follow the threads on 26900. seems shorted cells and frozen
batteries along with well or tap water in batteries make them very
poor candidates.
From what I read, it takes up to a few weeks to get them 'great'
again. but you might have a good chance. Ya got 3 days to design,
make, install and pulse to see if Saturday is spent getting a new
battery or laughing at your success ! Some results seem to be
immeadiate, complete cleaning takes some time.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jbirnsch <jbirnsch@v...>"
<jbirnsch@v...> wrote:
> Don,
>
> I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
frozen
> solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that
I
> can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
>
> Jason
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> >
> > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> >
> > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Once a cell freezes, there is normally a lot of internal mechanical
damage that will prevent it's return to normal function.
Don
"jbirnsch " wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was frozen
> solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
> can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
>
> Jason
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> >
> > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> >
> > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Whats a snowmobile and how do batteries freeze? Never seen either down here
in Texas! <grin>
Original Message
> follow the threads on 26900. seems shorted cells and frozen
> batteries along with well or tap water in batteries make them very
> poor candidates.
>
> From what I read, it takes up to a few weeks to get them 'great'
> again. but you might have a good chance. Ya got 3 days to design,
> make, install and pulse to see if Saturday is spent getting a new
> battery or laughing at your success ! Some results seem to be
> immeadiate, complete cleaning takes some time.
> > I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
> frozen
> > solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that
> I
> > can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
Hello from Gregg C Levine
It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the cold
weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be done
to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one in
that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@w...
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."· Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=47RghLuRT_ygD1fPDokWAEaU25CAXZnCllQieMTOqtOJgbQx4YeGYiZ6-VfV3yK1pY9rlJDd6vDvKMexo4U]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:21 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> Hi Jason,
>
>
> NO! and I'm sorry I had forgotten about this.
>
> Once a cell freezes, there is normally a lot of internal mechanical
> damage that will prevent it's return to normal function.
>
> Don
>
>
> "jbirnsch " wrote:
> >
> > Don,
> >
> > I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
frozen
> > solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
> > can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> > >
> > > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> > >
> > > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > >
A discharged battery will freeze at a higher temperature than one fully
charged. Most folks who live where its really cold either have a garage, a
heated battery wrap or take their battery in the house at night.
It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the cold
weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be done
to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one in
that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
The battery electrolyte is similar to anti-freeze with it's blend of
water and sulfuric acid mix. Different manufacturers use different
blends or ratios and some brands may be more cold weather resistant
than others. Although this may not be true for starter batteries.
They, like the fuel industry may have to be standardized for
government contracts.
A battery will freeze for one of two reasons but often a combination
of both. Each reason has unique preventative measures that can be
taken.
The first is electrolyte stratification where the acid begins to
settle to the bottom of the case in the sediment trap area. This will
happen when a battery sits unused or has not been gassed for long
periods. Stratification is prevented anytime a battery having
reasonably equal cell Specific Gravity (SG) is subjected to a high
enough charging voltage to make the battery gas in each cell. The gas
bubbles, like an air powered aquarium pump will induce convection
currents that keep the acid and water mixed.
The second reason is from reduced SG caused by acid loss from the
formation of lead sulfate crystals. Preventative measures include
keeping the battery well charged and desulfated.
A dandy preventive measure would be a BASIC Stamp pulse charger. A
BASIC Stamp used with a fast turn on time FET will desulfate and keep
the battery fully charged. I cannot address cold weather issues as I
have not done any research in this area. I had merely discovered that
at room temperature a Stamp pulser will desulfate in addition to
recharging a battery.
Many 6A and 10A battery chargers whose output has a large value
capacitance added, provides a good power source for pulse charging.
The ripple need not be a cause for concern. A NFET in series with the
battery and connected to this source can be pulsed by a BASIC Stamp.
Some work would need to be done to establish the pulse width needed,
charge regimen and whether a single battery charger or two in series
would be needed to accomplish this job.
Good area of research for anyone who has a BASIC Stamp and is tired of
dealing with frozen batteries!
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Rodent <daweasel@s...> wrote:
> A discharged battery will freeze at a higher temperature than one
fully
> charged. Most folks who live where its really cold either have a
garage, a
> heated battery wrap or take their battery in the house at night.
>
> It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the
cold
> weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be
done
> to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one
in
> that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts would
clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted iron
log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted pickup)
could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim settings
to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock stop.
ii_awesum wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, I just joined.
>
> I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it was
> loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> manipulate some X-10 appliances.
>
> Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
>
> For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc. with
> graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> required.
>
> Any creative input is most welcome!
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
(can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
wind, etc.
eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
hour and crunch for something 'near'
Have fun
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
would
> clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
>
> A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
iron
> log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
pickup)
> could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
>
> If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
settings
> to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
stop.
>
>
>
>
> ii_awesum wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> >
> > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
was
> > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> >
> > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> >
> > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
with
> > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > required.
> >
> > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes of
calculating fuel efficiencies.
Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
opposed to traveling with the current.
Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
the job.
Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
there. Hope this makes some sense.
The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
adjustments.
I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
vacuum sensor result.
Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
"anode505 " wrote:
>
> Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> wind, etc.
>
> eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> hour and crunch for something 'near'
>
> Have fun
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> would
> > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> >
> > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> iron
> > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> pickup)
> > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> >
> > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> settings
> > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> stop.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ii_awesum wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > >
> > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> was
> > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > >
> > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > >
> > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> with
> > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > required.
> > >
> > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I disagree, Don. Coefficient of drag applies, whether its above or
below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
"Dennis P. O'Leary" wrote:
>
> I disagree, Don. Coefficient of drag applies, whether its above or
> below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
> youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
>
> -- Dennis
>
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=GqSYr4RnzkPYw9pAjMsFR1z8AT1AuAHJtGAAQSbZ-AzoOf46Uea6ldQHnSWkaOn1uozEzIzVaTlL32OFQuY]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> <deleted>
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> <deleted>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I suspect the drag induced by someone racing is substantially more than
the planning speeds of the average powercraft.
"Dennis P. O'Leary" wrote:
>
> I disagree, Don. Coefficient of drag applies, whether its above or
> below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
> youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
>
> -- Dennis
>
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=rFc9nW-HFnsmpKHRPcNUGZ-lxAhOchmV4GU7rTgUAJ053Kstc2BY6oGgoKn-2FxtOIax8MikpszONeTXn6k]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> <deleted>
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> <deleted>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and use
it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes of
> calculating fuel efficiencies.
