I am disappointed in the forum members, and I am not the only one. There is very little testing or experimenting going on with the P2.
I'm sure it feels like that Ray, but I don't see it quite the same way. It was quite the moving (flying at times) target keeping up with P2 development, let alone testing. You and Peter did a great job packing stuff in towards the end there.
The main thing from here is to make it easier to engage and develop with.
I'm very grateful to the fact, that you guys brought it to an end. And if we finally have working silicon, that leads to many followers around the globe working together to pull down the walls around ARM or similar and C or similar to the advantage of P and Tachyon, I will recommend Chip for the Nobel Peace Prize. And he will take that prize as the acting president of this pieceful community.
... I am disappointed in the forum members, and I am not the only one. There is very little testing or experimenting going on with the P2. We'll hopefully have limited silicon in around 4 months. Time to get cracking guys!!!
Your comment is disappointing. "P2 Silicon" has been talked about for years as being "nearly there", so that's not a valid point for expecting more involvement. Also, membership to these forums does not require any involvement to the advancement of Parallax products under development. I can't even talk to my colleagues anymore about P2 because the question of "when will it be out" is still unanswerable. So, I continue to make projects and products with the P1 or other appropriate micros. To expect time and money of forum members for the development of P2 is, in all honesty, ridiculous.
On the flip side, I wholeheartedly agree with Ken's statements about Parallax's focus. I think the focus on BlocklyProp and the education market is crucial to Parallax's overall success and I would not want Parallax to shift focus to P2 development. When the P2 exists in usable form, then and only then, should Parallax begin determining the level of effort that needs to be re-focused. It's very clear that the current efforts of Parallax are benefiting all of it's customers. Shifting more focus to the P2 right now would greatly harm Parallax.
To expect time and money of forum members for the development of P2 is, in all honesty, ridiculous.
Aren't Peter and Ray just forum members too? Haven't they devoted a whole lot of time and treasure to this project? Doesn't a better P2 benefit us all?
OTOH, as Tubular has pointed out, it has been a rapidly moving few weeks. I'm dubious that any reasonable amount of effort in such short order would get me and my DE0 to the point we'd be contributing anything meaningful. Still, just as soon as the latest nano code is functional (if Chip will assent to Peter's request), we will get to work exploring our limited subset of the P2. It's a perfect opportunity to write TAQOZ code because of its excellent code density and our limited storage.
To expect time and money of forum members for the development of P2 is, in all honesty, ridiculous.
Aren't Peter and Ray just forum members too? Haven't they devoted a whole lot of time and treasure to this project?
OTOH, as Tubular has pointed out, it has been a rapidly moving few weeks. I'm dubious that any reasonable amount of effort in such short order would get me and my DE0 to the point we'd be contributing anything meaningful. Still, just as soon as the latest nano code is functional (if Chip will assent to Peter's request), we will get to work exploring our limited subset of the P2. It's a perfect opportunity to write TAQOZ code because of its excellent code density and our limited storage.
I think the biggest things that needed testing recently were related to booting from SD cards and I don't even have an SD card wired to my Prop123-A9 board. In fact, I never thought it was all that important to support booting from an SD card anyway. A SPI flash chip should be fine.
Aren't Peter and Ray just forum members too? Haven't they devoted a whole lot of time and treasure to this project? Doesn't a better P2 benefit us all?
Yes, but they both have a personal passion and desire to be directly involved with the development of P2. My hat's off to them for that level of support, but their involvement has nothing to do with being a forum member which was my point.
I am not sure if a successful P2 will have any benefit for me, unless it increases Parallax's revenue streams to better support their other products. I utilize the P1 for all of my needs and I am also using it to learn C and BlocklyProp for my daughter. I have no plans to ever touch a P2 as my needs apart from a P1 are much better suited to an RPi or ESP32. The arguments for a market for the P2 are not in my agenda for projects/products. And, from what I have seen on this thread and a few other P2 threads, I would estimate that less than 15% of forum members have "real" interest in P2.
