Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
stratification.
The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
equalizing voltage levels being used.
Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
area.
Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
Rodent wrote:
>
> A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but I
> think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was out
> in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> batteries cost thousands of dollars.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the Specific
> > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> >
> > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Do you work for the battery industry to be so desperate as to suggest
that a motorcycle would ever need a 2400lb battery (that is 400 X 6)?
Personally I think it a bit absurd.
Also most folks I know of only get one or two years out of their
motorcycle and garden tractor batteries.
BUT!
Great! Keep buying those recycled batteries. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
It is one of the reasons I get my batteries for free. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
It should be noted that the other modes of failure only account for less
than 20% of battery failures. Sulfation leads the pack at over 80%.
Part of those 20% of failures have sulfation as a contributor.
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I suppose it should be noted that a major motivator for people to buy
products is the old fashioned scare tactic.
It will leave stranded and you will die a horrible death
Your kid will be disadvataged if you don't get him a computer
You will die of a horrible disease if you don't use this product
Rodent wrote:
>
> A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but I
> think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was out
> in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> batteries cost thousands of dollars.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the Specific
> > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> >
> > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
>sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
>other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
>and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
>to civilization.
The power battery pack in the trunk of the Toyota Prius is a
Nickel-Metal-Hydride chemistry, and consists of 228 cells of 1.2
volts in series (38 * 6 volts), for a terminal voltage of 274 volts.
The battery pack weighs 110 pounds, and looks pretty small for what
it does. The battery powers the 44hp (33kwatt) electric motor in
tandem with the 1500cc Atkinson cycle gas engine. The charging
system must be quite impressive, regulated by the computer as is
everything else in the vehicle. They claim a life of 10s of
thousands of cycles and 8 years. A "Cycle" is hard to define,
because the battery system is always switching from charge to power
as needed. I don't know how much it will cost to replace the
battery, but who knows what that technology will look like 8 years
from now. The Prius also has a small lead-acid battery to run the
instrument panel.
There might be some interesting Stamp projects to do with that car.
>Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
>due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
>stratification.
>
>The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
>greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
>had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
>
>That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
>power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
>equalizing voltage levels being used.
Don, an auto starting battery, which is what you're mostly talking about
when you talk about moderate storage times in warehouses, only uses maybe
1% of its capacity to start the car. The typical car owner has no need,
nor does he even care, whether that battery will deliver 80%, 90% or 100%
of its reserve capacity upon delivery. The auto charging system is more
than adequate to bring it up to full charge, including reconverting any
small amount of sulfate that may have formed in the warehouse. You are
just tossing out distorted facts to try to convince folks there's a problem
where none really exists just so you can sell a solution for it.
I have taken the time to suggest to the original poster about a good
purpose for an unused BS2.
Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare tactics,
and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
involve yourself that is fine by me.
Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may discover
that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that desulfation
pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some cases
better than new) spec.
I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact that
I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to the kit
area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with inductors
the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to wait a
month for them to come in.
So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to gain a
more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
furthering the output and understanding of the process has been done by
folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct parts.
There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially in the
area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This is true on dry-charged batteries? Unlike auto parts stores, most bike
shops and all mail-order places sell the batteries dry. Some include acid,
some don't.
Original Message
> Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> stratification.
>
> The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
>
> That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> equalizing voltage levels being used.
>
> Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
> desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
> bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
>
> Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
> area.
>
> Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
> crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
>
> Rodent wrote:
> >
> > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
I
> > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
out
> > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> >
> >
Original Message
> >
> > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
Specific
> > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > >
> > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
No I am not attempting to sell anything. I merely attempted to suggest
a purpose for an unused BS2.
I suspect a typical car owner would like to have a battery that has an
extended life span. Folks with PV arrays and expensive battery banks
sure do.
And you should get your facts straight.
Should a battery sit long enough with sulfation deposits they will
convert to bonding strength that equalization charging will not remove
or break down. Let alone the lower charging voltage an automotive
system provides.
That as that 600CCA battery gains sulfates it ultimately will not spin
your 100A starter. A process that can be reversed. So please don't try
to confuse the issue.
The fact remains that the reason you have a 600CCA battery to spin a
100A starter is because of the substantial loss in capacity over time.
That capacity is needed or the battery would only start your car for a
few months.
AND the focus of what I had to say applies to all flooded cell
batteries, starter or deep discharge.
It appears that it is you and others that feel threatened by this new
technology. You continue to provide the distortion and misinformation.
Of course this is not a problem for people who work in the battery
industry and greet customers with a smile to sell them a "New" recycled
battery.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 15:42 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> >due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> >stratification.
> >
> >The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> >greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> >had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
> >
> >That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> >power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> >equalizing voltage levels being used.
>
> Don, an auto starting battery, which is what you're mostly talking about
> when you talk about moderate storage times in warehouses, only uses maybe
> 1% of its capacity to start the car. The typical car owner has no need,
> nor does he even care, whether that battery will deliver 80%, 90% or 100%
> of its reserve capacity upon delivery. The auto charging system is more
> than adequate to bring it up to full charge, including reconverting any
> small amount of sulfate that may have formed in the warehouse. You are
> just tossing out distorted facts to try to convince folks there's a problem
> where none really exists just so you can sell a solution for it.
>
> Jim H
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
The vast majority of flooded lead acid batteries are sold wet.
Most people will deal with battery dealers or large retailers that
maintain an inventory with self discharging consequences.
I am talking about the vast majority of batteries in use not specialty
shops or unusual ordering and shipping techniques.
Rodent wrote:
>
> This is true on dry-charged batteries? Unlike auto parts stores, most bike
> shops and all mail-order places sell the batteries dry. Some include acid,
> some don't.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> > due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> > stratification.
> >
> > The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> > greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> > had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
> >
> > That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> > power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> > equalizing voltage levels being used.
> >
> > Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
> > desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
> > bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
> >
> > Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
> > area.
> >
> > Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
> > crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
apples and oranges.
if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
however, Don, you could fight fire....
by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
into landfills or back yards....
putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
drinking water...
and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
from the dioxins from the plastics....
We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
transistors and capacitors.
In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
series ?
There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
major benefit to those home brew projects.
And I am sure that many of us on here have either a friend who would
be interested, or are interested themselves.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> I have taken the time to suggest to the original poster about a good
> purpose for an unused BS2.
>
> Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
> than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare
tactics,
> and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
> involve yourself that is fine by me.
>
> Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
>
> I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
> discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may
discover
> that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that
desulfation
> pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some
cases
> better than new) spec.
>
> I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact
that
> I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
> that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to
the kit
> area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
>
> I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
> correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with
inductors
> the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
> correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to
wait a
> month for them to come in.
>
> So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
> without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
> parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to
gain a
> more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
>
> Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
> furthering the output and understanding of the process has been
done by
> folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct
parts.
> There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
>
> But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
> science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially
in the
> area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
>
>
>
> Rodent wrote:
> >
> > When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb
battery and a
> > pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy
chargers.
> > Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine
with me.
> >
> > If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would
think about
> > sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for
problems
> > other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will
also kill them
> > and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+
mile walk back
> > to civilization.
> >
> >
Original Message
> >
> > > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their
owners
> > > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a
considerable
> > > investment to save.
> > >
> > > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart
you will
> > > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are
normally
> > > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New"
batteries and
> > > selling them to you again.
> > >
> > > I fail to see the difference.
> > >
> > > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be
using a
> > > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> > >
> > > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rodent wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or
shop, but
> > I
> > > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected
one if I was
> > out
> > > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides,
its not like
> > > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > > >
> > > >
Original Message
> > > >
> > > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched
the
> > Specific
> > > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to
life; seen
> > > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in
the green
> > > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how
their dead
> > > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on
enhancements
> > > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
At 19:44 12/08/02, Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...> wrote:
>Hi Don, Rodent,
>
>I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
>apples and oranges.
>
>if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
>interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
>means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
>to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
>
>however, Don, you could fight fire....
>
>by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
>into landfills or back yards....
>putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
>drinking water...
>and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
>from the dioxins from the plastics....
Dave, lead-acid batteries are not buried in landfills. They are pretty
much 99% resmelted. If you want to focus on the few irresponsible
consumers that's your right, but please don't think or even imply that's
the norm for the industry. Stick to the facts vs vilifying the opposition.
>We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
>failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
>transistors and capacitors.
If you land-filled them you also land-filled the lead in the solder, the
cadmium in any NiCd backup cells that may have been mounted on them,
etc. Printed circuits sent to landfills were a greater source of
land-filled lead (not to mention cadmium in the NiCd CMOS backup batteries
- now mostly lithium) than were lead-acid batteries when legislation
finally mandated other disposal methods. Just within the past two months
you might have read about a boatload of computer scrap that was rejected
for disposal in China and was turned around and sent back to (as I recall)
the USA. Read up on lead-acid battery recycling. You've heard that hog
packing houses use everything but the squeal? Well, if lead-acid batteries
squealed, the lead-acid industry would recycle the squeal.
>In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
>technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
>or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
>series ?
By all means! But please try to keep the claims reasonable. Bear in mind
a 12-volt transformer with a diode and a 6-volt flashlight bulb in series
with the secondary will perform the same function of maintaining a stored
battery. Far fewer parts than any desulfator and just as (not more, not
less) effective.
>There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
>wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
>major benefit to those home brew projects.
Do some web searching. Second hand batteries disposed of because of a need
to upgrade, or similar reason, are prime material for use in private
alternate energy projects. Batteries that need to undergo extensive
"salvage" or "rejuvenation" are usually lousy prospects. Some Google
searching on this sort of thing and maybe a few emails to the few active
folks who emerge from this search will confirm this. The private
individual alternate energy crowd is heavily populated with tin foil hats
so don't rely on just one source - even if it agrees with me. ;-)
You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
information you will need for DIY is at the main web site http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
I'll repeat an earlier posting for those interested,
For Stamp use, merely build up the output stage only of this NFET
schematic (R4, C3,
Q1, L1, L2, D1 and C4).
Q1=IRL630 or IRFZ44N,
C4=200uF to 6800uF (100V rated)
L1=220uH (2A capable)
L2=1000uH (1A capable)
D1=6A capable, fast recovery http://shaka.com/~kalepa/556alternate.gif
But PLEASE do not email the author of the article as he is extremely
busy on another project and has asked folks to direct any questions you
may have to the BBS http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
Stamp can be used for other things.
You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
slightly better mileage in your auto.
Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
undercharging
them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
battery.
The requirements?
A fast rising pulse that is at a minimum double the battery voltage
A PRF in the neighborhood of 1Khz to 5Khz
Write an article??? Naaaaaaaw I don't draw schematics very well.
I had submitted the project to Parallax but they chose to ignore it in
favor of doggy doors, industrial pallet stackers, submarines and other
such uses that most people clamor for [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Dave I sell about 1 pulser kit a week, but it is my understanding from
the various web sites I've seen that Mr. Coupers desulfator has been
built by the tens if not the hundreds of thousands.
You are right as many who have built them and have recovered batteries,
often begin cranking them out for friends and relatives (the 555
variety). It is not uncommon after their first successes to go back an
order parts for 10 to 20 of them. Seen a lot of that!
If you would like to become involved, read all that you can starting
with Mr. Coupers article, the main site and the BBS.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
this public forum. I have nothing to hide [noparse]:)[/noparse]
"Dave Mucha " wrote:
>
> Hi Don, Rodent,
>
> I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
> apples and oranges.
>
> if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
> interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
> means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
> to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
>
> however, Don, you could fight fire....
>
> by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
> into landfills or back yards....
> putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
> drinking water...
> and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
> from the dioxins from the plastics....
>
> We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
> failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
> transistors and capacitors.
>
> In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
> technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
> or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
> series ?
>
> There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
> wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
> major benefit to those home brew projects.
>
> And I am sure that many of us on here have either a friend who would
> be interested, or are interested themselves.
>
> Dave
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > I have taken the time to suggest to the original poster about a good
> > purpose for an unused BS2.
> >
> > Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
> > than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare
> tactics,
> > and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
> > involve yourself that is fine by me.
> >
> > Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
> >
> > I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
> > discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may
> discover
> > that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that
> desulfation
> > pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some
> cases
> > better than new) spec.
> >
> > I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact
> that
> > I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
> > that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to
> the kit
> > area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
> >
> > I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
> > correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with
> inductors
> > the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
> > correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to
> wait a
> > month for them to come in.
> >
> > So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
> > without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
> > parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to
> gain a
> > more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
> >
> > Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
> > furthering the output and understanding of the process has been
> done by
> > folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct
> parts.
