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Another prop industrial App

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  • BTXBTX Posts: 674
    edited 2009-02-02 16:02
    Great Jhon !!!

    The pict during.jpg, is a test ? or you have the same problems as me, when I need to finish a wiring "nicely" smile.gif

    What are those machines for ? What they do ?
    Nice boards !!!

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    Regards.

    Alberto.
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-02-02 16:34
    Alberto,
    lol ..... Yeah 'during' test .. not saying that things looked very different after test ... I know exactly what you mean though !!smilewinkgrin.gif
    Regards,
    John

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 22,999
    edited 2009-02-02 22:33
    Nicely done, John! You're lucky to have industrial customers willing to step outside the AB PLC box. But I wonder if installing an "oddball" (to most plant engineers) system makes you a little more indispensible (i.e. "on call") than you might like to be.

    -Phil
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-02-03 00:54
    Phil,
    That was an initial concern - especially as the initial machines were new prop based machines in a 24/7 environment - Yeah there were a few initial 'Call outs' - mostly due to something unexpected - easily sorted by a bit of code - but all involved have embraced the technology .. so far at least !!

    Rgds,
    John

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • Shawn LoweShawn Lowe Posts: 632
    edited 2009-02-03 14:52
    I know what your saying about getting out of the AB loop. My last job was Field Service Technician and most my customers would not ever CONSIDER anything but AB. Good job Quattro!

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    Shawn Lowe


    When all else fails.....procrastinate!
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-02-12 13:59
    Just adding more ....

    Regards,
    ·········· John





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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
    2576 x 1932 - 805K
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-03-12 16:54
    @QuattroRS4

    Dredging up this old faithful thread can't hurt.

    Do you do all the setup for these machines, or are there some user programmable settings?

    Are you using PLC compatible io for all controls? If so is the protocol difficult?

    Are any of your machines hooked to the internet in any way?

    I have an upcoming project an I am weighing the pros and con of something like a cuwin + plc io vs prop +?
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-03-13 00:22
    Erik,
    All custom control P.C.B's with 24v DC I/O's for standard I/O's·others include custom A to D·modules depending on application·. Some of these machines are fixed repetitive task machines - so those do not have or require user settings. Others have multiple user configurable settings - I use SD Card or Auxillary EEprom - depending on the specific application - Obviously the machines requiring frequent changes use SDCard and very infrequent changes - I use the AUX EEprom.

    I have ethernet/Internet enabled machines - for machine status and statistics logs etc .. I use either Lantronics XPORT or Digi connect ME modules as there is little code overhead.

    I's say run with the Propeller based option - I haven't looked back since - with multiple machines in 24/7/365 apps I have not had one Prop failure - not as much as a tickle ! I say 'Go for It' ! You will not be disappointed.

    Regards,
    John Twomey

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2009-03-13 00:43
    John's apps are inspiring and I am waiting for an opportunity to design machine control with the Prop myself. Is there any sense in having a small group of Propeller users create our own control system hardware parts and pieces? I thought about this a while ago, and I am sure other have too, of a Prop PLC like device. Although I don't really want to use the word PLC. I was thinking a Prop Board with pluggable I/O modules for various types of inputs/outputs/communication protocols.

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    Timothy D. Swieter, E.I.
    www.brilldea.com - Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, 3.0" LCD Composite video display, eProto for SunSPOT
    www.tdswieter.com
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-03-13 01:00
    Timothy,
    I'd like to see that too - and I also agree to avoiding the term 'PLC' ..

    Regards,
    John Twomey

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-03-13 01:05
    is that not what spin studio is? otherwise io expanders and the props own pins work for any kind of input and output you want. code security is an issue which I have started to tackle with my propmod but that is not amune to physical attack. I am working on a black box type propeller system with full control over all 28 to 448 io pins that is amune to physical attack but I am a little ways off on that.

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    Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2009-03-13 01:08
    Well - yes, Spin Studio is a similar concept. I was thinking of taking it a step further though and "industrializing" it for the purposes of machine control.

