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Need tips on soldering

whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
edited 2014-08-12 12:47 in General Discussion
I could really use some tips on soldering. I had a great little battery operated one with a fine point(talking about solder iron) ?I found it pretty good at not accidentally joining pins together and just getting the right amount of metal on a pin.

but ive bought a cheap iron off ebay and soldering headers to the quickstart board was hard. the tip is pretty large, I think standard size but larger than the unit I used to have. It also gets very hot quickly so I pull the cord from the socket at times then plug back in.

one way of soldering the pins was to melt the solder onto the iron then touch the pin with the dripping solder and that then stuck to the pin and hole.

I did get two VDD 3.3volt pins joined together accidentally doing this. I just hope that doesn't upset anything in the future. I miss the fine little battery operated unit I had. it was cheap and nasty but easy to use , more so than the one ive just got.
«1345

Comments

  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-26 13:33
    Get a good quality soldering station. I use a second-hand Metcal STSS power unit with a new handpiece and cartridges. Metcal equipment is expensive when bought new, but second-hand equipment is quite affordable, and is often available on Ebay.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 13:46
    thx Leon, I was warned not to buy the cheap iron but I don't solder enough to spend much but I think ill have to. ive never seen anyone solder anything, so do you use a fine tip when soldering rows of pins to a board ? any other helpful ideas ?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-26 13:48
    whiteox,
    one way of soldering the pins was to melt the solder onto the iron then touch the pin with the dripping solder and that then stuck to the pin and hole.
    Which is the worst possible way to do things.

    The thing about soldering is that you need "flux" to cut through any oxidization on the metal surfaces, and exclude oxygen as they are heated (heat causes rapid oxidization). Then your solder can flow around the metal and its surface tension will pull it into place.

    Regular solder for electronics contains flux. But if you melt the solder onto the iron by the time you have fiddled around getting on to the joint the flux has burned off, can no longer do it's work and you have a very good chance of a "dry" joint. Possibly not even connecting things electrically and being unreliable.

    Solder and iron need to go onto the joint at the same time.

    As Leon says, get yourself a nice iron. With a nice chisel bit. You don't want an ultra fine pointy thing because thin points don't transfer heat effectively. Many insist that you have a soldering station with temperature control etc. I have only ever used that at work. At home I have a cheapish Weller that plugs straight to the mains.

    There are hundreds of vids on how to solder on the you tubes. I like these:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Sb21qbpEQ
    Do watch all the parts.

    Get your self set up nicely otherwise you are going to have a miserable time of it. It does not have to be horrible expensive to do so and these things last for years and years.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 14:00
    thx , ill watch the vids now....I had a strong feeling that melting a heap of solder onto iron then transferring to the pin was a bad idea, more so because its tricky, can get messy but didn't realise the chemical......ramifications !!! thx.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-07-26 14:42
    Tips?

    1) Don't leave your soldering iron on all night, else you may need a new soldering tip.
    2) Don't hold the metal part that you may be soldering with your fingers, else you may burn your finger tip.
    3) Don't forget to tip your waitress.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 15:01
    I really wish I'd known that correct soldering method. Ill go do some practise with my cheapie iron. his messy through hole heating solder instead of metal parts is exactly how some of mine turned out. Also ive got the pointed tip which he demonstrates I'd be far better off with a small chisel point. but he does demonstrate how I can use the conical tip effectively if that's all you have but its harder.

    the first was a real overload of information but still good to know some of it, the second video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY really showed different ways of soldering well.
    I,m going to keep those links for future..
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 15:04
    jazzed wrote: »
    Tips?

    1) Don't leave your soldering iron on all night, else you may need a new soldering tip.
    2) Don't hold the metal part that you may be soldering with your fingers, else you may burn your finger tip.
    3) Don't forget to tip your waitress.

    Hope you've got a good day job jazzed, there's thousands of comedians out of work ;)
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-07-26 15:39
    I was being serious. And yes, waitresses need love too.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 16:00
    jazzed wrote: »
    I was being serious. And yes, waitresses need love too.
    Sorry, I didnt get it , we don't tip waitresses in Australia. But I am wondering how much do you tip your waitresses to show your love ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-26 17:07
    whiteoxe wrote: »
    thx Leon, I was warned not to buy the cheap iron but I don't solder enough to spend much but I think ill have to. ive never seen anyone solder anything, so do you use a fine tip when soldering rows of pins to a board ? any other helpful ideas ?