> > There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
> >
> > But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
> > science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially
> in the
> > area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb
> battery and a
> > > pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy
> chargers.
> > > Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine
> with me.
> > >
> > > If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would
> think about
> > > sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for
> problems
> > > other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will
> also kill them
> > > and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+
> mile walk back
> > > to civilization.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > > > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their
> owners
> > > > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a
> considerable
> > > > investment to save.
> > > >
> > > > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart
> you will
> > > > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are
> normally
> > > > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > > > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New"
> batteries and
> > > > selling them to you again.
> > > >
> > > > I fail to see the difference.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be
> using a
> > > > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> > > >
> > > > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rodent wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or
> shop, but
> > > I
> > > > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected
> one if I was
> > > out
> > > > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides,
> its not like
> > > > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > > > >
> > > > >
Original Message
> > > > >
> > > > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched
> the
> > > Specific
> > > > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to
> life; seen
> > > > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in
> the green
> > > > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how
> their dead
> > > > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on
> enhancements
> > > > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
>nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
>have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
>information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
>http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
[noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
>brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
>3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
>Stamp can be used for other things.
What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
interpretation.
>You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
>will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
>starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
>equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
say it.
Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
>trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
>permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
>alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
>slightly better mileage in your auto.
Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
something is wrong here.
No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
>have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
>
>The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
>on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
>relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
>undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
(can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
purpose?
>People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
>since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
>collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
>drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
>designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
>http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
>
>Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
>effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
>battery.
I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
expected warranty claims.
The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
[noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
>this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
else cares.
Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
support their disagreement.
It's considered bad manners to harrumph about huffing and puffing about
a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing
about.
Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
and have no training or experience in.
For the sake of slow learners and those with an antiquated education
we'll expand on the explanation for theirs and your benefit Jim.
Over 80% of so called failed batteries are replaced due to sulfation
buildup on the plates. This is a reversible process. This is also a
battery industry statistic. Not my words Jim! Your industry said it.
The three to five year period is the normal life span for automotive
starter batteries. A one month treatment at the near end of it's life
cycle will spring it back for another 3 to 5 years. Yeah if you ever do
battery autopsies you will note there is a lot of usable lead plate
there. I see that your belief system prevents you from taking an active
part in restoring batteries. Too bad, I guess you are doomed to not
learn anything new!
And yes Jim some folks only see a short life span from their battery if
they live in warmer climates and spend a lot of time idling in traffic.
The underhood temps get a tad warm when you are doing less than 20MPH.
I've heard from some folks that only get between 1 to 2 years service
due to the environment the batteries are subjected to.
It seems the only place where the lead plates are consumed totally is in
lab testing. It just doesn't happen in the real world. In the real
world the batteries sulfate up to the point they are no longer usable
and are traded in for one of your industry's recycled specials that are
called new.
Now Jim this may be a hard concept to grasp but try to stay with me
here, RECYCLED is different then RESTORED or RECOVERED. In recycled the
batteries are ground up, melted and reused for the manufacture of the so
called NEW batteries. Restored means that you take the battery and
recover it's usefulness while intact.
Should that battery ever fail for any other reason a suitable
replacement can easily be found at what I call the free battery store
(salvage yards, battery dealers, etc...). Armed with a pulser you will
NEVER buy another battery again.
Why do I say this?? It is because I have recovered over 70 lead acid
batteries to near new or exceeding new batt performance.
Having problems understanding the recharging process are we??? Aw Cmon
Jim, your technical education can not be that lacking is it??
A sulfate free battery recharges faster. Ever connect a battery charger
to an old battery and note it never goes below a certain amperage. This
is opposed to connecting a battery charger to a new or restored battery
and the amps drop to near zero.
The reason for this is the low cell voltage caused by the low SG of the
electrolyte. Once Class III bonded sulfates cling to the plate NO
amount of charging will break them down. That is only accomplished by
pulsing or chemical treatment (EDTA tetrasodium salt).
So yes while good batts have the charge amps reduce to near zero, your
sulfated batt will continue to take a heavier charge with an attendant
toll on the alternator and belts. The charge rate will never diminish
as the large sulfate crystals will not break down with automotive or
equalizing charge rates. It will merely gas the dickens out of cells in
better shape.
So all your charging system does is create a lot of gas. Just because
the charging system is under a load does NOT mean it is doing any useful
work as far as the battery is concerned. So it appears that it is you
that is not displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry and
physics of battery (re)charging.
Are we together so far???
Probably not as you seem to confuse easily and have trouble separating a
battery that will not raise it's voltage up to healthy standards with a
battery that refuses to take a charge.
I have no idea where you got that thought. I never mentioned anything
about the class of battery that refuses to take a charge (normally
stratified electrolyte). Sorry to use the big words Jim. That means
that the acid has settles to the bottom of the case and the electrolyte
is largely water. I'll try not to use many multi-sylable words for your
sake.
It is quite apparent that you know nothing about desulfators. I'd be
happy to educate you privately, but I see you insist on flaunting your
ignorance in public. So here goes.
There are two ways to electronically desulfate, pulse charging
techniques or by a dedicated desulfator. My discussion is focussed on a
dedicated desulfator (pulser).
The way it works is, the desulfator draws it's power from the battery
and builds up a charge in an inductor. When the FET shuts off the
magnetic fields collapse and produce an inductive spike that rises in
about 50 nanoseconds (sorry about the big word but it couldn't be
helped). The voltage developed is generally in the neighborhood of 30
to 80 volts. The fast rising pulse (like lightening seeking a low
impedance path to ground) finds the sulfates and directly attacks them.
All the power of the spike goes to the sulfated areas instead of the
clean plate areas.
Now I know you are thinking "What kind of voodoo black magic sleight of
hand is being played here. How can a battery condition improve when it
is being discharged???"
The answer is, it breaks down the sulfates while only drawing 0.040 to
0.070A. Thats right, it draws about as much as your car's computer.
AND yes it requires that the small amount of energy used is replaced.
Normally this is not a problem for a car in daily use or even one that
is only used a few times a week. It takes awhile to bleed down a car
batt with a 0.040A to 0.070 discharge rate.
Offline recovery is best done using a trickle charger. Just enough
power to replace what the pulser draws and to overcome the self
discharging characteristics.
I run my car with a pulser attached and have not come out in the morning
to a dead battery. Remember now the circuit only takes 0.040A to
0.070A. The troubleshooting breakpoint for excessive draw is normally
considered to be 0.100A. Normally this circuit together with the
automotive computer is around that figure.
I normally hang a pulser on the battery for a few weeks every year.
This is best done in the summer as the battery is a chemical device and
responds better the warmer it gets up to about 120DegF.
I see an extended explanation is in order to clear up other
misconceptions on your part. The 555 or Stamp only controls the charge
current to the gate of the FET. The desulfating power does not go
through the 555 or Stamp. The heart of the desulfator lies in the two
inductors, FET, electrolytic capacitor and diode. These are the pulse
producing components. The 555 or Stamp merely trigger the FET.
Yeah probably a lot of those old guys would roll in their graves with
the discoveries made since their passing. I see you are having a
difficult time comprehending new technology. Actually it's over 20
years old so it is not exactly new. Oh that is right you stated that
your education ended 30 years ago. Well I guess that explains it!
Perhaps that also explains your difficulty with 3rd grade math. Was
that the state of the art of higher education when you got it??
I realize that a life span that grossly exceeds what you are accustomed
to is hard to believe, but it happens to be a fact. Sorry if this gets
you upset.
If you have further questions, ask away I'll try to answer them for all
the good it will do. I suspect you are one of the types that claim
"Don't confuse me with the facts - My mind is already made up". At
least that is what you have demonstrated so far.
You can rant and rave all you want. Your foaming at the mouth will not
change the delight most folks experience when their battery comes back
from the dead not to mention all the money they save.
and click on "Product info" and then click on "Testimonials"
Although this is a website of a pulser that is not as powerful as the
pulsers we make DIY, you can see that your BS is kind of a lost
whimpering compared with all the folks that are happy with pulser
performance and the money they save.
Now you have to remember that these testimonials are from the small
percentage of the folks that bothered to write in. AND also these
customers only represent those who have purchased that particular
manufacturers product. There are many other pulser manufacturers in the
United States.
Sooooooooooooooo, once again in closing,
Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
support their disagreement.
It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and puffing
about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely
nothing about.
Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
and have no training or experience in.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>
> >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> >Stamp can be used for other things.
>
> What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> interpretation.
>
> >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
>
> Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> say it.
>
> Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
> Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>
> >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> >slightly better mileage in your auto.
>
> Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> something is wrong here.
>
> No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
>
> Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>
> >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> >
> >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> purpose?
>
> >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
>
> And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>
> >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> >
> >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> >battery.
>
> I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> expected warranty claims.
>
> The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>
> >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
>
> I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> else cares.
>
> Jim H
>
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>
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Sorry to break up your blissful ignorance but some idiots do throw
batteries in public dumps. This does create a health hazard for many
that live near them, especially the children.
There are many battery drop off centers that will refuse to take the
lead-antimony types. They do wind up in dumps. I'm not sure of the
percentages, but it does happen and lead in the drinking water is a fact
of life.
Sorry again to burst your bubble but a 12V transformer with a diode
(with or without a 6V flashlight bulb) is incapable of producing a 30V
to 80V pulse with a 50nanosecond rise time.
Time to go back to school Jim!
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 19:44 12/08/02, Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...> wrote:
> >Hi Don, Rodent,
> >
> >I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
> >apples and oranges.
> >
> >if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
> >interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
> >means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
> >to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
> >
> >however, Don, you could fight fire....
> >
> >by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
> >into landfills or back yards....
> >putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
> >drinking water...
> >and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
> >from the dioxins from the plastics....
>
> Dave, lead-acid batteries are not buried in landfills. They are pretty
> much 99% resmelted. If you want to focus on the few irresponsible
> consumers that's your right, but please don't think or even imply that's
> the norm for the industry. Stick to the facts vs vilifying the opposition.
>
> >We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
> >failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
> >transistors and capacitors.
>
> If you land-filled them you also land-filled the lead in the solder, the
> cadmium in any NiCd backup cells that may have been mounted on them,
> etc. Printed circuits sent to landfills were a greater source of
> land-filled lead (not to mention cadmium in the NiCd CMOS backup batteries
> - now mostly lithium) than were lead-acid batteries when legislation
> finally mandated other disposal methods. Just within the past two months
> you might have read about a boatload of computer scrap that was rejected
> for disposal in China and was turned around and sent back to (as I recall)
> the USA. Read up on lead-acid battery recycling. You've heard that hog
> packing houses use everything but the squeal? Well, if lead-acid batteries
> squealed, the lead-acid industry would recycle the squeal.
>
> >In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
> >technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
> >or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
> >series ?
>
> By all means! But please try to keep the claims reasonable. Bear in mind
> a 12-volt transformer with a diode and a 6-volt flashlight bulb in series
> with the secondary will perform the same function of maintaining a stored
> battery. Far fewer parts than any desulfator and just as (not more, not
> less) effective.
>
> >There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
> >wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
> >major benefit to those home brew projects.
>
> Do some web searching. Second hand batteries disposed of because of a need
> to upgrade, or similar reason, are prime material for use in private
> alternate energy projects. Batteries that need to undergo extensive
> "salvage" or "rejuvenation" are usually lousy prospects. Some Google
> searching on this sort of thing and maybe a few emails to the few active
> folks who emerge from this search will confirm this. The private
> individual alternate energy crowd is heavily populated with tin foil hats
> so don't rely on just one source - even if it agrees with me. ;-)
>
> 73 de Jim, KB3PU
>
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>
>
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Oh and if you are getting upset because you believe that desulfation
does not have any merit, I'm sure that you will really foam at the mouth
to learn that the government is pretty much mandating pulser use in all
branches of the military to save money on battery replacement costs.
That is right Jim!
They are taking your hard earned tax dollars and spending it on a
process that you have no faith in (also no training or experience).
I'm sure you will want to write your elected representatives and harumph
and complain, ad nauseum, about what YOU consider to be a waste of
money. Be sure to mention that you have warmed a seat in the battery
industry for over 3 decades.
That is impressive!
Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
>
> I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
> dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
> of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
> support their disagreement.
>
> It's considered bad manners to harrumph about huffing and puffing about
> a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing
> about.
>
> Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
> decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
> and have no training or experience in.
>
> For the sake of slow learners and those with an antiquated education
> we'll expand on the explanation for theirs and your benefit Jim.
>
> Over 80% of so called failed batteries are replaced due to sulfation
> buildup on the plates. This is a reversible process. This is also a
> battery industry statistic. Not my words Jim! Your industry said it.