>
> Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> opposed to traveling with the current.
>
> Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
> resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
> the job.
>
> Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
> go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> there. Hope this makes some sense.
>
> The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
> settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> adjustments.
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
> given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> vacuum sensor result.
>
> Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
>
>
>
> "anode505 " wrote:
> >
> > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> > wind, etc.
> >
> > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> >
> > Have fun
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > would
> > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > >
> > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > iron
> > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > pickup)
> > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > >
> > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > settings
> > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > stop.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > >
> > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> > was
> > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > >
> > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > >
> > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > with
> > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > required.
> > > >
> > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
control settings will be giving different readings all the time
depending on currents.
Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
an otherwise simple project.
Jonathan Peakall wrote:
>
> What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and use
> it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes of
> > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> >
> > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > opposed to traveling with the current.
> >
> > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
> > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
> > the job.
> >
> > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
> > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> >
> > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
> > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > adjustments.
> >
> > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> >
> > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
> > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > vacuum sensor result.
> >
> > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> >
> >
> >
> > "anode505 " wrote:
> > >
> > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> > > wind, etc.
> > >
> > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > >
> > > Have fun
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > would
> > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > >
> > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > iron
> > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > pickup)
> > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > settings
> > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > stop.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> > > was
> > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > >
> > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > with
> > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > required.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Well, you could use the GPS to do the fuel economy indicator, but you are
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better then
I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device
to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity
to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
mileage, and use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained
the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the
purposes of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed
either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately
measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
doubled and it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
enough to do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had
when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement.
How far you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in
getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle
and trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would
think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
readings are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable
by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and
return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story.
You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow
and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors.
I forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro
program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to
just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical
gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
<dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and
trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel
dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time
ago and it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
outgoing text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and
also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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> >
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Wait! If you just want that, then its a lot easier. O2 sensor and
vac sensor could do it.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device
to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity
to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right (hopefully
right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
different.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
> use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
<anode505@y...> wrote:
> Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
(hopefully
> right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> different.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
to
> > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
I don't think RPM would be valid for fuel economy calculations.
The load changes when you go from displacement to planing propulsion.
I'm sure there is this large fuzzy area as you come up to plane.
"christopher41877 " wrote:
>
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
fuel use is not linear with motor RPM.
motor RPM is linear to propeller speed, but not thrust.
thurst is not linear to 'apparent' speed
and apparent speed is measured in knots or something, but not actual
miles or knots moved in respect to a land point.
just like an air plane, the medium on which one is riding, air or
water may be moving with or against you. with you and economy soars,
like coasting downhill in a car.
speeding along at 10 knots fighting a 5 knot current will put you 5
knots from the start. using 5 gph the distance is roughly 1 gallon
per knot.
upping to 15 knots and 10 gph (assuming non linear fuel consumption
from increased drag) will put you 10 knots from the start.
20 knots and 20gph will put you there at the expense of more fuel
used.
In other words, this ain't a simple project like remembering when to
see if it's time to change the filter.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better
then
> I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
> use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
>
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a
device
> to
> > enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
> >
> > This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
> motion.
> >
> > If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
> economical
> > control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> > depending on currents.
> >
> > Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more
complexity
> to
> > an otherwise simple project.
> >
> > Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> > >
> > > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
> over the
> > > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
> mileage, and use
> > > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained
> the same.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> > >
> > > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the
> purposes of
> > > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > > >
> > > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
> inconsequential.
> > > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
> current as
> > > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > > >
> > > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be
needed
> either.
> > > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could
accurately
> measure
> > > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
> doubled and it
> > > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
> enough to do
> > > > the job.
> > > >
> > > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be
had
> when
> > > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement.
> How far you
> > > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in
> getting
> > > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > > >
> > > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
> simply be a
> > > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting
throttle
> and trim
> > > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
> imaginary
> > > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
> merit of
> > > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
> control
> > > > adjustments.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
> would have
> > > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
> expended in
> > > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you
are
> fighting
> > > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would
> think
> > > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
> efficiencies. Fuel
> > > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
> riding it
> > > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > > >
> > > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
> proper
> > > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
> readings are
> > > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
> doubling of
> > > > vacuum sensor result.
> > > >
> > > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be
dividable
> by a
> > > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could*
be
> > > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure
and
> return
> > > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
> traveled.
> > > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
> current (be
> > > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet
story.
> You'd
> > > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather
slow
> and
> > > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close.
Different
> > > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption,
trim,
> current,
> > > > > wind, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey
sensors.
> I forgot
> > > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro
> program
> > > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier
to
> just
> > > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical
> gal per
> > > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > > >
> > > > > Have fun
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
> <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
> enthusiasts
> > > > > would
> > > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
> converted
> > > > > iron
> > > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
> mounted
> > > > > pickup)
> > > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
> display.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle
and
> trim
> > > > > settings
> > > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next
fuel
> dock
> > > > > stop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time
> ago and it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
> outgoing text-
> > > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and
> also
> > > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine
applications?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
> sensors,
> > > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
> sensors etc.
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
> alarms as
> > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text
in
> the
> > > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
the
> Subject
> > > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and
> > > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Boats and airplanes share a very similar thrust to drag as both have
huge drag components in the speed formula.
cars are the odd ones.
planes do have potential energy as altitude, but the power to speed
is a much steeper curve than a passenger car at highway speed.
Increase in speed by about 20% requires something like a 50% increase
in horspower for boats and cars.
If I recall correctly, a 3,500 pound Caddilac Sedan deVille at 45 mph
needs 11 hp to maintain speed on a flat windless road.
your dingy will use a 20 hp motor to get 5 knots across a calm lake.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
You are correct, it's actually kph not kpg. When trying to build
something, I try and do the easiest and most cost efficient first and
if I can't do it that way then go more expensive and harder.
Monitoring RPM's will get you close, but not exact.....is anything
ever exact anyway???
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...>"
<davemucha@j...> wrote:
> this goes to the point of this concept.
>
> fuel use is not linear with motor RPM.
> motor RPM is linear to propeller speed, but not thrust.
> thurst is not linear to 'apparent' speed
> and apparent speed is measured in knots or something, but not
actual
> miles or knots moved in respect to a land point.
>
> just like an air plane, the medium on which one is riding, air or
> water may be moving with or against you. with you and economy
soars,
> like coasting downhill in a car.
>
> speeding along at 10 knots fighting a 5 knot current will put you 5
> knots from the start. using 5 gph the distance is roughly 1 gallon
> per knot.
