
I have, a while, ago played with pointing a USB web cam at my old CRT, sure it does some weird stuff.
@humanoido: I though we were only listing languages that some how can be run actually on the Propeller. So why list Python which does not?
Anyway, I notice on your global language list the "Pawn" language. Strangely enough I was looking into that yesterday. It is a C like language that runs from byte codes. The Pawns byte code interpreter is very small and written in C. I'm sure it could be made to run on the Prop under Catalina and that would then be another Propeller language. Possibly the Pawns byte codes could be interpreted directly from PASM.
hunamoid: "A PIC assembler language run on the Propeller chip... "
Are you proposing a PIC emulator for the Prop? That is the sickest thing I have heard for a long time[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
BradC/heater: Thanks for pointing this out. I thought PYTHON WAS running on the Propeller chip! So no one has it running on the Propeller? I came across some sources saying it was running, but looks like it was based on smoke and mirrors - therefore, if no one comes forward with proof, it will be retracted as a prop language until it actually does runs on a prop as a compiler or otherwise.
heater: We look forward to seeing PAWN on the Prop via Catalina! These small fitting languages are a boon for the Propeller! Well, if a PIC-PROP blows your mind, why? You never blinked an eye when the Prop ran PBASIC commands from the BASIC Stamp - the Basic Stamp IS a finessed PIC. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The Pawns byte code interpreter is a tad over 5000 lines of C not sure what it compiles down to yet. Looks like it would need Catalina with XMM.
No, I never blinked an eye, I've never even seen a BASIC Stamp. It's just that creating an emulation of the PIC to run on the Prop is even more insane than creating a Z80 or 6502 emulator[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Comments
- the language emits PASM code only for execution with no interpretation at all.
- the language emits Spin byte code - because the Spin byte code interpreter is on chip.
LMM does not qualify as native because it requires an interpreter that does not live on the chip. Bob Anderson's tool emits native PASM, ImageCraft C can emit native PASM, the Propeller tool, BSTC, and Homespun can emit PASM. There is no language that emits Spin byte code beyond startup bytes that I know of except Propeller tool, BSTC, and Homespun. If there are other implementations that natively emit PASM or Spin byte code, it would be useful to know (some forth variant maybe?).
Little if any point beyond that [noparse]:)[/noparse] People do what they need or like to do useful to more than a few others or not. Being involved seems to benefit Parallax though.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=809630
Admittedly, the original reason was simple and pure, a love of (languages and the Propeller chip), and an idea to add function to the chip by increasing the collection of working languages. However since that time, the list has greatly expanded in leaps and bounds along with the ideas and perceptions surrounding the language collection and information contributed by many diverse and greatly knowledgeable and well informed individuals.
Together, the group has worked in a cooperation to tune the list and provide more information and details to determine various applicative suitabilities for whatever projects you may have in mind, even the nostalgic ones ranging to future ones. As a team, we're determined to provide documentation and workable solutions for all known languages that can run with the Propeller chip, and, even write some new ones in the process, and to ensure steps to make retro languages workable again. This is totally amazing in itself. I think most people will see incredible value here. The value of running a choice of, say, 180 languages on one chip is absolutely fantastic and a phenomenon in itself. In fact, who knows, maybe we'll get this up to 500 and then 1000 is not far fetched.
I have expanded on the number of reasons below, and I'm sure many of the gurus in this forum could add more.
1) The list will serve everyone with a Propeller chip who wants to program in a specific language.
2) The list will provide greater language functioning and capabilities of the single chip.
3) The list will serve for various retro projects
4) It can be fun and useful to program in a familiar language that you programmed in years ago
5) There are many hours of work on the list, and this can save time for someone looking for specific information and doing research and designs
6) The list is a challenge to see exactly how many languages can be added to the Propeller chip
7) The list is documentation to show the result of thousands of hours labor by people who wrote the language
8) The list is to inspire others who are capable to write their own Propeller languages
9) More diverse languages will be available
10) Better application solving, i.e. language preference
11) Running existing programs with alternate languages
12) Combining languages for special apps
13) For your benefit
14) Fun, hobby, projects, challenges
15) For students, schools, education, learning
16) For programming
17) For the love of the languages
18) To increase the total number of languages collected
19) Obtain some credit for your language work
20) As a challenge to complete a new language
21) For special projects using the Propeller chip
22) It will help pure research
23) It will assist in various lab exercises
24) It will help when conducting quantitative and qualitative analysis
25) It will lead to smaller and/or larger systems
26) It will encourage new designs, both hardware and software
27) Give new life to a language archive that runs on new technology
28) To develop new languages for new applications
29) I think most of all, Chip Gracey has given the world something really great - the fantastic Propeller chip, through his gifted efforts, talent and knowledge, and its now time for all of us to give something back and make him proud of our efforts and success to increase the applicative value of the Propeller chip in terms of the sheer number of software languages that it can run, and open the door wide to many things truly fantastic, in which, not only in the past but today as well - no one could even fathom the prospects of this accomplishment.