>
> The three to five year period is the normal life span for automotive
> starter batteries. A one month treatment at the near end of it's life
> cycle will spring it back for another 3 to 5 years. Yeah if you ever do
> battery autopsies you will note there is a lot of usable lead plate
> there. I see that your belief system prevents you from taking an active
> part in restoring batteries. Too bad, I guess you are doomed to not
> learn anything new!
>
> And yes Jim some folks only see a short life span from their battery if
> they live in warmer climates and spend a lot of time idling in traffic.
> The underhood temps get a tad warm when you are doing less than 20MPH.
> I've heard from some folks that only get between 1 to 2 years service
> due to the environment the batteries are subjected to.
>
> It seems the only place where the lead plates are consumed totally is in
> lab testing. It just doesn't happen in the real world. In the real
> world the batteries sulfate up to the point they are no longer usable
> and are traded in for one of your industry's recycled specials that are
> called new.
>
> Now Jim this may be a hard concept to grasp but try to stay with me
> here, RECYCLED is different then RESTORED or RECOVERED. In recycled the
> batteries are ground up, melted and reused for the manufacture of the so
> called NEW batteries. Restored means that you take the battery and
> recover it's usefulness while intact.
>
> Should that battery ever fail for any other reason a suitable
> replacement can easily be found at what I call the free battery store
> (salvage yards, battery dealers, etc...). Armed with a pulser you will
> NEVER buy another battery again.
>
> Why do I say this?? It is because I have recovered over 70 lead acid
> batteries to near new or exceeding new batt performance.
>
> Having problems understanding the recharging process are we??? Aw Cmon
> Jim, your technical education can not be that lacking is it??
>
> A sulfate free battery recharges faster. Ever connect a battery charger
> to an old battery and note it never goes below a certain amperage. This
> is opposed to connecting a battery charger to a new or restored battery
> and the amps drop to near zero.
>
> The reason for this is the low cell voltage caused by the low SG of the
> electrolyte. Once Class III bonded sulfates cling to the plate NO
> amount of charging will break them down. That is only accomplished by
> pulsing or chemical treatment (EDTA tetrasodium salt).
>
> So yes while good batts have the charge amps reduce to near zero, your
> sulfated batt will continue to take a heavier charge with an attendant
> toll on the alternator and belts. The charge rate will never diminish
> as the large sulfate crystals will not break down with automotive or
> equalizing charge rates. It will merely gas the dickens out of cells in
> better shape.
>
> So all your charging system does is create a lot of gas. Just because
> the charging system is under a load does NOT mean it is doing any useful
> work as far as the battery is concerned. So it appears that it is you
> that is not displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry and
> physics of battery (re)charging.
>
> Are we together so far???
>
> Probably not as you seem to confuse easily and have trouble separating a
> battery that will not raise it's voltage up to healthy standards with a
> battery that refuses to take a charge.
>
> I have no idea where you got that thought. I never mentioned anything
> about the class of battery that refuses to take a charge (normally
> stratified electrolyte). Sorry to use the big words Jim. That means
> that the acid has settles to the bottom of the case and the electrolyte
> is largely water. I'll try not to use many multi-sylable words for your
> sake.
>
> It is quite apparent that you know nothing about desulfators. I'd be
> happy to educate you privately, but I see you insist on flaunting your
> ignorance in public. So here goes.
>
> There are two ways to electronically desulfate, pulse charging
> techniques or by a dedicated desulfator. My discussion is focussed on a
> dedicated desulfator (pulser).
>
> The way it works is, the desulfator draws it's power from the battery
> and builds up a charge in an inductor. When the FET shuts off the
> magnetic fields collapse and produce an inductive spike that rises in
> about 50 nanoseconds (sorry about the big word but it couldn't be
> helped). The voltage developed is generally in the neighborhood of 30
> to 80 volts. The fast rising pulse (like lightening seeking a low
> impedance path to ground) finds the sulfates and directly attacks them.
> All the power of the spike goes to the sulfated areas instead of the
> clean plate areas.
>
> Now I know you are thinking "What kind of voodoo black magic sleight of
> hand is being played here. How can a battery condition improve when it
> is being discharged???"
>
> The answer is, it breaks down the sulfates while only drawing 0.040 to
> 0.070A. Thats right, it draws about as much as your car's computer.
> AND yes it requires that the small amount of energy used is replaced.
> Normally this is not a problem for a car in daily use or even one that
> is only used a few times a week. It takes awhile to bleed down a car
> batt with a 0.040A to 0.070 discharge rate.
>
> Offline recovery is best done using a trickle charger. Just enough
> power to replace what the pulser draws and to overcome the self
> discharging characteristics.
>
> I run my car with a pulser attached and have not come out in the morning
> to a dead battery. Remember now the circuit only takes 0.040A to
> 0.070A. The troubleshooting breakpoint for excessive draw is normally
> considered to be 0.100A. Normally this circuit together with the
> automotive computer is around that figure.
>
> I normally hang a pulser on the battery for a few weeks every year.
> This is best done in the summer as the battery is a chemical device and
> responds better the warmer it gets up to about 120DegF.
>
> I see an extended explanation is in order to clear up other
> misconceptions on your part. The 555 or Stamp only controls the charge
> current to the gate of the FET. The desulfating power does not go
> through the 555 or Stamp. The heart of the desulfator lies in the two
> inductors, FET, electrolytic capacitor and diode. These are the pulse
> producing components. The 555 or Stamp merely trigger the FET.
>
> Yeah probably a lot of those old guys would roll in their graves with
> the discoveries made since their passing. I see you are having a
> difficult time comprehending new technology. Actually it's over 20
> years old so it is not exactly new. Oh that is right you stated that
> your education ended 30 years ago. Well I guess that explains it!
> Perhaps that also explains your difficulty with 3rd grade math. Was
> that the state of the art of higher education when you got it??
>
> I realize that a life span that grossly exceeds what you are accustomed
> to is hard to believe, but it happens to be a fact. Sorry if this gets
> you upset.
>
> If you have further questions, ask away I'll try to answer them for all
> the good it will do. I suspect you are one of the types that claim
> "Don't confuse me with the facts - My mind is already made up". At
> least that is what you have demonstrated so far.
>
> You can rant and rave all you want. Your foaming at the mouth will not
> change the delight most folks experience when their battery comes back
> from the dead not to mention all the money they save.
>
> Once again Jim,
>
> Go to this site
> http://www.pulsetech.net/
>
> and click on "Product info" and then click on "Testimonials"
>
> Although this is a website of a pulser that is not as powerful as the
> pulsers we make DIY, you can see that your BS is kind of a lost
> whimpering compared with all the folks that are happy with pulser
> performance and the money they save.
>
> Now you have to remember that these testimonials are from the small
> percentage of the folks that bothered to write in. AND also these
> customers only represent those who have purchased that particular
> manufacturers product. There are many other pulser manufacturers in the
> United States.
>
> Sooooooooooooooo, once again in closing,
>
> Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
>
> I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
> dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
> of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
> support their disagreement.
>
> It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and puffing
> about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely
> nothing about.
>
> Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
> decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
> and have no training or experience in.
>
> Jim Higgins wrote:
> >
> > At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
> >
> > >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> > >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> > >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> > >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> > >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
> >
> > >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> > >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> > >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> > >Stamp can be used for other things.
> >
> > What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> > long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> > life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> > interpretation.
> >
> > >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> > >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> > >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> > >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
> >
> > Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> > years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> > the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> > it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> > 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> > for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> > total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> > matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> > say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> > we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> > say it.
> >
> > Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> > figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> > lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> > service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
> >
> > Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> > hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
> >
> > >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> > >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> > >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> > >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> > >slightly better mileage in your auto.
> >
> > Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> > and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> > then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> > of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> > charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> > far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> > original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> > and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> > tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> > that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> > refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> > and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> > system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> > something is wrong here.
> >
> > No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> > it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> > must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> > whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> > alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> > wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> > thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> > the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> > milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> > few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> > you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> > do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> > have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
> >
> > Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> > pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> > original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> > week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> > that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> > these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> > so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
> >
> > >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> > >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> > >
> > >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> > >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> > >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> > >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> >
> > Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> > the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> > (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> > have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> > have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> > talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> > high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> > field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> > brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> > best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> > charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> > purpose?
> >
> > >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> > >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> > >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> > >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
> >
> > And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> > reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
> >
> > >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> > >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> > >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> > >
> > >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> > >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> > >battery.
> >
> > I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> > you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> > 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> > of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> > ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> > recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> > beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> > the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> > conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> > the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> > battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> > already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> > enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> > expected warranty claims.
> >
> > The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> > than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> > performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> > warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> > mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> > that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> > both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on
it.
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
> >
> > >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> > >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
> >
> > I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> > else cares.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
I've noticed also that in your attempts at brevity (obsfucation?) you
have kept the link to the original article written for and published in
Home Power magazine. http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
However you failed to retain my request that the author (Mr. Alastair
Couper) not be bothered with emails. He has requested folks to direct
their questions to the desulfation BBS. http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
He is heavily involved in a physics project that is light years ahead of
your comprehension and beliefs.
Perhaps in the future you could be more respectful of others wishes not
to be disturbed. I thought it was pretty lousy to not include the
request in your snipping.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>
> >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> >Stamp can be used for other things.
>
> What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> interpretation.
>
> >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
>
> Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> say it.
>
> Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
> Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>
> >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> >slightly better mileage in your auto.
>
> Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> something is wrong here.
>
> No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
>
> Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>
> >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> >
> >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> purpose?
>
> >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
>
> And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>
> >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> >
> >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> >battery.
>
> I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> expected warranty claims.
>
> The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>
> >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
>
> I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> else cares.
>
> Jim H
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and
> puffing about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know
> absolutely nothing about.
I, as well as many others on this list I'm sure, consider it bad
manners to continue this battery babble and these personal attacks on
this list. This group was specifically created for Basic Stamp
enthusiasts. I realize that you had suggested early on in this
thread that one use a stamp for your desulfator project, however this
discussion has now migrated well beyond the scope of this group. If
you wish to continue the argument then please do it elsewhere,
perhaps at:
That BBS is specifically geared towards the type of conversation that
you are conducting here, and is one that you had personally linked to
in one of your previous 23 posts to this list in the last 36 hours.
My advice would be to not read them. After all you can choose to ignore
if you would like. I often only read about topics that I have an
interest in.
I suppose it is better to not in any way offend anyone rather than to
enlighten folks or respond to a nasty attack that suggests I have
difficulty with 3rd grade math.
And heaven forbid anyone attempt to clear up any misunderstanding about
the usefulness of a process
Once again click on "Product information" and "Testimonials" to discover
how many have discovered how well it works http://www.pulsetech.net/
Is there any review body for censorship prior to posting in this forum??
Or are you sort of making up suggested rules as you go along?
Perhaps you would like it if the only people that posted, only posted
material in subjects that you personally have an interest in. I'm sure
this would make for a better world for you if people did not post
"babble" about subjects you personally are not interested in.
Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most of
the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find it a
fascinating subject. http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
Although there are not many actively involved in enhancing the process.
"Ron Jeremy " wrote:
>
> > It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and
> > puffing about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know
> > absolutely nothing about.
>
> I, as well as many others on this list I'm sure, consider it bad
> manners to continue this battery babble and these personal attacks on
> this list. This group was specifically created for Basic Stamp
> enthusiasts. I realize that you had suggested early on in this
> thread that one use a stamp for your desulfator project, however this
> discussion has now migrated well beyond the scope of this group. If
> you wish to continue the argument then please do it elsewhere,
> perhaps at:
>
> http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
>
> That BBS is specifically geared towards the type of conversation that
> you are conducting here, and is one that you had personally linked to
> in one of your previous 23 posts to this list in the last 36 hours.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> Perhaps you would like it if the only people that posted, only
> posted material in subjects that you personally have an interest
> in. I'm sure this would make for a better world for you if people
> did not post "babble" about subjects you personally are not
> interested in.
Last time I checked, this was the whole idea behind forming a mailing
list called "Basic Stamps," or "Chevy Corvettes," or "Useless Battery
Talk," or any other specific subject for that matter. The whole idea
is to post messages about the subject - so that people interested in
the subject - can come read material about that particular subject.
> Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most
> of the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find
> it a fascinating subject.
> http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
were completely off topic.
Actually I am very excited about how the BASIC Stamp BS2 series
outperforms virtually anything on the planet when used in the
desulfation application.
AND the use of a BASIC Stamp is within the topic of this forum.
It has demonstrated to be a very potent tool in being able to desulfate
battery banks in the 12V to 24V range that are quite a few thousands Amp
Hours with a just a few small components.
Quite an elegant solution to a 100 year old problem.