>
> upping to 15 knots and 10 gph (assuming non linear fuel consumption
> from increased drag) will put you 10 knots from the start.
>
> 20 knots and 20gph will put you there at the expense of more fuel
> used.
>
> In other words, this ain't a simple project like remembering when
to
> see if it's time to change the filter.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better
> then
> > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
to
> > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
<dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a
> device
> > to
> > > enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
> > >
> > > This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
> > motion.
> > >
> > > If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
> > economical
> > > control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> > > depending on currents.
> > >
> > > Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more
> complexity
> > to
> > > an otherwise simple project.
> > >
> > > Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
> > over the
> > > > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
> > mileage, and use
> > > > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions
remained
> > the same.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
Original Message
> > > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> > > >
> > > > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for
the
> > purposes of
> > > > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
> > inconsequential.
> > > > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
> > current as
> > > > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be
> needed
> > either.
> > > > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could
> accurately
> > measure
> > > > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
> > doubled and it
> > > > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
> > enough to do
> > > > > the job.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be
> had
> > when
> > > > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or
movement.
> > How far you
> > > > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used
in
> > getting
> > > > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
> > simply be a
> > > > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting
> throttle
> > and trim
> > > > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
> > imaginary
> > > > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
> > merit of
> > > > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
> > control
> > > > > adjustments.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
> > would have
> > > > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
> > expended in
> > > > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you
> are
> > fighting
> > > > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I
would
> > think
> > > > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
> > efficiencies. Fuel
> > > > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
> > riding it
> > > > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > > > >
> > > > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
> > proper
> > > > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
> > readings are
> > > > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
> > doubling of
> > > > > vacuum sensor result.
> > > > >
> > > > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be
> dividable
> > by a
> > > > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it
*could*
> be
> > > > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure
> and
> > return
> > > > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the
distance
> > traveled.
> > > > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
> > current (be
> > > > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet
> story.
> > You'd
> > > > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather
> slow
> > and
> > > > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close.
> Different
> > > > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption,
> trim,
> > current,
> > > > > > wind, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey
> sensors.
> > I forgot
> > > > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic
Pro
> > program
> > > > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use.
Esier
> to
> > just
> > > > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and
typical
> > gal per
> > > > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have fun
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
> > <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
> > enthusiasts
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon
indicator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
> > converted
> > > > > > iron
> > > > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
> > mounted
> > > > > > pickup)
> > > > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
> > display.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle
> and
> > trim
> > > > > > settings
> > > > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next
> fuel
> > dock
> > > > > > stop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some
time
> > ago and it
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
> > outgoing text-
> > > > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface,
and
> > also
> > > > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine
> applications?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
> > sensors,
> > > > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
> > sensors etc.
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
> > alarms as
> > > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed.
Text
> in
> > the
> > > > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
> the
> > Subject
> > > > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
the
> > Subject and
> > > > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
FWIW, Benzes have a dial next to the tach that gives approximate fuel
efficiency (MPG in US). It's not clear what variables are used, and the
reading is generally ignored during daily driving.
Boats and airplanes share a very similar thrust to drag as both have
huge drag components in the speed formula.
cars are the odd ones.
planes do have potential energy as altitude, but the power to speed
is a much steeper curve than a passenger car at highway speed.
Increase in speed by about 20% requires something like a 50% increase
in horspower for boats and cars.
If I recall correctly, a 3,500 pound Caddilac Sedan deVille at 45 mph
needs 11 hp to maintain speed on a flat windless road.
your dingy will use a 20 hp motor to get 5 knots across a calm lake.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to: basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
Still varries enough. Try a nice chop going into the tide with bad
trim.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
(I haven't followed this thread completely, so apologies if I'm repeating
what was already mentioned).
Application is not relevant - load is not the same thing as RPM.
Load is load, no matter what you're propelling; just that in cars cruising
typically puts less load on the engine than in a boat - it doesn't mean
you're measuring something different.
Fuel usage is a function of load and rpm (and engine volumetric efficiency
depending on how you're measuring load). To use just one will give you a
measure of that quantity only, and not the desired mpg or kpg, etc.
Don't forget you can be going down a steep hill at 7000rpm in 2nd gear and
using less fuel than while idling.
Electronic content: If you know the flow rating of the injector, measuring
the time it is open will give you an estimate of instantaneous fuel usage.
Tapping the signal at the input of the injector drivers inside the ECU
gives you a cleaner signal to measure than at the injectors themselves.
Mos.
--
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, anode505 <anode505@y...> wrote:
> Still varries enough. Try a nice chop going into the tide with bad
> trim.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> > load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
> >
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> > <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> > (hopefully
> > > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > > different.
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
> <CHRIS@R...>"
> > > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> > to
> > > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
All the fuel consumption gauges I've seen are based on relative values.
There is no way to accurately track distance vs. fuel consumption over time
because of the number of variables involved (slope, drag, engine efficiency,
yadda yadda. I really see two parts on most systems.
Part one is the snap shot -"how much fuel am I using right this instant".
Part two is the prediction portion which averages total consumption vs.
total distance. The further you go the better the average. So the GPS vs.
fuel consumption. Not an exact science since future conditions may change
(good or bad). Just a relative indicator based on past performance of what
you might expect. If someone is trying use this information to squeeze the
last gallon out before landing, docking or finding a gas station, I don't
want to ride with them.
As with all design based project "What is it your really trying to solve or
find out"
Well, you could use the GPS to do the fuel economy indicator, but you are
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
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and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
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>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
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> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
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>
>
>
>
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to: basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Mos <mos@s...> wrote:
> (I haven't followed this thread completely, so apologies if I'm
repeating
> what was already mentioned).
>
> Application is not relevant - load is not the same thing as RPM.
> Load is load, no matter what you're propelling; just that in cars
cruising
> typically puts less load on the engine than in a boat - it doesn't
mean
> you're measuring something different.
>
> Fuel usage is a function of load and rpm (and engine volumetric
efficiency
> depending on how you're measuring load). To use just one will give
you a
> measure of that quantity only, and not the desired mpg or kpg, etc.
>
> Don't forget you can be going down a steep hill at 7000rpm in 2nd
gear and
> using less fuel than while idling.
>
> Electronic content: If you know the flow rating of the injector,
measuring
> the time it is open will give you an estimate of instantaneous fuel
usage.
> Tapping the signal at the input of the injector drivers inside the
ECU
> gives you a cleaner signal to measure than at the injectors
themselves.
>
> Mos.
>
> --
> 84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.