So, now, I've answered your question. Can you answer my question? Can you contribute a language to our list, or submit your own creation?
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 11/28/2009 6:50:42 PM GMT
I can't speak for the others but as a quite a few of the language implementations on the list are there as a result of the ZiCog Z80 emulator I should chime in with my motivations for creating ZiCog in the first place.
1) Originally I picked up this new funky looking Propeller chip on a whim, then almost immediately decided I should learn how to program it in PASM. The original Z80 emulation on the Prop was my first PASM program after working through the examples in the manual. Writing an emulator just seemed to be a good learning exercise. That was all it was supposed to be.
2) After that the thing developed a life of its own. I found I could tack a keyboard and video output to the emulator with almost no effort. And then what about SD cards?. And then "Hey, with a few lines of code this thing can run CP/M.
3) Aside - Prior to finding the Prop I was on the way to building a real Z80 computer to run CP/M. That itself was motivated my the desire to use up a pile of old chips I have lying around and as a way to participate in the preservation of our micro computing history.
4) This all snowballed when I found that I was not alone in my lunacy. Other crazy freaks out there picked up on the emulator and contributed all sorts of ideas. This brings us to where we are today with Prop circuit boards that have ZiCog as their reason for being.
Bottom line: it's a hobby, it's for fun, it's fun I can share with others. Should anyone ever have a practical use for this, say running some irreplaceable Z80 ROM code, I'd be overjoyed.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language
And here is a generic partial list of programming languages.
A complete list, I would speculate could go into the tens of thousands of languages.
Note, many Propeller and Stamp languages are not included in this generic list.
However, it is presented here as food for ideas.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages
* 4D
* A+
* A++
* A# .NET
* A# (Axiom)
* A-0 System
* ABAP
* ABC
* ABC ALGOL
* Abel
* ABLE
* ABSET
* ABSYS
* Abundance
* ACC
* Accent
* ActForex
* Action!
* ActionScript
* Ace DASL
* ACT-III
* Ada
* Adenine
* Afnix
* Agora
* AIS Balise
* Aikido
* Alef
* ALF
* ALGOL
* Alice
* Ambi
* Amiga E
* AMOS
* AMPLE
* AngelScript
* APL
* AppleScript
* Arc
* Arduino
* Asp
* Assembly (65x02)
* Assembly (65816)
* Assembly (68000)
* Assembly (ARM)
* Assembly (PowerPC)
* Assembly (SPARC)
* Assembly (System 360)
* Assembly (Vax 11/785)
* Assembly (x86/x64)
* ATS
* AutoHotkey
* AutoIt
* Averest
* AWK
* Axum
* B
* Bash
* BASIC - Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
* bc
* BCPL
* BeanShell
* Batch (Unix)
* Bertrand
* BETA
* Bigwig
* Bistro
* BitC
* BLISS
* Blue
* Bon
* Boo
* Boomerang
* BPEL
* Brain(expletive)
* BUGSYS
* BuildProfessional
* C
* C--
* C++ - ISO/IEC 14882
* C# - ISO/IEC 23270
* C/AL
* Cach
It's also missing IBM's BAL (assembler) and JCL. JCL was a job control language based on BAL.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 12/24/2009 1:08:48 PM GMT
I have two functional cpm2.2 systems, z80, 30 mb hard drive, with 8 inch DD floppies·and a·bunch of s/w if you are interested.· Along with a stack of S-100 magazines and the 8008 newsletters.· I have one working terminal.· The computer boxes are large, with very heavy duty p/s.· If memory serves me, the machines each have 128kb memory, that was to be paged.· Also have incomplete modem board.
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Richard in Michigan
Gosh, wow. I would be extremely interested. Trouble is shipping anything that big and heavy from the states to Finland is going to be over the top expensive.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
www.linusakesson.net/software/plasma/index.php
All I get is a dead link. Is there an alternate site for download?
humanoido
"The earliest programming languages predate the invention of the computer, and were used to direct the behavior of machines such as Jacquard looms and player pianos."