Who of us will buy? The success of P2 is a question of statistics. Let the forum have 1000 contributors, a single Prop can hold everyone busy over years. If the average user buys 100 Props, this will mean: 10.000 sold or about 100.000 revenue. That shows: it is not the average user, who creates success, but the few, that develop a key application and can affort, not to do, after completion of development, migration to a cheap, optimized system on chip processor. The big advantage of the propeller is the ubiquitous presence of analog input and output as well as the deep thinking smart pins (when compared to other P's) and so we need to find an application that makes use of given resources and can find a large market. I believe, 3d-printing in one or another form is such a market, because optimized motion control and less vibration is a key to print finer structures faster. But that is just a gut feeling. Maybe it will be possible to create a voice recognition system that can talk to your spouse while you optimize the propeller. That will be a killer application, at least it will kill many relation chips.
I am disappointed with those who continually pushed their changes, but offered nothing in return. We wanted some testers to validate the ROM code in the final weeks and there was almost deathly silence! I even asked about testing SD code on a P1. Except for the why doesn't it do this and that. Seems the handful of testers are in Oz. And the most vocal don't even have an FPGA board, and possibly don't even have a P1. 'Nuf said.
It is sort of funny - at least to me - that after years of development and WAY to much cooks trying to steer the P2 into THEIR direction, multiple attempts of Parallax to NOT include any more future input where made and you now are complaining because in the last two or three weeks of un-controlled, un-planned and un-managed furious development to get mostly un-tested code done in the last hours before final date of onsemi, you are complaining about to less testing.
This is - to cite Groucho - the most ridiculous thing I ever have seen...
This is - to cite Groucho - the most ridiculous thing I ever have seen...
really?
Mike
While it is true that Cluso may have been as a typical Aussie would, stirring the pot to see what floats to the surface, it is not as a hands in his pockets heckler. Some may be aware of the non-work related stresses that Chip has been going through lately, all when his time and focus is needed with OnSemi and finalizing P2. This is the time when we all need to chip in for Chip, to help him out, and thereby help ourselves out. We are not obligated to do that, but if we are as interested as we say we are, then wouldn't that just be the natural course, to the best of our abilities and circumstances? Of course.
Now, rather than criticizing what I regard as critique, take it as it is meant to be, a message to rouse fellow forumistas to action, at the time when action is needed. If we are not interested or can't be bothered then "keep quiet" so the rest of us can get the job done without more suggestions and criticisms. Some of us may also be in unfortunate circumstances and willing but unable to help, fair enough, we are all volunteers, keep the faith.
I have been as disgruntled at the drawn out development and wasted time as anyone here, so I totally understand how you feel, but how we feel should not get in the way when we are needed. Just roll up your sleeves and get stuck into it. Chip is in labor, about to give birth to P2. If we can't assist then at least we can wait expectantly out in the foyer in support of Chip. Chip Chip Hooray! Chip Chip Hooray!
Guys, no need for anyone to take offense to anything here.
Many of you have made great inputs to the Prop2 project over the last 12 years. There are many neat features in the chip that I would never have thought of, myself, that were proposed by you guys. Probably a hundred of them were implemented and subsequently refined, so that they each fit nicely into the overall design.
Jmg has probably never even run the Prop2 on an FPGA board, but for whatever reason, he's made many suggestions that have improved, even shaped, the design. Different people have brought different things to the effort at different times.
I'm glad you've all stayed around over this drawn-out process. No other chip out there has been 12 years in the making, but this one might bring something surprisingly fresh to the market, despite the insane gestation period.
... There are many neat features in the chip that I would never have thought of, myself, that were proposed by you guys. ...
The cross-point switch for speeding up HubRAM bandwidth, the "Egg-beater", I would not have thought viable. I'm guessing someone had some hard stats on that idea.
And the most vocal don't even have an FPGA board, and possibly don't even have a P1. 'Nuf said.