>
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, anode505 <anode505@y...> wrote:
>
> > Still varries enough. Try a nice chop going into the tide with
bad
> > trim.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than
engine
> > > load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> > > <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > > > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > > > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it
allows
> > > > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> > > (hopefully
> > > > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low
RPM,
> > > > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > > > different.
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
> > <CHRIS@R...>"
> > > > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you
want
> > > to
> > > > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
At 05:37 AM 12/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Sorry if a posting upsets you!
>
>My advice would be to not read them. After all you can choose to ignore
>if you would like. I often only read about topics that I have an
>interest in.
I would like to thank Don for blowing a very INTERESTING topic. I only
read the list messages about once a month, that way, the question, and
usually the answer is all ready by the time I read them.
I was very interested in where that thread was going, until no less than 25
messages in a row were your bickering about your pulses. Somewhere in
those 50 posts was some good information (not about the pulser), but you
managed to bury it in all of your ramblings.
If you really feel like you must bore us to death, CHANGE THE SUBJECT to
something that reflects what you are talking about. That way I CAN SKIP
topics that don't interest me. Sorry to make everyone look at this, but I
just couldn't stand it. Oh, and Don, bicker back all you want, I'll read
your reply somewhere around January 18th, 2003!
I'll try to remember to change the subject, AS YOU
HAVE, when responding to folks that cannot disagree
without being insulting or editorializing.
I suspect that you are not a bit sorry to subject
folks to your whiney self serving posting. Glad it
made you feel better.
If reading is such a chore for you, perhaps you could
switch to the digest and invest in a speed reading
course. Of course that may not help in overcoming the
big word (multi-sylable) speed bumps.
--- John Walton <john@l...> wrote:
> At 05:37 AM 12/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Sorry if a posting upsets you!
> >
> >My advice would be to not read them. After all you
> can choose to ignore
> >if you would like. I often only read about topics
> that I have an
> >interest in.
>
>
> I would like to thank Don for blowing a very
> INTERESTING topic. I only
> read the list messages about once a month, that way,
> the question, and
> usually the answer is all ready by the time I read
> them.
>
> I was very interested in where that thread was
> going, until no less than 25
> messages in a row were your bickering about your
> pulses. Somewhere in
> those 50 posts was some good information (not about
> the pulser), but you
> managed to bury it in all of your ramblings.
>
> If you really feel like you must bore us to death,
> CHANGE THE SUBJECT to
> something that reflects what you are talking about.
> That way I CAN SKIP
> topics that don't interest me. Sorry to make
> everyone look at this, but I
> just couldn't stand it. Oh, and Don, bicker back
> all you want, I'll read
> your reply somewhere around January 18th, 2003!
>
> -John
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed.
> Text in the Subject and Body of the message will be
> ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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Comments
follow the threads on 26900. seems shorted cells and frozen
batteries along with well or tap water in batteries make them very
poor candidates.
From what I read, it takes up to a few weeks to get them 'great'
again. but you might have a good chance. Ya got 3 days to design,
make, install and pulse to see if Saturday is spent getting a new
battery or laughing at your success ! Some results seem to be
immeadiate, complete cleaning takes some time.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "jbirnsch <jbirnsch@v...>"
<jbirnsch@v...> wrote:
> Don,
>
> I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
frozen
> solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that
I
> can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
>
> Jason
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> >
> > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> >
> > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
NO! and I'm sorry I had forgotten about this.
Once a cell freezes, there is normally a lot of internal mechanical
damage that will prevent it's return to normal function.
Don
"jbirnsch " wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was frozen
> solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
> can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
>
> Jason
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> >
> > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> >
> > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > >
> > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >
> > > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
in Texas! <grin>
Original Message
> follow the threads on 26900. seems shorted cells and frozen
> batteries along with well or tap water in batteries make them very
> poor candidates.
>
> From what I read, it takes up to a few weeks to get them 'great'
> again. but you might have a good chance. Ya got 3 days to design,
> make, install and pulse to see if Saturday is spent getting a new
> battery or laughing at your success ! Some results seem to be
> immeadiate, complete cleaning takes some time.
> > I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
> frozen
> > solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that
> I
> > can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the cold
weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be done
to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one in
that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon@w...
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."· Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=47RghLuRT_ygD1fPDokWAEaU25CAXZnCllQieMTOqtOJgbQx4YeGYiZ6-VfV3yK1pY9rlJDd6vDvKMexo4U]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:21 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> Hi Jason,
>
>
> NO! and I'm sorry I had forgotten about this.
>
> Once a cell freezes, there is normally a lot of internal mechanical
> damage that will prevent it's return to normal function.
>
> Don
>
>
> "jbirnsch " wrote:
> >
> > Don,
> >
> > I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was
frozen
> > solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
> > can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
> >
> > Jason
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
> > >
> > > If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
> > >
> > > smartdim@a... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > > >
charged. Most folks who live where its really cold either have a garage, a
heated battery wrap or take their battery in the house at night.
It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the cold
weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be done
to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one in
that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
water and sulfuric acid mix. Different manufacturers use different
blends or ratios and some brands may be more cold weather resistant
than others. Although this may not be true for starter batteries.
They, like the fuel industry may have to be standardized for
government contracts.
A battery will freeze for one of two reasons but often a combination
of both. Each reason has unique preventative measures that can be
taken.
The first is electrolyte stratification where the acid begins to
settle to the bottom of the case in the sediment trap area. This will
happen when a battery sits unused or has not been gassed for long
periods. Stratification is prevented anytime a battery having
reasonably equal cell Specific Gravity (SG) is subjected to a high
enough charging voltage to make the battery gas in each cell. The gas
bubbles, like an air powered aquarium pump will induce convection
currents that keep the acid and water mixed.
The second reason is from reduced SG caused by acid loss from the
formation of lead sulfate crystals. Preventative measures include
keeping the battery well charged and desulfated.
A dandy preventive measure would be a BASIC Stamp pulse charger. A
BASIC Stamp used with a fast turn on time FET will desulfate and keep
the battery fully charged. I cannot address cold weather issues as I
have not done any research in this area. I had merely discovered that
at room temperature a Stamp pulser will desulfate in addition to
recharging a battery.
Many 6A and 10A battery chargers whose output has a large value
capacitance added, provides a good power source for pulse charging.
The ripple need not be a cause for concern. A NFET in series with the
battery and connected to this source can be pulsed by a BASIC Stamp.
Some work would need to be done to establish the pulse width needed,
charge regimen and whether a single battery charger or two in series
would be needed to accomplish this job.