I see by your handle that you are 24 years old and tend bar. I can see
where this application might not appeal to you.
Well perhaps there are others that are interested in the process now and
in the future. When these messages drift away with time, others that do
have an interest, and do a search, may find some valuable information
and links.
Be sure to post where you tend bar at. If I am ever in Chicago, I'll be
sure to stop in and buy a round [noparse]:)[/noparse]
That is if I can ever tear myself away from the lab.
"Ron Jeremy " wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you would like it if the only people that posted, only
> > posted material in subjects that you personally have an interest
> > in. I'm sure this would make for a better world for you if people
> > did not post "babble" about subjects you personally are not
> > interested in.
>
> Last time I checked, this was the whole idea behind forming a mailing
> list called "Basic Stamps," or "Chevy Corvettes," or "Useless Battery
> Talk," or any other specific subject for that matter. The whole idea
> is to post messages about the subject - so that people interested in
> the subject - can come read material about that particular subject.
>
> > Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most
> > of the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find
> > it a fascinating subject.
> > http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
>
> I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> were completely off topic.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Just don't write to the author -- he is very busy with secret research and
has no time for questions!
Original Message
> I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> were completely off topic.
We simply ask that you read all previous material before asking a
question that has been asked about a zillion times.
The author of the original article is heavily involved in research and
has asked that he not be disturbed.
Do you have a problem with that?
You probably have no idea what it is like to be published and have your
email address listed on a topic that has interest worldwide.
As a minor player I generally have an email loading of 2 to 3 hours each
night. Mr. Couper used to get avalanches of mail.
Rodent wrote:
>
> Just don't write to the author -- he is very busy with secret research and
> has no time for questions!
>
>
Original Message
>
> > I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> > thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> > sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> > BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> > and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> > were completely off topic.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Here in NJ, there is a $5.00 charge to take your battey back to get
it recycled. The dealer is required by law to accpet your dead unit
so the recycle path is there. it just costs the consumer.
some dealers sell at lower prices and charge to recycle, others add
the $5.00 and accept your old battery for 'free'
It's easy to find people who would rather save $5.00 than recycle. or
are just too lazy to go back to the store with a toxic,leaking
lead/acid weight in their trunk.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Sorry to break up your blissful ignorance but some idiots do throw
> batteries in public dumps. This does create a health hazard for
many
> that live near them, especially the children.
>
> There are many battery drop off centers that will refuse to take the
> lead-antimony types. They do wind up in dumps. I'm not sure of the
> percentages, but it does happen and lead in the drinking water is a
fact
> of life.
>That sulfation is a major cause of premature battery failure is
>undisputed. What appears to be in dispute is the various methods to either
>prevent or reverse it.
According to the battery makers, sulfation problems can be minimized by
keeping the battery fully charged, and by periodically equalizing the cells
with a controlled overcharge. The charger for my sailboat batteries does
this. I don't know if it works, and I probably never will. When my
deep-cycle batteries finally die (be it in 3 to 10 years), I really won't
know if my regular equalization helped or not. For all I know, if my
batteries last 10 years, it may because of the deodorant I use. I just have
no way of proving it, one way or the other, with the limited sample (that
is, one) of batteries that I have available to test.
Others (such as Don) believe that the pulse method works.
The problem for most of us is that we have no way to prove (or
disprove) the claims. The only way to prove or disprove such claims is via
controlled, scientific test. Anecdotal evidence is useful, but not nearly
as reliable, since it is not normally the result of carefully controlled
experiments, and also because most anecdotal evidence is of a positive
nature - i.e. people who got the results they wanted; people who didn't
frequently just drop the whole thing without reporting their results.
However, the whole point of the original posting was to talk about a
potential application for a Stamp. Whether or not it is a USEFUL
application for some of us is moot.
I respectfully suggest that we limit our discussions to the process, not
the politics
The proof is easy to obtain by a variety of methods.
1. Snag a car that for the first time is having a hard time starting
and attach a pulser to it. Normally within 24 hours the car will
start. Within 48 hours the car will start with ease.
2. Trickle charge an old battery for a few days to be sure it has taken
all the charge it can take and take initial SG readings. Then put a
pulser on it and note the SG readings climb on a weekly basis.
3. Have some faith that the people that took the trouble to write in
their testimonials to the pulse tech site knew what they were talking
about. You will see many stories about how they had previously had to
replace batts on a yearly or every few years and since they were
desulfating their batts many had yet to replace any of the conditioned
batts. In fact I think I spotted some testimonials from folks up your
way.
4. I could quote the folks that have written to me but I suspect the
naysayers would simply say I dreamed them up or that they were
delusional. So I didn't bother.
5. You could look up the US Army testing lab results where the testing
was done at a number of Army installations. The results of the testing
were so positive, it lead to the multi-service wide program of pulser
use in their battery maintenance programs.
And they are not claims it is fact. The process is the fruits of over
20 years of research.
Larry Bradley wrote:
>
> >That sulfation is a major cause of premature battery failure is
> >undisputed. What appears to be in dispute is the various methods to either
> >prevent or reverse it.
>
> According to the battery makers, sulfation problems can be minimized by
> keeping the battery fully charged, and by periodically equalizing the cells
> with a controlled overcharge. The charger for my sailboat batteries does
> this. I don't know if it works, and I probably never will. When my
> deep-cycle batteries finally die (be it in 3 to 10 years), I really won't
> know if my regular equalization helped or not. For all I know, if my
> batteries last 10 years, it may because of the deodorant I use. I just have
> no way of proving it, one way or the other, with the limited sample (that
> is, one) of batteries that I have available to test.
>
> Others (such as Don) believe that the pulse method works.
>
> The problem for most of us is that we have no way to prove (or
> disprove) the claims. The only way to prove or disprove such claims is via
> controlled, scientific test. Anecdotal evidence is useful, but not nearly
> as reliable, since it is not normally the result of carefully controlled
> experiments, and also because most anecdotal evidence is of a positive
> nature - i.e. people who got the results they wanted; people who didn't
> frequently just drop the whole thing without reporting their results.
>
> However, the whole point of the original posting was to talk about a
> potential application for a Stamp. Whether or not it is a USEFUL
> application for some of us is moot.
>
> I respectfully suggest that we limit our discussions to the process, not
> the politics
>
> Larry Bradley
> Orleans (Ottawa), Ontario, CANADA
>
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smartdim@a... wrote:
>
> Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was frozen
solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
Jason
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
>
> If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
>
> smartdim@a... wrote:
> >
> > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
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Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
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Comments
due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
stratification.
The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
equalizing voltage levels being used.
Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
area.
Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
Rodent wrote:
>
> A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but I
> think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was out
> in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> batteries cost thousands of dollars.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the Specific
> > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> >
> > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
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that a motorcycle would ever need a 2400lb battery (that is 400 X 6)?
Personally I think it a bit absurd.
Also most folks I know of only get one or two years out of their
motorcycle and garden tractor batteries.
BUT!
Great! Keep buying those recycled batteries. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
It is one of the reasons I get my batteries for free. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
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than 20% of battery failures. Sulfation leads the pack at over 80%.
Part of those 20% of failures have sulfation as a contributor.
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
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products is the old fashioned scare tactic.
It will leave stranded and you will die a horrible death
Your kid will be disadvataged if you don't get him a computer
You will die of a horrible disease if you don't use this product
Rodent wrote:
>
> A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but I
> think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was out
> in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> batteries cost thousands of dollars.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the Specific
> > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> >
> > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
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>sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
>other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
>and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
>to civilization.
The power battery pack in the trunk of the Toyota Prius is a
Nickel-Metal-Hydride chemistry, and consists of 228 cells of 1.2
volts in series (38 * 6 volts), for a terminal voltage of 274 volts.
The battery pack weighs 110 pounds, and looks pretty small for what
it does. The battery powers the 44hp (33kwatt) electric motor in
tandem with the 1500cc Atkinson cycle gas engine. The charging
system must be quite impressive, regulated by the computer as is
everything else in the vehicle. They claim a life of 10s of
thousands of cycles and 8 years. A "Cycle" is hard to define,
because the battery system is always switching from charge to power
as needed. I don't know how much it will cost to replace the
battery, but who knows what that technology will look like 8 years
from now. The Prius also has a small lead-acid battery to run the
instrument panel.
There might be some interesting Stamp projects to do with that car.
-- Tracy
>Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
>due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
>stratification.
>
>The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
>greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
>had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
>
>That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
>power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
>equalizing voltage levels being used.
Don, an auto starting battery, which is what you're mostly talking about
when you talk about moderate storage times in warehouses, only uses maybe
1% of its capacity to start the car. The typical car owner has no need,
nor does he even care, whether that battery will deliver 80%, 90% or 100%
of its reserve capacity upon delivery. The auto charging system is more
than adequate to bring it up to full charge, including reconverting any
small amount of sulfate that may have formed in the warehouse. You are
just tossing out distorted facts to try to convince folks there's a problem
where none really exists just so you can sell a solution for it.
Jim H
purpose for an unused BS2.
Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare tactics,
and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
involve yourself that is fine by me.
Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may discover
that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that desulfation
pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some cases
better than new) spec.
I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact that
I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to the kit
area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with inductors
the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to wait a
month for them to come in.
So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to gain a
more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
furthering the output and understanding of the process has been done by
folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct parts.
There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially in the
area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
Rodent wrote:
>
> When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb battery and a
> pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy chargers.
> Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine with me.
>
> If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would think about
> sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for problems
> other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will also kill them
> and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+ mile walk back
> to civilization.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their owners
> > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a considerable
> > investment to save.
> >
> > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart you will
> > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are normally
> > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New" batteries and
> > selling them to you again.
> >
> > I fail to see the difference.
> >
> > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be using a
> > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> >
> > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
>
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shops and all mail-order places sell the batteries dry. Some include acid,
some don't.
Original Message
> Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> stratification.
>
> The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
>
> That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> equalizing voltage levels being used.
>
> Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
> desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
> bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
>
> Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
> area.
>
> Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
> crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
>
> Rodent wrote:
> >
> > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
I
> > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
out
> > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> >
> >
Original Message
> >
> > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
Specific
> > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > >
> > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
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http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
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>
>
a purpose for an unused BS2.
I suspect a typical car owner would like to have a battery that has an
extended life span. Folks with PV arrays and expensive battery banks
sure do.
And you should get your facts straight.
Should a battery sit long enough with sulfation deposits they will
convert to bonding strength that equalization charging will not remove
or break down. Let alone the lower charging voltage an automotive
system provides.
That as that 600CCA battery gains sulfates it ultimately will not spin
your 100A starter. A process that can be reversed. So please don't try
to confuse the issue.
The fact remains that the reason you have a 600CCA battery to spin a
100A starter is because of the substantial loss in capacity over time.
That capacity is needed or the battery would only start your car for a
few months.
AND the focus of what I had to say applies to all flooded cell
batteries, starter or deep discharge.
It appears that it is you and others that feel threatened by this new
technology. You continue to provide the distortion and misinformation.
Of course this is not a problem for people who work in the battery
industry and greet customers with a smile to sell them a "New" recycled
battery.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 15:42 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> >due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> >stratification.
> >
> >The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> >greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> >had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
> >
> >That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> >power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> >equalizing voltage levels being used.
>
> Don, an auto starting battery, which is what you're mostly talking about
> when you talk about moderate storage times in warehouses, only uses maybe
> 1% of its capacity to start the car. The typical car owner has no need,
> nor does he even care, whether that battery will deliver 80%, 90% or 100%
> of its reserve capacity upon delivery. The auto charging system is more
> than adequate to bring it up to full charge, including reconverting any
> small amount of sulfate that may have formed in the warehouse. You are
> just tossing out distorted facts to try to convince folks there's a problem
> where none really exists just so you can sell a solution for it.
>
> Jim H
>
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Most people will deal with battery dealers or large retailers that
maintain an inventory with self discharging consequences.
I am talking about the vast majority of batteries in use not specialty
shops or unusual ordering and shipping techniques.
Rodent wrote:
>
> This is true on dry-charged batteries? Unlike auto parts stores, most bike
> shops and all mail-order places sell the batteries dry. Some include acid,
> some don't.
>
>
Original Message
>
> > Also, the "New" battery you purchase will already have lost some life
> > due to self discharging sulfation buildup and electrolyte
> > stratification.
> >
> > The longer batts sit on the shelf at the wholesale and retail level the
> > greater the loss. Some of it is permanent if the sulfate crystals have
> > had the time to increase their bonding strength and size.
> >
> > That is one of the reasons the battery industry suggests that maximum
> > power is only achieved with quite a few discharge/charge cycles,
> > equalizing voltage levels being used.
