There is no provision for VGA on the current Lite or Full versions.
There also is no provision for VRAM on there as it would require a complete redesign and I think the project would move totally in a different direction.
I have some ideas that I am going to experiment with in the near future for the Full version and this may even include moving away from a Propeller based design.
I don't really want to do that though but there would be benefits especially with respecty to protecting the IP.
Regards,
Coley
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I was wondering, is there some way for the host CPU to be able to synchronize graphics commands with the start or end of a video frame? I'm not seeing any pins in the pinout diagram that could qualify as a vblank interrupt pin...
Yeah, you can query the Sync, and you have a command for waitsync in databus mode, also the graphics side has a command for wait display before continuing. and you have a flip screen command in 2 colour and 4 colour bitmap mode, and 8bit mode.
@Baggers - Gee whiz that PropGFX is cool, but good god man, does it need that may wires?! lol just kidding, looks like my proto for ProFI - Prop powered Precision Fuel Injection system, no laptop for tunning!
I'd be interested on the full specs of the prop gfx when it's ready, prob be interested in buying one, being an american, i'd be looking for the NTSC / VGA version of course.
@RinksCustoms, Thanks, [noparse]:)[/noparse] you can just use Serial mode, but then it's slower comms wise [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I'll knock up the full specs hopefully today, when I get some spare time.
As for NTSC mode, it's PAL/NTSC software switchable, funny thing is my Hybrid movie player can play the same movie in either PAL / NTSC [noparse]:)[/noparse] without affecting the sound track [noparse]:)[/noparse] So DLair plays PAL or NTSC too, and my Joypad Hero game.
Thanks, nope, they're not compressed yet, just a bitmap for each frame, the frame rate is fixed to 12.5 fps, to cater for being in PAL or NTSC mode [noparse]:)[/noparse] as I made it not care which mode you were in, for PAL and NTSC users.
If DAC chip in PropGFX Full can provide more colors and higher resolution, why not just add this chip into PropGFX Lite as well?
How much would this chip cost?
If the Full version is not going to use the Propeller, why call it "PropGFX"?
From the pictures posted, it seems like insufficient colors is a problem.
Could it be that 256 colors is not enough?
Native propeller video does not produce 256 colors.
The waitvid command directly does 1,2 and 8 bits of color per pixel. However, the video generators only provide for 16 colors, 5 intensities per color (unless one wants to push the standard a little and get risky with the display), and 6 grey scales.
That's 86 standard safe colors.
If artifacting is used on NTSC, many more can be done. I've got a quick and dirty demo that puts over 400 colors on the screen, but then it's a matter of screen memory to handle that color depth --there isn't enough in the Prop to do any kind of resolution. That's really 9 bits or so. Rounding it down to 8, would give a bit better result than the standard set, but would only be an NTSC thing.
I think max resolution on that would be 160 pixels horizontally too. If there was screen memory, funky display timing would bump that to 320, but would also be a non-spec signal.
william chan said...
If the Full version is not going to use the Propeller, why call it "PropGFX"?
Why? Because it has a Propeller at it's core.
If you look on our site at www.propgfx.co.uk/forum/Blah.pl?b-pb/m-1192580952/ you will see the prototype that I have made and what it is capable of.
I said the full version, which is going through a redesign, may not have a Propeller at it's core and if it turns out that it doesn't then we probably won't call it PropGFX
The main reason for this is to have some way of protecting the IP which we have put a lot of work into.
PropGFX Lite was borne out of an idea from JT Cook who asked for a cut down version.
Re the colours, PropGFX Lite can only display as many colours as the Propeller chip can through it's standard tv DAC (about 100).
So yes it is a little limited but we have done the video demos as an example of what the PropGFX Lite can do with regard to data throughput.
It's not perfect by any means but how many micro's do you know of that can do that as easily....
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:47 PM GMT
william chan, it's called the Lite version, because it's the Lite version, IE we removed the AD chip so we could sell a reduced price version.
The Full was originally ( and is at the moment ) a Propeller, but to increase RAM for higher resolution bitmaps, we might use something else in it's place, but it's not been finalised yet, we'll see how the Lite fares first.
If you look at Morpheus' face, you can't see his eyes at all.
There are just 2 "dark caves."
This shows that we need at least 256 colors on the Lite version, not 86 colors.
If we put in the AD chip into the lite, how many colors can we get?
How much does the AD chip cost?
