How reliable do you find the Propeller to be in an industrial environment?
I was considering it for use in some projects but I am reluctant for using it in critical applications.
I guess it's more a case of me gaining some comfort in knowing that is has already been used like this successfully.
I would be interested in how other forum memebers have used the Prop in an industrial environments.
So, come on fellow Propeller users is your Propeller used for business or pleasure (or both) ????
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 2/2/2009 11:44:52 PM GMT
Coley,
It is A1 - I have used it in quite a few Industrial apps ... reaction to my first one started - http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=630275... I have had no issues and find it very robust .. Every thing gets a 'Prop' these days ! I simply couldn't recommend it highly enough ..so go ahead by all means .. you will not be sorry..
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Thanks John, I must have missed that thread, it was an interesting read.
I know from our tests with PropGFX Lite, with all the cogs running flat out a 96MHz, the Prop got a little warm but certainly nothing to worry about and that gives me a little comfort, but, out there in the real world is another matter and you can never be really sure what other extraneous influences there will be and how they will affect the Prop.
In what sort of environments have you used the Prop?
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 2/2/2009 11:44:59 PM GMT
Coley,
Props buried in various 3phase panels with inductive load switching .. I use LC suppression on outputs .. all I/O's have optoisolalators .. various bespoke machines and PLC replacement apps .. no failures ..
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Wow John, almost looks like 80's technology with all the through-hole and 40-pin dip! Wish we had the prop back then though.
I second your statement that the prop is A1 in industrial applications. I have done so many designs I have almost lost count already but they have proven themselves in all these applications. Like you everything gets a prop now, even those projects where a common microcontroller would work I find it easier and not much more expensive to use a prop. In fact there are even cost savings because the prop can eliminate those special interfaces. Also, I haven't had one failure yet though I am known to be brutal with prototypes, they just keep running.
Thinking back on previous designs I did before the prop I can see where it would have simplified the design. In fact, there are some older designs that need revamping and guess what will be under the bonnet this time?
There are many times though where I could do with more memory, more cogs, more pins, and more speed. What caught me recently was the slow speed of some of my main loops which were coded in Spin. Measuring the timings of these loops on the scope surprised me a little as I found some fairly simple statements taking 100's of microseconds. In conventional processors I could always code some section into assembler but this is not possible with the prop. I know, I know, just dedicate a cog, but there's none left sometimes. A compiler listing would sure be helpful although the Spin environment does allow me to make changes and test these quickly.
One particularly good reason for using props in critical applications is the segregated and deterministic operation of the device (assuming you have enough cogs). In conventional micros you would run interrupts and tasks to accomplish the job on a single core but that made editing and debugging and thus quality assurance that much more difficult. I love it when you can leave a cog to run code that you know will always run regardless of the demands placed on other concurrent processes.
Peter Jakacki said...
One particularly good reason for using props in critical applications is the segregated and deterministic operation of the device (assuming you have enough cogs). In conventional micros you would run interrupts and tasks to accomplish the job on a single core but that made editing and debugging and thus quality assurance that much more difficult. I love it when you can leave a cog to run code that you know will always run regardless of the demands placed on other concurrent processes.
Peter,
Nicely said - covers it in a nutshell .. I second that ..it just seems easier now to use a Prop !
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
The propeller is just great for this sort of stuff. I built my own automated microtome using the propeller, so easy compared to a PC or other controllers, can show details but only after some publications.
Peter Jakacki said...
One particularly good reason for using props in critical applications is the segregated and deterministic operation of the device (assuming you have enough cogs). In conventional micros you would run interrupts and tasks to accomplish the job on a single core but that made editing and debugging and thus quality assurance that much more difficult. I love it when you can leave a cog to run code that you know will always run regardless of the demands placed on other concurrent processes.
Peter,
Nicely said - covers it in a nutshell .. I second that ..it just seems easier now to use a Prop !
Regards,
John
I'd third that. I've designed a couple industrial apps using the propeller, several as one-of-a-kind machines, and several as production units (including the upcoming ProPLC). Admittedly, some of the prototypes were badly prone to feedback and EM interference, but the Prop hasn't failed yet. Though, the 40-pin DIP does make it look rather dated.
Regards,
Craig
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
My system: 1.6 GHz AMD Turion64 X2, 4GB DDR2, 256MB ATI Radeon Graphics card, 15.4" Widescreen HD Screen
I have a duel boot of Ubuntu Linux and Windows Vista. Vista, because it came with the PC, Ubuntu because I like software that works.
"Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows."
Use The Best...
Linux for Servers
Mac for Graphics
Palm for Mobility
Windows for Solitaire
No PC ... all Propeller .. Some using the 1024x768 tile driver others 1280x1024 tile driver .. Parameter and compensation info stored on aux. eeproms and/or SD Card .. connection to Shop floor data collection systems etc ..
Rgds,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
How many Propellers do you have in these machines? One of the pictures above look like a stack of cards with Props, true? If you are using multiple Props, how are you handeling communication among them?