    The tip should be about the same size as the thing that is being soldered, for optimum heat transfer.

    Metcal makes a special 'mini-hoof' cartridge that holds a small amount of solder. The IC is tacked down using two opposite corners ensuring that it is correctly positioned, flux is applied to all the leads, and the tip is wiped along the first row of leads. The remaining rows are soldered, reloading the tip with solder for each row. This technique is called 'drag-soldering'.
  • rogersydrogersyd Posts: 223
    edited 2014-07-26 17:17
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 17:27
    rogersyd wrote: »

    thanks but that's where Heater sent me to , basically.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-07-26 19:10
    A lot of boards (including the QuickStart) leave most of the copper on the PCB. Whatever copper is left over after running the various traces is used to as a "copper pour". This extra copper is usually part of the ground net but it can also be used with a power network.

    The bottom of the QuickStart board uses this extra copper as part of the ground network. While this copper area is generally covered with a layer of solder resist (the blue paint) it's still possible to cause shorts to the ground if large solder blobs extend over the copper pour.

    You PM mentioned some of the Vdd pins being joined together on the bottom of the board with solder. This probably isn't a problem but if the solder extends over the ground area there is a risk of the Vdd line shorting with Vss (ground).

    You could measure the resistance between a Vdd pin and a Vss pin to see if you have a short (the resistance should be several thousand ohms). You could also post a photo of the area of the board you're concerned about and we could let you know if it looks like there could be a problem.

    Like many things, soldering gets easier the more you do it.
  • GenetixGenetix Posts: 1,754
    edited 2014-07-26 19:16
    There are several rules for good soldering:

    Always, always, always keep your tip tinned (covered with solder).
    Clean the joint before soldering with high strength alcohol, because solder will not stick well to a dirty joint.
    Remember that solder flows towards the heat source so touch the solder OPPOSITE to where the tip is.
    Don't hold the tip to the joint for a long time, otherwise the traces can separate from the circuit board.
    Add a little flux, such as from a flex pen, if a joint is difficult to solder.
    Use the right tip and iron for the job since bigger connections will need more heat.
    Keep your tip clean by wiping it periodically with a sponge.
    Put a big blob of solder on the tip if you are done or will not be using the iron for a little while.
    Use only the temperature that you need, since a higher temperature corrodes the tip faster.

    I prefer eutectic solder (63% Sn, 37% Pb) because it hardens faster than 60-40 but it's more expensive, I also like to "clinch" the leads so the part doesn't move while I'm soldering it. I also prefer good old fashioned rosin flux because I will remove the flux anyway so I can inspect all the joints. I've always felt comfortable with Weller fat irons but some people like the long thin irons.

    Whatever iron you get, look for one where the tip goes into the heater of the iron. The tip of a cheap iron has very contact with the heater.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-26 19:52
    I will post a shot of my soldering of the quickstart. you are going to shudder but at least I know now how to properly solder. ive got away with it in the past because my previous iron I found a lot easier and I used a couple of know methods to remove extra solder more often than I liked.

    I didn't creat a short by soldering the header as you worried I might have. I did a few tests to be sure.

    I am also going to post a video focusing on my quickstart behaving strangely, something is broken I fear. I wired up the SN754410NE motor controller to a breadboard and the quickstart and a single motor. I could not get the motor to budge . I triple checked my wiring of the chip and the QuickStart. I haven't mentioned this because I felt so lost and thick headed. I used SimpleIDE, that was the catalyst for my postings about forgetting about C and going back to Spin.

    I toyed around with the Quickstart this morning just to light a LED. I discovered all the even numbered pins are not giving any output. All the odd numbered pins work fine.

    That's not the end of it.... the pins that are marked odd are the even pins and the pins marked as even are actually the odd pins. I think this will be clearer when ive posted a video. Would the Robotics forum be most appropriate ?
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,664
    edited 2014-07-26 20:24
    A couple of years ago I took the repeated tip from Leon and others about Metcal soldering stations. I got one (ebay) and have never regretted it. Thanks Leon! It is a totally different soldering experience. It is an investement, even from ebay, but well worth it if you do a lot of soldering.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2014-07-26 23:01
    A little OT but,,,,
    how much do you tip your waitresses to show your love ?
    This depends on QOS. (Quality Of Service.) My mother always told me to ALWAYS leave a tip, no matter how rotten the service. I tip anywhere from 5% up to 25% depending on the service. My wife and I frequent an authentic Mexican Restaurant about a mile from our home. We almost always have one of two servers and they get 25% every time due to their excellent and speedy service. Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread, just answering the question!!!!