> >
> > Actually the only thing that will truly "Equalize" cells is a
> > desulfation pulser. Once the sulfate crystals have achieved a Class III
> > bond, no amount of equalizing charge will break them down.
> >
> > Only desulfation pulses or a chemical treatment will free up that plate
> > area.
> >
> > Chemical treatments are a poor choice as they merely dissolve the
> > crystals and do not return them as lead and sulfuric acid.
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or shop, but
> I
> > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected one if I was
> out
> > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides, its not like
> > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched the
> Specific
> > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to life; seen
> > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in the green
> > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > >
> > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how their dead
> > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on enhancements
> > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject
> and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
> Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
apples and oranges.
if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
however, Don, you could fight fire....
by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
into landfills or back yards....
putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
drinking water...
and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
from the dioxins from the plastics....
We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
transistors and capacitors.
In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
series ?
There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
major benefit to those home brew projects.
And I am sure that many of us on here have either a friend who would
be interested, or are interested themselves.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> I have taken the time to suggest to the original poster about a good
> purpose for an unused BS2.
>
> Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
> than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare
tactics,
> and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
> involve yourself that is fine by me.
>
> Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
>
> I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
> discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may
discover
> that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that
desulfation
> pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some
cases
> better than new) spec.
>
> I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact
that
> I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
> that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to
the kit
> area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
>
> I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
> correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with
inductors
> the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
> correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to
wait a
> month for them to come in.
>
> So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
> without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
> parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to
gain a
> more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
>
> Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
> furthering the output and understanding of the process has been
done by
> folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct
parts.
> There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
>
> But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
> science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially
in the
> area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
>
>
>
> Rodent wrote:
> >
> > When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb
battery and a
> > pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy
chargers.
> > Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine
with me.
> >
> > If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would
think about
> > sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for
problems
> > other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will
also kill them
> > and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+
mile walk back
> > to civilization.
> >
> >
Original Message
> >
> > > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their
owners
> > > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a
considerable
> > > investment to save.
> > >
> > > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart
you will
> > > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are
normally
> > > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New"
batteries and
> > > selling them to you again.
> > >
> > > I fail to see the difference.
> > >
> > > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be
using a
> > > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> > >
> > > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rodent wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or
shop, but
> > I
> > > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected
one if I was
> > out
> > > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides,
its not like
> > > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > > >
> > > >
Original Message
> > > >
> > > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched
the
> > Specific
> > > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to
life; seen
> > > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in
the green
> > > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how
their dead
> > > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on
enhancements
> > > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>Hi Don, Rodent,
>
>I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
>apples and oranges.
>
>if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
>interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
>means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
>to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
>
>however, Don, you could fight fire....
>
>by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
>into landfills or back yards....
>putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
>drinking water...
>and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
>from the dioxins from the plastics....
Dave, lead-acid batteries are not buried in landfills. They are pretty
much 99% resmelted. If you want to focus on the few irresponsible
consumers that's your right, but please don't think or even imply that's
the norm for the industry. Stick to the facts vs vilifying the opposition.
>We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
>failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
>transistors and capacitors.
If you land-filled them you also land-filled the lead in the solder, the
cadmium in any NiCd backup cells that may have been mounted on them,
etc. Printed circuits sent to landfills were a greater source of
land-filled lead (not to mention cadmium in the NiCd CMOS backup batteries
- now mostly lithium) than were lead-acid batteries when legislation
finally mandated other disposal methods. Just within the past two months
you might have read about a boatload of computer scrap that was rejected
for disposal in China and was turned around and sent back to (as I recall)
the USA. Read up on lead-acid battery recycling. You've heard that hog
packing houses use everything but the squeal? Well, if lead-acid batteries
squealed, the lead-acid industry would recycle the squeal.
>In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
>technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
>or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
>series ?
By all means! But please try to keep the claims reasonable. Bear in mind
a 12-volt transformer with a diode and a 6-volt flashlight bulb in series
with the secondary will perform the same function of maintaining a stored
battery. Far fewer parts than any desulfator and just as (not more, not
less) effective.
>There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
>wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
>major benefit to those home brew projects.
Do some web searching. Second hand batteries disposed of because of a need
to upgrade, or similar reason, are prime material for use in private
alternate energy projects. Batteries that need to undergo extensive
"salvage" or "rejuvenation" are usually lousy prospects. Some Google
searching on this sort of thing and maybe a few emails to the few active
folks who emerge from this search will confirm this. The private
individual alternate energy crowd is heavily populated with tin foil hats
so don't rely on just one source - even if it agrees with me. ;-)
73 de Jim, KB3PU
You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
Or latest developments and techniques at the BBS,
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
I'll repeat an earlier posting for those interested,
For Stamp use, merely build up the output stage only of this NFET
schematic (R4, C3,
Q1, L1, L2, D1 and C4).
Q1=IRL630 or IRFZ44N,
C4=200uF to 6800uF (100V rated)
L1=220uH (2A capable)
L2=1000uH (1A capable)
D1=6A capable, fast recovery
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/556alternate.gif
Component values are shown in the PFET schematic,
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/schematic.gif
OR in the original article written for Home Power magazine
http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
But PLEASE do not email the author of the article as he is extremely
busy on another project and has asked folks to direct any questions you
may have to the BBS
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
or to me
desulfator@y...
For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
Stamp can be used for other things.
You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
slightly better mileage in your auto.
Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
undercharging
them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
battery.
The requirements?
A fast rising pulse that is at a minimum double the battery voltage
A PRF in the neighborhood of 1Khz to 5Khz
Write an article??? Naaaaaaaw I don't draw schematics very well.
I had submitted the project to Parallax but they chose to ignore it in
favor of doggy doors, industrial pallet stackers, submarines and other
such uses that most people clamor for [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Dave I sell about 1 pulser kit a week, but it is my understanding from
the various web sites I've seen that Mr. Coupers desulfator has been
built by the tens if not the hundreds of thousands.
You are right as many who have built them and have recovered batteries,
often begin cranking them out for friends and relatives (the 555
variety). It is not uncommon after their first successes to go back an
order parts for 10 to 20 of them. Seen a lot of that!
If you would like to become involved, read all that you can starting
with Mr. Coupers article, the main site and the BBS.
If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
this public forum. I have nothing to hide [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Happy Pulsing,
Don
desulfator@y...
"Dave Mucha " wrote:
>
> Hi Don, Rodent,
>
> I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
> apples and oranges.
>
> if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
> interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
> means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
> to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
>
> however, Don, you could fight fire....
>
> by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
> into landfills or back yards....
> putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
> drinking water...
> and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
> from the dioxins from the plastics....
>
> We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
> failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
> transistors and capacitors.
>
> In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
> technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
> or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
> series ?
>
> There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
> wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
> major benefit to those home brew projects.
>
> And I am sure that many of us on here have either a friend who would
> be interested, or are interested themselves.
>
> Dave
>
> --- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
> wrote:
> > I have taken the time to suggest to the original poster about a good
> > purpose for an unused BS2.
> >
> > Your personal decisions and opinions are really not my concern other
> > than the fact that it appears to be purposeful smearing, scare
> tactics,
> > and misinformation about a proven process. If you do not care to
> > involve yourself that is fine by me.
> >
> > Amazing how many people appear to be threatened by this technology.
> >
> > I would hope that the detrimental comments made by a few do not
> > discourage folks from trying a pulser for themselves. They may
> discover
> > that the earth does indeed revolve around the sun and that
> desulfation
> > pulsing will bring sulfated batteries back to near new (in some
> cases
> > better than new) spec.
> >
> > I suppose that at some point another detractor will assail the fact
> that
> > I sell desulfation kits and have a vested interest. You should note
> > that I have gone through great pains to avoid providing links to
> the kit
> > area. Instead I have linked the schematics for DIY.
> >
> > I started supplying parts in order that experimenters can get the
> > correct parts. My initial foray into this area wound up with
> inductors
> > the size of human hair and surface mount caps. When I did get the
> > correct parts on order the supplier was out of stock and I had to
> wait a
> > month for them to come in.
> >
> > So to enable more people to get involved with this fascinating area
> > without the bother of going through procurement hassles I sell the
> > parts. Once again my intent was to get more people involved to
> gain a
> > more rapid refinement of the initial desulfator design.
> >
> > Sadly it has not worked out that way. Most of the contributions to
> > furthering the output and understanding of the process has been
> done by
> > folks around the planet who are capable of getting the correct
> parts.
> > There have been notable contributions from the folks in Europe.
> >
> > But I still have hope that more will become involved and further the
> > science and understanding of the desulfation process. Especially
> in the
> > area of BASIC Stamp pulsers, programs and techniques.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rodent wrote:
> > >
> > > When they build a motorcycle with the room to house a 400lb
> battery and a
> > > pulse charger I will be first in line to buy one of these fancy
> chargers.
> > > Until then, a $40 Wal-Mart battery every 4 years or so is fine
> with me.
> > >
> > > If I had a hybrid car with a trunk full of batteries I would
> think about
> > > sulphation problems -- otherwise no. And batteries do fail for
> problems
> > > other than sulphation -- vibration, overcharging, etc... will
> also kill them
> > > and can leave you out in the sticks with no phones and a 100+
> mile walk back
> > > to civilization.
> > >
> > >
Original Message
> > >
> > > > Actually there are some batteries whose cost exceeds a thousand
> > > > dollars. Ever see a 400lb to 800lb 2V cell? I hear from their
> owners
> > > > all the time when their battery bank fails and they have a
> considerable
> > > > investment to save.
> > > >
> > > > If you bother to take the time to cut a failed battery apart
> you will
> > > > find that the lead plates have hardly been used. They are
> normally
> > > > disposed of and the battery industry has a remarkable record of
> > > > recycling all the parts, putting them in so called "New"
> batteries and
> > > > selling them to you again.
> > > >
> > > > I fail to see the difference.
> > > >
> > > > Personally, if I am out in the middle of nowhere I'd rather be
> using a
> > > > battery that has a pulser permanently connected to it.
> > > >
> > > > I know it will not fail and leave me stranded.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Rodent wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > A reconditioned battery would be fine for around the house or
> shop, but
> > > I
> > > > > think I would rather trust a new battery than a resurrected
> one if I was
> > > out
> > > > > in the middle of nowhere in my car or on the bike. Besides,
> its not like
> > > > > batteries cost thousands of dollars.
> > > > >
> > > > >
Original Message
> > > > >
> > > > > > For myself, I've recovered too many dead batteries, watched
> the
> > > Specific
> > > > > > Gravity rise as the battery was pulsed and brought back to
> life; seen
> > > > > > many previously dead batteries start cars and load test in
> the green
> > > > > > once more to have any doubts about the process.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've heard from many many folks that were ecstatic over how
> their dead
> > > > > > batteries came back to life after using a pulser based on
> enhancements
> > > > > > of Mr. Coupers original design.
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
> Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
>nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
>have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
>information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
>http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
[noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
>brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
>3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
>Stamp can be used for other things.
What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
interpretation.
>You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
>will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
>starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
>equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
say it.
Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
>trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
>permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
>alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
>slightly better mileage in your auto.
Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
something is wrong here.
No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
>have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
>
>The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
>on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
>relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
>undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
(can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
purpose?
>People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
>since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
>collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
>drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
>designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
>http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
>
>Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
>effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
>battery.
I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
expected warranty claims.
The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
[noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
>this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
else cares.
Jim H
I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
support their disagreement.
It's considered bad manners to harrumph about huffing and puffing about
a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing
about.
Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
and have no training or experience in.
For the sake of slow learners and those with an antiquated education
we'll expand on the explanation for theirs and your benefit Jim.
Over 80% of so called failed batteries are replaced due to sulfation
buildup on the plates. This is a reversible process. This is also a
battery industry statistic. Not my words Jim! Your industry said it.
The three to five year period is the normal life span for automotive
starter batteries. A one month treatment at the near end of it's life
cycle will spring it back for another 3 to 5 years. Yeah if you ever do
battery autopsies you will note there is a lot of usable lead plate
there. I see that your belief system prevents you from taking an active
part in restoring batteries. Too bad, I guess you are doomed to not
learn anything new!
And yes Jim some folks only see a short life span from their battery if
they live in warmer climates and spend a lot of time idling in traffic.
The underhood temps get a tad warm when you are doing less than 20MPH.
I've heard from some folks that only get between 1 to 2 years service
due to the environment the batteries are subjected to.
It seems the only place where the lead plates are consumed totally is in
lab testing. It just doesn't happen in the real world. In the real
world the batteries sulfate up to the point they are no longer usable
and are traded in for one of your industry's recycled specials that are
called new.
