But this point begins when somebody suggest to me, to get all clocks in phase or.. only one clock for the entire project.
Then Chip tolds to me about that too, I think ...must be his task to explain exactly "why".
But in the case, or, for who wants to implement this, I would·try this.... (picture)
So, what do you think about this method ? almost no delay, minimun capacitance, also can be ·driving 5-80Mhz, I think·could be great !!
LVDS chips must be "near" prop XIN input, bus long is·relative important...but PCB design is.
And don't forget to put a bus terminator (100 Ohm resistor) near the last LVDS chip (slave 16) (not included in the graphic)
Ah, Alberto - but that won't make any difference. Inputs of HC circuits are by no means better than the propeller's inputs (5 to 10 pF). HOwever there are some expensive OpAmps, upto 50 MHz and downto 3 pF.
No I think the only way is to use a low Frequency (<10 MHz) and then beef it up by PLL. You will loose the phase of course but not much of frequency stability ( I think...)
RinksCustoms said...
I wonder if you could use a 74***4050Hex buffer to distribute the clock to all the chips evenlly?
Why do you "wonder" and not check it? You do not need 20 Props but just a tiny 200 pF capacitor
And why do you think 50 mA is so much better than 30 mA?
Can you use them in parallel (180 mA ? 0,6 W?)? The spec says 300 to 500 mW are enough ..
I assume Alberto is only using 5 MHz rather than 80 MHz as he said...
desilva, my intentions are not to argue with you, i'm merely just bringing a different point of view. And i "wondered" because i don't have time to setup and measure this on the bench, nor do i have time to sim this in Multisim. I suggested using a hex buffer in the thought that by using the buffers, it would unload some capacitance from the original clock output, but this is probably not the case.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ E3= Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! The average PC while browsing the internet typically uses less than 30% of it's potential, why not donate a portion of the rest for cancer resaerch?
Note that generally most data is given for 5V suply voltage and a single gate; "MSI"-chips at 3.3 V behave worse; but there is a lot of very specific data in the links, also wrt different supply voltage.
Hi all !!
Here is annother picture of the multi propeller board assembled. (17 props total).
One is: Master - Keyboard - Video Out - SD card reader. And 16 slaves.
Also there are·some pictures of the (1/4 of full size)·curtain assembled.
Hope, I could post some software early.... (I don't forget of this)
Nice to see some feedback after reading all the threads on the forum. What are the light modules, LEDs? Whatever, must be one heck of a power supply lighting those panels.
Hi Harley.
Thanks so much.....
The lights are from RGB LEDs,...... in the pictures, there are eight modules of 192 RGB LEDs each, that is about 11.52 A in each LEDs power suplies.
The full curtain will be 32 modules, total estimated power will be about 3.3 Kw in 220 Vca.
We are still assembling more modules to get it finished in some time more.
I will try too to upload some short videos of the screen (playing videos) in YouTube, when, I'll have some time too.
BTX, that's mega impressive. I'm blown-away - well done. (Don't we just LOVE the Propeller )
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Thanks so much !!, for your words, Paul & simonl.
Like I said before ...and although it is not finished...I will post a video on YouTube, unless of some secconds of it.
I forget to comment a detail before.... the actual size of the "screen" in the pictures is about: 10ft tall by 16ft wide.
And YES !! .. it is impossible not to love the propeller !!!
Does somebody still need to ask ....Why the propeller works ????....
deSilva - you bring a good point, i often forget that parallax is international when reading posts, i will be more mindful of that when reading the forums.
BTX - The whole project looks great! America has such·an array similar to your curtain, I recal the SCIence channel running a show on the fremont street expierience, but that one cost in the Millions! And it even needs the help of some 4 or·5 baby supercomputers.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ E3= Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! The average PC while browsing the internet typically uses less than 30% of it's potential, why not donate a portion of the rest for cancer resaerch?
This is the first time I looked at this thread, but wow that is really cool!
I saw the video too and you don't realize how big the screen is until you have someone walk infront of it, then it really puts the size into perspective.
BTX, that's really cool [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Like JT Cook says, it's hard to see how big it really is until someone walks infront of it.
And if that's only 1/4 size of the final thing, that's awsome [noparse]:)[/noparse]
What are you gonna use it for?
BTX, I don't understand how your image can get partial illumination of a pixel. When I look at your example images I can see many areas where only a third of a fifth as big as the brightest squares. Are there multiple leds in each picture element?
Nice project, by the way. How many people are helping you pull this amazing feat off?
Thanks so much RinksCustoms !!!
