Personal computing never crossed my mind while I was slaving away at my DecWriter terminal. Who could afford the power bill for these systems. Air conditioning? That cost too much too. I would tag along while some tech in the computer room opened up the sub-floor and marvel at the maze of cables.
I'm sure that 20 years from now, we'll wonder how anyone got by with a single processor in their computer. Or those hideous, hugh, noisy desktop boxes that required that you be chained to it by primative mechanical interfaces.
okay_in_oil said...
Maybe some who read this don't know that there were functioning computers using tubes instead of transistor or transistor-based devices. I don't think that very many thought there would be such a thing as a "home" computer during those days partly because a computer required a room full of "boxes" and there weren't many who would have dedicated the space required for these things.
Ah, vacuum tubes...Powering older equipment, while keeping the house warm in the winter!·
okay_in_oil said...
In looking back on it, those were good days and computing devices were a bit of pixie dust that made life somewhat magical. I wonder what we, (or someone), will be saying about these days, twenty or thirty years down the road.
Long live it all.
Yeah, it's amazing how far things have come in such a short time.· I guess we'll just have to wait and see if we make any significant leaps in that time.· I know I have fond memories...And some of things that came and went.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
Back in the sixties, “core” memory was used and if your system had 16K of memory, you had a rather large machine.
Big Blue experimented with all sorts of ideas with one being coined the “noodle snatcher” – a drum-like device with mag-tape strips held vertically in slots around the circumference of the drum – the drum would index to the proper slot where the piece of tape would be pulled and then wrapped around a spool where the stored data would be read - - I don’t think this was a big seller.
Another device was a check router/reader which was a device that resembled the punched-card sorters of the era. The check router operated at a speed of 2000 checks per minute, (I think), and, like many of the paper/card devices of those days, would jam up every once in a while. When these jams occurred, it was like pulling pieces of wood out of the pathway to clear the jam. Of course, the checks involved in the “incident” were essentially lost. What did this device do? Well, it read the encoded print on the bottom of the check, (I think it was called “E 13G), and would total amounts against account numbers and bank routing numbers – the place I am thinking about was a Fed Reserve clearing house.
Another device from the early days was something called a “402 Accounting Machine” – something classed as an “electro-mechanical” device. The basic machine weighed 2000 pounds and was a maze of motor driven shafts, large cams, many relays and, depending on the customer’s needs and budget, a plethora of mechanical counters. Programming this device involved inserting wires with durable metal ends into a plug board that was ultimately locked into position at one end of the machine. Type bars, each with a full set of alpha and numeric characters, one type bar for each of the eighty columns of the paper width, would be set into position and would then hammer the print onto the form, at times with three or four carbon-copies. The schematic for this particular machine was thirty-six feet long and was of the “unattached” type, (where the contacts for a relay are not necessarily on the same page as the relay coil.)
I think most of us who worked for “Blue” started out on what was called “unit record” devices – key punches, verifiers, card sorters – and then ended up working on the computers of the day as they became more popular. CRT’s were unknown in those days – you relied on a bank of flashing neon lights and/or nixie tubes, (no LED’s or 7-segment displays yet), and the final output was either an invoice to be mailed out or a huge heap of paper that I truly believe nobody read - - - ever.
My era was not the real beginning of computing but it was a time where business was evolving and computers were establishing their foothold. The sixties is a decade known better for the burning of various pieces of underwear and even though this may be more entertaining, many other changes were taking place also.
To think this started with someone mentioning “paper tape” - - long live it all…..
okay_in_oil said...
Back in the sixties, “core” memory was used and if your system had 16K of memory, you had a rather large machine.
My first VIC-20 had under 6K of memory...4 point something if memory serves...
okay_in_oil said...
My era was not the real beginning of computing but it was a time where business was evolving and computers were establishing their foothold. The sixties is a decade known better for the burning of various pieces of underwear and even though this may be more entertaining, many other changes were taking place also.
To think this started with someone mentioning “paper tape” - - long live it all…..
Paper Tape (Punch Cards, etc.)...I was born in 1969, and I really got started in computers in 1980, although practically in 1982 (When I had my own VIC-20).· And to think back then I was unhappy with Tape Drives!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
Well, seeing as how i am way to young to ever fully appreciate everythign you guys have experienced (I'm only 17,) i do wish i was born earlier. Anytime i can read up on the golden era of computing i can, and i found a website all of you might appreciate. I've spent countless weeks and monthes on there, consuming everything i can.
www.textfiles.com
all sorts of old BBS textfiles, ASCII art, etc... very very cool.
Also, Linus Torvalds autobiography is a very interesting read, as it even delves into older computers (I believe he started out on a Sinclair.)
Back in 1991 I wrote my own BBS software and hired a·local ASCII/ANSI artist to do the LOGON, LOGOFF, WELCOME and MENU screens...I myself am no artist, but I do remember there being a program available later that could turn a picture into an ANSI art file.· Although this never looked as good as the original pieces of work I saw...There were also some very nice animated ANSI art screens.
How things do change...
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Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
I'm a new schooler, though not a skript kiddie. I write code, and don't talk in 1337 unless I am making fun of people who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag but think they are hackers because they have a few scripts other people wrote. I have a great respect for those who came and coded before me. My Great Grandfather worked for GM and holds patents for several early computers (including the computer that tests the autopilot on the 747 -- I wonder if they still use his or not). He has a lot pictures of some of the projects that he worked on, a lot of them used punch cards. The funny thing is that he's finally gotten back into it. He now has a website about astonomy that gets a fair amount of traffic, and sends e-mails and such. Todays technology bogles his mind, but it's still all the same stuff he was doing ages ago... Just smaller and faster.