Good area of research for anyone who has a BASIC Stamp and is tired of
dealing with frozen batteries!
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Rodent <daweasel@s...> wrote:
> A discharged battery will freeze at a higher temperature than one
fully
> charged. Most folks who live where its really cold either have a
garage, a
> heated battery wrap or take their battery in the house at night.
>
> It's obvious what caused his snowmobile's battery to freeze, the
cold
> weather, or I should say, extremely cold weather. But what can be
done
> to prevent it? And I admit, that while I've never actually seen one
in
> that shape, I remember hearing about it, someplace...
Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts would
clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted iron
log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted pickup)
could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim settings
to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock stop.
ii_awesum wrote:
>
> Hi everyone, I just joined.
>
> I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it was
> loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> manipulate some X-10 appliances.
>
> Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
>
> For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc. with
> graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> required.
>
> Any creative input is most welcome!
> Thanks,
> Mike
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
(can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
wind, etc.
eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
hour and crunch for something 'near'
Have fun
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
> Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
would
> clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
>
> A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
iron
> log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
pickup)
> could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
>
> If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
settings
> to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
stop.
>
>
>
>
> ii_awesum wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> >
> > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
was
> > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> >
> > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> >
> > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
with
> > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > required.
> >
> > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > Thanks,
> > Mike
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
calculating fuel efficiencies.
Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
opposed to traveling with the current.
Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
the job.
Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
there. Hope this makes some sense.
The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
adjustments.
I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
vacuum sensor result.
Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
"anode505 " wrote:
>
> Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> wind, etc.
>
> eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> hour and crunch for something 'near'
>
> Have fun
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> would
> > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> >
> > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> iron
> > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> pickup)
> > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> >
> > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> settings
> > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> stop.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ii_awesum wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > >
> > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> was
> > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > >
> > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > >
> > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> with
> > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > required.
> > >
> > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
-- Dennis
Original Message
From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=QX1MCDPbFaq0CtSXvzZkzFVByMNf-1_BvPrVQsh_CEI09cyL65QaxBjb7M_rmLsyAeZAUqSH_Bmj86E]dondenhardt@y...[/url
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:42 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
<deleted>
I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
<deleted>
"Dennis P. O'Leary" wrote:
>
> I disagree, Don. Coefficient of drag applies, whether its above or
> below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
> youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
>
> -- Dennis
>
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=GqSYr4RnzkPYw9pAjMsFR1z8AT1AuAHJtGAAQSbZ-AzoOf46Uea6ldQHnSWkaOn1uozEzIzVaTlL32OFQuY]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> <deleted>
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> <deleted>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
the planning speeds of the average powercraft.
"Dennis P. O'Leary" wrote:
>
> I disagree, Don. Coefficient of drag applies, whether its above or
> below the water line. At least that was true when I raced boats in my
> youth, and I doubt that the laws of physics have changed since then.
>
> -- Dennis
>
>
Original Message
> From: Don Denhardt [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=rFc9nW-HFnsmpKHRPcNUGZ-lxAhOchmV4GU7rTgUAJ053Kstc2BY6oGgoKn-2FxtOIax8MikpszONeTXn6k]dondenhardt@y...[/url
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:42 PM
> To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> <deleted>
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> <deleted>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and use
it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes of
> calculating fuel efficiencies.
>
> Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> opposed to traveling with the current.
>
> Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
> resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
> the job.
>
> Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
> go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> there. Hope this makes some sense.
>
> The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
> settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> adjustments.
>
> I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
> given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> vacuum sensor result.
>
> Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
>
>
>
> "anode505 " wrote:
> >
> > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> > wind, etc.
> >
> > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> >
> > Have fun
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Mike,
> > >
> > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > would
> > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > >
> > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > iron
> > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > pickup)
> > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > >
> > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > settings
> > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > stop.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > >
> > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> > was
> > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > >
> > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > >
> > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > with
> > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > required.
> > > >
> > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
control settings will be giving different readings all the time
depending on currents.
Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
an otherwise simple project.
Jonathan Peakall wrote:
>
> What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and use
> it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
Original Message
> From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
>
> > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes of
> > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> >
> > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > opposed to traveling with the current.
> >
> > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and it
> > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to do
> > the job.
> >
> > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far you
> > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> >
> > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and trim
> > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > adjustments.
> >
> > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are fighting
> > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> >
> > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings are
> > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > vacuum sensor result.
> >
> > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> >
> >
> >
> > "anode505 " wrote:
> > >
> > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance traveled.
> > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim, current,
> > > wind, etc.
> > >
> > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I forgot
> > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > >
> > > Have fun
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hi Mike,
> > > >
> > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > would
> > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > >
> > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > iron
> > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > pickup)
> > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > >
> > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > settings
> > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > stop.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and it
> > > was
> > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing text-
> > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > >
> > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > >
> > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > with
> > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > required.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better then
I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device
to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity
to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
mileage, and use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained
the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the
purposes of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed
either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately
measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
doubled and it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
enough to do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had
when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement.
How far you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in
getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle
and trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would
think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
readings are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable
by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and
return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story.
You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow
and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors.
I forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro
program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to
just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical
gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
<dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and
trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel
dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time
ago and it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
outgoing text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and
also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in
the
> > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject
> > and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and
> > Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
vac sensor could do it.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device
to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity
to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right (hopefully
right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
different.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
> use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
<anode505@y...> wrote:
> Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
(hopefully
> right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> different.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
to
> > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
The load changes when you go from displacement to planing propulsion.
I'm sure there is this large fuzzy area as you come up to plane.
"christopher41877 " wrote:
>
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
fuel use is not linear with motor RPM.
motor RPM is linear to propeller speed, but not thrust.
thurst is not linear to 'apparent' speed
and apparent speed is measured in knots or something, but not actual
miles or knots moved in respect to a land point.
just like an air plane, the medium on which one is riding, air or
water may be moving with or against you. with you and economy soars,
like coasting downhill in a car.
speeding along at 10 knots fighting a 5 knot current will put you 5
knots from the start. using 5 gph the distance is roughly 1 gallon
per knot.
upping to 15 knots and 10 gph (assuming non linear fuel consumption
from increased drag) will put you 10 knots from the start.
20 knots and 20gph will put you there at the expense of more fuel
used.
In other words, this ain't a simple project like remembering when to
see if it's time to change the filter.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better
then
> I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want to
> use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
>
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a
device
> to
> > enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
> >
> > This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
> motion.