    Back OT. A couple of years ago I treated myself to an X-Tronic Soldering/Rework station. It is all digital, has very good temp control, a wide variety of tips for soldering and rework and it has suction. I think I paid $160.00 for it shipped and thus far I am very satisfied with it. I also have a butane soldering iron that I use on job sites that also works very well. However, as others have stated, flux is a must!!!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-27 00:16
    About that sponge for tip cleaning.

    No not a sponge out of the shower. They are plastic and will melt into a horrible mess!

    We are talking real sea creature sponge (Correct me if I wrong someone, I'm just guessing that's what they are made from)

    Anyway, if you happen to find you don't have one, you can buy such sponges from the girls make up department of your local supermarket. Girls use them for powdering their noses, or whatever it is girls do with them.

    They are generally yellowish and round. You can cut them to shape to fit the little tray in your soldering iron stand.

    If anyone looks at you strangely or asks in the make up department, be ready to say you need it for 'er in doors.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2014-07-27 00:52
    For through hole longevity, it is best to heat the leads and pads and then add solder. Efficient heat transfer, clean contact points, and specified thermal ranges are all taken into consideration. Flux is not only a good heat conductor, it also cleans the surfaces. At a minimum you'll need to apply a temperature over time consistent with individual specifications of the component. Normally this is a forgiving process and over sized tips aren't too much of an issue, but can be a problem for tight spacing. The best way to do this is optimize the flow of heat. Scrutinize the final application, a magnifier, gentle pull, or the symmetry of the joint can tell you a lot.

    The blue is solder, black is the hole and lead. Look for a nice rising edge. If it bleeds over to the next hole you used a bit too much solder, try another with a little less. To remove solder use another conductor of heat, braided wire, desoldering braid, just about anything even a clean soldering iron tip should suck it up, otherwise it's not clean enough.

    [IMG]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/79058769/pics/robots/Soldering/through hole.jpg[/IMG]
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-27 03:03
    Heater. wrote: »
    About that sponge for tip cleaning.

    No not a sponge out of the shower. They are plastic and will melt into a horrible mess!

    We are talking real sea creature sponge (Correct me if I wrong someone, I'm just guessing that's what they are made from)

    Anyway, if you happen to find you don't have one, you can buy such sponges from the girls make up department of your local supermarket. Girls use them for powdering their noses, or whatever it is girls do with them.

    They are generally yellowish and round. You can cut them to shape to fit the little tray in your soldering iron stand.

    If anyone looks at you strangely or asks in the make up department, be ready to say you need it for 'er in doors.

    The Metcal sponges I use are made of cellulose, but they now seem to favour a brass pad.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-27 03:32
    Leon.

    Cellulose...that makes sense. Thinking about it a real sea sponge type sponge is lot more limp if I remember correctly.

    I have wondered about those brass "sponge" pads. Do they work well?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-27 04:21
    I've never tried them, mainly because I need to get a new iron holder. The main advantage seems to be that they don't reduce the tip temperature.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-27 04:25
    Hmm...I have never had a problem with tip wiping on a damp sponge lowering tip temperature long enough to be a problem.
    The brass pad thing just doesn't sound as satisfying some how. Have to give it a try I guess.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2014-07-27 04:33
    The latest Metcal MX-500 workstands have both sponge and brass pads:

    http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct.jsp?sku=1705197&CMP=KNC-GUK-FUK-GEN-SKU-MDC&mckv=sIS8GaINI|pcrid|39078108968|kword|mx-w1av|match|p|plid|&gclid=CL67hOO05b8CFfOhtAods1QALA

    The tip saver feature won't work with my ancient STSS power unit and it's made for the MX-5000 handpiece rather than my MX-500 handpiece.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-27 04:44
    No frikkin way. Those Metcal MX-500's are $600 and up!

    I was recently thinking about splashing out 40 odd euro on this:
    http://www.batronix.com/shop/soldering/Atten-AT937b.html
    or this:
    http://www.batronix.com/shop/soldering/Atten-AT938D.html
    I think I prefer a nice big knob to turn rather than the digital push button thing. Why can't they make one with digital temp display and a big knob to turn? Sounds like a Propeller project right there!