I am looking for a good industrial application to use the Propeller on. Hmmm....
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Timothy D. Swieter
www.brilldea.com·- check out the uOLED-IOC, an I/O expansion for the uOLED-96-PROP www.tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
@Timothy,
I have various propeller based custom machines ..and·numerous·prop based control upgrades - ·most use only one propeller .. However the one you mentioned has 3 propellers - mainly due to the fact that that machine is actually 3 machines rolled into one .. Setup as one master 2 slaves with custom serial based protocol .. which works quite well .. all receive however if the first identifying character does not match the specific controller - it is ignored. This method was chosen to match other aspects of the process .. it did not require clk sync etc .. However I am currently working on a multi -prop controller where that will be key .. I will update on progress.
Rgds,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
John - for your applications, did you design a generic PCB that you apply to each project or do design a PCB per project? Are you open to sharing schematic or information about your design and what you did to make it robust for the industrial environment?
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Timothy D. Swieter
www.brilldea.com·- check out the uOLED-IOC, an I/O expansion for the uOLED-96-PROP www.tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
Timothy,
I started with a design specifically for one machine - but quickly had applications which this board suited - Since then I have made 4 other propeller based designs - these were machine specific. In terms of Robustness I use LC (inductor/Cap) suppression on all I/O lines - optoisolators, photovoltaic ssr's on outputs .. good ground planing and quality components ... no real innovation there .. the prop just works and is extremely well suited to industrial applications. Initial customer request was for socketed DIP components - this is no longer a requirement so latest versions are Q44 based.
I have since made a dedicated 'Processor Board' with Xport module (reduces the overhead for prop based IPstack) RS232,SDCard,Realtime clock VGA,KB and mouse - with IDC headers to dedicated multiple I/O boards various variants of I2C based I/O boards .. some all Output ...some all input ... some 50/50. Analog module still in dev.
So the 'Processor' is common - depending on the application the I/O p.c.b's are chosen. If you want specs for individual components used by all means ..
As previously mentioned I am looking at multiple sync'd props ... I must talk to Alberto (aka BTX) to reduce the trials (not lazy just busy!) - as he used multiple props in his application ... I know it came up for discussion initially but I can't seem to remember what route he chose.
Regards,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Hehe Quatro! One in the eye to those who say the beanie will stop the Prop' from getting into industry - way to go (Geez I wish I had your job!).
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Again, sweet. I have used plenty of AB SLC and seen plenty more in the field I am in. However I don't think I can convince a rollercoaster manufacturer to switch to a Propeller based PLC just yet for the safety system! I would certainly use it in some my other machine applications though because of cost. Keep up the great work John!
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Timothy D. Swieter, E.I. www.brilldea.com - Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, uOLED-IOC, eProto for SunSPOT, BitScope www.tdswieter.com
Thanks Timothy - After a number of resounding successes with initial Projects my customers are more than convinced when it comes to P8x32A based solutions . While it is great to be working with the Prop on a daily basis - I rarely get a chance to 'play' with it - I have loads of personal projects that I want to do - but just don't seem to get the time ..
Rgds,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ 'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 2/2/2009 2:33:59 PM GMT
QuattroRS4
Posts: 916
Comments
How reliable do you find the Propeller to be in an industrial environment?
I was considering it for use in some projects but I am reluctant for using it in critical applications.
I guess it's more a case of me gaining some comfort in knowing that is has already been used like this successfully.
I would be interested in how other forum memebers have used the Prop in an industrial environments.
So, come on fellow Propeller users is your Propeller used for business or pleasure (or both) ????
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 2/2/2009 11:44:52 PM GMT
It is A1 - I have used it in quite a few Industrial apps ... reaction to my first one started -
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=630275... I have had no issues and find it very robust .. Every thing gets a 'Prop' these days ! I simply couldn't recommend it highly enough ..so go ahead by all means .. you will not be sorry..
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
I know from our tests with PropGFX Lite, with all the cogs running flat out a 96MHz, the Prop got a little warm but certainly nothing to worry about and that gives me a little comfort, but, out there in the real world is another matter and you can never be really sure what other extraneous influences there will be and how they will affect the Prop.
In what sort of environments have you used the Prop?
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 2/2/2009 11:44:59 PM GMT
Props buried in various 3phase panels with inductive load switching .. I use LC suppression on outputs .. all I/O's have optoisolalators .. various bespoke machines and PLC replacement apps .. no failures ..
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
I second your statement that the prop is A1 in industrial applications. I have done so many designs I have almost lost count already but they have proven themselves in all these applications. Like you everything gets a prop now, even those projects where a common microcontroller would work I find it easier and not much more expensive to use a prop. In fact there are even cost savings because the prop can eliminate those special interfaces. Also, I haven't had one failure yet though I am known to be brutal with prototypes, they just keep running.
Thinking back on previous designs I did before the prop I can see where it would have simplified the design. In fact, there are some older designs that need revamping and guess what will be under the bonnet this time?