Not sure who you had in mind but, to establish my credentials, here is a picture of a pyrotechnics firing system I designed which uses a P1 to do all the user interface stuff. The venue in the background is the Royal Albert Hall in London. And the second picture shows the system doing its thing.
And the most vocal don't even have an FPGA board, and possibly don't even have a P1. 'Nuf said.
Not sure who you had in mind but, to establish my credentials, here is a picture of a pyrotechnics firing system I designed which uses a P1 to do all the user interface stuff. The venue in the background is the Royal Albert Hall in London. And the second picture shows the system doing its thing.
Nice, we always like to see what our fellow forumistas have been up to. Ummm, is the Royal Albert Hall still standing?
That means, the firework didn't work, otherwise we would now say, make the royal albert hall great again. And we could offer steela and aluminum. By the way: I didn't realize that connection layers on chips are made from aluminum, so tariffs indeed are a danger for the Prop fabrication. How much aluminum is used?
That means, the firework didn't work, otherwise we would now say, make the royal albert hall great again. And we could offer steela and aluminum. By the way: I didn't realize that connection layers on chips are made from aluminum, so tariffs indeed are a danger for the Prop fabrication. How much aluminum is used?
Probably so little as to be considered microscopic when compared to most other uses for aluminum.
I think I would be interested to purchasing one or two but naturally on some form of board, like some of education/demo board.
I'm no good with soldering and would prefer if it came with headers already fitted.
I'm just a ley - hobbyist with very little electrical/electronic skills.
I enjoy the programming.
I have purchased a project board and a few propeller 1's but never got beyond the demo vga sample lol
And the most vocal don't even have an FPGA board, and possibly don't even have a P1. 'Nuf said.
Not sure who you had in mind but, to establish my credentials, here is a picture of a pyrotechnics firing system I designed which uses a P1 to do all the user interface stuff. The venue in the background is the Royal Albert Hall in London. And the second picture shows the system doing its thing.
Thanks for the info. It's nice to see what some are using the P1 for.
BTW just booked flights to visit our daughter and her family in August. She lives in Surrey.
I stopped bothering with P2 FPGA mainly because of the constant state of flux it was in and I honestly just couldn't keep up with it all.
I still develop on P1 and we have several boards that I use in my business.
I've been looking at ARM more closely just recently as they fit the application better than P1 but I don't care much for C, I can do it but it just doesn't flow for me.
It's great news that P2 has been finalised and I look forward to getting a real one to play with and maybe developing some new stuff in the future.
I really want to try P2
I have used for several P1 project, it has allowed me great control and simple code.
With ARM, I lose a lot of time.
When can we enjoy P2 in silicon?
A greeting from Spain.
I really want to try P2
I have used for several P1 project, it has allowed me great control and simple code.
With ARM, I lose a lot of time.
When can we enjoy P2 in silicon?
A greeting from Spain.
We will have prototypes back in September. If it works, we will get more dice packaged, so that we can get people started.
... I am disappointed in the forum members, and I am not the only one. There is very little testing or experimenting going on with the P2. We'll hopefully have limited silicon in around 4 months. Time to get cracking guys!!!
Your comment is disappointing. "P2 Silicon" has been talked about for years as being "nearly there", so that's not a valid point for expecting more involvement. Also, membership to these forums does not require any involvement to the advancement of Parallax products under development. I can't even talk to my colleagues anymore about P2 because the question of "when will it be out" is still unanswerable. So, I continue to make projects and products with the P1 or other appropriate micros. To expect time and money of forum members for the development of P2 is, in all honesty, ridiculous.
On the flip side, I wholeheartedly agree with Ken's statements about Parallax's focus. I think the focus on BlocklyProp and the education market is crucial to Parallax's overall success and I would not want Parallax to shift focus to P2 development. When the P2 exists in usable form, then and only then, should Parallax begin determining the level of effort that needs to be re-focused. It's very clear that the current efforts of Parallax are benefiting all of it's customers. Shifting more focus to the P2 right now would greatly harm Parallax.