I would have loved to seen all this stuff at the begining. I've read about Jobs, the Woz and Captin Crunch. I've read about Linus, RMS and Allen "Mad Dog" Hall. I've read about batch jobs of cards, slow modems and printer displays developing into CRTs and tradition "desktop" computers. But, I haven't seen these things in action. My first computer was a desktop (286), running MSDos. I used to program in BASICA with it, but never anything meaningful. I always thought I would teach write, teach and play music for a living... But, it turns out I have the knack to write code, or at least in comparison with my class mates at the university.
·· You are more than welcome here, as are the other younger people.· In all fairness, I myself am only 34...I got my first computers (A VIC-20 & Apple·IIc) back in 1982.· Prior to that I learned electronics from all the Radio Shack engineer notebooks, plus their 150-in-1 (Later 300-in-1) electronics kits.· Self-taught...
·· As for computers, I learned to program in BASIC first, then assembly on the 6502 & Z80, plus a few others.· But, again, in all fairness, I CANNOT program in C++...Yet alot of "kids" these days can!· I was working on Visual BASIC, but went through 3 versions before I decided I don't have much use for it at this point...I also wrote several utilities in QuickBASIC (A compiler BASIC) and PDS7.
·· So, I'm no GURU in that sense...But I spent years developing my own hardware and software, and I am still amused at the people who call themselves "c0derz" and stuff...Even in this little area I live in.· Yet I cannot seem to find any of them who can carry on an intellectual conversation (One of the reasons I like Forums like this one).· Everyone around here is so quick to talk about what 1337 hakz0rs they are, but they don't even know what BINARY IS, or how to READ it!· LOL
· The funny thing is, for a few years a real Guru mentored me on programming, and some older hardware technology (Like Vacuum Tubes)...And I have tried several times to pass my knowledge on to those who want to learn...But it is hard to find people who are willing to learn these days.· Kids seem to think they already know everything!· One kid I mentored for a couple of years compiled everything I taught him into his very own "kit" and sold it in Popular & Radio Electronics...Imagine my surprised when I saw an ad for someone selling "do-it-yourself" plans with schematics on how to program and interface Z80's with lights, relays, etc...So I ordered the plans just to see, only to find it was all copies of the schematics I gave for free to this kid.· Not only that, but before I busted him on it, I asked him to explain to me how one of the interfaces work from my schematic, and he didn't even understand...Just knew it worked with the code I provided.
· I have always welcomed tech-talk from those who want to share and explore new ideas, schematics, etc.· Everything I build nowadays that's not a job for someone else, I post freely on my website so anyone can learn and use it.· I figure it's the hobbyist way.· If it wasn't for existing code that Jon Williams wrote in the StampWorks and N&V columns, I might have never worked my way over to the BS2 from the Z80.· Many of those programs were written in such a way that you not only understood the code, but how the device worked.· So I share my findings as freely.· I am just finishing up my Digital Thermostat, which I will post the schematics and code on my website for everyone.· Enjoy!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
Personally, C++ and JAVA are fairly easy to pick up if you've worked with C structs.· Code comes easy to me, and breadboarding I can manage...· I'm scared to death of having boards printed, because I don't trust myself to have the spec right before it goes out the door.· Hardware is a weird animal to me, and I know more specs then I do actual hardware (too much book learning, not enough money to buy toys).· I suppose I'm always afraid of frying things...· code is cheap to replace, all that costs is time, componets are a different story.
Oh yeah, structures may seem easy if that's what you learned on...I'm more comfy with Assemly, although it's not practical for large applications.· That's why I had QuickBASIC, and later Visual BASIC...Well, now it's PBASIC!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
As many of you, I started out with a Timex-Sinclair that my dad and I put together from a kit. And then I was hooked!!!
I learned BASIC on the ATARI game system, remember the two 3x5 keypads that served as your 30-key keyboard? This
is also where I learned Assembly. Later we actually got the Atari 400 with a membrane keyboard, and then the Atari 800 with
soon to follow an Atari 800XL which had a "real" keyboard. I had an external 300 baud modem that I figured out how to
hack to bump it up to a 450 baud modem... A big deal back then. I was also able to reverse engineer the modem software
to the point that I basically made what came to be known as a "War-Dialer" a few years before the movie "War Games"
actually came out that featured such a device. While I was at school I would let the dialer run, dialing consecutive
number ranges with a fixed prefix, logging all of the numbers that replied as other computers so I could "visit" them manually
at a later time. (A great way to find BBS Numbers) Keep in mind... back then there was no caller ID, no such thing as a
firewall, and to add gas to a fire.... A kid like me could be dangerous!
Back then I was also into automated Morris Code..... I would search the short-wave radio band for Morris code signals, and
plug in my ATARI adapter that I made along with the software to decode the Dit-Dots and print it on the screen in readable
text. Later I figured out how to "TRANSMIT" and basically reversed the process for the ATARI program. This was a blast
for a 12 year old at the time. ....And again dangerous!