There are many times though where I could do with more memory, more cogs, more pins, and more speed. What caught me recently was the slow speed of some of my main loops which were coded in Spin. Measuring the timings of these loops on the scope surprised me a little as I found some fairly simple statements taking 100's of microseconds. In conventional processors I could always code some section into assembler but this is not possible with the prop. I know, I know, just dedicate a cog, but there's none left sometimes. A compiler listing would sure be helpful although the Spin environment does allow me to make changes and test these quickly.
One particularly good reason for using props in critical applications is the segregated and deterministic operation of the device (assuming you have enough cogs). In conventional micros you would run interrupts and tasks to accomplish the job on a single core but that made editing and debugging and thus quality assurance that much more difficult. I love it when you can leave a cog to run code that you know will always run regardless of the demands placed on other concurrent processes.
*Peter*
Peter,
Nicely said - covers it in a nutshell .. I second that ..it just seems easier now to use a Prop !
Regards,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
The propeller is just great for this sort of stuff. I built my own automated microtome using the propeller, so easy compared to a PC or other controllers, can show details but only after some publications.
Graham
I'd third that. I've designed a couple industrial apps using the propeller, several as one-of-a-kind machines, and several as production units (including the upcoming ProPLC). Admittedly, some of the prototypes were badly prone to feedback and EM interference, but the Prop hasn't failed yet. Though, the 40-pin DIP does make it look rather dated.
Regards,
Craig
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
My system: 1.6 GHz AMD Turion64 X2, 4GB DDR2, 256MB ATI Radeon Graphics card, 15.4" Widescreen HD Screen
I have a duel boot of Ubuntu Linux and Windows Vista. Vista, because it came with the PC, Ubuntu because I like software that works.
"Failure is not an option -- it comes bundled with Windows."
Use The Best...
Linux for Servers
Mac for Graphics
Palm for Mobility
Windows for Solitaire
Excellent Job !!!!!!!!!! very nice machines !!!
CONGRATULATIONS !
The VGA screen is controlled by proppeller too, or you have a PC, with a dedicated software into the machine ?
Looks great.
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Regards.
Alberto.
Thanks ..
No PC ... all Propeller .. Some using the 1024x768 tile driver others 1280x1024 tile driver .. Parameter and compensation info stored on aux. eeproms and/or SD Card .. connection to Shop floor data collection systems etc ..
Rgds,
John
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
I am looking for a good industrial application to use the Propeller on. Hmmm....
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Timothy D. Swieter
www.brilldea.com·- check out the uOLED-IOC, an I/O expansion for the uOLED-96-PROP
www.tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
I have various propeller based custom machines ..and·numerous·prop based control upgrades - ·most use only one propeller .. However the one you mentioned has 3 propellers - mainly due to the fact that that machine is actually 3 machines rolled into one .. Setup as one master 2 slaves with custom serial based protocol .. which works quite well .. all receive however if the first identifying character does not match the specific controller - it is ignored. This method was chosen to match other aspects of the process .. it did not require clk sync etc .. However I am currently working on a multi -prop controller where that will be key .. I will update on progress.
Rgds,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Timothy D. Swieter
www.brilldea.com·- check out the uOLED-IOC, an I/O expansion for the uOLED-96-PROP
www.tdswieter.com
One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode
I started with a design specifically for one machine - but quickly had applications which this board suited - Since then I have made 4 other propeller based designs - these were machine specific. In terms of Robustness I use LC (inductor/Cap) suppression on all I/O lines - optoisolators, photovoltaic ssr's on outputs .. good ground planing and quality components ... no real innovation there .. the prop just works and is extremely well suited to industrial applications. Initial customer request was for socketed DIP components - this is no longer a requirement so latest versions are Q44 based.
I have since made a dedicated 'Processor Board' with Xport module (reduces the overhead for prop based IPstack) RS232,SDCard,Realtime clock VGA,KB and mouse - with IDC headers to dedicated multiple I/O boards various variants of I2C based I/O boards .. some all Output ...some all input ... some 50/50. Analog module still in dev.
So the 'Processor' is common - depending on the application the I/O p.c.b's are chosen. If you want specs for individual components used by all means ..
As previously mentioned I am looking at multiple sync'd props ... I must talk to Alberto (aka BTX) to reduce the trials (not lazy just busy!) - as he used multiple props in his application ... I know it came up for discussion initially but I can't seem to remember what route he chose.
Regards,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Kind Regards,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Rgds,
JT
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Timothy D. Swieter, E.I.
www.brilldea.com·- Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, uOLED-IOC, eProto fo SunSPOT, BitScope
www.sxmicro.com - a blog·exploring the SX micro
www.tdswieter.com
I built a lot of controllers in years gone by. Would have loved a prop back then. Now it is just a hobby.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Timothy D. Swieter, E.I.
www.brilldea.com - Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, uOLED-IOC, eProto for SunSPOT, BitScope
www.tdswieter.com
Rgds,
John Twomey
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 2/2/2009 2:33:59 PM GMT