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    Timothy D. Swieter, E.I.
    www.brilldea.com - Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, 3.0" LCD Composite video display, eProto for SunSPOT
    www.tdswieter.com
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-03-13 01:11
    well other then changing the connectors out to screw in type and making new modules for it you could use as is.

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    Need to make your prop design easier or secure? Get a PropMod has crystal, eeprom, and programing header in a 40 pin dip 0.7" pitch module with uSD reader, and RTC options.
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-03-13 01:11
    Mctrivia - A 'robust industrial application' would require at least the following

    * Good Ground Planing
    * OptoIsolated I/O's
    * 24vDC I/O capability (standard industrial control voltage)
    * I/O and Supply suppression
    * RoHS compliancy (in Europe anyway)
    * CE and or other testing and compliancy
    * Careful component selection - temps, certification etc.

    Regards,
    John Twomey

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.

    Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 3/13/2009 1:31:18 AM GMT
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-03-13 02:46
    That is not a bad idea Timothy. I am new enough in the (plc? industrial control) field that I could use some expert advice at minimum. If there was reasonably priced prop hardware available that was compatible with industrial controls it might be that I would choose that route.

    If my project happens and I decide for sure to go prop I would be willing to do some pcb layout or something towards that end.

    The project is for controlling a gasifier and they want to be able to have some control over internet, but I haven't studied that sufficiently to know whether quattros solution will do what they want, or if some prop combo will work.
  • Timothy D. SwieterTimothy D. Swieter Posts: 1,613
    edited 2009-03-13 03:04
    Erik - what do you mean by compatible? I think of the PLC or the Prop Controller as different tools to be applied. In general, designing control system is a method or process, and the tools used to get the job done depend on experience, system requirements and personal preferences. Using a PLC vs a Prop controller may require some different implementation process, each with advantages and disadvantages. For safety systems, there is no way I would use a Prop - at least not without lots of time and money in design and analysis. I would rather implement a safety PLC properly because those answer a host of issues I can't begin to tackle with a custom Prop design.

    I worked for a client that built automated or semi-automated brazing machines. They used Allen Bradley hardware mostly, but those machines were simple. That was a couple years ago and our company has done work for them off and on. If I had an opportunity now, I would propose a Prop Based system because it would really reduce the cost of the controls since the machine was simple, it really didn't need a SLC505 PLC. Of course, their clients wanted easily serviced/replaced equipment, so they may have to coach their customers into using the custom controls. The system I envision looks like many of the pictures that John has posted.

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    Timothy D. Swieter, E.I.
    www.brilldea.com - Prop Blade, LED Painter, RGB LEDs, 3.0" LCD Composite video display, eProto for SunSPOT
    www.tdswieter.com
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-03-13 12:45
    By compatible I mean electrically compatible.

    I am starting a new thread as not to hijack this one.
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-04-08 02:33
    @quattro. Would you be willing to post a schematic of some of you isolated IO and other things? I am curious about -

    Are you stepping 24v down twice with linear regulators?

    How isolated should relays controlling 24v be? Is a common ground a no no?

    Are you optoisolating the relay control for any reason?

    What are you doing about IO and supply suppression? TVS?

    Do you connect the earth ground of 110 supply to your board?
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-04-23 23:37
    Erik,
    On the control side I use a series resistor prior to first reg.·but 24v DC direct to output stages.

    1.Usually I use SSR's as opposed to relays both AC and DC load types..

    2.Common ground is not a No No - .. that depends on the app.

    3.Usually I tend to employ opto isolators on gereral purpose I/O's. TLP521-4, or PS2502-4 or similar for inputs. I tend to use photovoltaics (basically miniature SSR) e.g PVDZ172N for small load outputs. Larger SSR's for heay loads. Analog I/O's by their nature are a little more difficult to isolate.

    4.I use LC suppressors (inductors/Caps) on supply and I/O's. and obviously reverse biased diode if switching inductive loads. Further on I use RC (resistor-capacitor) Contact suppressors on contactors.

