I'm painfully aware of what you say about cheap programmers in far-away places. I think I'm the last software engineer left in the US who works for the STMicroelectronics R&D organization. All the real technical work is done elsewhere including India, Singapore, Tunisia, and even France and Italy. I'm stuck with the role of "software achitect" which means I write lists of product features and write PowerPoint presentations and never code. Anyone want to hire a software engineer from New Hampshire? :-)
Better keep that job, otherwise you'll just be a hobbyist and you know Phil doesn't think they count for much.
Better to be a hobbyist than a sycophant I suppose.
I think everybody is aware of those painful "other places" realities. Honestly, I think developments here, like the P2, are needed so that people can do startups and establish more work here. Silicon Valley is doing lots of hardware startups now, and it's beginning to compete with software based ones. Good to see. Sadly, a lot of their work uses the Apple model, so there are still those painful other places going on, but with that activity, there are local efforts going on and bolstered by them too.
@David: For what it's worth, there is lots of software sprouting up in Portland Oregon. Much of the work is done here. Maybe it's not all bad. Some of those are going to grow into larger companies, and ideally they keep it here.
Multicore is the new black so to speak and will only get bigger from here on out.
Certainly as an option for higher-end, more demanding applications it will soon be a staple folks like Tilera and KalRay and XMOS, in addition to the big names that you mentioned.
Thanks for the offer to consider me for your team but I'm afraid I'll never get my wife to move that far away from her family and our kids. Sounds like a great opportunity though! Maybe some other forum members will take you up on it!
I'm painfully aware of what you say about cheap programmers in far-away places. I think I'm the last software engineer left in the US who works for the STMicroelectronics R&D organization. All the real technical work is done elsewhere including India, Singapore, Tunisia, and even France and Italy. I'm stuck with the role of "software achitect" which means I write lists of product features and write PowerPoint presentations and never code. Anyone want to hire a software engineer from New Hampshire? :-)
Actually, my current boss is at the ST location in Catania Italy so I may be visiting Italy sometime soon. This and the job in Canada just prove my point though. Not much of interest is happening in the US anymore. You have to go elsewhere.
The market research indicates that more, cheaper ARM chips are needed, along with cheaper programmers in far-away places who will handle the niggling details so that the project manager can enjoy a beer.
(Note to self: apply for more project manager jobs tomorrow! )
My job was just sent overseas, I've spent the past 10 days with knowledge transfer, training them to do what I do, one of the new jobs I could try for is 'vendor management' to watch over the people taking my job, I get to spend my last possible days on vacation doing production support on the application. Please pass the salt, I found another open wound!
As for the P2 lament, I accept the delays and look forward to most of the changes. I trust in Chip to sift through everything and find the golden nuggets to incorporate into the P2 while still retaining the elegance and simplicity of his original vision. No lamenting here...just let's get on with the show!
(Note to self: apply for more project manager jobs tomorrow! )
My job was just sent overseas, I've spent the past 10 days with knowledge transfer, training them to do what I do, one of the new jobs I could try for is 'vendor management' to watch over the people taking my job, I get to spend my last possible days on vacation doing production support on the application. Please pass the salt, I found another open wound!
Sorry to hear that! I hope you have good luck finding a new job soon!
Thanks! Looking on the bright side, at least I'm not a sycophant, hobbyist tart! I have no opinions or ideas on what the P2 should be...and may have LOTS of free time soon to play!!
The market research indicates that more, cheaper ARM chips are needed, ...
Chip, I assume that Parallax must sell hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of P2s to recoup its development investment. Given the presumed need for more, cheaper ARM chips, what specific benefits might the P2 offer that would allow it to penetrate such a market? Have you identified potential market niches that care more about the performance capabilities and time-to-market advantages that the P2 offers? If so, how have the requirements of these niches shaped your design strategy for the P2?
I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative; I'm just trying to understand what a business model for profiting from a finished P2 chip might look like.
What you are asking for there Phil would normally be regarded as company confidential. Potential market opportunities, customers, leads, plans. All information that a company mignt keep close to it's chest for fear of competitors getting a jump on them.
Not say that it is the case with Parallax and the P2 but it maybe it's bit cheeky to ask.