Honestly, my impression was exactly the opposite. I was surprised to see people who do not get paid for it providing valuable contributions to a commercial product. You
And the most vocal don't even have an FPGA board, and possibly don't even have a P1. 'Nuf said.
Not sure who you had in mind but, to establish my credentials, here is a picture of a pyrotechnics firing system I designed which uses a P1 to do all the user interface stuff. The venue in the background is the Royal Albert Hall in London. And the second picture shows the system doing its thing.
Nice, we always like to see what our fellow forumistas have been up to. Ummm, is the Royal Albert Hall still standing?
Now he knows how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall . . .
Comments
I'm sure it feels like that Ray, but I don't see it quite the same way. It was quite the moving (flying at times) target keeping up with P2 development, let alone testing. You and Peter did a great job packing stuff in towards the end there.
The main thing from here is to make it easier to engage and develop with.
OK. Maybe I can help.
But I know basically nothing about the hardware and software used to emulate the P2.
What would it take to do testing of the P2 from ground zero? Hardware and software, including costs.
Your comment is disappointing. "P2 Silicon" has been talked about for years as being "nearly there", so that's not a valid point for expecting more involvement. Also, membership to these forums does not require any involvement to the advancement of Parallax products under development. I can't even talk to my colleagues anymore about P2 because the question of "when will it be out" is still unanswerable. So, I continue to make projects and products with the P1 or other appropriate micros. To expect time and money of forum members for the development of P2 is, in all honesty, ridiculous.
On the flip side, I wholeheartedly agree with Ken's statements about Parallax's focus. I think the focus on BlocklyProp and the education market is crucial to Parallax's overall success and I would not want Parallax to shift focus to P2 development. When the P2 exists in usable form, then and only then, should Parallax begin determining the level of effort that needs to be re-focused. It's very clear that the current efforts of Parallax are benefiting all of it's customers. Shifting more focus to the P2 right now would greatly harm Parallax.
OTOH, as Tubular has pointed out, it has been a rapidly moving few weeks. I'm dubious that any reasonable amount of effort in such short order would get me and my DE0 to the point we'd be contributing anything meaningful. Still, just as soon as the latest nano code is functional (if Chip will assent to Peter's request), we will get to work exploring our limited subset of the P2. It's a perfect opportunity to write TAQOZ code because of its excellent code density and our limited storage.
Yes, but they both have a personal passion and desire to be directly involved with the development of P2. My hat's off to them for that level of support, but their involvement has nothing to do with being a forum member which was my point.
I am not sure if a successful P2 will have any benefit for me, unless it increases Parallax's revenue streams to better support their other products. I utilize the P1 for all of my needs and I am also using it to learn C and BlocklyProp for my daughter. I have no plans to ever touch a P2 as my needs apart from a P1 are much better suited to an RPi or ESP32. The arguments for a market for the P2 are not in my agenda for projects/products. And, from what I have seen on this thread and a few other P2 threads, I would estimate that less than 15% of forum members have "real" interest in P2.
Let's say I got enough bonus points for a sweet vacation almost anywhere in the world kind of tough.
Did want to test ROM, may still. Didnt want to complicate the discussion. Stayed mostly quiet. The vision is good, and the features relevant, useful.
The P2 is 'frozen', and the docs are continually updated in the first post here :
https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/162298/prop2-fpga-files-updated-29-may-2018-final-version-32i/p1
It is sort of funny - at least to me - that after years of development and WAY to much cooks trying to steer the P2 into THEIR direction, multiple attempts of Parallax to NOT include any more future input where made and you now are complaining because in the last two or three weeks of un-controlled, un-planned and un-managed furious development to get mostly un-tested code done in the last hours before final date of onsemi, you are complaining about to less testing.
This is - to cite Groucho - the most ridiculous thing I ever have seen...
really?
