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KISS Eval board (obsolete, no longer shipping)

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  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,252

    @aaaaaaaargh said:

    @Scroungre said:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with my KISS0000 - it does NOT like to run at over 300MHz internal P2 clock. Is this a limitation of the KISS, or is something wrong over here? Everything seems to work fine up to 300MHz - at anything higher, it just crashes and does nothing.

    Maybe its the same problem I have with the KISS. I tried to use it with a 2MB sram. At higher speeds I got errors when doing write/reads to the sram. Thought it might be down to the P28-31 port problem but got no such corruption when using a different brand of P2 board at any speed. Ripped out the 25Mhz xtal as suggested elsewhere but that made no difference…

    Any further progress with this? Which SRAMs are you using? PSRAM seems pretty compelling for larger storage and good throughput streaming, but nothing like parallel connected SRAM for the lowest latency, I would suspect.

  • @hinv said:

    @aaaaaaaargh said:

    @Scroungre said:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with my KISS0000 - it does NOT like to run at over 300MHz internal P2 clock. Is this a limitation of the KISS, or is something wrong over here? Everything seems to work fine up to 300MHz - at anything higher, it just crashes and does nothing.

    Maybe its the same problem I have with the KISS. I tried to use it with a 2MB sram. At higher speeds I got errors when doing write/reads to the sram. Thought it might be down to the P28-31 port problem but got no such corruption when using a different brand of P2 board at any speed. Ripped out the 25Mhz xtal as suggested elsewhere but that made no difference…

    Any further progress with this? Which SRAMs are you using? PSRAM seems pretty compelling for larger storage and good throughput streaming, but nothing like parallel connected SRAM for the lowest latency, I would suspect.

    If it's something you only see with the KISS board and not others it might be some degraded signal integrity, or power limiting at high speeds vs other boards. A wide parallel bus transitioning at high speed such as the SRAM's address and data pins will consume a lot more IO current at high frequencies and can cause a fair bit of noise too. If you probe the power and ground pins with a scope you might see a lot more bouncing around for example. That could corrupt the transfers.

  • aaaaaaaarghaaaaaaaargh Posts: 80
    edited 2023-05-09 16:36

    @hinv said:

    @aaaaaaaargh said:

    @Scroungre said:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with my KISS0000 - it does NOT like to run at over 300MHz internal P2 clock. Is this a limitation of the KISS, or is something wrong over here? Everything seems to work fine up to 300MHz - at anything higher, it just crashes and does nothing.

    Maybe its the same problem I have with the KISS. I tried to use it with a 2MB sram. At higher speeds I got errors when doing write/reads to the sram. Thought it might be down to the P28-31 port problem but got no such corruption when using a different brand of P2 board at any speed. Ripped out the 25Mhz xtal as suggested elsewhere but that made no difference…

    Any further progress with this? Which SRAMs are you using? PSRAM seems pretty compelling for larger storage and good throughput streaming, but nothing like parallel connected SRAM for the lowest latency, I would suspect.

    Clarification: If you use other pins that P28-P31 to drive the SRAM there are no problems and the KISS board works fine with high speed SRAM

  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,252

    @aaaaaaaargh said:

    @hinv said:

    @aaaaaaaargh said:

    @Scroungre said:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with my KISS0000 - it does NOT like to run at over 300MHz internal P2 clock. Is this a limitation of the KISS, or is something wrong over here? Everything seems to work fine up to 300MHz - at anything higher, it just crashes and does nothing.

    Maybe its the same problem I have with the KISS. I tried to use it with a 2MB sram. At higher speeds I got errors when doing write/reads to the sram. Thought it might be down to the P28-31 port problem but got no such corruption when using a different brand of P2 board at any speed. Ripped out the 25Mhz xtal as suggested elsewhere but that made no difference…

    Any further progress with this? Which SRAMs are you using? PSRAM seems pretty compelling for larger storage and good throughput streaming, but nothing like parallel connected SRAM for the lowest latency, I would suspect.

    I eventually gave up on the KISS board and used Cluso's P2 Retroblade. That worked fine with SRAM on P28-31, also and the DIP layout suited me better. Only drawback is the somewhat weak power regulator that limits the maximum frequency.

    Did you start a thread for this? I'm sure I am not the only one that is interested in your experience with attached SRAMs.
    What I would like to know. How many clocks between a cog requesting the data, and the data available on the pins?
    What is the maximum clock speed you were able to get this result?
    What parts did you use? How were they connected, etc.
    Can a switcher and more capacitance be stacked on to drive more power when needed?
    What did you use the SRAM for?

  • This is the thread:
    https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/173273
    SRAM is IS61WV20488ALL
    I think maximum speed was about 275Mhz
    Pins where P0-31:
    Adress 0-20
    RAM_CE = 21
    RAM_WE = 22
    RAM_OE = 23
    Data 24-31
    Used Rogloh's SRAM Driver to drive VGA and used the rest of the ram as storage , all from flexbasic

  • @Scroungre said:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with my KISS0000 - it does NOT like to run at over 300MHz internal P2 clock. Is this a limitation of the KISS, or is something wrong over here? Everything seems to work fine up to 300MHz - at anything higher, it just crashes and does nothing.

    @aaaaaaaargh said:
    I eventually gave up on the KISS board and used Cluso's P2 Retroblade. That worked fine with SRAM on P28-31, also and the DIP layout suited me better. Only drawback is the somewhat weak power regulator that limits the maximum frequency.