Now Jim this may be a hard concept to grasp but try to stay with me
here, RECYCLED is different then RESTORED or RECOVERED. In recycled the
batteries are ground up, melted and reused for the manufacture of the so
called NEW batteries. Restored means that you take the battery and
recover it's usefulness while intact.
Should that battery ever fail for any other reason a suitable
replacement can easily be found at what I call the free battery store
(salvage yards, battery dealers, etc...). Armed with a pulser you will
NEVER buy another battery again.
Why do I say this?? It is because I have recovered over 70 lead acid
batteries to near new or exceeding new batt performance.
Having problems understanding the recharging process are we??? Aw Cmon
Jim, your technical education can not be that lacking is it??
A sulfate free battery recharges faster. Ever connect a battery charger
to an old battery and note it never goes below a certain amperage. This
is opposed to connecting a battery charger to a new or restored battery
and the amps drop to near zero.
The reason for this is the low cell voltage caused by the low SG of the
electrolyte. Once Class III bonded sulfates cling to the plate NO
amount of charging will break them down. That is only accomplished by
pulsing or chemical treatment (EDTA tetrasodium salt).
So yes while good batts have the charge amps reduce to near zero, your
sulfated batt will continue to take a heavier charge with an attendant
toll on the alternator and belts. The charge rate will never diminish
as the large sulfate crystals will not break down with automotive or
equalizing charge rates. It will merely gas the dickens out of cells in
better shape.
So all your charging system does is create a lot of gas. Just because
the charging system is under a load does NOT mean it is doing any useful
work as far as the battery is concerned. So it appears that it is you
that is not displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry and
physics of battery (re)charging.
Are we together so far???
Probably not as you seem to confuse easily and have trouble separating a
battery that will not raise it's voltage up to healthy standards with a
battery that refuses to take a charge.
I have no idea where you got that thought. I never mentioned anything
about the class of battery that refuses to take a charge (normally
stratified electrolyte). Sorry to use the big words Jim. That means
that the acid has settles to the bottom of the case and the electrolyte
is largely water. I'll try not to use many multi-sylable words for your
sake.
It is quite apparent that you know nothing about desulfators. I'd be
happy to educate you privately, but I see you insist on flaunting your
ignorance in public. So here goes.
There are two ways to electronically desulfate, pulse charging
techniques or by a dedicated desulfator. My discussion is focussed on a
dedicated desulfator (pulser).
The way it works is, the desulfator draws it's power from the battery
and builds up a charge in an inductor. When the FET shuts off the
magnetic fields collapse and produce an inductive spike that rises in
about 50 nanoseconds (sorry about the big word but it couldn't be
helped). The voltage developed is generally in the neighborhood of 30
to 80 volts. The fast rising pulse (like lightening seeking a low
impedance path to ground) finds the sulfates and directly attacks them.
All the power of the spike goes to the sulfated areas instead of the
clean plate areas.
Now I know you are thinking "What kind of voodoo black magic sleight of
hand is being played here. How can a battery condition improve when it
is being discharged???"
The answer is, it breaks down the sulfates while only drawing 0.040 to
0.070A. Thats right, it draws about as much as your car's computer.
AND yes it requires that the small amount of energy used is replaced.
Normally this is not a problem for a car in daily use or even one that
is only used a few times a week. It takes awhile to bleed down a car
batt with a 0.040A to 0.070 discharge rate.
Offline recovery is best done using a trickle charger. Just enough
power to replace what the pulser draws and to overcome the self
discharging characteristics.
I run my car with a pulser attached and have not come out in the morning
to a dead battery. Remember now the circuit only takes 0.040A to
0.070A. The troubleshooting breakpoint for excessive draw is normally
considered to be 0.100A. Normally this circuit together with the
automotive computer is around that figure.
I normally hang a pulser on the battery for a few weeks every year.
This is best done in the summer as the battery is a chemical device and
responds better the warmer it gets up to about 120DegF.
I see an extended explanation is in order to clear up other
misconceptions on your part. The 555 or Stamp only controls the charge
current to the gate of the FET. The desulfating power does not go
through the 555 or Stamp. The heart of the desulfator lies in the two
inductors, FET, electrolytic capacitor and diode. These are the pulse
producing components. The 555 or Stamp merely trigger the FET.
Yeah probably a lot of those old guys would roll in their graves with
the discoveries made since their passing. I see you are having a
difficult time comprehending new technology. Actually it's over 20
years old so it is not exactly new. Oh that is right you stated that
your education ended 30 years ago. Well I guess that explains it!
Perhaps that also explains your difficulty with 3rd grade math. Was
that the state of the art of higher education when you got it??
I realize that a life span that grossly exceeds what you are accustomed
to is hard to believe, but it happens to be a fact. Sorry if this gets
you upset.
If you have further questions, ask away I'll try to answer them for all
the good it will do. I suspect you are one of the types that claim
"Don't confuse me with the facts - My mind is already made up". At
least that is what you have demonstrated so far.
You can rant and rave all you want. Your foaming at the mouth will not
change the delight most folks experience when their battery comes back
from the dead not to mention all the money they save.
Once again Jim,
Go to this site
http://www.pulsetech.net/
and click on "Product info" and then click on "Testimonials"
Although this is a website of a pulser that is not as powerful as the
pulsers we make DIY, you can see that your BS is kind of a lost
whimpering compared with all the folks that are happy with pulser
performance and the money they save.
Now you have to remember that these testimonials are from the small
percentage of the folks that bothered to write in. AND also these
customers only represent those who have purchased that particular
manufacturers product. There are many other pulser manufacturers in the
United States.
Sooooooooooooooo, once again in closing,
Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
support their disagreement.
It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and puffing
about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely
nothing about.
Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
and have no training or experience in.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>
> >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> >Stamp can be used for other things.
>
> What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> interpretation.
>
> >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
>
> Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> say it.
>
> Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
> Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>
> >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> >slightly better mileage in your auto.
>
> Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> something is wrong here.
>
> No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
>
> Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>
> >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> >
> >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> purpose?
>
> >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
>
> And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>
> >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> >
> >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> >battery.
>
> I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> expected warranty claims.
>
> The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>
> >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
>
> I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> else cares.
>
> Jim H
>
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batteries in public dumps. This does create a health hazard for many
that live near them, especially the children.
There are many battery drop off centers that will refuse to take the
lead-antimony types. They do wind up in dumps. I'm not sure of the
percentages, but it does happen and lead in the drinking water is a fact
of life.
Sorry again to burst your bubble but a 12V transformer with a diode
(with or without a 6V flashlight bulb) is incapable of producing a 30V
to 80V pulse with a 50nanosecond rise time.
Time to go back to school Jim!
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 19:44 12/08/02, Dave Mucha <davemucha@j...> wrote:
> >Hi Don, Rodent,
> >
> >I've been following this thread and it seems you two are looking at
> >apples and oranges.
> >
> >if I owned a golf course and had dozens of golf carts, I'd be very
> >interested. as it is, I have one car and a $50.00 battery. that
> >means $12.50 a year is no sweat. and at $50.00 it would take 4 years
> >to get my money back from the Stamp alone.
> >
> >however, Don, you could fight fire....
> >
> >by trashing one's old battery, one is pouring poisonous sulfuric acid
> >into landfills or back yards....
> >putting pounds of lead into landfills that can leach into our
> >drinking water...
> >and causing plants to make plastics with the resultant air pollution
> >from the dioxins from the plastics....
>
> Dave, lead-acid batteries are not buried in landfills. They are pretty
> much 99% resmelted. If you want to focus on the few irresponsible
> consumers that's your right, but please don't think or even imply that's
> the norm for the industry. Stick to the facts vs vilifying the opposition.
>
> >We are a throw-away society. I have tossed boards because of one
> >failure or another, wasting perfectly good resistors, op-amps,
> >transistors and capacitors.
>
> If you land-filled them you also land-filled the lead in the solder, the
> cadmium in any NiCd backup cells that may have been mounted on them,
> etc. Printed circuits sent to landfills were a greater source of
> land-filled lead (not to mention cadmium in the NiCd CMOS backup batteries
> - now mostly lithium) than were lead-acid batteries when legislation
> finally mandated other disposal methods. Just within the past two months
> you might have read about a boatload of computer scrap that was rejected
> for disposal in China and was turned around and sent back to (as I recall)
> the USA. Read up on lead-acid battery recycling. You've heard that hog
> packing houses use everything but the squeal? Well, if lead-acid batteries
> squealed, the lead-acid industry would recycle the squeal.
>
> >In closing, I would be very interested in a pulser if I knew the
> >technology. What about writing a Stamp Project for Nuts and Volts ?
> >or just this list or maybe for inclusion in the Stamps in Class
> >series ?
>
> By all means! But please try to keep the claims reasonable. Bear in mind
> a 12-volt transformer with a diode and a 6-volt flashlight bulb in series
> with the secondary will perform the same function of maintaining a stored
> battery. Far fewer parts than any desulfator and just as (not more, not
> less) effective.
>
> >There are plenty of people interested in solar IF the whole system
> >wasn't so darn expensive. workable salvaged batteries would offer a
> >major benefit to those home brew projects.
>
> Do some web searching. Second hand batteries disposed of because of a need
> to upgrade, or similar reason, are prime material for use in private
> alternate energy projects. Batteries that need to undergo extensive
> "salvage" or "rejuvenation" are usually lousy prospects. Some Google
> searching on this sort of thing and maybe a few emails to the few active
> folks who emerge from this search will confirm this. The private
> individual alternate energy crowd is heavily populated with tin foil hats
> so don't rely on just one source - even if it agrees with me. ;-)
>
> 73 de Jim, KB3PU
>
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does not have any merit, I'm sure that you will really foam at the mouth
to learn that the government is pretty much mandating pulser use in all
branches of the military to save money on battery replacement costs.
That is right Jim!
They are taking your hard earned tax dollars and spending it on a
process that you have no faith in (also no training or experience).
I'm sure you will want to write your elected representatives and harumph
and complain, ad nauseum, about what YOU consider to be a waste of
money. Be sure to mention that you have warmed a seat in the battery
industry for over 3 decades.
That is impressive!
Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
>
> I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
> dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
> of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
> support their disagreement.
>
> It's considered bad manners to harrumph about huffing and puffing about
> a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely nothing
> about.
>
> Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
> decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
> and have no training or experience in.
>
> For the sake of slow learners and those with an antiquated education
> we'll expand on the explanation for theirs and your benefit Jim.
>
> Over 80% of so called failed batteries are replaced due to sulfation
> buildup on the plates. This is a reversible process. This is also a
> battery industry statistic. Not my words Jim! Your industry said it.
>
> The three to five year period is the normal life span for automotive
> starter batteries. A one month treatment at the near end of it's life
> cycle will spring it back for another 3 to 5 years. Yeah if you ever do
> battery autopsies you will note there is a lot of usable lead plate
> there. I see that your belief system prevents you from taking an active
> part in restoring batteries. Too bad, I guess you are doomed to not
> learn anything new!
>
> And yes Jim some folks only see a short life span from their battery if
> they live in warmer climates and spend a lot of time idling in traffic.
> The underhood temps get a tad warm when you are doing less than 20MPH.
> I've heard from some folks that only get between 1 to 2 years service
> due to the environment the batteries are subjected to.
>
> It seems the only place where the lead plates are consumed totally is in
> lab testing. It just doesn't happen in the real world. In the real
> world the batteries sulfate up to the point they are no longer usable
> and are traded in for one of your industry's recycled specials that are
> called new.
>
> Now Jim this may be a hard concept to grasp but try to stay with me
> here, RECYCLED is different then RESTORED or RECOVERED. In recycled the
> batteries are ground up, melted and reused for the manufacture of the so
> called NEW batteries. Restored means that you take the battery and
> recover it's usefulness while intact.
>
> Should that battery ever fail for any other reason a suitable
> replacement can easily be found at what I call the free battery store
> (salvage yards, battery dealers, etc...). Armed with a pulser you will
> NEVER buy another battery again.
>
> Why do I say this?? It is because I have recovered over 70 lead acid
> batteries to near new or exceeding new batt performance.
>
> Having problems understanding the recharging process are we??? Aw Cmon
> Jim, your technical education can not be that lacking is it??
>
> A sulfate free battery recharges faster. Ever connect a battery charger
> to an old battery and note it never goes below a certain amperage. This
> is opposed to connecting a battery charger to a new or restored battery
> and the amps drop to near zero.
>
> The reason for this is the low cell voltage caused by the low SG of the
> electrolyte. Once Class III bonded sulfates cling to the plate NO
> amount of charging will break them down. That is only accomplished by
> pulsing or chemical treatment (EDTA tetrasodium salt).