    The thousand euros is being saved up for a nice new Rigol scope:)
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-27 04:45
    I didn't realise how truly bad my soldering was until I took this piciure. what you are looking at is hard to tell. but I have soldered 8 pins of a female header, some are joined together, they are ground pins and 3.3volt pins. At least I did not join a ground to a 3.3 volt. then I also soldered in a pair of male pins. one of which is a ground pin. I can use it or the female row of ground or both when experimenting After watching those videos sent by Heater I can do far far better. thx so much.

    is it at all possible this mess is why none of the even numbered pins are working but all the odd numbered pins are. I wondered why I couldn't get the sn754410ne motor controller to work, but I was using even numbered pins in simpleIDE.

    I tested all the pins by lighting a LED. ALL THE EVEN NUMBERS FAILED ? capslock!!!!!


    quickweld 001.jpg
    1024 x 680 - 127K
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-07-27 04:53
    Not actually as bad as I was expecting!

    Far two much solder of course.

    Thing is, when the solder balls up into big round blobs like it means you cannot see it flow nicely around the surfaces you are trying to connect. If your surfaces are a bit corroded, which they always are, or greasy and not clean, then the solder may not have "wetted" it nicely. That could mean no electrical connection or at least an unreliable one. You have no way to see how good it is under the blob.

    Then there is the risk of big blobs causing shorts to nearby tracks of course.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2014-07-27 05:17
    whiteoxe wrote: »
    I didn't realise how truly bad my soldering was until I took this piciure. what you are looking at is hard to tell. but I have soldered 8 pins of a female header, some are joined together, they are ground pins and 3.3volt pins. At least I did not join a ground to a 3.3 volt. then I also soldered in a pair of male pins. one of which is a ground pin. I can use it or the female row of ground or both when experimenting After watching those videos sent by Heater I can do far far better. thx so much.

    is it at all possible this mess is why none of the even numbered pins are working but all the odd numbered pins are. I wondered why I couldn't get the sn754410ne motor controller to work, but I was using even numbered pins in simpleIDE.

    I tested all the pins by lighting a LED. ALL THE EVEN NUMBERS FAILED ? capslock!!!!!


    quickweld 001.jpg

    When I come over I will give you a few quick tips but I can see straight away that you are making the age old mistake of melting the solder with the tip onto the joint. If you push your tip as if to wedge it against the pad and the pin and feed just a tiny amount of solder in between the tip and pad then wait a second for it to heat up the pad and pin, and then feed in some more solder, holding that for another second, you will end up with a pretty good solder joint.

    Of course if the pad is part of a thick ground plane or the pin is rather large you may need to preheat the joint a second or two longer even feeding small amounts of solder at this point, just enough to help it to conduct the heat from the tip to the pin and pad. I find that rubbing that tip back an forth a tiny amount at this preheat stage helps to improve the preheat. Once the pin and pad are hot enough then feeding on the rest of the solder means it will melt and bond on contact with these surfaces. So you see the tip is not for melting solder really, you just need to make the pin and pad hot enough first.
  • whiteoxewhiteoxe Posts: 794
    edited 2014-07-27 07:26
    Thanks for your feedback.......boy it was far kinder than I had expected ;) I just wanted to copy Duanes Quickstart and I had the headers and pins from you PJ to do it. Soon as I looked at these tiny pins through holes I knew I had to hold my breath and just try. I didn't think of watching of watching a video, I mean ive done miles and miles of welding , thick, thin , up down, upside-down everything except underwater. but I learnt I didn't know what I was doing so I cant blame my dirt cheap conical solder iron I just got for it all.



    just finished watching the F1 race in Hungry, congrats to Dan Riccardo and again to my online betting account !! I can soon get a soldering station at this rate ;)
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-07-27 07:38
    I haven't done any welding, but from what I've heard, soldering is a lot easier than welding.

    You want a little bit if solder on the iron to help the heat transfer from the soldering iron to the pin/PCB. If you place a "dry" soldering tip against the pin/PCB, you don't get the heat to transfer as fast as with a "wet" tip.

    Here's a picture of the bottom of one of my QuickStart boards.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=109847&d=1406471716

    Had I known I was going to photograph the solder, I would have been more careful as I soldered the headers.

    I used a red X to indicate a joint which doesn't look very good. The three green check marks indicate the joints which IMO, look the best.
    922 x 578 - 217K
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