I didn't get a PC until I was a Junior in high school (1986) in 87 I got my first and only copy of QuickBasic 4.5 which
I still use today.... It's funny because occasionally I will need to generate a script for something I am currently doing at
work, and I will use QuickBasic4.5 just because it's so second nature to me, like drinking water, as opposed to using
Perl or C. I still love Assembly and over the years have figured out how to write my own assembly sub-routines that I
can call from QuickBasic4.5 for those times when I need to get something done very fast.
As far as my electronics background goes.... Well as long as I can remember I have been taking apart LOTS and LOTS of
things. For a VERY long time I only thought I could put them back together....until at some point, I'm not exactly sure when,
but something in my head clicked and I was able to actually make sense of what I was doing... as far as I can recall, this
happened about when I was 8 years old. Now the "click" could have been when I plugged that LEGO motor car into 110
that was only supposed to run on 2 D's ....because of course my Erector-Set had a nice hefty 110 motor and I thought all
motors would work just fine at 110... Voltage is Voltage right? - grin ....And then I got the 150 Projects in one ....300 in one,
and I think I stopped at the 450 projects in one kit that Radio Shack used to sell. I don't know what they have now.
I can still remember the first time a made an electro-magnet that actually worked!! ...at that time for me this was a major
challenge.
During all of this time I would mix and match Electronics with the available computer interfaces I had at my disposal, So it
only makes sense that my actions would eventually migrate to a device such as the Stamp.
Anyway for the most part my appropriate title should be.... "Self taught electronics/computer hacker and still kicking"
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Beau Schwabe - Mask Designer III
National Semiconductor Corporation
(Communication Interface Division)
500 Pinnacle Court, Suite 525
Mail Stop GA1
Norcross,GA 30071
Beau Schwabe said...
"So you want to be a hacker"
As many of you, I started out with a Timex-Sinclair that my dad and I put together from a kit. And then I was hooked!!!
Beau,
·· I see alot of parallels here...I didn't start on the Timex-Sinclair (I started on Apple & VIC 20), however I later (Around 1986) realized that the Z80 language was much better than the 6502 & 6802 languages that I had been learning, and I stuck with it.
Beau Schwabe said...
I had an external 300 baud modem that I figured out how to hack to bump it up to a 450 baud modem... A big deal back then. I was also able to reverse engineer the modem software to the point that I basically made what came to be known as a "War-Dialer" a few years before the movie "War Games" actually came out that featured such a device. While I was at school I would let the dialer run, dialing consecutive number ranges with a fixed prefix, logging all of the numbers that replied as other computers so I could "visit" them manually at a later time. (A great way to find BBS Numbers) Keep in mind... back then there was no caller ID, no such thing as a firewall, and to add gas to a fire.... A kid like me could be dangerous!
I think alot of us did the whole "War Dialer" thing...Most everyone I knew at the time had done this, as there were several programs floating around for C64 to do this.· I of course, wrote my own.· Found several Hotels once that you could log into to make/change reservations, and found that many had no password, or used something like "password" for the password.
Beau Schwabe said...
Back then I was also into automated Morris Code..... I would search the short-wave radio band for Morris code signals, and plug in my ATARI adapter that I made along with the software to decode the Dit-Dots and print it on the screen in readable text. Later I figured out how to "TRANSMIT" and basically reversed the process for the ATARI program. This was a blast for a 12 year old at the time. ....And again dangerous!
I remember Morse Code...Don't know about that Morris code though!·
Beau Schwabe said...
I didn't get a PC until I was a Junior in high school (1986) in 87 I got my first and only copy of QuickBasic 4.5 which I still use today.... It's funny because occasionally I will need to generate a script for something I am currently doing at work, and I will use QuickBasic4.5 just because it's so second nature to me, like drinking water, as opposed to using Perl or C. I still love Assembly and over the years have figured out how to write my own assembly sub-routines that I can call from QuickBasic4.5 for those times when I need to get something done very fast.
QuickBASIC is still useful for alot of "quick & dirty" things...Of course, it lacks Long Filename support.· Had you ever used PDS7?· It was also called QBx, I think...
Beau Schwabe said...
As far as my electronics background goes.... Well as long as I can remember I have been taking apart LOTS and LOTS of things. For a VERY long time I only thought I could put them back together....until at some point, I'm not exactly sure when, but something in my head clicked and I was able to actually make sense of what I was doing... as far as I can recall, this happened about when I was 8 years old. Now the "click" could have been when I plugged that LEGO motor car into 110 that was only supposed to run on 2 D's ....because of course my Erector-Set had a nice hefty 110 motor and I thought all motors would work just fine at 110... Voltage is Voltage right? - grin ....And then I got the 150 Projects in one ....300 in one, and I think I stopped at the 450 projects in one kit that Radio Shack used to sell. I don't know what they have now. I can still remember the first time a made an electro-magnet that actually worked!! ...at that time for me this was a major challenge. During all of this time I would mix and match Electronics with the available computer interfaces I had at my disposal, So it only makes sense that my actions would eventually migrate to a device such as the Stamp. Anyway for the most part my appropriate title should be.... "Self taught electronics/computer hacker and still kicking"
Hehe, oh yeah...I remember when things "clicked" with me...And Radio Shack's 150-in-1 kits and the other ones were great back in the day.· Radio Shack used to cater to the hobbyist, but they are far from that now.