>
> So yes while good batts have the charge amps reduce to near zero, your
> sulfated batt will continue to take a heavier charge with an attendant
> toll on the alternator and belts. The charge rate will never diminish
> as the large sulfate crystals will not break down with automotive or
> equalizing charge rates. It will merely gas the dickens out of cells in
> better shape.
>
> So all your charging system does is create a lot of gas. Just because
> the charging system is under a load does NOT mean it is doing any useful
> work as far as the battery is concerned. So it appears that it is you
> that is not displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry and
> physics of battery (re)charging.
>
> Are we together so far???
>
> Probably not as you seem to confuse easily and have trouble separating a
> battery that will not raise it's voltage up to healthy standards with a
> battery that refuses to take a charge.
>
> I have no idea where you got that thought. I never mentioned anything
> about the class of battery that refuses to take a charge (normally
> stratified electrolyte). Sorry to use the big words Jim. That means
> that the acid has settles to the bottom of the case and the electrolyte
> is largely water. I'll try not to use many multi-sylable words for your
> sake.
>
> It is quite apparent that you know nothing about desulfators. I'd be
> happy to educate you privately, but I see you insist on flaunting your
> ignorance in public. So here goes.
>
> There are two ways to electronically desulfate, pulse charging
> techniques or by a dedicated desulfator. My discussion is focussed on a
> dedicated desulfator (pulser).
>
> The way it works is, the desulfator draws it's power from the battery
> and builds up a charge in an inductor. When the FET shuts off the
> magnetic fields collapse and produce an inductive spike that rises in
> about 50 nanoseconds (sorry about the big word but it couldn't be
> helped). The voltage developed is generally in the neighborhood of 30
> to 80 volts. The fast rising pulse (like lightening seeking a low
> impedance path to ground) finds the sulfates and directly attacks them.
> All the power of the spike goes to the sulfated areas instead of the
> clean plate areas.
>
> Now I know you are thinking "What kind of voodoo black magic sleight of
> hand is being played here. How can a battery condition improve when it
> is being discharged???"
>
> The answer is, it breaks down the sulfates while only drawing 0.040 to
> 0.070A. Thats right, it draws about as much as your car's computer.
> AND yes it requires that the small amount of energy used is replaced.
> Normally this is not a problem for a car in daily use or even one that
> is only used a few times a week. It takes awhile to bleed down a car
> batt with a 0.040A to 0.070 discharge rate.
>
> Offline recovery is best done using a trickle charger. Just enough
> power to replace what the pulser draws and to overcome the self
> discharging characteristics.
>
> I run my car with a pulser attached and have not come out in the morning
> to a dead battery. Remember now the circuit only takes 0.040A to
> 0.070A. The troubleshooting breakpoint for excessive draw is normally
> considered to be 0.100A. Normally this circuit together with the
> automotive computer is around that figure.
>
> I normally hang a pulser on the battery for a few weeks every year.
> This is best done in the summer as the battery is a chemical device and
> responds better the warmer it gets up to about 120DegF.
>
> I see an extended explanation is in order to clear up other
> misconceptions on your part. The 555 or Stamp only controls the charge
> current to the gate of the FET. The desulfating power does not go
> through the 555 or Stamp. The heart of the desulfator lies in the two
> inductors, FET, electrolytic capacitor and diode. These are the pulse
> producing components. The 555 or Stamp merely trigger the FET.
>
> Yeah probably a lot of those old guys would roll in their graves with
> the discoveries made since their passing. I see you are having a
> difficult time comprehending new technology. Actually it's over 20
> years old so it is not exactly new. Oh that is right you stated that
> your education ended 30 years ago. Well I guess that explains it!
> Perhaps that also explains your difficulty with 3rd grade math. Was
> that the state of the art of higher education when you got it??
>
> I realize that a life span that grossly exceeds what you are accustomed
> to is hard to believe, but it happens to be a fact. Sorry if this gets
> you upset.
>
> If you have further questions, ask away I'll try to answer them for all
> the good it will do. I suspect you are one of the types that claim
> "Don't confuse me with the facts - My mind is already made up". At
> least that is what you have demonstrated so far.
>
> You can rant and rave all you want. Your foaming at the mouth will not
> change the delight most folks experience when their battery comes back
> from the dead not to mention all the money they save.
>
> Once again Jim,
>
> Go to this site
> http://www.pulsetech.net/
>
> and click on "Product info" and then click on "Testimonials"
>
> Although this is a website of a pulser that is not as powerful as the
> pulsers we make DIY, you can see that your BS is kind of a lost
> whimpering compared with all the folks that are happy with pulser
> performance and the money they save.
>
> Now you have to remember that these testimonials are from the small
> percentage of the folks that bothered to write in. AND also these
> customers only represent those who have purchased that particular
> manufacturers product. There are many other pulser manufacturers in the
> United States.
>
> Sooooooooooooooo, once again in closing,
>
> Personally I really don't care if you believe or not Jim.
>
> I responded to an initial posting asking for ideas on what to do with a
> dormant BS2. Now I expect that someone that HAS EXPERIENCE in the area
> of desulfation to step forward and correct me if they have any facts to
> support their disagreement.
>
> It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and puffing
> about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know absolutely
> nothing about.
>
> Simply because you warmed a seat somewhere in the battery industry for 3
> decades does not qualify you to address a process you do not understand
> and have no training or experience in.
>
> Jim Higgins wrote:
> >
> > At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
> >
> > >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> > >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> > >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> > >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> > >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
> >
> > >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> > >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> > >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> > >Stamp can be used for other things.
> >
> > What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> > long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> > life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> > interpretation.
> >
> > >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> > >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> > >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> > >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
> >
> > Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> > years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> > the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> > it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> > 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> > for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> > total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> > matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> > say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> > we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> > say it.
> >
> > Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> > figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> > lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> > service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
> >
> > Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> > hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
> >
> > >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> > >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> > >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> > >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> > >slightly better mileage in your auto.
> >
> > Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> > and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> > then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> > of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> > charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> > far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> > original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> > and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> > tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> > that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> > refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> > and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> > system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> > something is wrong here.
> >
> > No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> > it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> > must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> > whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> > alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> > wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> > thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> > the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> > milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> > few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> > you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> > do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> > have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
> >
> > Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> > pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> > original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> > week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> > that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> > these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> > so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
> >
> > >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> > >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> > >
> > >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> > >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> > >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> > >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
> >
> > Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> > the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> > (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> > have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> > have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> > talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> > high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> > field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> > brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> > best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> > charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> > purpose?
> >
> > >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> > >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> > >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> > >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
> >
> > And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> > reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
> >
> > >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> > >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> > >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> > >
> > >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> > >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> > >battery.
> >
> > I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> > you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> > 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> > of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> > ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> > recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> > beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> > the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> > conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> > the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> > battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> > already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> > enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> > expected warranty claims.
> >
> > The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> > than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> > performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> > warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> > mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> > that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> > both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on
it.
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
> >
> > >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> > >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
> >
> > I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> > else cares.
> >
> > Jim H
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and
Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
have kept the link to the original article written for and published in
Home Power magazine.
http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
However you failed to retain my request that the author (Mr. Alastair
Couper) not be bothered with emails. He has requested folks to direct
their questions to the desulfation BBS.
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
He is heavily involved in a physics project that is light years ahead of
your comprehension and beliefs.
His request can be noted at the desulfation web site,
http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
Perhaps in the future you could be more respectful of others wishes not
to be disturbed. I thought it was pretty lousy to not include the
request in your snipping.
Jim Higgins wrote:
>
> At 20:36 12/08/02, Don Denhardt wrote:
>
> >You don't need a Stamp to build a desulfator. A 555/556 will work
> >nicely with a handful of components. I only suggested using a BS2 as I
> >have found that they are superior for the pulsing purist. Most all the
> >information you will need for DIY is at the main web site
> >http://shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Snip repeat of past info for sake of brevity]
>
> >For the Stamp hobbyist with a dormant Stamp, a car battery can be
> >brought up to near new battery spec within 1 month. This means for the
> >3 to 5 year period that your car battery doesn't need assistance the
> >Stamp can be used for other things.
>
> What 3 - 5-yr period are you referring to? Are you saying that one month
> long desulfator treatment gives the battery 3 to 5 years of added
> life? Sure sounds like it and the statements below support only that
> interpretation.
>
> >You only addressed the first replacement savings. With a pulser you
> >will never have to buy another lead acid battery again. In just car
> >starter battery savings, within the 30 to 50 years we spend driving this
> >equates to avoiding possibly up to 16 replacements.
>
> Let's break down those numbers. A typical auto battery lasts what - 3
> years? A bit low in my experience, but that's in your favor and it matches
> the lower of the 3 to 5 year value you keep mentioning, so let's run with
> it. Avoiding 16 replacements means that original battery you don't replace
> 16 times will have to last how long - let's see... one lifetime of its own
> for 3 years plus the lifetime of 16 replacements for another 48 years for a
> total of 51 years? Sounds like that's what you're saying and it nicely
> matches the higher figure of 50 years you mentioned just above. You did
> say "up to" so I assume you meant the maximum value. The mind boggles, but
> we have achieved consistency in your claims so I guess you really meant to
> say it.
>
> Wanna go with only two years for typical battery life? A grossly low
> figure, but let's go ahead and run the numbers. Now that original batt
> lasts "only" 34 years. Remember we're talking an auto battery, in active
> service, under a hot hood, yadda, yadda, yadda.
>
> Will anyone who believes this is remotely possible please raise his
> hand? Anyone? Just one? Don? Is this REALLY what you meant to say?
>
> >Also what is often forgotten is the wear and tear on the charging system
> >trying to pump energy in a sulfated battery. When a pulser is
> >permanently connected this will result in less wear and tear on the
> >alternator and belts, extending their life span as well as giving you
> >slightly better mileage in your auto.
>
> Aw c'mon! You aren't displaying the first bit of knowledge of the chemistry
> and physics of battery (re)charging. If the charging system is under load
> then that's because it's doing work. The work being done is the conversion
> of sulfate to original active materials. That process is called
> charging. It's a normal process following a discharge. Are we together so
> far? Well guess what? That charging process (reconversion of sulfate to
> original active materials) must be completed before the load is reduced,
> and it is taking place as long as the load is present otherwise you need to
> tell me what work is being done with the power generated by the alternator
> that that load represents. If the battery is so badly sulfated that it is
> refusing to accept the charge current, then no charge current is flowing
> and there is no work being done and so there is no load on the charging
> system because no work is being done. That is not self consistent so
> something is wrong here.
>
> No matter whether the alternator alone performs the necessary (re)charge or
> it is facilitated by this pulsing circuit you are touting, the same work
> must be done and the same work must be performed by the charging system -
> whether it is current from the alternator directly to the battery or
> alternator current routed thru the desulfator. So where's the savings in
> wear, tear, and whatever? You're admittedly talking about no more power
> thru your device than can be passed by the 555/556 IC that is the heart of
> the pulsing circuit you keep referring to on your website - a few dozen
> milliamps on average, concentrated into widely separated pulses of maybe a
> few amps. This tiny amount of additional power is going to accomplish what
> you say a load that produces excess wear and tear on the alternator can't
> do - and the alternator supplies the power either way? The mere idea would
> have Mr Coulomb, Mr Watt and Lord Kelvin all rolling in their graves.
>
> Listen, Don. There's nothing magic about pulsed power. Whether pulsed or
> pure DC, it takes two electrons to convert one lead sulfate molecule to the
> original active material. It takes two electrons per molecule all day, all
> week, all month, all year. More if you count losses due to electrolysis
> that does nothing to improve state of charge. Your device can't change
> these simple physical/chemical laws so beautifully outlined by Mr Coulomb
> so many years ago. So where does the savings and the advantage come from?
>
> >Most of the folks I know have more than one car. Additionally, many
> >have toys such as garden tractors, motorcycles, RV's, boats, etc.....
> >
> >The savings can be considerable. Especially if you are gritting it out
> >on a mountain top, praying for sunshine, far removed from utility power,
> >relying on your Photo Voltaic array system, and chronically
> >undercharging them when the sun don't shine. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
>
> Don, batteries charge on amp-hours - remember Mr Coulomb? If you don't have
> the amp-hours you don't charge completely. Your desulfator doesn't
> (can't!) change that. On the off chance you have the amp-hours because you
> have a really huge solar array, but can't deliver them because you don't
> have the solar intensity to get the needed voltage from that array (we're
> talking Mr Ohm now), then you need a high efficiency (switching) relatively
> high-power DC-to-DC converter, which is what the pros in the photovoltaic
> field use to eke out every usable electron to the batteries, not a home
> brewed pulser equivalent that can only pass a few dozen milliamps at
> best. If you can't pass the main current needed to get the job of bulk
> charging done, the few milliamps your pulser provides serves exactly what
> purpose?