In the context of computing and computers I would suggest that statement is not true. Thing is a loom or piano is not a computer. Without conditional statements, loops and some kind of internal state a loom is not a computer. Yes the punch cards and rolls used by looms and pianos do direct the machines and do have a similarity to latter computer cards and tapes. But the meaning of the symbols punched on those cards and tapes does not constitute a "computer programming language".
Unless someone can point me toward a super intelligent loom from the industrial revolution that did implement conditionals, loops etc. Which I would be more than happy to see.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
"com⋅put⋅er –noun
1. Also called processor. an electronic device designed to accept data, perform prescribed mathematical and logical operations at high speed, and display the results of these operations. Compare analog computer, digital computer.
2. a person who computes; computist."
humanoido
I'm not making any distinction about the implementation of a computer. Silicon, vacuum tube, mechanical or even human. They all have the property of being able to implement algorithms and as such they all need have an internal state and be able to make decisions and perform loops etc. So conditional statements and jumps/loops are essential for a computer programming language.
This is a rather large distinction between "languages" for music boxes, pianos and looms which are simple lists of steps always in order.
Thinks a bit....Hmm, music boxes, pianos and looms can of course have one big loop as the drum, roll, or whatever often is a big loop by construction. Perhaps these things are more evolutionary than I thought.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Post Edited (heater) : 1/18/2010 12:00:01 PM GMT
humanoido
Probably Alan Turing is the one to consult on this topic. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine
A nice description of "Turing Complete" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_completeness
[noparse][[/noparse]quote]To be Turing complete, it is enough to have conditional branching (an "if" and "goto" statement), and the ability to change memory.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Post Edited (heater) : 1/18/2010 12:14:07 PM GMT
www.altavista.com/web/results?itag=ody&kgs=1&kls=0&q=turing+complete
humanoido
CSPIN is a very useful command line compiler implementation and Dave promises some changes to improve the ease of use. Download here:
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=874404
Dave takes the award for the first Propeller-developed language in 2010. Great job Dave!
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 1/22/2010 5:27:19 AM GMT
that are added. Here is yet another list, for Propeller language development
reference.
humanoido
* A+BAT
* A+
* A++
* A# .NET
* A# (Axiom)
* Active Server Pages.Net
* A-0
* ABAP
* ABC
* ABC ALGOL
* ABLE
* ABSET
* ABSYS
* ACC
* Accent
* ActionScript
* Ace DASL
* ACT-III
* Ada
* APL
* AppleScript
* AMOS
* Arc
* AutoHotkey
* AutoIt
* AWK
* AMZI
* ASP.NET
· ···· ····
* BACI
* Baja
* BASIC
* bc
* bcompile
* BCPL
* BeanShell
* ABC ALGOL
* ABLE
* ABSET
* ABSYS
* ACC
* Accent
* ActionScript