I too started interfacing electronics to computers early (1984) through the VIC-20 User Port, which I had figured how to access through BASIC using the Programmer's Reference Guide (Which my school had).· Storing programs on Tape kinda sucked though!· But I couldn't afford a Disk Drive then...Of course the Commodore Disk Drives were self-contained VIC-20 computers in themselves basically, having most of the same chips!· Same CPU, VIA, etc.
Anyway, thanks for sharing!· I think all of us that share our information/background here help give others insight as to what we do, and are capable of.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
My first computer was also the Timex Sinclair.· That guy was way ahead of his time!· It ran pretty hot, so I took it apart, spread it out on a piece of plywood, and mounted a little muffin fan to keep it cool.· Found an old teletype key board so I hooked that up to the Sinclair and then I had a full size keyboard.· My next computer was the C64 with the tape drive - my wife gave me an external disk drive for Christmas and I thought I had reached the epitome of computer science.· Oh, those were the days [noparse]:)[/noparse])
My Ancient History: I started with a KIM-1 (6502, 1k Ram) played 'Hunt the Wumpus' for a while then got a COCO 6809? and yes, I did decode Microsoft Basic.. actually copied Advance Basic chip from a friend on to a cassette tape and loaded it into my upper ram from tape. Oh yeah, the COCO could fake colors on a color monitor by sending patterns of b/w lines. (ok, it was red-orange and blue green..but hey it was colors!) My first PC came free with our digitial switch. (phone co.) Took the programming/UNIX route from there, C, C++, Oracle SQL, Informix. You'll be happy to know that just a couple years ago the phone company I worked for was still polling the digital switches at 1200 baud... transported over FIBER/IP of course. (you wonder why the phone bills are so high?) I'm now happily working with Stamps and Basic again. I think I can make a Stamp C compiler tho..would be interesting to try.
Pretty much "all of the above" with some minor changes <g>...
Heathkit was my friend...built a transistor radio at age 8...they actually used to market a "lab" kit with each part in its own 1 inch high red box with its schematic symbol on the top. One would place the blocks on a lego-like board and connect them together with "mutant paper clips" and bits of wire. The best thing about it was the manual...very educational in typical Heathkit fashion.
Worked the punch cards a bit. A little time with an Interact 8080 based machine. Throw in some time with shape-tables on the Apple II, writing demos for the TRS-80 model 1, working on and selling Atari 400s (hated the keyboard) and sprite programming on the TI-99/4A.
I still have most of these machine...sigh...those were the days <g>...you know, building the machines out of the snow we used to have to walk in every day, 10 miles, uphill both ways...
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If at first you don't succeed
·· The 6809 was in at least one of the COCO models...It's been awhile, but that's where I got my 6809 assembly experience...The COCO had a weirdly arranged screen to me, after having used the C64 & C128, not to mention PCs.· I do remember the KIM-1, but I don't think I ever worked with one.· As for a C compiler for the BASIC Stamp, you could try, but the end codes would still need to be tokenized BASIC instructions for the Stamp to decode.
Tom,
·· I think I mentioned previously in this thread about Heathkit...In fact, I am saving up some money right now for an OptaScope, since my original HeathKit scope that I built from scratch died a few years back, and I couldn't save it, much less get parts for it.· On the TI-99/4A, I owned two, but never programmed the thing.· I think I got it originally because it was the first computer I ever had access to that had speech.· I had these two games for it, one called Alpiner, and one called, Parsec, and they both supported speech.· Ever heard of either game?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
·· By the way, I've been meaning to comment on your Avatar...This seems as good a place as any.· It has changed a bit over the last week...First it was upside down, the sideways, and now you've got that Windows 98 Splash Screen look going on!
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Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
I wasn't real thrilled with Alpiner...just seemed too "low tech" to me at the time. But Parsec was definitely a fave. Nothing else could match it at the time...especially for the price. It, along with the Commodore line (including the Amigas) are still a mystery of marketing...
GameMaster,
I can highly recommed the book "Hackers" as an interesting veiwpoint into the history.
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If at first you don't succeed
That was the reason my brother got the Microdrive for his Sinclair ZX Speccy....
Imagine, loading a 48KB program in less than 10 seconds...
Well, all right, he also bought it to spite the Commodore zealots
(The Original Commodore Floppy drive wasn't faster than the Cassette load on a Speccy...)
Me? I got hold of a cassette deck with variable pitch...
Reminds me...
I recently got hold of a 48K Speccy and some tapes, including 'Ultimate Lawnmover Simulator'...
It's THE ULTIMATE simulator ever!
Yeah, I got the microdrive for my Timex Sinclair 2068. They worked pretty well.
The TS1000 was a real pain because it was something like 600 baud, and many times you would get all the way to the end and if it didn't load right it just reset.
BTW I wrote a space invaders game on the 2068 with sound effect and everything totally in assembly language. Took about a year. One of the best years of my life [noparse];)[/noparse] [noparse][[/noparse]wipes away tear].
Wow, I must have missed this thread before. Enjoying reading the other stories. First of all, "real" old timers are the ones who programmed long before Altairs, etc. That isn't me though. I started on a GEAC built system in the 1969 I think. The core of which was an HP2100A box with 8K of core memory, marked-sense card reader, ASR-33 teletype with punch tape reader/writer, and Centronics loud printer. Plus unreliable cassette tape decks for booting.
Wrote some crude games in BASIC but had more fun in machine language. Didn't have an assembler - entered programs a bit at a time through the front panel of the HP. Halt cycle - P - clear display etc.