    5. 85-264v 50/60Hz PSU with 24VDC O/P are used for single phase machines (that's 230VAC here) but to facilitate export machines that falls within the capability of these PSU's - have just to alter the associated MCB. These have Ground of the DC PSU tied to earth... I presume that was the question.
    Many of the machines have 3Phase and Earth with no neutral (380VAC to 480VAC) - for the no neutral installations I use Siemens SITOP PSU's some of these have a dual live supply option (L1,L2,PE) e.g 6EP1334-3BA00. For three phase with neutral these can be N,L,PE .. I try to balance the phase load as much as possible and tend to choose which phase I use depending on the balance so that would mean either L1 or L2 or L3, N,PE.

    I hope this answers some of your questions..

    Regards,
    John Twomey

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.

    Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 4/23/2009 11:42:52 PM GMT
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2009-04-24 10:35
    Any reason an inductor/cap or RC is better than a tvs?
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2009-04-24 14:52
    Erik,
    Previously I found that the LC suppression for supply and normal non-inductive I/O's to perform well .. I have used transient voltage suppression diodes (TVS diodes) in applications .. the PVDZ172N devices that I mentioned previously have a HEXFET switching stage that incorporates an inbuilt reverse biased diode for protection - HEXFETs are used in and ideal for a variety of inductive load devices - motor drive, Switched mode power supplies to name but a few with excellent - EMI immunity figures - so by incorporating LC suppression in conjunction with these devices - it adds a further protection layer.

    I employ RC suppression accross relay and contactor contacts as 'spark arrestors' - stopping contact spark and contact wear..

    Regards,
    John

    ▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2010-06-18 16:27
    Yet another - this is an assembly machine ...

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    'Those who can, do.Those who can’t, teach.'
    'Convince a man against his will, he's of the same opinion still.'



    Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 6/18/2010 4:32:09 PM GMT
    1792 x 1312 - 685K
    1792 x 1312 - 660K
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 908
    edited 2021-03-11 08:16

    Another one from 2016 during commissioning .. 8 Props .. 6 robots and a PC!

  • ColeyColey Posts: 1,049

    Cool, good to see you are still around John ;-)

  • Coley ... Good to hear from you Pal .. Yeah have been off the radar for a bit !

  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,863

    I kinda like socketed DIP devices for industrial controls. At least one has the possibility of bringing a piece of equipment back to life at 2am on a Sunday.

    Allen Bradley: We came up against this with US big-auto and so we simply used AB switchgear and power supplies, etc. For one customer, we included a SLC-5 and gave it a menial task like monitoring hydraulic oil temperature 😂
    In the top corner of the control panel, we had our own high-tech-looking aluminium enclosure with a PC motherboard and home-grown controller boards, doing all the work 😂

    Hey, the stipulation was "must use AB" and so we did 👍

  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 17,761

    IMHO sockets cause way more problems than they solve, and even more so today with cheap sockets.

    We proved this in the late 80's where returns dropped significantly once sockets were removed. We were shipping > 100K units pa. This was before the savings in cost which also was not insignificant as the chips could be soldered directly into the pcbs, saving a later manual step of inserting the ICs into the sockets on top of the socket costs.

  • @Mickster said:
    I kinda like socketed DIP devices for industrial controls. At least one has the possibility of bringing a piece of equipment back to life at 2am on a Sunday.
    ...

    Do you still find these in operation, really ?

    Not so long ago I saw a Mitsubishi controller from something like 30 years ago that, while contained some DIP parts, these were unmarked (save for some Mitsubishi specific part numbers you couldn't "google out" no matter how hard you tried) and generously soldered on and lacquered so thick I was surprised the lacquer didn't peal off after all these years of heavy use in harsh conditions.

  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,353

    That'd be "conformal coating", designed for surviving in harsh conditions.

  • MicksterMickster Posts: 1,863

    Well the part-count is much lower today, than the '80s and we still have all kinds of pin/sockets with edge/ribbon connectors.

    It's not really a matter of 30 years from now, it's when you get some klutz of a maintenance guy who somehow manages to stick 115v AC on a 24v DC opto-coupler input. A DIP is easily replaced but an SMD means pulling the board out, etc.

    Another one is when you're laying on the floor, almost breaking your neck and you need to get your DMM probes on to the chip pins. :#

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