Thanks Courtney, together with Tor and banjo, I found the international posting constraints and poor local sellers a real turn-off. I was always prepared to take the risk of untracked and uninsured Mail.
The low-cost USPS First-Class Mail and First-Class Mail International have returned as Parallax shipping options.
That's certainly good, however my preference goes to Mouser for this kind of purchases, other than the very fast delivery they also take care of local taxes and customs duties (at least for Italy), so I really hope that you can make a deal with them to sell the P2-related things at a reasonable price.
Any break out board needs to be a DIP. Something that is breadboard friendly, with just the minimum of extra components on it to get the P2 to run. All I/O should be available.
It also has to be free. P2 chip on a board required to use it should cost the as a P2 chip on it's own.
Soldering tqfp packages is really easy. I've had many people look at soldering jobs on those in awe and say "you must have really good eyes" What they don't realize is, I cheat. You position the part, the tack a single pin down on the corner. Then using a magnifier, alighns the other sides. Then tack down the opposite corner. Then double check that it's aligned. One that's done, run a bead of solder down all four sides. Finally use some solder wick to wick it all off. Check for bridges with a magnifier, and your done.
Those are neat break out boards. The prices are crazy. $19 and such is a couple of times more than the chip should cost!
"Cheating" with solder is magical in the way the solder solder flows just where you want it under the effects of surface tension. Arguably soldering a 100 pin SMD package like that is easier than dealing with a hundred DIP pins.
Those were the first I came up with. I meant it as an example of what's available. You can find them for far less if you look around. The last link is actually an ok price. It's for 20 of them, so they come out to 85 cents each.
I'm definitely going to get some when they come out. I'm thinking about running a fuel injection system with one.
The low-cost USPS First-Class Mail and First-Class Mail International have returned as Parallax shipping options.
That's certainly good, however my preference goes to Mouser for this kind of purchases, other than the very fast delivery they also take care of local taxes and customs duties (at least for Italy), so I really hope that you can make a deal with them to sell the P2-related things at a reasonable price.
Digikey also started doing the same more recently, when you choose to order in EUR. (Free tax, plus free ship on over 50? EUR spend)
Good to have options. I don't think there's much those 2 distributors don't stock!
However, I agree with many about the need for a breakout/dev board that is simple and easy to utilize. I would expect to see something like the Prop BOE or Activity board with a larger breadboard or prototyping space. Do not restrict the size to the typical 3x4 format. Versatility comes first, not form factor. The goal is sales and use, not conforming to an old standard.
All the activity Boards have way too small a prototyping area. Plug in a level translator and you've filled it up.
"Versatility comes first, not form factor. The goal is sales and use, not conforming to an old standard."
The low-cost USPS First-Class Mail and First-Class Mail International have returned as Parallax shipping options.
That's certainly good, however my preference goes to Mouser for this kind of purchases, other than the very fast delivery they also take care of local taxes and customs duties (at least for Italy), so I really hope that you can make a deal with them to sell the P2-related things at a reasonable price.
Digikey also started doing the same more recently, when you choose to order in EUR. (Free tax, plus free ship on over 50? EUR spend)
Good to have options. I don't think there's much those 2 distributors don't stock!
In the US digikey will ship small light weight (under 20oz) orders by USPS first class. Comes to around 3.50 or so.
I am hoping for a standard module(s) with nothing but power and USB "in" and a standardized "blade" connector out... a connector that mates with a receptacle, which is fairly easy to handle and solder onto a pcb. That way to get a P2 with a wide range of breakout boards, it is a simple matter to use the same receptacle and wire them up slightly differently. Creating custom pcbs would be a lot simpler and open to a much wider audience (such as yours truly:)
Making a 32 pin DIP form factor similar to the current P1(as Phil has suggested) would be a piece of cake... although not identical.
I really like the size of the breakout board on the Activity Board.
I enjoy trying to see how much I can squeeze into the two sided ezpz adapter board that has the same form factor as the break out board... can't remember the product name right now:) I am usually looking for the smallest form factor possible... and when fully utilized, the Activity Board is just about perfect.
The low-cost USPS First-Class Mail and First-Class Mail International have returned as Parallax shipping options.
That's certainly good, however my preference goes to Mouser for this kind of purchases, other than the very fast delivery they also take care of local taxes and customs duties (at least for Italy), so I really hope that you can make a deal with them to sell the P2-related things at a reasonable price.
Digikey also started doing the same more recently, when you choose to order in EUR. (Free tax, plus free ship on over 50? EUR spend)
Good to have options. I don't think there's much those 2 distributors don't stock!
In the US digikey will ship small light weight orders by USPS first class. Comes to around 3.50 or so.
Any proto board will have to have pads to connect the P2's center ground/heat-spreader pad. None of the Amazon offerings have this.
-Phil
If you search Google, there are some with the heat spreader. There are also some with nothing in the middle at all. A few minutes with a drill and some copper foil would solve it. Just drill the center out completely and press or epoxy in a copper disk. Problem solved.