Never got into the personal computers until the 90s - was involved with mainframes. I did however have lots of old computer mags from the 70s with the Altair and Timex-Sinclair ads. If you have any of those you can make money on ebay with them.
Saw the TI Silent 700 mentioned. I remember taking one home from work and playing a golf game. The thing was heavy - like carrying your car battery around.
One ironic thing is that 30+ years after starting out on a GEAC system, I now work next door to their head office.
8008 was my first 8 bit micro. No assembler. Had to do it with a stick(pencil) to the newbies). The max memory on the 8008 was 16k and 24 input ports with 8 output ports if i recall correctly. Maybe it was 21 and 7.
By the way the person that had the asr/ksr 33 was lucky. We had to bit bang 5 unit baudot code from a model 15 and later the model 28 (both of which preceased the 33 by years.) then table translate it to ascii..
Then polly 88 altair and several others i have forgotten the names.
No, it's not annoying...If you want to see annoying,·I will find the one I have on AIM...I decided not to put it on here though...Too many complaints of headaches...It's somewhere...
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
Rick Hanson still has photos of a Club 100 brewski and pizza party posted on line, I'm embarrassed to say. www.club100.org/stories/02/feature.html. Many Tandy 100s on the table. The funny thing is, I'm to this day making memory expansions for Rick to sell to his customers who still for one reason or another are still hooked on the M100. Guenther mentioned the M100 too. It had a fabulous BASIC interpreter, and a great community of support.
You must be talking about something else than the TRS80 M-100 laptop (or the M-102) then, because if I don't remember too wrong, it just runs the usual M$ Basic.
It had a decent keyboard and a good screen, but it can't compare to my Epson HX-20 which came out the year before.
(It had 16KB RAM, 2(!!) 6301 processors running at .6MHz, built-in microcassette recorder and miniature printer.)
Incidentally, the rumour has it that the software for this computer was the last programming project that BillG himself was personally involved in.
(May explain why yje 'ADDRS' and 'SCHDL' apps are so messed up)
·· I went to tha Club 100 page you posted...WOW!· That brought back some memories...My groups were a little later in the timeline, but the scenario was just about the same.· One big difference was we had people between 13 and 83 there.· There was always a difference of opinion, and they did keep records of the meetings, as well as having events.
·· My business hosted meetings for·user groups which I myself was not part of, but did perform services for.· The groups I was involved in (TCCUG & CDAUG) were a Commodore 64 & Amiga users groups, respectively.· I think they still meet!· Even after I left the groups I was sought-after for a long time.· Of course, that all ended when I gave up Commodore completely (Commodore went out of business and left my business hanging) and went to PCs and stuck with Z80-based designs.
·· BTW, Edwards kinda reminds me of Grandpa Simpson!· At least the way he's portrayed in the story on that website!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Chris Savage
Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
·· Here's the annoying AIM Buddy Icon I was using...BTW, I am no longer using AIM for several reasons.· The first of which is it installs Adware on your computer.· Today I found and removed Viewpoint Media Player (Which I didn't install, but AIM did) and shortly after AIM itself.· The other big reason is that even when I set myself away, because I am busy, or with a customer, AOL plays full-motion Audio/Video Ads which blare out my speakers, even though I have the checkbox to disable sounds while I am away...So AIM is bye bye...
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Knight Designs 324 West Main Street P.O. Box 97 Montour Falls, NY 14865 (607) 535-6777
Comments
I'm sure that 20 years from now, we'll wonder how anyone got by with a single processor in their computer. Or those hideous, hugh, noisy desktop boxes that required that you be chained to it by primative mechanical interfaces.
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Jim
Parallax IT Dept.
Yeah, it's amazing how far things have come in such a short time.· I guess we'll just have to wait and see if we make any significant leaps in that time.· I know I have fond memories...And some of things that came and went.
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
Big Blue experimented with all sorts of ideas with one being coined the “noodle snatcher” – a drum-like device with mag-tape strips held vertically in slots around the circumference of the drum – the drum would index to the proper slot where the piece of tape would be pulled and then wrapped around a spool where the stored data would be read - - I don’t think this was a big seller.
Another device was a check router/reader which was a device that resembled the punched-card sorters of the era. The check router operated at a speed of 2000 checks per minute, (I think), and, like many of the paper/card devices of those days, would jam up every once in a while. When these jams occurred, it was like pulling pieces of wood out of the pathway to clear the jam. Of course, the checks involved in the “incident” were essentially lost. What did this device do? Well, it read the encoded print on the bottom of the check, (I think it was called “E 13G), and would total amounts against account numbers and bank routing numbers – the place I am thinking about was a Fed Reserve clearing house.
Another device from the early days was something called a “402 Accounting Machine” – something classed as an “electro-mechanical” device. The basic machine weighed 2000 pounds and was a maze of motor driven shafts, large cams, many relays and, depending on the customer’s needs and budget, a plethora of mechanical counters. Programming this device involved inserting wires with durable metal ends into a plug board that was ultimately locked into position at one end of the machine. Type bars, each with a full set of alpha and numeric characters, one type bar for each of the eighty columns of the paper width, would be set into position and would then hammer the print onto the form, at times with three or four carbon-copies. The schematic for this particular machine was thirty-six feet long and was of the “unattached” type, (where the contacts for a relay are not necessarily on the same page as the relay coil.)