The vivavision looks very impressive !!... but my modest project is under $100.000. I'm feeling very proud here, because it is the first curtain made in Argentina !!, I'm really very happy because that, and very grateful with, the propeller chip, and with all forum people, who support me and helping me in this. but I prefeer to leave those words until I finished the entire project.......still a lot of work to do.... surely I'll post some special thanks for that forum members at the end.
@Fred ...Some is a colateral effect of the camera, some is "our brain" that try to complete the images, it's only one LED/pixel.
In the assembly process..we are only two, in the design, only me and forum people, (who helps me with doubts). Thanks !!.
@Mike ..That words comming from you, lets me think that I'm in a·right way in electronics, Thanks !!.
BTX, excellent, would have been a waste of such·a great display if it was just a pet project for yourself. if you know what I mean.
How many LED's are in it? ie what's the final pixel resolution going to be?
And yes, lets thank the propeller for being such a wonderful mega versatile chip [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I can't blame you for feeling so happy [noparse]:)[/noparse] well done, it's well deserved.
Hi Baggers.
Correctly (If I understood well). thanks.
There will be 6144 pixels (96x64). The·resolution is under four inches... (9 cm),compared with a comercial curtain... it is a high resolution one.
Be carrefully, never compare it with "LED screens" it is a "LED curtain", LED screens has a resolution over four times higher.
And still, I can't believe...how it shows good images with so high LED distance.. The optimal distance for vision is above 12 meters.
it's amazing what our brains fill in, and how detailed it fills it in too [noparse]:)[/noparse]
that's a great hack, and yeah it does show a great clear image. well done.
I wanted to do something kinda similar, for my windows for christmas last year,
and have a scrolling text message in the screen, but I didn't do it,
because I thought the LED distance would be too large, but I might just have another crack at it this year [noparse]:)[/noparse] and use a prop, now that I have one, and not the pic I had first planned it with.
obviously wouldn't be anywhere near as fantastic as yours, or as awesome, nor will it have 17 props [noparse]:D[/noparse]
I'm not as good on electronics as I am with coding, YET!!!
BTX said...
Hi all, and thanks so much all again !!
Sorry...while I answer some post, I recieved more by the way...so, the order of my post could be confused..
@JT Cook·...Yes, I talk about screen size ...but is easily to compare it with a man. Thanks !!.
@Baggers ..It will be used for theatre shows, music bands in stadiums, etc. Thanks !!.
@Fred ...Some is a colateral effect of the camera, some is "our brain" that try to complete the images, it's only one LED/pixel.
In the assembly process..we are only two, in the design, only me and forum people, (who helps me with doubts). Thanks !!.
@Mike ..That words comming from you, lets me think that I'm in a·right way in electronics, Thanks !!.
Lets thanks the PROPELLER !!!!!!! again.
Sorry if I'm so repetitive...but I'm so happy
Alberto,
I enlarged a bit of your middle example and I think what we are seeing is in the photo are jpg artifacts -- they look very similar to Wikipedia's article on jpg encoding process. I'll bet that actually seeing your curtain is a different experience. How does it show up in an higher resolution picture?
Could you show us a close up of the led arrangement?
How much heat does your curtain throw off? (Thoughts of using it for heating in the winter...)
Fred
BTX said...
Sorry deSilva.
Do you understood that those LVDS chips are HC circuits ??, they are MLVDS chips like DS91C176 from National Semiconductor
I am new to this LVDS concept.· Is there some white-paper or something like that I could read up on this?· I have some projects that could
use long wire connections that might benifit from this. (I have thought of wireless as well but not sure of it's reliability) ·
@Fred.
This is not jpg... it is more simple ....nothing extrange. Believe me.. it is one LED each 9cm. You can try exactly this, processing an image in your computer. (In your posted image.... each pixel has different luminance levels in blue).
I could ask you..... How do you see such resolution in your cellular phone display ??? it has only a few pixeles too.
Absolutely not hot near the curtain....power supplies works almost cold...and all curtain (32 modules)·power is ·about 3.3Kw in 220Vca. giving a great brightness !! so I could say...good efficiency.
@OakGraphics
I read a lot about LVDS, searching technicals doccuments from Fairchild semiconductor and National semiconductor, also searching at google.
I've not nothing special doccument to reccomend to you...
Although if you look for long distances try with RS485...usually LVDS are for high speed. (I saw MLVDS like a close idea to RS485, but fastest)
@All
Early will be more videos in YouTube about it.
@Fred.
This is not jpg... it is more simple ....nothing extrange. Believe me.. it is one LED each 9cm. You can try exactly this, processing an image in your computer. (In your posted image.... each pixel has different luminance levels in blue).
I could ask you..... How do you see such resolution in your cellular phone display ??? it has only a few pixeles too.