Normally, I would agree with that. Actually, I do still agree with that. I wouldn't put any real material research out there right now.
However, I think some general case discussion is appropriate given how open things are in most other areas.
That said, I'm quite sure Ken and Parallax in general are going to make the business model as they get product in hand. I also think that is going to be necessary just because of how highly differentiated the P2 will be, just like the P1 was. Communicating some of these things won't work on spec and data sheets very well.
Throughout this discussion, some interesting niches have been identified. Just a week ago, there was a P1 user articulating what real time, clock edge precise means. JMG and a few others have put some niches out there too. IMHO, the hard work is doing the detail research on those. Gotta look for gaps and places where re-adopting some tech would make sense. Reference designs and such will need to be there to make those cases. Not sure they will happen organically, but then again, this chip is more powerful. Maybe we will attract the next level of people capable of dragging the devices into places or who may make products.
Again, some general case discussion makes sense. If I had done any material research, I would not put it here. Even if competing products don't really have the mix, clever messaging may well close doors that would be otherwise open. (any team worth their salt will do that in a second) Agreed Heater.
Given the presumed need for more, cheaper ARM chips, what specific benefits might the P2 offer that would allow it to penetrate such a market? Have you identified potential market niches that care more about the performance capabilities and time-to-market advantages that the P2 offers?
Things to notice :
* No ARM cores here
* This is not a $2 chip
Seems TI thinks there is room for $20 region parts, in gull wing packages.
Some of their bullet points :
Swiftly execute trigonometric-based algorithms used in control functions, such as torque loops traditionally done in FPGAs with the new trigonometric math unit (TMU) accelerator included on the C28x cores.
Better predict motor failures by performing vibrational analysis with the viterbi complex unit (VCU II) accelerators, which boost processing capabilities in the C28x cores.
Fine-tune control and monitor multiple feedbacks using four 16-bit ADCs to improve system accuracy in industrial applications such as solar central inverters and high-end industrial UPS systems.
Reduce MCU input noise and enable isolated current shunt measurements with a seamless interface to the TI AMC1204 isolated delta sigma modulator.
I'm guessing the P2 counters can also interface to the TI AMC1204 isolated delta sigma modulator ?
This will come back to a Parallax resource issue like it has with the SimpleIDE/Propgcc launch.
For the P2, there needs to be work started on an updated and more complete appnote library as soon as the design is finalized. Those niche opportunities and killer features need to be ready to go on display as soon as there is silicon ready. The FPGA is the place to test and develop those but it needs to be done sooner than later. They can be solicited from the community but the process needs to be managed and driven from within Parallax. The product launch needs to be accompanied with documentation, release notes, reference designs and every other possible exposure and evaluation tool possible to start reaching and developing the niche markets other wise the P2 will be a really cool hobbyist chip used by all the fans on the forum. Potential large quantity engineers aren't going to sit around even longer to wait for all the supporting information to learn and evaluate this great niche solution.
The community can help but there needs to be probuct management, launch planning and FE evangelism for the P2 directed from inside Parallax.
Chip, I assume that Parallax must sell hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of P2s to recoup its development investment. Given the presumed need for more, cheaper ARM chips, what specific benefits might the P2 offer that would allow it to penetrate such a market? Have you identified potential market niches that care more about the performance capabilities and time-to-market advantages that the P2 offers? If so, how have the requirements of these niches shaped your design strategy for the P2?
I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative; I'm just trying to understand what a business model for profiting from a finished P2 chip might look like.
Thanks,
-Phil
As I'm sure you can imagine, I haven't done any market research, as it seems a foregone conclusion that the world just wants more of what it's already getting (C, ARM chips, interchangeable/cheap labor). I've just been building what seems useful to me, a hardware/software designer of 34 years.
The Prop2 may not penetrate the ARM market, at all, and that would be just fine with me. I trust it will find adequate use among people who love designing things, and that we can compensate for possibly low device sales with development boards - perhaps ones targeting various applications.
I strongly suspect we will see some niche products made strong with this chip. If some of those see any volume at all, and those who made them success, it could build very nicely.