I think most of us who worked for “Blue” started out on what was called “unit record” devices – key punches, verifiers, card sorters – and then ended up working on the computers of the day as they became more popular. CRT’s were unknown in those days – you relied on a bank of flashing neon lights and/or nixie tubes, (no LED’s or 7-segment displays yet), and the final output was either an invoice to be mailed out or a huge heap of paper that I truly believe nobody read - - - ever.
My era was not the real beginning of computing but it was a time where business was evolving and computers were establishing their foothold. The sixties is a decade known better for the burning of various pieces of underwear and even though this may be more entertaining, many other changes were taking place also.
To think this started with someone mentioning “paper tape” - - long live it all…..
Paper Tape (Punch Cards, etc.)...I was born in 1969, and I really got started in computers in 1980, although practically in 1982 (When I had my own VIC-20).· And to think back then I was unhappy with Tape Drives!
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
www.textfiles.com
all sorts of old BBS textfiles, ASCII art, etc... very very cool.
Also, Linus Torvalds autobiography is a very interesting read, as it even delves into older computers (I believe he started out on a Sinclair.)
Just my 2 cents [noparse]:)[/noparse]
-Chris
How things do change...
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
I would have loved to seen all this stuff at the begining. I've read about Jobs, the Woz and Captin Crunch. I've read about Linus, RMS and Allen "Mad Dog" Hall. I've read about batch jobs of cards, slow modems and printer displays developing into CRTs and tradition "desktop" computers. But, I haven't seen these things in action. My first computer was a desktop (286), running MSDos. I used to program in BASICA with it, but never anything meaningful. I always thought I would teach write, teach and play music for a living... But, it turns out I have the knack to write code, or at least in comparison with my class mates at the university.
·· You are more than welcome here, as are the other younger people.· In all fairness, I myself am only 34...I got my first computers (A VIC-20 & Apple·IIc) back in 1982.· Prior to that I learned electronics from all the Radio Shack engineer notebooks, plus their 150-in-1 (Later 300-in-1) electronics kits.· Self-taught...
·· As for computers, I learned to program in BASIC first, then assembly on the 6502 & Z80, plus a few others.· But, again, in all fairness, I CANNOT program in C++...Yet alot of "kids" these days can!· I was working on Visual BASIC, but went through 3 versions before I decided I don't have much use for it at this point...I also wrote several utilities in QuickBASIC (A compiler BASIC) and PDS7.
·· So, I'm no GURU in that sense...But I spent years developing my own hardware and software, and I am still amused at the people who call themselves "c0derz" and stuff...Even in this little area I live in.· Yet I cannot seem to find any of them who can carry on an intellectual conversation (One of the reasons I like Forums like this one).· Everyone around here is so quick to talk about what 1337 hakz0rs they are, but they don't even know what BINARY IS, or how to READ it!· LOL
· The funny thing is, for a few years a real Guru mentored me on programming, and some older hardware technology (Like Vacuum Tubes)...And I have tried several times to pass my knowledge on to those who want to learn...But it is hard to find people who are willing to learn these days.· Kids seem to think they already know everything!· One kid I mentored for a couple of years compiled everything I taught him into his very own "kit" and sold it in Popular & Radio Electronics...Imagine my surprised when I saw an ad for someone selling "do-it-yourself" plans with schematics on how to program and interface Z80's with lights, relays, etc...So I ordered the plans just to see, only to find it was all copies of the schematics I gave for free to this kid.· Not only that, but before I busted him on it, I asked him to explain to me how one of the interfaces work from my schematic, and he didn't even understand...Just knew it worked with the code I provided.
· I have always welcomed tech-talk from those who want to share and explore new ideas, schematics, etc.· Everything I build nowadays that's not a job for someone else, I post freely on my website so anyone can learn and use it.· I figure it's the hobbyist way.· If it wasn't for existing code that Jon Williams wrote in the StampWorks and N&V columns, I might have never worked my way over to the BS2 from the Z80.· Many of those programs were written in such a way that you not only understood the code, but how the device worked.· So I share my findings as freely.· I am just finishing up my Digital Thermostat, which I will post the schematics and code on my website for everyone.· Enjoy!
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
As many of you, I started out with a Timex-Sinclair that my dad and I put together from a kit. And then I was hooked!!!
I learned BASIC on the ATARI game system, remember the two 3x5 keypads that served as your 30-key keyboard? This
is also where I learned Assembly. Later we actually got the Atari 400 with a membrane keyboard, and then the Atari 800 with
soon to follow an Atari 800XL which had a "real" keyboard. I had an external 300 baud modem that I figured out how to
hack to bump it up to a 450 baud modem... A big deal back then. I was also able to reverse engineer the modem software
to the point that I basically made what came to be known as a "War-Dialer" a few years before the movie "War Games"
actually came out that featured such a device. While I was at school I would let the dialer run, dialing consecutive
number ranges with a fixed prefix, logging all of the numbers that replied as other computers so I could "visit" them manually
at a later time. (A great way to find BBS Numbers) Keep in mind... back then there was no caller ID, no such thing as a
firewall, and to add gas to a fire.... A kid like me could be dangerous!
Back then I was also into automated Morris Code..... I would search the short-wave radio band for Morris code signals, and
plug in my ATARI adapter that I made along with the software to decode the Dit-Dots and print it on the screen in readable
text. Later I figured out how to "TRANSMIT" and basically reversed the process for the ATARI program. This was a blast
for a 12 year old at the time. ....And again dangerous!