But if you search you can find the right ones. I suspect that parallax will have some nice break out boards available anyway. Even if they dont, it won't take much to make one in eagle or kicad. And once someone does that and shares the designs,anyone can have them made. There's places that make boards dirt cheap these days.
I'm also slightly very concerned about the apparent lack of interest in the P2 from elsewhere in Parallax, especially regarding toolchains/compilers/programmers/debuggers etc.
I'm also slightly very concerned about the apparent lack of interest in the P2 from elsewhere in Parallax, especially regarding toolchains/compilers/programmers/debuggers etc.
I do understand what you mean by "too far removed" as I tend to think of the current P2 as more of a P5 perhaps. The real P2 would be more like the P1, except with more memory and I/O. But Parallax have limited resources and the P2 is very much largely the effort of just one person, Chip.
As for the seeming lack of interest I would put that down more to the fact that P2/P5 has been a long time coming and there have been many false starts with the versions in-between so that most are holding off. But only holding off, not running off. Those development tools have been and are in the making and so will spring out the door before you know it with more to follow. A lot of complexities of the P2 will be hidden in those tools so that we can just delight in working with the P2.
I will certainly start with not only one and as I can not use all of those myself, a great deal I will give away to those, interested in doing some research in climate change, that is, build a versatile weather station with internet access. Just to compensate a little the erosion of funding NASA's corresponding projects.
The current P2 is too far removed from being an upgrade of the P1. And too far removed from my wish list...
I'm also slightly very concerned about the apparent lack of interest in the P2 from elsewhere in Parallax, especially regarding toolchains/compilers/programmers/debuggers etc.
If what you really want is a Cortex M4, you ought to buy a Cortex M4. There are toolchains, compilers, programmers, and debuggers galore.
I would buy one, or perhaps two to use together on a board, if Chip implemented a way for the bus to be shared. I always wanted a 16 core system. It will be good for calculating prime numbers (not for mining, though).
Since there are only a couple of people (Chip, Peter, myself, and perhaps Brian) actively testing out the P2 FPGA code now, who is actually going to buy and test/use a real P2?
If I have missed anyone currently testing a P2, let me know here
I'm also slightly very concerned about the apparent lack of interest in the P2 from elsewhere in Parallax, especially regarding toolchains/compilers/programmers/debuggers etc.
Not sure what you're getting at in regards to the last point, but I suppose you're suggesting concern that other Parallax staff haven't gotten involved in the tool development yet. This is true - the reason is that we've had false starts in this direction before and until we have working chips there's little sense in abandoning the business model that has made the P2 possible: education, specifically robots. If we turned our key team members to P2 software at this stage we wouldn't have the very tools our educational customers expect from us in the Fall (offline BlocklyProp, a new Chromebook release, etc).
Our attention will turn when the time is right, but not a minute before (except for planning, scheduling, and core needs Chip will have).
Not sure what you're getting at in regards to the last point, but I suppose you're suggesting concern that other Parallax staff haven't gotten involved in the tool development yet. This is true - the reason is that we've had false starts in this direction before and until we have working chips there's little sense in abandoning the business model that has made the P2 possible: education, specifically robots. If we turned our key team members to P2 software at this stage we wouldn't have the very tools our educational customers expect from us in the Fall (offline BlocklyProp, a new Chromebook release, etc).
Our attention will turn when the time is right, but not a minute before (except for planning, scheduling, and core needs Chip will have).
Ken Gracey
Be grateful you sell chips and not chicken. Customers will always be disgruntled and disparaging if they feel slighted. It simply means you have customers who are interested
Your explanation Ken is what I thought would be and would have to be the case for any business that is serious about staying in business. You can hope that your chickens will hatch, but you can't count on them, so it's important to make sure of the "bird in the hand". Parallax has no need to prove itself with its excellent track record and I don't think there are too many small companies that are designing such advanced chips to attract such "interest"!
Your explanation Ken is what I thought would be and would have to be the case for any business that is serious about staying in business. You can hope that your chickens will hatch, but you can't count on them, so it's important to make sure of the "bird in the hand". Parallax has no need to prove itself with its excellent track record and I don't think there are too many small companies that are designing such advanced chips to attract such "interest"!
Comments
Thanks Courtney, together with Tor and banjo, I found the international posting constraints and poor local sellers a real turn-off. I was always prepared to take the risk of untracked and uninsured Mail.
That's certainly good, however my preference goes to Mouser for this kind of purchases, other than the very fast delivery they also take care of local taxes and customs duties (at least for Italy), so I really hope that you can make a deal with them to sell the P2-related things at a reasonable price.
They make boards that do that. https://www.amazon.com/Proto-Advantage-TQFP-100-DIP-100-Adapter-pitch/dp/B00JU3JAKE
Soldering tqfp packages is really easy. I've had many people look at soldering jobs on those in awe and say "you must have really good eyes" What they don't realize is, I cheat. You position the part, the tack a single pin down on the corner. Then using a magnifier, alighns the other sides. Then tack down the opposite corner. Then double check that it's aligned. One that's done, run a bead of solder down all four sides. Finally use some solder wick to wick it all off. Check for bridges with a magnifier, and your done.