The development board done right ends up being development system on a board. No OS, just tools and a lot of things that work together with low hassle. And what I mean by that isn't necessarily developing right on the board. I do mean a little system capable of lots of things. Use your PC, whatever, send the code in, and then interact with it as needed to get things done kind of system. With all the I/O capability, development boards can do a TON, right out of the box, with a high degree of flexibility.
There still exists the possibility for somebody to be the evangelist and generate interest and demand that way too. Just don't know what that really looks like right now.
Existing education can punch through to larger scale / higher level tasks easily. This seems a no brainer to me.
... as it seems a foregone conclusion that the world just wants more of what it's already getting (C, ARM chips, interchangeable/cheap labor).
This much is spot on in my view. Differentiation is key for a company like Parallax and a product like P2. It would be a fool's errand to go chasing after big-time commercial design wins that routinely go to ARMs and similar devices. Like the P1, except even more so, P2 will be a niche part. It's financial success will depend largely on getting many orders at 10,000 pieces and (mostly) below. That said, it would be wise to consider early on where those potential niche markets might be located.
True for both the hardware and software: Chasing what everyone else is doing, especially with delusions of getting million-piece orders and the like, could in fact work to the P2's detriment.
Well, you don't have to be a programmer to live better outside the USA.
I left in 1994 and though I made less on a annual basis than in the USA, I have always been able to live better and save more. But it is getting harder to migrate abroad... Taiwan is more reluctant to have foreigners take jobs from locals, and that seems to be a general trend elsewhere as well.
One can always find a way to open a bar and grill somewhere in Thailand, but that comes with a lot of looking the other way and not taking sides in any of the local politics. Of course the same can be said of a lot of places in the good old USA.
Comments
Better keep that job, otherwise you'll just be a hobbyist and you know Phil doesn't think they count for much.
Better to be a hobbyist than a sycophant I suppose.
C.W.
@David: For what it's worth, there is lots of software sprouting up in Portland Oregon.
Yet that sometimes seems almost the case. One could legitimately wonder at certain moments anyway.
A little off-topic here....
But seriously we'd love to have you join our team of 20-ish software engineers as a "real" developer. Be prepared for LOTS of heavy lifting though !
And while I'm at it, we are also looking for hardware (analog/digital) design experts, including a highly qualified department manager.
Oh, and by the way, you'd need to move to Alberta, Canada...... a little nippy here right now, but the jobs are truly design engineer's "dreamjob".
Send resume's to myself, Peter Van der Zee, pjv@willowglen.ca
Cheers, Peter
Thanks for the offer to consider me for your team but I'm afraid I'll never get my wife to move that far away from her family and our kids. Sounds like a great opportunity though! Maybe some other forum members will take you up on it!
LOL! And better a sycophant than a cheap tart, which is Chip's unfortunate position.
Could be Phil's new Gratification Now philosophy is playing hob with his judgement.
LMAO!! What does this even mean ?!?
Are you ready to move to Italy ?
Wonderful food there! :thumb:
History galore. :nerd:
Horrible, horrible traffic.
Is that in reference to driver behaviour or grid lock?
Depends ... I'll answer grid lock (but not in every city) ... people that know me will say mostly due to driver behavior.
This is globalization ... In the sense that everyone in the globe is saying the same.
-Phil
Oh, man! And here I was starting to feel sorry for you!
NYC is a fairly long drive for you, but I understand a number of folks do that commute -- something about taxes or something.
(Note to self: apply for more project manager jobs tomorrow!
My job was just sent overseas, I've spent the past 10 days with knowledge transfer, training them to do what I do, one of the new jobs I could try for is 'vendor management' to watch over the people taking my job, I get to spend my last possible days on vacation doing production support on the application. Please pass the salt, I found another open wound!
As for the P2 lament, I accept the delays and look forward to most of the changes. I trust in Chip to sift through everything and find the golden nuggets to incorporate into the P2 while still retaining the elegance and simplicity of his original vision. No lamenting here...just let's get on with the show!
I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative; I'm just trying to understand what a business model for profiting from a finished P2 chip might look like.
Thanks,
-Phil
Not say that it is the case with Parallax and the P2 but it maybe it's bit cheeky to ask.
However, I think some general case discussion is appropriate given how open things are in most other areas.