>
> >People pitching toxic waste in public dumps is deplorable. Especially
> >since the battery industry has done a remarkable job setting up
> >collection points in order to recycle them. Anyone with a bad batt can
> >drop them off anywhere batteries are sold.
>
> And well over 99% of battery scrap is recycled - meaning resmelted, not
> reused as-is as was claimed earlier.
>
> >I do not see much of a need to write an article as the original
> >designer, Mr. Alastair Couper, has done much of the work already.
> >http://www.humboldt1.com/~michael.welch/desulfator.pdf
> >
> >Some do not agree WHY it works, but few will argue about it's
> >effectiveness in restoring function to a sulfated flooded lead acid
> >battery.
>
> I don't see any reason to believe the earlier claims based on the figures
> you've sited. It doesn't even pass the basic test of reason in the form of
> 3rd grade mathematics plus some common sense let alone the closer scrutiny
> of science. A life of 30 - 50 years for an auto starting battery is
> ridiculous on the face of it. The positive plates corrode a bit with every
> recharge due to overvoltage and they aren't thick enough to last much
> beyond 5 years - and even that assumes essentially ideal grain structure in
> the grids due to perfect control of the casting process, plus other perfect
> conditions that simply do not exist in the commodity environment known as
> the auto starting battery industry. Nobody would pay that price for a
> battery and even so the industry couldn't control the process because they
> already have a deeply ingrained culture that says good enough is good
> enough and they've already added enough to the battery price to cover the
> expected warranty claims.
>
> The latter is why some 24-month and 36-month batteries are identical other
> than the label and the price. The added price doesn't buy added
> performance and reliability; it's to cover the cost of the added
> warranty. It's a marketing gimmick. When the batts are from the same
> mfgr, same size, same weight, but different in price and claimed life,
> that's most likely what's going on. Push hard on both ends at once and if
> both batts present equal resistance and "springiness" then you can bet on it.
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]snip]
>
> >If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them in private or in
> >this public forum. I have nothing to hide.
>
> I'd appreciate some direct answers to the points I've raised - if anyone
> else cares.
>
> Jim H
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> puffing about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know
> absolutely nothing about.
I, as well as many others on this list I'm sure, consider it bad
manners to continue this battery babble and these personal attacks on
this list. This group was specifically created for Basic Stamp
enthusiasts. I realize that you had suggested early on in this
thread that one use a stamp for your desulfator project, however this
discussion has now migrated well beyond the scope of this group. If
you wish to continue the argument then please do it elsewhere,
perhaps at:
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
That BBS is specifically geared towards the type of conversation that
you are conducting here, and is one that you had personally linked to
in one of your previous 23 posts to this list in the last 36 hours.
My advice would be to not read them. After all you can choose to ignore
if you would like. I often only read about topics that I have an
interest in.
I suppose it is better to not in any way offend anyone rather than to
enlighten folks or respond to a nasty attack that suggests I have
difficulty with 3rd grade math.
And heaven forbid anyone attempt to clear up any misunderstanding about
the usefulness of a process
Once again click on "Product information" and "Testimonials" to discover
how many have discovered how well it works
http://www.pulsetech.net/
Is there any review body for censorship prior to posting in this forum??
Or are you sort of making up suggested rules as you go along?
Perhaps you would like it if the only people that posted, only posted
material in subjects that you personally have an interest in. I'm sure
this would make for a better world for you if people did not post
"babble" about subjects you personally are not interested in.
Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most of
the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find it a
fascinating subject.
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
Although there are not many actively involved in enhancing the process.
"Ron Jeremy " wrote:
>
> > It's considered bad manners to be harrumphing about, huffing and
> > puffing about a process that you have clearly demonstrated you know
> > absolutely nothing about.
>
> I, as well as many others on this list I'm sure, consider it bad
> manners to continue this battery babble and these personal attacks on
> this list. This group was specifically created for Basic Stamp
> enthusiasts. I realize that you had suggested early on in this
> thread that one use a stamp for your desulfator project, however this
> discussion has now migrated well beyond the scope of this group. If
> you wish to continue the argument then please do it elsewhere,
> perhaps at:
>
> http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
>
> That BBS is specifically geared towards the type of conversation that
> you are conducting here, and is one that you had personally linked to
> in one of your previous 23 posts to this list in the last 36 hours.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> posted material in subjects that you personally have an interest
> in. I'm sure this would make for a better world for you if people
> did not post "babble" about subjects you personally are not
> interested in.
Last time I checked, this was the whole idea behind forming a mailing
list called "Basic Stamps," or "Chevy Corvettes," or "Useless Battery
Talk," or any other specific subject for that matter. The whole idea
is to post messages about the subject - so that people interested in
the subject - can come read material about that particular subject.
> Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most
> of the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find
> it a fascinating subject.
> http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
were completely off topic.
outperforms virtually anything on the planet when used in the
desulfation application.
AND the use of a BASIC Stamp is within the topic of this forum.
It has demonstrated to be a very potent tool in being able to desulfate
battery banks in the 12V to 24V range that are quite a few thousands Amp
Hours with a just a few small components.
Quite an elegant solution to a 100 year old problem.
I see by your handle that you are 24 years old and tend bar. I can see
where this application might not appeal to you.
Well perhaps there are others that are interested in the process now and
in the future. When these messages drift away with time, others that do
have an interest, and do a search, may find some valuable information
and links.
Be sure to post where you tend bar at. If I am ever in Chicago, I'll be
sure to stop in and buy a round [noparse]:)[/noparse]
That is if I can ever tear myself away from the lab.
"Ron Jeremy " wrote:
>
> > Perhaps you would like it if the only people that posted, only
> > posted material in subjects that you personally have an interest
> > in. I'm sure this would make for a better world for you if people
> > did not post "babble" about subjects you personally are not
> > interested in.
>
> Last time I checked, this was the whole idea behind forming a mailing
> list called "Basic Stamps," or "Chevy Corvettes," or "Useless Battery
> Talk," or any other specific subject for that matter. The whole idea
> is to post messages about the subject - so that people interested in
> the subject - can come read material about that particular subject.
>
> > Actually we attempt to discourage useless dialog at the BBS. Most
> > of the folks there have a serious interest in desulfation and find
> > it a fascinating subject.
> > http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
>
> I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> were completely off topic.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the Subject and Body
of the message will be ignored.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
has no time for questions!
Original Message
> I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> were completely off topic.
desulfator BBS.
http://pub36.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation
We simply ask that you read all previous material before asking a
question that has been asked about a zillion times.
The author of the original article is heavily involved in research and
has asked that he not be disturbed.
Do you have a problem with that?
You probably have no idea what it is like to be published and have your
email address listed on a topic that has interest worldwide.
As a minor player I generally have an email loading of 2 to 3 hours each
night. Mr. Couper used to get avalanches of mail.
Rodent wrote:
>
> Just don't write to the author -- he is very busy with secret research and
> has no time for questions!
>
>
Original Message
>
> > I take it then, from this comment that you do in fact consider this
> > thread to be 'useless dialog' and can therefore discontinue it. I'm
> > sure you would be none too happy if I showed up on the desulfation
> > BBS and started posting messages, wasting space, wasting bandwidth,
> > and filling up peoples personal mailboxes, discussing matters that
> > were completely off topic.
>
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it recycled. The dealer is required by law to accpet your dead unit
so the recycle path is there. it just costs the consumer.
some dealers sell at lower prices and charge to recycle, others add
the $5.00 and accept your old battery for 'free'
It's easy to find people who would rather save $5.00 than recycle. or
are just too lazy to go back to the store with a toxic,leaking
lead/acid weight in their trunk.
Dave
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Sorry to break up your blissful ignorance but some idiots do throw
> batteries in public dumps. This does create a health hazard for
many
> that live near them, especially the children.
>
> There are many battery drop off centers that will refuse to take the
> lead-antimony types. They do wind up in dumps. I'm not sure of the
> percentages, but it does happen and lead in the drinking water is a
fact
> of life.
<snip>
>undisputed. What appears to be in dispute is the various methods to either
>prevent or reverse it.
According to the battery makers, sulfation problems can be minimized by
keeping the battery fully charged, and by periodically equalizing the cells
with a controlled overcharge. The charger for my sailboat batteries does
this. I don't know if it works, and I probably never will. When my
deep-cycle batteries finally die (be it in 3 to 10 years), I really won't
know if my regular equalization helped or not. For all I know, if my
batteries last 10 years, it may because of the deodorant I use. I just have
no way of proving it, one way or the other, with the limited sample (that
is, one) of batteries that I have available to test.
Others (such as Don) believe that the pulse method works.
The problem for most of us is that we have no way to prove (or
disprove) the claims. The only way to prove or disprove such claims is via
controlled, scientific test. Anecdotal evidence is useful, but not nearly
as reliable, since it is not normally the result of carefully controlled
experiments, and also because most anecdotal evidence is of a positive
nature - i.e. people who got the results they wanted; people who didn't
frequently just drop the whole thing without reporting their results.
However, the whole point of the original posting was to talk about a
potential application for a Stamp. Whether or not it is a USEFUL
application for some of us is moot.
I respectfully suggest that we limit our discussions to the process, not
the politics
Larry Bradley
Orleans (Ottawa), Ontario, CANADA
[noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The proof is easy to obtain by a variety of methods.
1. Snag a car that for the first time is having a hard time starting
and attach a pulser to it. Normally within 24 hours the car will
start. Within 48 hours the car will start with ease.
2. Trickle charge an old battery for a few days to be sure it has taken
all the charge it can take and take initial SG readings. Then put a
pulser on it and note the SG readings climb on a weekly basis.
3. Have some faith that the people that took the trouble to write in
their testimonials to the pulse tech site knew what they were talking
about. You will see many stories about how they had previously had to
replace batts on a yearly or every few years and since they were
desulfating their batts many had yet to replace any of the conditioned
batts. In fact I think I spotted some testimonials from folks up your
way.
4. I could quote the folks that have written to me but I suspect the
naysayers would simply say I dreamed them up or that they were
delusional. So I didn't bother.
5. You could look up the US Army testing lab results where the testing
was done at a number of Army installations. The results of the testing
were so positive, it lead to the multi-service wide program of pulser
use in their battery maintenance programs.
And they are not claims it is fact. The process is the fruits of over
20 years of research.
Larry Bradley wrote:
>
> >That sulfation is a major cause of premature battery failure is
> >undisputed. What appears to be in dispute is the various methods to either
> >prevent or reverse it.
>
> According to the battery makers, sulfation problems can be minimized by
> keeping the battery fully charged, and by periodically equalizing the cells
> with a controlled overcharge. The charger for my sailboat batteries does
> this. I don't know if it works, and I probably never will. When my
> deep-cycle batteries finally die (be it in 3 to 10 years), I really won't
> know if my regular equalization helped or not. For all I know, if my
> batteries last 10 years, it may because of the deodorant I use. I just have
> no way of proving it, one way or the other, with the limited sample (that
> is, one) of batteries that I have available to test.
>
> Others (such as Don) believe that the pulse method works.
>
> The problem for most of us is that we have no way to prove (or
> disprove) the claims. The only way to prove or disprove such claims is via
> controlled, scientific test. Anecdotal evidence is useful, but not nearly
> as reliable, since it is not normally the result of carefully controlled
> experiments, and also because most anecdotal evidence is of a positive
> nature - i.e. people who got the results they wanted; people who didn't
> frequently just drop the whole thing without reporting their results.
>
> However, the whole point of the original posting was to talk about a
> potential application for a Stamp. Whether or not it is a USEFUL
> application for some of us is moot.
>
> I respectfully suggest that we limit our discussions to the process, not
> the politics
>
> Larry Bradley
> Orleans (Ottawa), Ontario, CANADA
>
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If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
smartdim@a... wrote:
>
> Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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I just took a battery out of my snowmobile on Saturday. It was frozen
solid and bulging at the sides like a pumpkin. Are you saying that I
can restore it to its origional condition with a pulser?
Jason
--- In basicstamps@yahoogroups.com, Don Denhardt <dondenhardt@y...>
wrote:
> Nobody is twisting your arm to read this stuff.
>
> If it bothers you, then simply ignore the topic.
>
> smartdim@a... wrote:
> >
> > Enough on the Automotive/Marine applications!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > [noparse][[/noparse]Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, just send mail to:
> > basicstamps-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > from the same email address that you subscribed. Text in the
Subject and Body of the message will be ignored.
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/