It's time to vote on the proposed features of the P1+
Sandfire
Posts: 32
I think the time has come for Parallax to publish a complete list of all the proposed features for the P1+ as well as the estimated time to complete them and put them to a vote.
I would suggest that each forum member who has been registered for more than [x] days have the opportunity to vote on no more than [y] features from the list.
After the vote which should last for [z] days, the tally is made and the results published to the forum.
The rules that would need to be decided are:
[x] Length of time a person has been a member of the parallax forum. This prevents people voting multiple times with brand new accounts.
[y] The number of features a member can vote on. This would best be decided after the complete list of proposed features is published.
[z] The number of days the vote will last
After the vote, the community can then get a sense of the features that are popular and the time required to implement them.
At that point, a decision needs to be made based on the results of the vote.
First I would suggest that Chip and/or the community determine a set amount of time in which to allocate to the P1+.
Then simply select, in order, the most voted on features from the top down, up to the point where the total estimated time is the same as what Chip and/or the community previously decided.
I put this suggestion to the community for comments and hopefully, soon, action.
I am weary of the many years I have spent waiting for the next propeller, reading endless posts and watching feature creep put the P1+ on the road to nowhere.
I would suggest that each forum member who has been registered for more than [x] days have the opportunity to vote on no more than [y] features from the list.
After the vote which should last for [z] days, the tally is made and the results published to the forum.
The rules that would need to be decided are:
[x] Length of time a person has been a member of the parallax forum. This prevents people voting multiple times with brand new accounts.
[y] The number of features a member can vote on. This would best be decided after the complete list of proposed features is published.
[z] The number of days the vote will last
After the vote, the community can then get a sense of the features that are popular and the time required to implement them.
At that point, a decision needs to be made based on the results of the vote.
First I would suggest that Chip and/or the community determine a set amount of time in which to allocate to the P1+.
Then simply select, in order, the most voted on features from the top down, up to the point where the total estimated time is the same as what Chip and/or the community previously decided.
I put this suggestion to the community for comments and hopefully, soon, action.
I am weary of the many years I have spent waiting for the next propeller, reading endless posts and watching feature creep put the P1+ on the road to nowhere.
Comments
I don't think the forum can vote on a chip that internally is being designed by their criteria. Yes the have asked for input, but you can not demand the features to be put to a vote.
Chip will decide what is best and what will fit on the silicon.
Would you do the same with Intel?
We just need to be patient.
We can suggest, beg, plead, lobby. As we were graciously invited to do. That's all.
By the way. Why would being a forum member longer make ones opinions any more valuable?
I can not and did not demand a vote, I suggested a vote.
I suggested a vote so that everyone in the forum can see in one place the popularity of all the suggested features as well as the time estimated to implement those features.
Sorry. Demand was the wrong word.
You did not read my initial post fully. I suggested that brand new accounts not be allowed to vote in order to stop people from creating brand new accounts and vote multiple times for their favorite feature
Some people are frustrated with the amount of time this has taken. Much has been learned "the hard way" along the way. Ken clearly has a vision of the how this processor-to-be fits into the business and its finances. He and Chip appear to communicate freely and meaningfully. Ken also appears to understand the creative process and its costs and benefits. If you find it too stressful to watch from the sidelines, take a break.
Well, I hope that the mentality around here is not what you suggest.
Again, the suggested vote is simply designed to allow all forum members to see what all the proposed features are and how long they will take to implement. Armed with this information, Chip can see what the "state of the union" is like out here and hopefully that will help him solidify his options.
I'm not stressed Mike, just weary.
We would all like to see something physical emerge from this long bumpy process ... something we can buy and use. It will take yet more time for this to happen and there may be further unforseen obstacles looming up. It looks like the switch to OnSemi has brought some useful tools. The wider use of synthesized logic also looks like it's helped as well. If you have some skills and experience in the chip design area or something similar, by all means offer to contribute, but more opinions are of limited use at this time.
Even so, everyone here has their own opinions on how the PII should be. It's the subject of much debate.
My little point was that even here the most popular thing on this forum may not be the best way to go.
I hear what you are saying Mike, very clearly.
Based on the reactions to my suggested vote, I have to wonder why we even discuss possible features of the P1+ or P2. If Chip is going to design a chip based on what you described above and does not take what "we, the people", want, into consideration, why do we even have this forum?
I was under the impression that the design process of the P1+/P2 was somewhat open. If in fact the design process is open to suggestion, I do not see the problem with having a vote on what features people here would find most useful. The vote is certainly not binding. I would personally like to see the lay of the landscape one one page if for no other reason than to get a sense of how much longer this process will take.
In the meantime, while I wait, I have started working with the Teensy, the Beagleboard, and the Raspberry Pi to keep myself busy until the P1+/P2 comes out.
I agree. To paraphrase an oft repeated saying. "A processor for everyone, is a processor for no one"
My suggestion of a vote was for Chip to see exactly what would be the most popular features based on voting. What he does with that information is entirely up to him.