* Ace DASL
* ACT-III
* Ada
* APL
* AppleScript
* AMOS
* Arc
* AutoHotkey
* AutoIt
* AWK
* AMZI
* ASP.NET
* C--
* C-script
* C++ - ISO/IEC 14882
* C# - ISO/IEC 23270
* C shell (csh)
* Caché ObjectScript - Caché Basic
* Caml
* Cat
* Cayenne
* C-BOT
* Cecil
* Cesil
* CFML
* Cg
* Ch interpreter
* Chapel
* CHAIN
* Charity
* Chef
* Chey
* CHILL
* CHIP-8
* chomski
* Chrome
* ChucK
* Cilk
* CICS
* CL
* Clarion
* Clean
* Clipper
* CLIST
* Clojure
* CLU
* CMS-2
* COBOL
* Cobra
* CODE
* COMAL
* Common Intermediate Language (CIL)
* Common Lisp
* Component Pascal
* COMIT
* Concurrent Clean
* Constraint Handling Rules
* Converge
* CORAL66
* Corn
* CorVision
* COWSEL
* CPL
* CSP
* CSS
* Csound
* Cue
* Curl
* Curry
* Cyclone
* Dao
* DASL
* DASL
* DarkBASIC
* DarkBASIC Professional
* Dataflex
* Datalog
* dBASE
* dc
* Deesel (formerly G)
* Delphi
* Dialect
* DinkC
* DCL
* Dialog Manager
* DIBOL
* DL/I
* Dream Maker
* Dylan
* Dynace
* Ease
* EASY
* Easy PL/I
* EASYTRIEVE PLUS
* eC (Ecere C)
* ECMAScript
* eDeveloper
* Edinburgh IMP
* Einstein
* Eiffel
* Elan
* elastiC
* Elf
* Emacs Lisp
* EGL Programming Language (EGL)
* Epigram
* Erlang
* Escapade
* Esterel
* Euclid
* Euphoria
* Euler
* EXEC
* EXEC2
* F#
* Factor
* Fan
* Felix
* Ferite
* F#
* FL
* FLOW-MATIC
* FOCAL
* FOCUS
* FOIL
* FORMAC
* Formula language
* Forth
* Fortran - ISO/IEC 1539
* Fortress
* FoxPro
* FP
* Frag Script
* Franz Lisp
* Frink
* Frontier
* F-Script
* Fuxi Programming Language
* GAAMIL
* GM
* GAP
* Gambas
* Game Maker Language
* G-code
* General Algebraic Modeling System
* Generic Java
* Gibiane
* G
* Gödel
* Godiva
* GOTRAN
* GOTO++
* GPSS
* GraphTalk
* GRASS
* Green Ada
* Green
* Groovy
* HAL/S
* HAScript
* Haskell
* HaXe
* High Level Assembly
* HTML
* HyperTalk
* IBM Basic assembly language
* IBM RPG
* ICI
* Icon
* IDL
* IKE
* IMP
* Inform
* Information Processing Language
* Informix-4GL
* Io
* IPTSCRAE
* Interactive System Productivity Facility
* J
* J#
* J++
* JADE
* JAG
* Jal
* Janus
* Java
* JavaScript
* Jim++
* JCL
* Join Java
* JOSS
* Joule
* JOVIAL
* Joy
* JScript
* JSP
* Java EE
* Java ME
* K
* KEE
* Kiev
* Korn Shell
* KIF
* Kite
* Kogut
* KRC
* KRL
* KRYPTON
* L
* LabVIEW
* Lagoona
* LANSA
* Lasso
* Lava
* Leda
* Lead
* Leadwerks Script
* Legoscript
* Leopard
* Lexico
* Lfyre
* Liberty BASIC
* Limbo
* Limnor
* LINC
* Lingo
* Lisaac
* Lisp - ISO/IEC 13816
* Lite-C
* Logo
* LOLCODE
* LPC
* LSL
* LSE
* Lua
* Lucid
* Lush
* Lustre
* LYaPAS
* LSL
* M4
* MacRuby
* MAD
* MADCAP
* MAGIC
* Magik
* Magma
* MapBasic
* Maple
* MAPPER
* M-A-R-E-K
* MARK-IV
* Mary
* Mathematica
* MATLAB
* MATA
* Maxima
* MaxScript
* Maya (MEL)
* Multiprocessor C#
* Mercury
* Mesa
* METAL
* MAD programming language
* Microcode
* MicroScript
* MillScript
* MIMIC
* Mindscript
* Miranda
* Miva
* ML
* Moby
* MODCAP
* Model 204 User Language
* Modula
* Modula-2
* Modula-3
* Mondrian
* Mortran
* Moto
* MOUSE
* MSIL
* MSL
* MONO
* MUMPS
* Napier88
* Natural
* Nemerle
* NESL
* Net.Data
* Neuralware
* NewLISP
* Newspeak
* NewtonScript
* NGL
* Nial
* NXT-G
* Nice
* Nickle
* Nosica
* Nova
* NQC
* Nu
* o:XML
* Oberon
* Objective Modula-2
* Object Lisp
* ObjectLOGO
* Object Pascal
* Objective-C
* Objective-J
* Objective Caml
* Obliq
* Objectstar
* ObjectView
* Ocaml
* occam
* occam-?