> >
> > If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
> economical
> > control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> > depending on currents.
> >
> > Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more
complexity
> to
> > an otherwise simple project.
> >
> > Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> > >
> > > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
> over the
> > > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
> mileage, and use
> > > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained
> the same.
> > >
> > > Jonathan
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> > >
> > > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the
> purposes of
> > > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > > >
> > > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
> inconsequential.
> > > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
> current as
> > > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > > >
> > > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be
needed
> either.
> > > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could
accurately
> measure
> > > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
> doubled and it
> > > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
> enough to do
> > > > the job.
> > > >
> > > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be
had
> when
> > > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement.
> How far you
> > > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in
> getting
> > > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > > >
> > > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
> simply be a
> > > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting
throttle
> and trim
> > > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
> imaginary
> > > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
> merit of
> > > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
> control
> > > > adjustments.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
> would have
> > > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
> expended in
> > > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you
are
> fighting
> > > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would
> think
> > > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
> efficiencies. Fuel
> > > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
> riding it
> > > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > > >
> > > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
> proper
> > > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
> readings are
> > > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
> doubling of
> > > > vacuum sensor result.
> > > >
> > > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be
dividable
> by a
> > > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could*
be
> > > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure
and
> return
> > > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
> traveled.
> > > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
> current (be
> > > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet
story.
> You'd
> > > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather
slow
> and
> > > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close.
Different
> > > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption,
trim,
> current,
> > > > > wind, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey
sensors.
> I forgot
> > > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro
> program
> > > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier
to
> just
> > > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical
> gal per
> > > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > > >
> > > > > Have fun
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
> <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
> enthusiasts
> > > > > would
> > > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
> converted
> > > > > iron
> > > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
> mounted
> > > > > pickup)
> > > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
> display.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle
and
> trim
> > > > > settings
> > > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next
fuel
> dock
> > > > > stop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time
> ago and it
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
> outgoing text-
> > > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and
> also
> > > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine
applications?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
> sensors,
> > > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
> sensors etc.
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
> alarms as
> > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text
in
> the
> > > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > > >
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huge drag components in the speed formula.
cars are the odd ones.
planes do have potential energy as altitude, but the power to speed
is a much steeper curve than a passenger car at highway speed.
Increase in speed by about 20% requires something like a 50% increase
in horspower for boats and cars.
If I recall correctly, a 3,500 pound Caddilac Sedan deVille at 45 mph
needs 11 hp to maintain speed on a flat windless road.
your dingy will use a 20 hp motor to get 5 knots across a calm lake.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
You are correct, it's actually kph not kpg. When trying to build
something, I try and do the easiest and most cost efficient first and
if I can't do it that way then go more expensive and harder.
Monitoring RPM's will get you close, but not exact.....is anything
ever exact anyway???
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...>"
<davemucha@j...> wrote:
> this goes to the point of this concept.
>
> fuel use is not linear with motor RPM.
> motor RPM is linear to propeller speed, but not thrust.
> thurst is not linear to 'apparent' speed
> and apparent speed is measured in knots or something, but not
actual
> miles or knots moved in respect to a land point.
>
> just like an air plane, the medium on which one is riding, air or
> water may be moving with or against you. with you and economy
soars,
> like coasting downhill in a car.
>
> speeding along at 10 knots fighting a 5 knot current will put you 5
> knots from the start. using 5 gph the distance is roughly 1 gallon
> per knot.
>
> upping to 15 knots and 10 gph (assuming non linear fuel consumption
> from increased drag) will put you 10 knots from the start.
>
> 20 knots and 20gph will put you there at the expense of more fuel
> used.
>
> In other words, this ain't a simple project like remembering when
to
> see if it's time to change the filter.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > If you measure the RPM at a scan rate of at least 2 HZ or better
> then
> > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
to
> > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
<dondenhardt@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a
> device
> > to
> > > enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
> > >
> > > This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative
> > motion.
> > >
> > > If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most
> > economical
> > > control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> > > depending on currents.
> > >
> > > Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more
> complexity
> > to
> > > an otherwise simple project.
> > >
> > > Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual
> > over the
> > > > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current*
> > mileage, and use
> > > > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions
remained
> > the same.
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan
> > > >
> > > >
Original Message
> > > > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> > > >
> > > > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for
the
> > purposes of
> > > > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is
> > inconsequential.
> > > > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a
> > current as
> > > > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > > > >
> > > > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be
> needed
> > either.
> > > > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could
> accurately
> > measure
> > > > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate
> > doubled and it
> > > > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be
> > enough to do
> > > > > the job.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be
> had
> > when
> > > > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or
movement.
> > How far you
> > > > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used
in
> > getting
> > > > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > > > >
> > > > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could
> > simply be a
> > > > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting
> throttle
> > and trim
> > > > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an
> > imaginary
> > > > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of
> > merit of
> > > > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with
> > control
> > > > > adjustments.
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane
> > would have
> > > > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is
> > expended in
> > > > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you
> are
> > fighting
> > > > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I
would
> > think
> > > > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel
> > efficiencies. Fuel
> > > > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are
> > riding it
> > > > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > > > >
> > > > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure
> > proper
> > > > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever
> > readings are
> > > > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a
> > doubling of
> > > > > vacuum sensor result.
> > > > >
> > > > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be
> dividable
> > by a
> > > > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it
*could*
> be
> > > > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure
> and
> > return
> > > > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the
distance
> > traveled.
> > > > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the
> > current (be
> > > > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet
> story.
> > You'd
> > > > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather
> slow
> > and
> > > > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close.
> Different
> > > > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption,
> trim,
> > current,
> > > > > > wind, etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey
> sensors.
> > I forgot
> > > > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic
Pro
> > program
> > > > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use.
Esier
> to
> > just
> > > > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and
typical
> > gal per
> > > > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have fun
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt
> > <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat
> > enthusiasts
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon
indicator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and
> > converted
> > > > > > iron
> > > > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom
> > mounted
> > > > > > pickup)
> > > > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED
> > display.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle
> and
> > trim
> > > > > > settings
> > > > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next
> fuel
> > dock
> > > > > > stop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some
time
> > ago and it
> > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with
> > outgoing text-
> > > > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface,
and
> > also
> > > > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine
> applications?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat
> > sensors,
> > > > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level
> > sensors etc.
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio
> > alarms as
> > > > > > > > required.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > > > > > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > from the same email address that you subscribed.