I think movies may convert better to 16 color greyscale - and this will also conserve RAM. Scroll to the bottom of this page www.mr-atari.com/myidehome.htm and watch the middle movie. It's a 2 minute clip of the Matrix played back on an Atari 800XL in 16 bit greyscale with a resolution of 64 horizontal x 216 lines. You mentioned the Propeller only can do 6 color grey scale, but if you mix in a little color - you may be able to get a sepia-toned 16 color image en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepia_tone
I think you are missing the point here, we did the video demo only to show what PropGFX Lite can do with it's limited palette.
It is what it is, limited to 100 ish colours we can't magically make more colours by adding another chip.
The TV Encoder chip takes RGB analogue video and seperate synce and encodes it to either PAL or NTSC video levels.
The whole point in PropGXF is that you can use it to carry out all of your graphic functions and thus conserve that precious RAM in your own applications.
We won't be changing the design to include more colours but of course the Full version will not have the same limitations.....
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:39 PM GMT
I am pretty sure Morpheus is wearing sun glasses, which is why you can't see his eyes. Also there are things that can be done to improve the video by improving the converter program to use dithering, and also maybe have a dithered pixel which is a combination of two colors to get closer to 256 colors. But either way, watching it in motion, you really don't notice it as much anyway. And since that is the lite version(meaning it is stripped down of extras like greater color capabilites), I would say the video player is more of a bonus than anything else. I don't even know where you can find any kind of GPU to use with basically any micro, and this one will even support video playback.
william, like JT says it's more for a GPU for other micro's the video is more of a bonus, as I was showing a bitmap, and thought why not animated bitmap, and it progressed to what it is now. I'm not gonna spend any more time changing it, because otherwise it'd turn into vapourware, because it'd never get finished. as for extra ram, I'll save that for V2 maybe with Prop2, and then it won't need extra external ram.
Besides, we want to now get it out ASAP, so I'll no longer be doing prop demos with it, I'll be finalising it, and doing a couple of non prop demos with it, before release date, ~28th April which is what we're heading for [noparse];)[/noparse]
Do the video files have to be converted to a special format before it can be played?, or it can play mpeg, avi directly?
If we buy the PropGFX Lite will it be plug and play with the hybrid board?
William Chan,
It is very likely that the videos have to be converted to a special bitmap format before being able to be played on the PropGFX Lite or the PropGFX Full. Mpeg and other compressed video formats are very processor intensive for something like a microcontroller. Even older computers (Pentium I/II) needed special cards to play DVDs and things like that. Keep in mind that I am not the developer!
Edit: That question was already asked and the answer is it is a bitmap per frame.
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I am 1010, so be surprised!
Yes, like tpw_man said mpeg and other video compressed formats are very processor intensive, and I don't think this prop would be able to do it, especially having to then convert the finished rgb pixel to a corresponding propeller colour, so the video's have to be converted with my converter program, which will be with the software that comes with the PropGFX Lite.
Edit: forgot to add, yes there's an additional board that plugs into hybrid and you can plug the PropGFX Lite into it, thus not making it a permanent Hybrid only addition, ie, you can still remove it from the board to connect to other stuff, if and when needed. [noparse];)[/noparse] this board is also pin compatible with Hydra, but remember, unlike the Hybrid, which has SD built onto the main board,·with the Hydra you won't get SD·working also, as the card uses the expansion port.
Comments
There also is no provision for VRAM on there as it would require a complete redesign and I think the project would move totally in a different direction.
I have some ideas that I am going to experiment with in the near future for the Full version and this may even include moving away from a Propeller based design.
I don't really want to do that though but there would be benefits especially with respecty to protecting the IP.
Regards,
Coley
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PropGFX Forums - The home of the Hybrid Development System and PropGFX Lite
Any chance you could publish a preliminary spec of the command set?
I'd be interested on the full specs of the prop gfx when it's ready, prob be interested in buying one, being an american, i'd be looking for the NTSC / VGA version of course.
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E3 = Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! My team stats.
Post Edited (RinksCustoms) : 3/16/2008 11:46:21 PM GMT
I'll knock up the full specs hopefully today, when I get some spare time.
As for NTSC mode, it's PAL/NTSC software switchable, funny thing is my Hybrid movie player can play the same movie in either PAL / NTSC [noparse]:)[/noparse] without affecting the sound track [noparse]:)[/noparse] So DLair plays PAL or NTSC too, and my Joypad Hero game.
Baggers.
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
A Living Propeller FAQ - The Propeller Wiki
(Got the Knowledge? Got a Moment? Add something today!)
and finally the video www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_KJVGo3qUg
more to come soon, especially for OBC
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:26 PM GMT
Baggers.
How much would this chip cost?
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It's not a DAC chip it's a TV Encoder and it's simply down to cost and ease of production.