* Octave
* OmniMark
* Opal
* Open programming language
* OPS5
* ORCA/Modula-2
* Organiser Programming Language (OPL)
* Oxygene
* Oz
* PARI/GP
* Parser
* Pascal - ISO 7185
* Pawn
* PBASIC
* PCASTL
* PEARL
* Perl
* Perl Data Language
* PHP
* Phrogram
* Pico
* Piet
* Pike
* PIKT
* PILOT
* Pizza
* PL 11
* PL/0
* PL/8
* PL/B
* PL/C
* PL/I - ISO 6160
* PL/M
* PL/P
* PL/SQL
* Plankalkül
* PLD
* PLEX
* PLEXIL
* Pliant
* PNGlish
* PPL
* POP-11
* Poplog
* PORTRAN
* PostScript
* Ppc++
* Processing
* Prograph
* Progress 4GL
* Prolog
* Turbo Prolog
* Promela
* Protheus
* ProvideX
* Python
* Q
* Qi
* v
* QuakeC
* QPL
* Quikcomp
* R
* R++
* Rascal
* Ratfiv
* Ratfor
* RBScript
* rc
* REPL
* REBOL
* Recital
* Red for Ada
* Redcode
* REDO
* REFAL
* Reia
* Revolution
* REXX
* Rigal
* Rlab
* Robot Scripting Language
* RPG
* RPL
* RScript
* Ruby
* Russell Programming Language
* REALBasic
* S
* S2
* S-PLUS
* S-Lang
* SAIL
* SAKO
* SAM76
* SAS
* Sather
* Scala
* ScalPL
* SCAR
* SCATRAN
* Scheme
* Scilab
* Script.NET
* Seccia
* Sed
* Seed7
* Self
* SETL
* Shadow Programming Interface
* ShadowScript
* Shift Script
* SIGNAL
* SiMPLE
* SIMPOL
* SIMSCRIPT
* Simula
* SISAL
* Slate
* SLIP
* SMALL
* Small
* Smalltalk
* SNOBOL
* SPITBOL
* Snowball
* SPARK
* Spice
* SPIN
* SP/k
* SPL/1 - aka SPL/I
* SPS (1620)
* 1620
* Squirrel
* SR
* SRF
* SSL
* Standard ML
* StringLang
* Subtext
* SuperCollider
* Suneido
* SYMPL
* SyncCharts
* Synergy/DE
* SystemVerilog
* T
* TACL
* TACPOL
* TagsMe
* TADS
* TIE
* Transaction Application Language
* Tcl
* Transact-SQL
* teco
* TELCOMP
* Telon
* Tempo
* thinBasic
* Titanium
* TI-Basic
* Today
* Tom
* TOM
* Topspeed - see Clarion
* TorqueScript
* tpu
* Trac
* Trine
* TTCN
* Turbo Pascal
* Turing
* TUTOR
* Tutorial D
* TXL
* Ubercode
* Ultra 32
* Unicon
* Uniface
* Unix shell
* Unlambda
* UnrealScript
* V
* Vala
* VBA
* VDM++
* VDM-SL
* Verilog
* VHDL
* Visual Assembler
* Visual Basic
* Visual Basic .NET
* Visual DataFlex
* Visual DialogScript
* Visual FoxPro
* Visual J++
* Visual Objects
* VBScript
* VX-REXX
* Vvvv
* Water
* WATFOR
* WATFIV
* WAXHTML
* WebQL
* Whitespace
* Winbatch
* WinDev
* Windows PowerShell
* X++
* X#
* X10
* Xbase++
* XBL
* xbScript
* xHarbour
* XL
* XOTcl
* XPL
* XPL0
* XQuery
* XSLT - See XPath
* Y
* YACC
* YAFL
* Yellow
* Yorick
* Y
* Z
* Z notation
* Zonnon
* ZOPL
* ZPL
* ZZT-oop
It is said there are 2,500 languages in this list:
home.nvg.org/~sk/lang/lang.html
people.ku.edu/~nkinners/LangList/Extras/langlist.htm
www.scriptol.com/programming/list-programming-languages.php
people.ku.edu/~nkinners/LangList/Extras/langlist.htm
Google has one of the most interesting lists here
www.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/
Computer Languages History (and list)
www.levenez.com/lang/
Computing Languages List
www.hypernews.org/HyperNews/get/computing/lang-list.html
This source is a Dictionary of Programming Languages and has addtl. links
cgibin.erols.com/ziring/cgi-bin/cep/cep.pl
humanoido
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
only to see an infinite number of mirrors in the reflection of
the first? I'm beginning to think the number of computer
programming languages is much like the two mirrors, i.e.
they appear to go on forever.
humanoido
I did that recently and put my puppy in between the mirrors. It confused her [noparse]:)[/noparse]
It was always a favourite trick of mine in the TV studio. Visual feedback can make for some crazy effects [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Just browsing the list and picking a language at random, but Jal is a compiled language that generates PIC assembly. How is that relevant to the Propeller?
And while I'm here.. Python? O_o
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
"up for grabs" when it comes to Propeller implementation.