Text
> in
> > the
> > > > > > Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > > > > > > >
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efficiency (MPG in US). It's not clear what variables are used, and the
reading is generally ignored during daily driving.
Dennis
Original Message
From: Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...> [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=qzyCZnyO7MVGGI70xTXcc3snzel3n4tS_jV7H-4Y3OHn6W-OU8JW6EVdfai3VP8SbkekfrjD6-drVPo]davemucha@j...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:07 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
Boats and airplanes share a very similar thrust to drag as both have
huge drag components in the speed formula.
cars are the odd ones.
planes do have potential energy as altitude, but the power to speed
is a much steeper curve than a passenger car at highway speed.
Increase in speed by about 20% requires something like a 50% increase
in horspower for boats and cars.
If I recall correctly, a 3,500 pound Caddilac Sedan deVille at 45 mph
needs 11 hp to maintain speed on a flat windless road.
your dingy will use a 20 hp motor to get 5 knots across a calm lake.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
trim.
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
<CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
>
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> (hopefully
> > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > different.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> to
> > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
what was already mentioned).
Application is not relevant - load is not the same thing as RPM.
Load is load, no matter what you're propelling; just that in cars cruising
typically puts less load on the engine than in a boat - it doesn't mean
you're measuring something different.
Fuel usage is a function of load and rpm (and engine volumetric efficiency
depending on how you're measuring load). To use just one will give you a
measure of that quantity only, and not the desired mpg or kpg, etc.
Don't forget you can be going down a steep hill at 7000rpm in 2nd gear and
using less fuel than while idling.
Electronic content: If you know the flow rating of the injector, measuring
the time it is open will give you an estimate of instantaneous fuel usage.
Tapping the signal at the input of the injector drivers inside the ECU
gives you a cleaner signal to measure than at the injectors themselves.
Mos.
--
84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.
On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, anode505 <anode505@y...> wrote:
> Still varries enough. Try a nice chop going into the tide with bad
> trim.
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877 <CHRIS@R...>"
> <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than engine
> > load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
> >
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> > <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it allows
> > > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> > (hopefully
> > > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low RPM,
> > > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > > different.
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
> <CHRIS@R...>"
> > > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you want
> > to
> > > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
There is no way to accurately track distance vs. fuel consumption over time
because of the number of variables involved (slope, drag, engine efficiency,
yadda yadda. I really see two parts on most systems.
Part one is the snap shot -"how much fuel am I using right this instant".
Part two is the prediction portion which averages total consumption vs.
total distance. The further you go the better the average. So the GPS vs.
fuel consumption. Not an exact science since future conditions may change
(good or bad). Just a relative indicator based on past performance of what
you might expect. If someone is trying use this information to squeeze the
last gallon out before landing, docking or finding a gas station, I don't
want to ride with them.
As with all design based project "What is it your really trying to solve or
find out"
Original Message
From: Jonathan Peakall [noparse]/noparse]mailto:[url=http://forums.parallaxinc.com/group/basicstamps/post?postID=y6G6F6aSyPfgSGf98CJt7-19H_Aigzx9HyCaieOSbn9Bqxc8aal7igbqOdBf83ztnD9kCtf3dRhqvd4]jpeakall@m...[/url
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:51 PM
To: basicstamps@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
Well, you could use the GPS to do the fuel economy indicator, but you are
right that it adds a large degree of complexity. It would be cool though,
and as most boats have a GPS these days, if you went through the hassle of
figuring it all out (a project I have on the back burner, I have a Motorola
Oncore unit that I plan to mess with one of these days) it could be useful
for a lot of stuff.
Any way you do it, the operator is always going to be required to make the
"final" calculation.
Jonathan
Original Message
From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> You could. It was just that my initial suggestion was for a device to
> enable the operator to set his controls for best fuel economy.
>
> This would be best done measuring fuel consumption vs. relative motion.
>
> If you measure fuel consumption vs. true distance the most economical
> control settings will be giving different readings all the time
> depending on currents.
>
> Also interfacing with a GPS would seem to add a lot more complexity to
> an otherwise simple project.
>
> Jonathan Peakall wrote:
> >
> > What about GPS interface? Then at least you could get actual over the
> > bottom distance measurements, and figure out your *current* mileage, and
use
> > it to predict fuel consumptions as long as conditions remained the same.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
Original Message
> > From: "Don Denhardt" <dondenhardt@y...>
> > To: <basicstamps@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 7:41 PM
> > Subject: Re: [noparse][[/noparse]basicstamps] Re: Automotive/Marine applications
> >
> > > Actually I believe you do not need distance traveled for the purposes
of
> > > calculating fuel efficiencies.
> > >
> > > Speed over the bottom or actual distance traveled is inconsequential.
> > > It would give you flaky readings when you were fighting a current as
> > > opposed to traveling with the current.
> > >
> > > Actual or precise fuel quantity measurements may not be needed either.
> > > You would simply need some simple sensor that could accurately measure
> > > flow rates. If the output was such that if the flow rate doubled and
it
> > > resulted in a doubling of the sensors reading, it should be enough to
do
> > > the job.
> > >
> > > Stable and repeatable fuel efficiency readouts can only be had when
> > > comparing fuel consumption with relative speed or movement. How far
you
> > > go is not as important as the fuel consumption rates used in getting
> > > there. Hope this makes some sense.
> > >
> > > The readout would not need to reflect actual KPG but could simply be a
> > > figure of merit used to assist the operator in setting throttle and
trim
> > > settings for best economy. For example if I had such an imaginary
> > > system and I knew my craft would be capable of a figure of merit of
> > > 49.5, I would simply try to get in that neighborhood with control
> > > adjustments.
> > >
> > > I suspect that head or tailwind on a powerboat up on plane would have
> > > little overall impact. The vast amount of horsepower is expended in
> > > overcoming the drag through the water. Unless of course you are
fighting
> > > gale force winds head on. Under those circumstances I would think
> > > there's a tad more to be concerned about than fuel efficiencies. Fuel
> > > consumption goes to zero if you've dropped the hook and are riding it
> > > out. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> > >
> > > The only challenge I see in this project would be to insure proper
> > > calibration of a vacuum sensor. If it used, that whatever readings
are
> > > given by the sensor, that a doubling in speed results in a doubling of
> > > vacuum sensor result.
> > >
> > > Quite possibly in the end this figure of merit may be dividable by a
> > > fudge factor to get you fairly close to KPG.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "anode505 " wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thats a lot to muster up. If its feul injected it *could* be
> > > > easier. Measure the injection time, inlet feul pressure and return
> > > > pressure. Then to interface to the GPS to get the distance
traveled.