I didn't get a PC until I was a Junior in high school (1986) in 87 I got my first and only copy of QuickBasic 4.5 which
I still use today.... It's funny because occasionally I will need to generate a script for something I am currently doing at
work, and I will use QuickBasic4.5 just because it's so second nature to me, like drinking water, as opposed to using
Perl or C. I still love Assembly and over the years have figured out how to write my own assembly sub-routines that I
can call from QuickBasic4.5 for those times when I need to get something done very fast.
As far as my electronics background goes.... Well as long as I can remember I have been taking apart LOTS and LOTS of
things. For a VERY long time I only thought I could put them back together....until at some point, I'm not exactly sure when,
but something in my head clicked and I was able to actually make sense of what I was doing... as far as I can recall, this
happened about when I was 8 years old. Now the "click" could have been when I plugged that LEGO motor car into 110
that was only supposed to run on 2 D's ....because of course my Erector-Set had a nice hefty 110 motor and I thought all
motors would work just fine at 110... Voltage is Voltage right? - grin ....And then I got the 150 Projects in one ....300 in one,
and I think I stopped at the 450 projects in one kit that Radio Shack used to sell. I don't know what they have now.
I can still remember the first time a made an electro-magnet that actually worked!! ...at that time for me this was a major
challenge.
During all of this time I would mix and match Electronics with the available computer interfaces I had at my disposal, So it
only makes sense that my actions would eventually migrate to a device such as the Stamp.
Anyway for the most part my appropriate title should be.... "Self taught electronics/computer hacker and still kicking"
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Beau Schwabe - Mask Designer III
National Semiconductor Corporation
(Communication Interface Division)
500 Pinnacle Court, Suite 525
Mail Stop GA1
Norcross,GA 30071
·· I see alot of parallels here...I didn't start on the Timex-Sinclair (I started on Apple & VIC 20), however I later (Around 1986) realized that the Z80 language was much better than the 6502 & 6802 languages that I had been learning, and I stuck with it.
I think alot of us did the whole "War Dialer" thing...Most everyone I knew at the time had done this, as there were several programs floating around for C64 to do this.· I of course, wrote my own.· Found several Hotels once that you could log into to make/change reservations, and found that many had no password, or used something like "password" for the password.
I remember Morse Code...Don't know about that Morris code though!·
QuickBASIC is still useful for alot of "quick & dirty" things...Of course, it lacks Long Filename support.· Had you ever used PDS7?· It was also called QBx, I think...
Hehe, oh yeah...I remember when things "clicked" with me...And Radio Shack's 150-in-1 kits and the other ones were great back in the day.· Radio Shack used to cater to the hobbyist, but they are far from that now.
I too started interfacing electronics to computers early (1984) through the VIC-20 User Port, which I had figured how to access through BASIC using the Programmer's Reference Guide (Which my school had).· Storing programs on Tape kinda sucked though!· But I couldn't afford a Disk Drive then...Of course the Commodore Disk Drives were self-contained VIC-20 computers in themselves basically, having most of the same chips!· Same CPU, VIA, etc.
Anyway, thanks for sharing!· I think all of us that share our information/background here help give others insight as to what we do, and are capable of.
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
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Sid Weaver
TWS/RWS RF Modules
http://hometown.aol.com/newzed/index.html
·
Heathkit was my friend...built a transistor radio at age 8...they actually used to market a "lab" kit with each part in its own 1 inch high red box with its schematic symbol on the top. One would place the blocks on a lego-like board and connect them together with "mutant paper clips" and bits of wire. The best thing about it was the manual...very educational in typical Heathkit fashion.
Worked the punch cards a bit. A little time with an Interact 8080 based machine. Throw in some time with shape-tables on the Apple II, writing demos for the TRS-80 model 1, working on and selling Atari 400s (hated the keyboard) and sprite programming on the TI-99/4A.
I still have most of these machine...sigh...those were the days <g>...you know, building the machines out of the snow we used to have to walk in every day, 10 miles, uphill both ways...
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If at first you don't succeed
...you're about average...
·· The 6809 was in at least one of the COCO models...It's been awhile, but that's where I got my 6809 assembly experience...The COCO had a weirdly arranged screen to me, after having used the C64 & C128, not to mention PCs.· I do remember the KIM-1, but I don't think I ever worked with one.· As for a C compiler for the BASIC Stamp, you could try, but the end codes would still need to be tokenized BASIC instructions for the Stamp to decode.
Tom,
·· I think I mentioned previously in this thread about Heathkit...In fact, I am saving up some money right now for an OptaScope, since my original HeathKit scope that I built from scratch died a few years back, and I couldn't save it, much less get parts for it.· On the TI-99/4A, I owned two, but never programmed the thing.· I think I got it originally because it was the first computer I ever had access to that had speech.· I had these two games for it, one called Alpiner, and one called, Parsec, and they both supported speech.· Ever heard of either game?
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
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Beau Schwabe - Mask Designer III
National Semiconductor Corporation
(Communication Interface Division)
500 Pinnacle Court, Suite 525
Mail Stop GA1
Norcross,GA 30071
·· By the way, I've been meaning to comment on your Avatar...This seems as good a place as any.· It has changed a bit over the last week...First it was upside down, the sideways, and now you've got that Windows 98 Splash Screen look going on!
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
Actually you are the first person to mention anything.....
I was beginning to wonder If I was just entertaining myself.