I don't know. But we do. Chip invited forum input a long time ago. Along the way some very good ideas have emerged. Some how Chip does a very good job of filtering out reams and reams of debate and homing in on what he is interested in.
If you want my take, we suggested and Chip implemented a lot of stuff!! That proved too aggressive for the 180nm process physics.
Now that is getting distilled down into a design that is optimal for the process. Some suggestions still make sense, and Chip solicits those when it makes sense. Many suggestions are likely off the table, until the real chip is produced.
At some point, thet cycle will begin again. When it does, the field will be really open for a while. We will have the goodies from the more aggressive design, a new process target, etc...
Right at this moment, the most popular is known. Process limits are known. Core design criteria is known and managed by Chip, who is currently building an FPGA for everybody to get started testing / developing / documenting on.
IMHO, the lack of consensus seen here is more an artifact of differeing opinions on the future than it is any impediment to progress at this time.
I think the votes should be multiplied by the number of posts that people have made. That way Mike Green and Phil and other people with over 10000 posts can pretty much decide on whats going to be in the P1+. Heater, you only need 270 269 more posts to hit the 10000 mark.
BTW Sandfire, your avatar means nothing to me.
I believe he was paraphrasing Aristotle's "a friend to all is a friend to none."
No, I was paraphrasing the oft repeated saying "A book for everyone is a book for no one"
Sandfire's avatar is just great. Euler was the man.
You're right Dave. Euler's identity does equate to nothing.
Indeed.
I find it astounding that a person with 20 posts -- many in this thread -- proposes a public vote to tell Parallax what to do. There is only one vote, and it belongs to Chip Gracey. If he doesn't want to do it, he won't. Period.
Having known him for quite a long time, I can say that Chip's heart is in the right place: he wants to collaborate with customers and provide them something truly unique. As we've seen, it's a double-edged sword. What I hope Chip will ultimately realize is that the kindest thing he could do for his friends and customers is to release products more frequently. Incremental improvements are fine -- they are in the right direction. While working at Toro, we -- under new management -- developed a very disciplined product development process that prevented "feature creep." No, good ideas weren't ignored, they were put in the "next generation" basket. Our new-product delivery time improved from an average of three years to an average of six months. Distributors and customers were thrilled with the constant stream of new products, and within a couple years Toro was able to purchase and adsorb two major competitors.
There is now software to manage that entire ideation process.
The big hurdle here is everybody wants THE ONE CHIP. Once it gets done, and we use the FPGAs to improve and release sooner, perhaps that process will become more the norm here.
It is increasingly standard in a lot of industries.
Sigh...no one seems to read threads completely...
Again, I was not telling anyone to do anything. I simpy suggested a vote so that everyone on the forum could see on one page what all the proposed features were and how long they would take. What Chip does with that information is up to him.
However, I am surprised by your comment that since I have only 20 posts, that somehow I am not entitled to an opinion here. I have been a member on this forum for many years. I post very rarely. That does not mean my opinions are not valid.
-Phil
Yes, T Chap, I find it funny too.
I made a simple suggestion for a vote on what features people would like to see in the P1+ and got jumped on for having dared to suggest it.
I can't argue with that Phil.
I love it when you speak MBA.
"Ideation", what a classic. A whole new word for me. From wikipedia:
Ideation is the creative process of generating, developing, and communicating new ideas, where an idea is understood as a basic element of thought that can be either visual, concrete, or abstract.[1] Ideation comprises all stages of a thought cycle, from innovation, to development, to actualization.[2] As such, it is an essential part of the design process, both in education and practice.[3]
I bet Leonardo da Vinci and Einstein were really into "Ideation".
In any case, it's growing in general use to describe the creative process in a business context. Interestingly, I see creative people using it as well, which strikes me as kind of funny! Some of them get the humor, and use more established and meaningful terms.
Not sure who started it. I first started seeing it in more than niche use sometime around the 2000's. It's increased as of the 2010's, and software people, who are trying to link the creative process, design, and intellectual property, or assets, into one "process" an MBA can look at and somehow value, are using the term consistently these days.
Whatever we call it, Johnny Mac put a very solid and increasingly used process out there. It was worth riffing on a little.
Oh, and I see it led you to "thought cycle" and soon you will bump into "thought leadership", etc... Run. Please. Quickly.
Anyway, fun word games aside, the idea of getting this device done and into the hands of people is primary. Needs to happen.
From there, the idea of potentially releasing things in shorter cycles is a very compelling one and something I would very much like to see and be a part of.
And that is what "Word." meant, just to get that one sorted, before it gets asked. (I actually like that one as slang)
Can face my team and say "Hey you dumb so-and-sos we need some ideation around here or we are all out of business"
Or the more subtle "Let's have an ideation meeting later this week"
I mean. How do you do this "ideation" thing?