That said, I'm quite sure Ken and Parallax in general are going to make the business model as they get product in hand. I also think that is going to be necessary just because of how highly differentiated the P2 will be, just like the P1 was. Communicating some of these things won't work on spec and data sheets very well.
Throughout this discussion, some interesting niches have been identified. Just a week ago, there was a P1 user articulating what real time, clock edge precise means. JMG and a few others have put some niches out there too. IMHO, the hard work is doing the detail research on those. Gotta look for gaps and places where re-adopting some tech would make sense. Reference designs and such will need to be there to make those cases. Not sure they will happen organically, but then again, this chip is more powerful. Maybe we will attract the next level of people capable of dragging the devices into places or who may make products.
Again, some general case discussion makes sense. If I had done any material research, I would not put it here. Even if competing products don't really have the mix, clever messaging may well close doors that would be otherwise open. (any team worth their salt will do that in a second) Agreed Heater.
Here you go
http://www.ti.com/product/TMS320F28377D?DCMP=c2x-f2837xd&HQS=c2x-f2837xd-tf1
Things to notice :
* No ARM cores here
* This is not a $2 chip
Seems TI thinks there is room for $20 region parts, in gull wing packages.
Some of their bullet points :
Swiftly execute trigonometric-based algorithms used in control functions, such as torque loops traditionally done in FPGAs with the new trigonometric math unit (TMU) accelerator included on the C28x cores.
Better predict motor failures by performing vibrational analysis with the viterbi complex unit (VCU II) accelerators, which boost processing capabilities in the C28x cores.
Fine-tune control and monitor multiple feedbacks using four 16-bit ADCs to improve system accuracy in industrial applications such as solar central inverters and high-end industrial UPS systems.
Reduce MCU input noise and enable isolated current shunt measurements with a seamless interface to the TI AMC1204 isolated delta sigma modulator.
I'm guessing the P2 counters can also interface to the TI AMC1204 isolated delta sigma modulator ?
For the P2, there needs to be work started on an updated and more complete appnote library as soon as the design is finalized. Those niche opportunities and killer features need to be ready to go on display as soon as there is silicon ready. The FPGA is the place to test and develop those but it needs to be done sooner than later. They can be solicited from the community but the process needs to be managed and driven from within Parallax. The product launch needs to be accompanied with documentation, release notes, reference designs and every other possible exposure and evaluation tool possible to start reaching and developing the niche markets other wise the P2 will be a really cool hobbyist chip used by all the fans on the forum. Potential large quantity engineers aren't going to sit around even longer to wait for all the supporting information to learn and evaluate this great niche solution.
The community can help but there needs to be probuct management, launch planning and FE evangelism for the P2 directed from inside Parallax.
As I'm sure you can imagine, I haven't done any market research, as it seems a foregone conclusion that the world just wants more of what it's already getting (C, ARM chips, interchangeable/cheap labor). I've just been building what seems useful to me, a hardware/software designer of 34 years.
The Prop2 may not penetrate the ARM market, at all, and that would be just fine with me. I trust it will find adequate use among people who love designing things, and that we can compensate for possibly low device sales with development boards - perhaps ones targeting various applications.
That's it. Does that make anybody uneasy?
I strongly suspect we will see some niche products made strong with this chip. If some of those see any volume at all, and those who made them success, it could build very nicely.
The development board done right ends up being development system on a board. No OS, just tools and a lot of things that work together with low hassle.
There still exists the possibility for somebody to be the evangelist and generate interest and demand that way too. Just don't know what that really looks like right now.
Existing education can punch through to larger scale / higher level tasks easily. This seems a no brainer to me.
True for both the hardware and software: Chasing what everyone else is doing, especially with delusions of getting million-piece orders and the like, could in fact work to the P2's detriment.
I left in 1994 and though I made less on a annual basis than in the USA, I have always been able to live better and save more. But it is getting harder to migrate abroad... Taiwan is more reluctant to have foreigners take jobs from locals, and that seems to be a general trend elsewhere as well.
One can always find a way to open a bar and grill somewhere in Thailand, but that comes with a lot of looking the other way and not taking sides in any of the local politics. Of course the same can be said of a lot of places in the good old USA.