We will be doing PropGFX Full but we are looking into a more radical design and in the end it may not even be a Prop chip at it's core....
I've uploaded another 14 videos in full to youtube they can be accessed here www.youtube.com/user/PropGFX
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:58 PM GMT
From the pictures posted, it seems like insufficient colors is a problem.
Could it be that 256 colors is not enough?
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www.fd.com.my
www.mercedes.com.my
The waitvid command directly does 1,2 and 8 bits of color per pixel. However, the video generators only provide for 16 colors, 5 intensities per color (unless one wants to push the standard a little and get risky with the display), and 6 grey scales.
That's 86 standard safe colors.
If artifacting is used on NTSC, many more can be done. I've got a quick and dirty demo that puts over 400 colors on the screen, but then it's a matter of screen memory to handle that color depth --there isn't enough in the Prop to do any kind of resolution. That's really 9 bits or so. Rounding it down to 8, would give a bit better result than the standard set, but would only be an NTSC thing.
I think max resolution on that would be 160 pixels horizontally too. If there was screen memory, funky display timing would bump that to 320, but would also be a non-spec signal.
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Why? Because it has a Propeller at it's core.
If you look on our site at www.propgfx.co.uk/forum/Blah.pl?b-pb/m-1192580952/ you will see the prototype that I have made and what it is capable of.
I said the full version, which is going through a redesign, may not have a Propeller at it's core and if it turns out that it doesn't then we probably won't call it PropGFX
The main reason for this is to have some way of protecting the IP which we have put a lot of work into.
PropGFX Lite was borne out of an idea from JT Cook who asked for a cut down version.
Re the colours, PropGFX Lite can only display as many colours as the Propeller chip can through it's standard tv DAC (about 100).
So yes it is a little limited but we have done the video demos as an example of what the PropGFX Lite can do with regard to data throughput.
It's not perfect by any means but how many micro's do you know of that can do that as easily....
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:47 PM GMT
The Full was originally ( and is at the moment ) a Propeller, but to increase RAM for higher resolution bitmaps, we might use something else in it's place, but it's not been finalised yet, we'll see how the Lite fares first.
Baggers.
There are just 2 "dark caves."
This shows that we need at least 256 colors on the Lite version, not 86 colors.
If we put in the AD chip into the lite, how many colors can we get?
How much does the AD chip cost?
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www.fd.com.my
www.mercedes.com.my
It is what it is, limited to 100 ish colours we can't magically make more colours by adding another chip.
The TV Encoder chip takes RGB analogue video and seperate synce and encodes it to either PAL or NTSC video levels.
The whole point in PropGXF is that you can use it to carry out all of your graphic functions and thus conserve that precious RAM in your own applications.
We won't be changing the design to include more colours but of course the Full version will not have the same limitations.....
Regards,
Coley
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 4/1/2008 5:38:39 PM GMT
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www.fd.com.my
www.mercedes.com.my
william, like JT says it's more for a GPU for other micro's the video is more of a bonus, as I was showing a bitmap, and thought why not animated bitmap, and it progressed to what it is now. I'm not gonna spend any more time changing it, because otherwise it'd turn into vapourware, because it'd never get finished. as for extra ram, I'll save that for V2 maybe with Prop2, and then it won't need extra external ram.
Besides, we want to now get it out ASAP, so I'll no longer be doing prop demos with it, I'll be finalising it, and doing a couple of non prop demos with it, before release date, ~28th April which is what we're heading for [noparse];)[/noparse]
Baggers.
If we buy the PropGFX Lite will it be plug and play with the hybrid board?
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www.fd.com.my
www.mercedes.com.my
It is very likely that the videos have to be converted to a special bitmap format before being able to be played on the PropGFX Lite or the PropGFX Full. Mpeg and other compressed video formats are very processor intensive for something like a microcontroller. Even older computers (Pentium I/II) needed special cards to play DVDs and things like that. Keep in mind that I am not the developer!
Edit: That question was already asked and the answer is it is a bitmap per frame.
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I am 1010, so be surprised!
Post Edited (tpw_man) : 3/23/2008 2:27:13 PM GMT
Edit: forgot to add, yes there's an additional board that plugs into hybrid and you can plug the PropGFX Lite into it, thus not making it a permanent Hybrid only addition, ie, you can still remove it from the board to connect to other stuff, if and when needed. [noparse];)[/noparse] this board is also pin compatible with Hydra, but remember, unlike the Hybrid, which has SD built onto the main board,·with the Hydra you won't get SD·working also, as the card uses the expansion port.
Post Edited (Baggers) : 3/23/2008 2:42:27 PM GMT