Absolutely not hot near the curtain....power supplies works almost cold...and all curtain (32 modules)·power is ·about 3.3Kw in 220Vca. giving a great brightness !! so I could say...good efficiency.
·
Alberto,
I get that it is a led matrix. What I was suggesting was the image posted here revealed as much about its nature (jpg).·Jpg, particularly when downsampled to fit into 53K bytes, often show rectangular artifacts.
Fred.
Your posted picture, has only 10 pixeles wide by 8 pixeles tall...If understand correct your mean... the image shows more pixeles cause the "out of focusing" of it.
So there are only 80 LEDs in it. (I think you are very confused about it)
My slaves controls 384 RGB LEDs. (2 modules) by 16 = 6144 RGB pixeles = 96H*64V.
BTX said...
Fred.
Your posted picture, has only 10 pixeles wide by 8 pixeles tall...If understand correct your mean... the image shows more pixeles cause the "out of focusing" of it.
So there are only 80 LEDs in it. (I think you are very confused about it)
My slaves controls 384 RGB LEDs. (2 modules) by 16 = 6144 RGB pixeles = 96H*64V.
Alberto,
Actually my picture is just a 65x55 pixel fragment of your Curtain2.jpg, resized to 650x550, and saved as a gif to prevent more blurring. I know its just a couple LEDs wide.
So each slave controls 24 TLC5940's?
Fred
Comments
I'm totally agree with you.....
But this point begins when somebody suggest to me, to get all clocks in phase or.. only one clock for the entire project.
Then Chip tolds to me about that too, I think ...must be his task to explain exactly "why".
But in the case, or, for who wants to implement this, I would·try this.... (picture)
So, what do you think about this method ? almost no delay, minimun capacitance, also can be ·driving 5-80Mhz, I think·could be great !!
LVDS chips must be "near" prop XIN input, bus long is·relative important...but PCB design is.
And don't forget to put a bus terminator (100 Ohm resistor) near the last LVDS chip (slave 16) (not included in the graphic)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
No I think the only way is to use a low Frequency (<10 MHz) and then beef it up by PLL. You will loose the phase of course but not much of frequency stability ( I think...)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
E3 = Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! The average PC while browsing the internet typically uses less than 30% of it's potential, why not donate a portion of the rest for cancer resaerch?
Do you understood that those LVDS chips are HC circuits ??, they are MLVDS chips like DS91C176 from National Semiconductor
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
Here is very comprehensive information about HC-Logic www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-313.pdf
Here is a nice comparison to other logic families http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-319.pdf
Note that generally most data is given for 5V suply voltage and a single gate; "MSI"-chips at 3.3 V behave worse; but there is a lot of very specific data in the links, also wrt different supply voltage.
Here is annother picture of the multi propeller board assembled. (17 props total).
One is: Master - Keyboard - Video Out - SD card reader. And 16 slaves.
Also there are·some pictures of the (1/4 of full size)·curtain assembled.
Hope, I could post some software early.... (I don't forget of this)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
Impressive project. Master w/16 slave props. Congratulations.
Nice to see some feedback after reading all the threads on the forum. What are the light modules, LEDs? Whatever, must be one heck of a power supply lighting those panels.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Harley Shanko
h.a.s. designn
Thanks so much.....
The lights are from RGB LEDs,...... in the pictures, there are eight modules of 192 RGB LEDs each, that is about 11.52 A in each LEDs power suplies.
The full curtain will be 32 modules, total estimated power will be about 3.3 Kw in 220 Vca.
We are still assembling more modules to get it finished in some time more.
I will try too to upload some short videos of the screen (playing videos) in YouTube, when, I'll have some time too.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Like I said before ...and although it is not finished...I will post a video on YouTube, unless of some secconds of it.
I forget to comment a detail before.... the actual size of the "screen" in the pictures is about: 10ft tall by 16ft wide.
And YES !! .. it is impossible not to love the propeller !!!
Does somebody still need to ask ....Why the propeller works ????....
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
These are the video samples (sorry, not very nice...but some moving images)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
BTX - The whole project looks great! America has such·an array similar to your curtain, I recal the SCIence channel running a show on the fremont street expierience, but that one cost in the Millions! And it even needs the help of some 4 or·5 baby supercomputers.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
E3 = Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! The average PC while browsing the internet typically uses less than 30% of it's potential, why not donate a portion of the rest for cancer resaerch?
I saw the video too and you don't realize how big the screen is until you have someone walk infront of it, then it really puts the size into perspective.
Like JT Cook says, it's hard to see how big it really is until someone walks infront of it.
And if that's only 1/4 size of the final thing, that's awsome [noparse]:)[/noparse]
What are you gonna use it for?