A PIC assembler language run on the Propeller chip would
definitely have ties, not only to the Basic Stamp which is a Pic,
but to run a variety of language bases, perhaps in the same
manner that we now have CPM running many new languages.
humanoido
PYTHON language to the Propeller languages list. The main
link for the source of downloads is below.
humanoido
propeller.wikispaces.com/Linux+Development
However, thanks to the great work of Remy Blank, there is now a Python script that runs natively to handle communication. Although it's not as fast as the Propeller IDE, it still gets the job done just fine.
www.python.org/doc/essays/blurb.html
Python is an interpreted, object-oriented, high-level programming language with dynamic semantics. Its high-level built in data structures, combined with dynamic typing and dynamic binding, make it very attractive for Rapid Application Development, as well as for use as a scripting or glue language to connect existing components together. Python's simple, easy to learn syntax emphasizes readability and therefore reduces the cost of program maintenance. Python supports modules and packages, which encourages program modularity and code reuse. The Python interpreter and the extensive standard library are available in source or binary form without charge for all major platforms, and can be freely distributed.
Often, programmers fall in love with Python because of the increased productivity it provides. Since there is no compilation step, the edit-test-debug cycle is incredibly fast. Debugging Python programs is easy: a bug or bad input will never cause a segmentation fault. Instead, when the interpreter discovers an error, it raises an exception. When the program doesn't catch the exception, the interpreter prints a stack trace. A source level debugger allows inspection of local and global variables, evaluation of arbitrary expressions, setting breakpoints, stepping through the code a line at a time, and so on. The debugger is written in Python itself, testifying to Python's introspective power. On the other hand, often the quickest way to debug a program is to add a few print statements to the source: the fast edit-test-debug cycle makes this simple approach very effective.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_%28programming_language%29
Python is a general-purpose high-level programming language. Its design philosophy emphasizes code readability. Python claims to "combine remarkable power with very clear syntax", and its standard library is large and comprehensive. Its use of indentation for block delimiters is unusual among popular programming languages.
It's true, none of these add-on non-propeller lists are complete. There are just too many languages to be included comprehensively in any one list. All we can do is keep our Propeller language list updated, encourage growth and add on the missing languages to the lists.
humanoido
But why? It does not run *on* the propeller. I does not run inside an emulated environment that runs *on* the propeller. The link you posted is a python program to download the contents of an .eeprom or .binary file to the propeller. It was written back when there was no other way to load a propeller except on Windows.
Interestingly, a cursory glance at the code would indicate that the reason it is "not as fast as the Propeller IDE" is that it appears to upload the entire 32k image rather than just the code. In a lot of cases, this will slow things down by a large factor as most of the memory space is empty. Of course this code was written long before the source to the bootloader was released, and therefore the author had no insight into was was really happening on the other end of the pipe. It was a magic bit of software at the time [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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Life may be "too short", but it's the longest thing we ever do.
Did you know that opening graphics sequence of the original Doctor Who series was exactly created from video feedback and mirrors? www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF2x5IKxmAQ&feature=PlayList&p=C8D8647F7E8FD7CF&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=34
That was quite mind bending for 1963. Not a computer in sight then. Yep, I'm old enough to remember the very first episode.
I have, a while, ago played with pointing a USB web cam at my old CRT, sure it does some weird stuff.
@humanoido: I though we were only listing languages that some how can be run actually on the Propeller. So why list Python which does not?
Anyway, I notice on your global language list the "Pawn" language. Strangely enough I was looking into that yesterday. It is a C like language that runs from byte codes. The Pawns byte code interpreter is very small and written in C. I'm sure it could be made to run on the Prop under Catalina and that would then be another Propeller language. Possibly the Pawns byte codes could be interpreted directly from PASM.
hunamoid: "A PIC assembler language run on the Propeller chip... "
Are you proposing a PIC emulator for the Prop? That is the sickest thing I have heard for a long time[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.
heater: We look forward to seeing PAWN on the Prop via Catalina! These small fitting languages are a boon for the Propeller! Well, if a PIC-PROP blows your mind, why? You never blinked an eye when the Prop ran PBASIC commands from the BASIC Stamp - the Basic Stamp IS a finessed PIC. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
humanoido
See the Pawn here: www.compuphase.com/pawn/pawn.htm#DOWNLOAD_PKG
The Pawns byte code interpreter is a tad over 5000 lines of C not sure what it compiles down to yet. Looks like it would need Catalina with XMM.
No, I never blinked an eye, I've never even seen a BASIC Stamp. It's just that creating an emulation of the PIC to run on the Prop is even more insane than creating a Z80 or 6502 emulator[noparse]:)[/noparse]
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For me, the past is not over yet.