I'm working on another idea... we'll see how it goes.... The 75x75x30K
limitation is a challenge.
Now to keep this in context with "hacking" ... (Thinking out loud) ...
I wonder if I can manually edit the size header of the file so that the
system thinks it's still valid if I exceed 30K?
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Beau Schwabe - Mask Designer III
National Semiconductor Corporation
(Communication Interface Division)
500 Pinnacle Court, Suite 525
Mail Stop GA1
Norcross,GA 30071
I wasn't real thrilled with Alpiner...just seemed too "low tech" to me at the time. But Parsec was definitely a fave. Nothing else could match it at the time...especially for the price. It, along with the Commodore line (including the Amigas) are still a mystery of marketing...
GameMaster,
I can highly recommed the book "Hackers" as an interesting veiwpoint into the history.
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If at first you don't succeed
...you're about average...
How many have known the "joy" of storing your program on cassette tape and then TRY to get them to load back in.
You have not lived untill you have tried for the 10th time to get that &$#^& tape to load.
I know all you Timex Sinclair folks know what I'm talking about.
I used to have nightmares about "eaten" cassettes.
BTW I think this post almost deserves it own forum.
Bean
Post Edited (Bean) : 9/2/2004 1:44:13 PM GMT
Imagine, loading a 48KB program in less than 10 seconds...
Well, all right, he also bought it to spite the Commodore zealots
(The Original Commodore Floppy drive wasn't faster than the Cassette load on a Speccy...)
Me? I got hold of a cassette deck with variable pitch...
Reminds me...
I recently got hold of a 48K Speccy and some tapes, including 'Ultimate Lawnmover Simulator'...
It's THE ULTIMATE simulator ever!
The TS1000 was a real pain because it was something like 600 baud, and many times you would get all the way to the end and if it didn't load right it just reset.
BTW I wrote a space invaders game on the 2068 with sound effect and everything totally in assembly language. Took about a year. One of the best years of my life [noparse];)[/noparse] [noparse][[/noparse]wipes away tear].
Bean
Wrote some crude games in BASIC but had more fun in machine language. Didn't have an assembler - entered programs a bit at a time through the front panel of the HP. Halt cycle - P - clear display etc.
Never got into the personal computers until the 90s - was involved with mainframes. I did however have lots of old computer mags from the 70s with the Altair and Timex-Sinclair ads. If you have any of those you can make money on ebay with them.
Saw the TI Silent 700 mentioned. I remember taking one home from work and playing a golf game. The thing was heavy - like carrying your car battery around.
One ironic thing is that 30+ years after starting out on a GEAC system, I now work next door to their head office.
Harry
8008 was my first 8 bit micro. No assembler. Had to do it with a stick(pencil) to the newbies). The max memory on the 8008 was 16k and 24 input ports with 8 output ports if i recall correctly. Maybe it was 21 and 7.
By the way the person that had the asr/ksr 33 was lucky. We had to bit bang 5 unit baudot code from a model 15 and later the model 28 (both of which preceased the 33 by years.) then table translate it to ascii..
Then polly 88 altair and several others i have forgotten the names.
Then the mostek z80 development board.
73
spence
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
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Tracy Allen
www.emesystems.com
Great basic?
You must be talking about something else than the TRS80 M-100 laptop (or the M-102) then, because if I don't remember too wrong, it just runs the usual M$ Basic.
It had a decent keyboard and a good screen, but it can't compare to my Epson HX-20 which came out the year before.
(It had 16KB RAM, 2(!!) 6301 processors running at .6MHz, built-in microcassette recorder and miniature printer.)
Incidentally, the rumour has it that the software for this computer was the last programming project that BillG himself was personally involved in.
(May explain why yje 'ADDRS' and 'SCHDL' apps are so messed up)
Here's what I wrote about it when I first got hold of it...
http://home.c2i.net/trygveh/english/gadgetman/laptop/tandy102.html
·· I went to tha Club 100 page you posted...WOW!· That brought back some memories...My groups were a little later in the timeline, but the scenario was just about the same.· One big difference was we had people between 13 and 83 there.· There was always a difference of opinion, and they did keep records of the meetings, as well as having events.
·· My business hosted meetings for·user groups which I myself was not part of, but did perform services for.· The groups I was involved in (TCCUG & CDAUG) were a Commodore 64 & Amiga users groups, respectively.· I think they still meet!· Even after I left the groups I was sought-after for a long time.· Of course, that all ended when I gave up Commodore completely (Commodore went out of business and left my business hanging) and went to PCs and stuck with Z80-based designs.
·· BTW, Edwards kinda reminds me of Grandpa Simpson!· At least the way he's portrayed in the story on that website!
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
·
·· Here's the annoying AIM Buddy Icon I was using...BTW, I am no longer using AIM for several reasons.· The first of which is it installs Adware on your computer.· Today I found and removed Viewpoint Media Player (Which I didn't install, but AIM did) and shortly after AIM itself.· The other big reason is that even when I set myself away, because I am busy, or with a customer, AOL plays full-motion Audio/Video Ads which blare out my speakers, even though I have the checkbox to disable sounds while I am away...So AIM is bye bye...
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Chris Savage
Knight Designs
324 West Main Street
P.O. Box 97
Montour Falls, NY 14865
(607) 535-6777
Business Page:·· http://www.knightdesigns.com
Personal Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris
Designs Page:··· http://www.lightlink.com/dream/designs