    I feel sorry that you are not satisfied with the KISS boards. If you like to return them you'll get your money back. I cannot explain why it shouldn't work above 300MHz. I have ran several tests and here they worked up to 350 or 360MHz without problems. However, I've used only internal memory and an LC display. I have never used any SRAM or PSRAM. It's a four layer board with solid ground plane and good decoupling capacitor layout. The long board may be not optimal for wide parallel data busses because trace impedance and lengths are not as well matched as on square boards like the original P2 EVAL board.

    My original goal was to make some prototyping board for digital and anaogue signal processing, test equipment or motion control. These days, at least here in the forum, the only remaining applications for the P2 seem to be retrocomputing and emulation of ancient processors. While I admire some great achivements Ada and others came up with recently I have to admit that this is a completely different world for me and I can't contribute anything to it. So I think it's best to leave the field for others who can do this better than me.

    Bye

  • pik33pik33 Posts: 2,355
    edited 2023-05-09 16:18

    Not only retrocomputing

    We did several robots in our university.
    Such a commercial, or research, projects, are not suitable as forum topics. While I wrote about it, we cannot discuss this, at least until the projest ends and proper reports are done.

    As far as I know, there is more of such projects.

    The retrocomputing stuff, however, results in new drivers and code that may be used in more "industrial" environment. The USB, for example, is the game changer. Ada started it for retrocomputing gamepads and now we have a working HID USB driver

    etc, etd...

  • @ManAtWork said:
    I feel sorry that you are not satisfied with the KISS boards.

    Sorry for being unclear, I am very satisfied with my KISS board there is just that P28-P31 issue but you would only notice that in case of "wide" parallel data transfers with lots of bits toggling at the same time, and that is a niche use case. For everthing else the KISS boards are great!
    The comment about the weak power regulator refers to to Retroblade, not the KISS board, that works fine at hight clock speeds.
    Sorry about any confusion I might have caused. btw my KISS board has been in continuous production use @High MHZes for over a year and its perfect!

  • @ManAtWork said:
    I have just increased the prices (see post #1). Reasons are:

    • Inflation, increased prices for components (P2 = $17.95)
    • I have to write off 20+ boards shipped to Jim (Publison) in 2021
    • Buyers change their mind too often wasting my time

    Please remember: I don't do this for profit. If I did I had to calculate like Parallax does. The P2 Edge is still twice the price of a KISS board. I find that fair. If you don't please tell me. I'm also open for suggestments and improvements. But I won't argue about prices, payment terms or shipping any longer.

    It's not only fair. It's reasonable and still an excellent value. Mind you, you've only terminated the incredibly attractive offer that stood for so long. Hopefully it'll mean more business too.

  • Now, that I see the KISS boards have been discontinued and no longer shipping I feel even smarter than I felt at the time I placed my last order.
    Thank you for this simple, but high end product.

  • @ManAtWork said:
    Bye

    I hope this isnt your final answer, because that would be a tragedy.

    FWIW, I’ve learned more from your posts about motion control in the last 2 years than in the entirety of my previous 60 years. I REALLY hope to continue this learning process. Just saying… 👍

  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,154

    @ManAtWork said:
    My original goal was to make some prototyping board for digital and anaogue signal processing, test equipment or motion control.

    It works great for that. :)

    These days, at least here in the forum, the only remaining applications for the P2 seem to be retrocomputing and emulation of ancient processors. While I admire some great achivements Ada and others came up with recently

    That's not quite true. P2 has plenty of uses in digital and analogue signal processing, test equipment or motion control.

    I have to admit that this is a completely different world for me and I can't contribute anything to it.
    So I think it's best to leave the field for others who can do this better than me.

    I'm not following here ?
    There is a lot of tool-chain effort here, that is applicable to everything, and the USB Host and USB device work is also very widely applicable.
    Just contribute to the digital and analogue signal processing, test equipment or motion control :)

  • MicksterMickster Posts: 2,628
    edited 2023-05-10 03:14

    @ManAtWork

    Yikes, I'm planning to standardise on the KISS for machine/motion/process control. Don't care if it costs the same as the Edge.

    Nicolas, I will email you to discuss 👍

    Craig

    P.S. Concerned about Jim and ErNa. I hope they haven't succumbed to the "coincidence" that shall not be mentioned 😐

  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,743

    I'm still available and there is a bunch of KISS boards on my shelf, I'm just very busy to convince people it makes sense to think about different issues differently. The moment I succeed I'll be back and hope to contribute this or that!

  • RS_JimRS_Jim Posts: 1,757
    edited 2023-05-10 12:15

    @ManAtWork ,
    I was really looking forward to getting my new Kiss0000 board as I have ruined a few pins on my original board. I could care less about gaming.
    Jim

  • @ErNa said:
    I'm still available and there is a bunch of KISS boards on my shelf, I'm just very busy to convince people it makes sense to think about different issues differently. The moment I succeed I'll be back and hope to contribute this or that!

    Great to hear :+1:

    If my contraption actually works, I might be able to relieve you of those modules.
    Had a great chat with @ManAtWork as well.

    I'm more than a year behind right now because I decided to totally rewrite my Android stuff for the user interface.

    Same old story, ask a dev "how long is this gonna take?". You double the number and move it to the next unit of time 😁

    Craig

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