> > > > (can't use the knot meter since it *will* factor in the current (be
> > > > it tide or river). Now if carb'ed, thatsa differnet story. You'd
> > > > need an good flow meter. The actual flow will be rather slow and
> > > > intermitent; since the float valve will open/close. Different
> > > > loading on the boat would change the feul consumption, trim,
current,
> > > > wind, etc.
> > > >
> > > > eitherway its a lot of number crunching and pricey sensors. I
forgot
> > > > if the stamp does floating point (been on the Pic Basic Pro program
> > > > now) If not. Stop here. It won't be of much use. Esier to just
> > > > use a vac sensor (to measure engine load), RPM, and typical gal per
> > > > hour and crunch for something 'near'
> > > >
> > > > Have fun
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hi Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > > Yet another application that I am sure many power boat enthusiasts
> > > > would
> > > > > clamor for would be a nautical miles per gallon indicator.
> > > > >
> > > > > A Stamp accepting input from a fuel flow sensor(s) and converted
> > > > iron
> > > > > log (or a simple vacuum sensor connected to a transom mounted
> > > > pickup)
> > > > > could easily calculate miles per gallon for a helm LED display.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you are not in a hurry you could play with throttle and trim
> > > > settings
> > > > > to boost the reading and save some dollars at the next fuel dock
> > > > stop.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ii_awesum wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi everyone, I just joined.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a BS2 Stamp that I mucked around with some time ago and
it
> > > > was
> > > > > > loads of fun. I managed to make a home alarm with outgoing
text-
> > > > > > paging alerts, an inbound telephone/dtmf interface, and also
> > > > > > manipulate some X-10 appliances.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have any of you made any useful Auto/Marine applications?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For my boat I can think of things like manifold heat sensors,
> > > > > > automate the (crappy) fridge thermostat, tank level sensors etc.
> > > > with
> > > > > > graphical output on the 4-line LCD display, and audio alarms as
> > > > > > required.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any creative input is most welcome!
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
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[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Mos <mos@s...> wrote:
> (I haven't followed this thread completely, so apologies if I'm
repeating
> what was already mentioned).
>
> Application is not relevant - load is not the same thing as RPM.
> Load is load, no matter what you're propelling; just that in cars
cruising
> typically puts less load on the engine than in a boat - it doesn't
mean
> you're measuring something different.
>
> Fuel usage is a function of load and rpm (and engine volumetric
efficiency
> depending on how you're measuring load). To use just one will give
you a
> measure of that quantity only, and not the desired mpg or kpg, etc.
>
> Don't forget you can be going down a steep hill at 7000rpm in 2nd
gear and
> using less fuel than while idling.
>
> Electronic content: If you know the flow rating of the injector,
measuring
> the time it is open will give you an estimate of instantaneous fuel
usage.
> Tapping the signal at the input of the injector drivers inside the
ECU
> gives you a cleaner signal to measure than at the injectors
themselves.
>
> Mos.
>
> --
> 84 AE86, 90 ST185GrpA, 91 MX83Gr, Sydney, Oz.
>
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, anode505 <anode505@y...> wrote:
>
> > Still varries enough. Try a nice chop going into the tide with
bad
> > trim.
> >
> > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
<CHRIS@R...>"
> > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > That's true but engine load in a vehicle is different than
engine
> > > load in a boat, there is less resistance....same as an airplane.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "anode505 <anode505@y...>"
> > > <anode505@y...> wrote:
> > > > Not all the time. How about climbing a steep hill in your car?
> > > > Engine load is part of it. If you press the gas pedal, it
allows
> > > > more air into the engine, the carb/injection add the right
> > > (hopefully
> > > > right) amount of fuel for the air volume/mass. So at a low
RPM,
> > > > heavy load or same RPM light load the fuel consumption will be
> > > > different.
> > > >
> > > > --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, "christopher41877
> > <CHRIS@R...>"
> > > > <CHRIS@R...> wrote:
> > > > > I think you will have an accurate MPG, KPG or whatever you
want
> > > to
> > > > > use. More engine RPM=more fuel used!!!
>Sorry if a posting upsets you!
>
>My advice would be to not read them. After all you can choose to ignore
>if you would like. I often only read about topics that I have an
>interest in.
I would like to thank Don for blowing a very INTERESTING topic. I only
read the list messages about once a month, that way, the question, and
usually the answer is all ready by the time I read them.
I was very interested in where that thread was going, until no less than 25
messages in a row were your bickering about your pulses. Somewhere in
those 50 posts was some good information (not about the pulser), but you
managed to bury it in all of your ramblings.
If you really feel like you must bore us to death, CHANGE THE SUBJECT to
something that reflects what you are talking about. That way I CAN SKIP
topics that don't interest me. Sorry to make everyone look at this, but I
just couldn't stand it. Oh, and Don, bicker back all you want, I'll read
your reply somewhere around January 18th, 2003!
-John
I'll try to remember to change the subject, AS YOU
HAVE, when responding to folks that cannot disagree
without being insulting or editorializing.
I suspect that you are not a bit sorry to subject
folks to your whiney self serving posting. Glad it
made you feel better.
If reading is such a chore for you, perhaps you could
switch to the digest and invest in a speed reading
course. Of course that may not help in overcoming the
big word (multi-sylable) speed bumps.
--- John Walton <john@l...> wrote:
> At 05:37 AM 12/9/02 -0500, you wrote:
> >Sorry if a posting upsets you!
> >
> >My advice would be to not read them. After all you
> can choose to ignore
> >if you would like. I often only read about topics
> that I have an
> >interest in.
>
>
> I would like to thank Don for blowing a very
> INTERESTING topic. I only
> read the list messages about once a month, that way,
> the question, and
> usually the answer is all ready by the time I read
> them.
>
> I was very interested in where that thread was
> going, until no less than 25
> messages in a row were your bickering about your
> pulses. Somewhere in
> those 50 posts was some good information (not about
> the pulser), but you
> managed to bury it in all of your ramblings.
>
> If you really feel like you must bore us to death,
> CHANGE THE SUBJECT to
> something that reflects what you are talking about.
> That way I CAN SKIP
> topics that don't interest me. Sorry to make
> everyone look at this, but I
> just couldn't stand it. Oh, and Don, bicker back
> all you want, I'll read
> your reply somewhere around January 18th, 2003!
>
> -John
>
>
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed.
> Text in the Subject and Body of the message will be
> ignored.
>
>
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
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