Well done - that is coming on nicely ...
QuattroRS4
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
'Necessity is the mother of invention'
Nice project, by the way. How many people are helping you pull this amazing feat off?
Fred
The vivavision looks very impressive !!... but my modest project is under $100.000. I'm feeling very proud here, because it is the first curtain made in Argentina !!, I'm really very happy because that, and very grateful with, the propeller chip, and with all forum people, who support me and helping me in this. but I prefeer to leave those words until I finished the entire project.......still a lot of work to do.... surely I'll post some special thanks for that forum members at the end.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
Sorry...while I answer some post, I recieved more by the way...so, the order of my post could be confused..
@JT Cook·...Yes, I talk about screen size ...but is easily to compare it with a man. Thanks !!.
@Baggers ..It will be used for theatre shows, music bands in stadiums, etc. Thanks !!.
@QuattroRS4·... Thanks again !!...
@Fred ...Some is a colateral effect of the camera, some is "our brain" that try to complete the images, it's only one LED/pixel.
In the assembly process..we are only two, in the design, only me and forum people, (who helps me with doubts). Thanks !!.
@Mike ..That words comming from you, lets me think that I'm in a·right way in electronics, Thanks !!.
Lets thanks the PROPELLER !!!!!!! again.
Sorry if I'm so repetitive...but I'm so happy
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
How many LED's are in it? ie what's the final pixel resolution going to be?
And yes, lets thank the propeller for being such a wonderful mega versatile chip [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I can't blame you for feeling so happy [noparse]:)[/noparse] well done, it's well deserved.
Baggers.
Correctly (If I understood well). thanks.
There will be 6144 pixels (96x64). The·resolution is under four inches... (9 cm),compared with a comercial curtain... it is a high resolution one.
Be carrefully, never compare it with "LED screens" it is a "LED curtain", LED screens has a resolution over four times higher.
And still, I can't believe...how it shows good images with so high LED distance..
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
that's a great hack, and yeah it does show a great clear image. well done.
I wanted to do something kinda similar, for my windows for christmas last year,
and have a scrolling text message in the screen, but I didn't do it,
because I thought the LED distance would be too large, but I might just have another crack at it this year [noparse]:)[/noparse] and use a prop, now that I have one, and not the pic I had first planned it with.
obviously wouldn't be anywhere near as fantastic as yours, or as awesome, nor will it have 17 props [noparse]:D[/noparse]
I'm not as good on electronics as I am with coding, YET!!!
I enlarged a bit of your middle example and I think what we are seeing is in the photo are jpg artifacts -- they look very similar to Wikipedia's article on jpg encoding process. I'll bet that actually seeing your curtain is a different experience. How does it show up in an higher resolution picture?
Could you show us a close up of the led arrangement?
How much heat does your curtain throw off? (Thoughts of using it for heating in the winter...)
Fred
use long wire connections that might benifit from this. (I have thought of wireless as well but not sure of it's reliability)
·
@Fred.
This is not jpg... it is more simple ....nothing extrange. Believe me.. it is one LED each 9cm. You can try exactly this, processing an image in your computer. (In your posted image.... each pixel has different luminance levels in blue).
I could ask you..... How do you see such resolution in your cellular phone display ??? it has only a few pixeles too.
Absolutely not hot near the curtain....power supplies works almost cold...and all curtain (32 modules)·power is ·about 3.3Kw in 220Vca. giving a great brightness !! so I could say...good efficiency.
@OakGraphics
I read a lot about LVDS, searching technicals doccuments from Fairchild semiconductor and National semiconductor, also searching at google.
I've not nothing special doccument to reccomend to you...
Although if you look for long distances try with RS485...usually LVDS are for high speed. (I saw MLVDS like a close idea to RS485, but fastest)
@All
Early will be more videos in YouTube about it.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
I get that it is a led matrix. What I was suggesting was the image posted here revealed as much about its nature (jpg).·Jpg, particularly when downsampled to fit into 53K bytes, often show rectangular artifacts.
How many leds do each slave control?
Fred
Your posted picture, has only 10 pixeles wide by 8 pixeles tall...If understand correct your mean... the image shows more pixeles cause the "out of focusing" of it.
So there are only 80 LEDs in it. (I think you are very confused about it)
My slaves controls 384 RGB LEDs. (2 modules) by 16 = 6144 RGB pixeles = 96H*64V.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Regards.
Alberto.
Actually my picture is just a 65x55 pixel fragment of your Curtain2.jpg, resized to 650x550, and saved as a gif to prevent more blurring. I know its just a couple LEDs wide.
So each slave controls 24 TLC5940's?
Fred