Mike
While it is true that Cluso may have been as a typical Aussie would, stirring the pot to see what floats to the surface, it is not as a hands in his pockets heckler. Some may be aware of the non-work related stresses that Chip has been going through lately, all when his time and focus is needed with OnSemi and finalizing P2. This is the time when we all need to chip in for Chip, to help him out, and thereby help ourselves out. We are not obligated to do that, but if we are as interested as we say we are, then wouldn't that just be the natural course, to the best of our abilities and circumstances? Of course.
Now, rather than criticizing what I regard as critique, take it as it is meant to be, a message to rouse fellow forumistas to action, at the time when action is needed. If we are not interested or can't be bothered then "keep quiet" so the rest of us can get the job done without more suggestions and criticisms. Some of us may also be in unfortunate circumstances and willing but unable to help, fair enough, we are all volunteers, keep the faith.
I have been as disgruntled at the drawn out development and wasted time as anyone here, so I totally understand how you feel, but how we feel should not get in the way when we are needed. Just roll up your sleeves and get stuck into it. Chip is in labor, about to give birth to P2. If we can't assist then at least we can wait expectantly out in the foyer in support of Chip. Chip Chip Hooray! Chip Chip Hooray!
Many of you have made great inputs to the Prop2 project over the last 12 years. There are many neat features in the chip that I would never have thought of, myself, that were proposed by you guys. Probably a hundred of them were implemented and subsequently refined, so that they each fit nicely into the overall design.
Jmg has probably never even run the Prop2 on an FPGA board, but for whatever reason, he's made many suggestions that have improved, even shaped, the design. Different people have brought different things to the effort at different times.
I'm glad you've all stayed around over this drawn-out process. No other chip out there has been 12 years in the making, but this one might bring something surprisingly fresh to the market, despite the insane gestation period.
With me, its just timing. Got a really heavy lift right now. Not what I signed up for either. The way of startups.
Bummer too, the final push looks good, does need a bit more testing IMHO.
I do believe strongly in what we all contributed to. This is a great design, and like P1, is going to do way more than designed for.
Good.
And Chip, thank you. I know you had a vision on this, and welcoming us all along for the ride is just great.
The cross-point switch for speeding up HubRAM bandwidth, the "Egg-beater", I would not have thought viable. I'm guessing someone had some hard stats on that idea.
Not sure who you had in mind but, to establish my credentials, here is a picture of a pyrotechnics firing system I designed which uses a P1 to do all the user interface stuff. The venue in the background is the Royal Albert Hall in London. And the second picture shows the system doing its thing.
Nice, we always like to see what our fellow forumistas have been up to. Ummm, is the Royal Albert Hall still standing?
I was there again on Saturday and it was when I left!
Probably so little as to be considered microscopic when compared to most other uses for aluminum.
I'm no good with soldering and would prefer if it came with headers already fitted.
I'm just a ley - hobbyist with very little electrical/electronic skills.
I enjoy the programming.
I have purchased a project board and a few propeller 1's but never got beyond the demo vga sample lol
BTW just booked flights to visit our daughter and her family in August. She lives in Surrey.
I still develop on P1 and we have several boards that I use in my business.
I've been looking at ARM more closely just recently as they fit the application better than P1 but I don't care much for C, I can do it but it just doesn't flow for me.
It's great news that P2 has been finalised and I look forward to getting a real one to play with and maybe developing some new stuff in the future.
Keep up the good work guys!
I have used for several P1 project, it has allowed me great control and simple code.
With ARM, I lose a lot of time.
When can we enjoy P2 in silicon?
A greeting from Spain.
We will have prototypes back in September. If it works, we will get more dice packaged, so that we can get people started.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=jVO8sUrs-Pw
Honestly, my impression was exactly the opposite. I was surprised to see people who do not get paid for it providing valuable contributions to a commercial product. You
Now he knows how many holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall . . .
just WOW,
twenty years have gone so fast...
thank you cool, song'
Mike