Or better still,
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B002USY09W/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1526184611&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=tqfp+100+break+out&dpPl=1&dpID=61JHiOCAOYL&ref=plSrch
Or
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00O9YXTLU/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1526184579&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=tqfp+100&dpPl=1&dpID=51NGZdzWXnL&ref=plSrch
Put female headers on them, then connect your leads just like you connect to the breadboard.
-Phil
Those are neat break out boards. The prices are crazy. $19 and such is a couple of times more than the chip should cost!
"Cheating" with solder is magical in the way the solder solder flows just where you want it under the effects of surface tension. Arguably soldering a 100 pin SMD package like that is easier than dealing with a hundred DIP pins.
I'm definitely going to get some when they come out. I'm thinking about running a fuel injection system with one.
Digikey also started doing the same more recently, when you choose to order in EUR. (Free tax, plus free ship on over 50? EUR spend)
Good to have options. I don't think there's much those 2 distributors don't stock!
All the activity Boards have way too small a prototyping area. Plug in a level translator and you've filled it up.
"Versatility comes first, not form factor. The goal is sales and use, not conforming to an old standard."
I've always been fully OK with that. Never lost a package though, from Parallax or anyone else when shipping first class international from the US.
In the US digikey will ship small light weight (under 20oz) orders by USPS first class. Comes to around 3.50 or so.
-Phil
I am hoping for a standard module(s) with nothing but power and USB "in" and a standardized "blade" connector out... a connector that mates with a receptacle, which is fairly easy to handle and solder onto a pcb. That way to get a P2 with a wide range of breakout boards, it is a simple matter to use the same receptacle and wire them up slightly differently. Creating custom pcbs would be a lot simpler and open to a much wider audience (such as yours truly:)
Making a 32 pin DIP form factor similar to the current P1(as Phil has suggested) would be a piece of cake... although not identical.
I really like the size of the breakout board on the Activity Board.
I enjoy trying to see how much I can squeeze into the two sided ezpz adapter board that has the same form factor as the break out board... can't remember the product name right now:) I am usually looking for the smallest form factor possible... and when fully utilized, the Activity Board is just about perfect.
In the US digikey will ship small light weight orders by USPS first class. Comes to around 3.50 or so.
If you search Google, there are some with the heat spreader. There are also some with nothing in the middle at all. A few minutes with a drill and some copper foil would solve it. Just drill the center out completely and press or epoxy in a copper disk. Problem solved.
But if you search you can find the right ones. I suspect that parallax will have some nice break out boards available anyway. Even if they dont, it won't take much to make one in eagle or kicad. And once someone does that and shares the designs,anyone can have them made. There's places that make boards dirt cheap these days.
Probably not me. Certainly not for any commercial use.
The current P2 is too far removed from being an upgrade of the P1. And too far removed from my wish list in this post...
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/155709/the-parallax-chip-i-really-want#latest
I'm also slightly very concerned about the apparent lack of interest in the P2 from elsewhere in Parallax, especially regarding toolchains/compilers/programmers/debuggers etc.
I do understand what you mean by "too far removed" as I tend to think of the current P2 as more of a P5 perhaps. The real P2 would be more like the P1, except with more memory and I/O. But Parallax have limited resources and the P2 is very much largely the effort of just one person, Chip.
As for the seeming lack of interest I would put that down more to the fact that P2/P5 has been a long time coming and there have been many false starts with the versions in-between so that most are holding off. But only holding off, not running off. Those development tools have been and are in the making and so will spring out the door before you know it with more to follow. A lot of complexities of the P2 will be hidden in those tools so that we can just delight in working with the P2.
Not sure what you're getting at in regards to the last point, but I suppose you're suggesting concern that other Parallax staff haven't gotten involved in the tool development yet. This is true - the reason is that we've had false starts in this direction before and until we have working chips there's little sense in abandoning the business model that has made the P2 possible: education, specifically robots. If we turned our key team members to P2 software at this stage we wouldn't have the very tools our educational customers expect from us in the Fall (offline BlocklyProp, a new Chromebook release, etc).
Our attention will turn when the time is right, but not a minute before (except for planning, scheduling, and core needs Chip will have).
Ken Gracey
Be grateful you sell chips and not chicken. Customers will always be disgruntled and disparaging if they feel slighted. It simply means you have customers who are interested
Your explanation Ken is what I thought would be and would have to be the case for any business that is serious about staying in business. You can hope that your chickens
Thank you. Chips over chickens, any day.
We understand that Parallax needs to concentrate on its' core business. Otherwise there would be no P2 as that's what's paying the bills.
I am disappointed in the forum members, and I am not the only one. There is very little testing or experimenting going on with the P2.
We'll hopefully have limited silicon in around 4 months. Time to get cracking guys!!!