Bruce, I've thanked you as have others for your opposition. It's good, because it helps to vet things. I personally believe in how this place works and believe the policy we put here is a good thing. I know you don't, and that's OK. Should something material happen that warrants some discussion, I trust you will be there ready for that discussion, yes?
So then, let us have it then and for now trust Parallax is working hard to do us all a solid. Moving past this sausage as Phil so correctly put it is good for everybody.
I don't think badly of you, nor will I crow over having a position better aligned with the state of things, because those both are just meta. The fun stuff is inside the box with the Paralax logo on it, and personally on my desk waiting for some ugly work to complete so I can get to finishing it! That's where the meat is man, not this stuff. Not sure what other consideration I can grant you.
You cannot ignore, because it simply will not go away, and advising people to ignore it, is just plain bad advice.
I don't believe anything was said about ignoring it. We're just choosing to not spend time in worrying over it. I'd quote myself from my previous post, because-- like I said-- I sometimes just write good stuff, but that may construed as proselytizing.
This isn't me slamming anyone in particular-- or even in general. Believe me, I'll slam myself well before anyone else, and if it's anyone else, it'll be everyone else, because I'm equal opportunity that way.
But really, isn't this like anything else on the forum? "Sure, we'll be glad to help you out, but it wouldn't hurt you to do your homework first..."?
Much of what I do is based upon design work. I spend a lot of time drafting, reviewing specs, etc.... It has been my experience that without a proper plan, failure is likely to happen. Since it is obvious that this policy is truly Parallax's objective, I stand behind it. I am just saying don't be to hasty, thoroughly define the objectives, devise a plan, and implement the plan. This will help ensure the success of the objectives. All I have seen so far is a statement of the new policy, but I have yet to see a strong structure to fully support it. I want Parallax to be successful, therefore, I would like to see the proper support. Think of me as the "inspector". Right now, I have issued a red tag, and I will most definitely issue a green tag when I approve of the structure. Not that Parallax needs or wants my approval, but when I give it the green tag, this new policy will have a much better structure. Planning is everything. Before diving into a body of water, you should always know what is below the surface.
I now understand the fights you mentioned Bruce. I'm choosing to not go looking for trouble and I'm trusting in my friends here to help all of us get through it should some come our way. Would be great to count on you for that Bruce, but I understand if you just cant get there. Happy trails buddy.
Right now, I have issued a red tag, and I will most definitely issue a green tag when I approve of the structure. Not that Parallax needs or wants my approval, but when I give it the green tag, this new policy will have a much better structure.
There is no way on earth the Gracey's, Parallax, myself, anyone on this forum or indeed the world is going to care a jot about your tags. If we want legal advice we will seek it. Setting yourself up as legal adviser is probably not a good idea.
OK, maybe we need to see some hands here and figure out what the population of the forum is and what their expectation of protection are since we're doing a study and collecting all the information for a proper analysis, planning and design.
I am a hobbyist and don't really feel I need protection beyond the MIT license for either code I use that's licensed as such or code I produce that's licensed as such. If someone finds value in any code I post and wishes to use it, bless their hearts (and question their sanity). If I ever intend to create something that goes beyond my family or is something I'm compensated for, then I will investigate the licensing issues and make sure I have proper protection. Should I ever create code that manifests itself into the "next great thing", then it will not be posted here under the MIT license unless I'm feeling especially benevolent. Should I ever think I require something beyond the MIT license, then I will investigate further and act accordingly.
This is a public forum. I will try to conduct myself as I would in any public place (or my mother's parlor) and protect my property as I would in any public place.
I guess I'm back to not getting it. If I want to do something and it doesn't feel right, I won't do it. If I want to use something and it doesn't feel right, I won't use it!
I trust Chip and Ken to do the right thing. I trust the community as a whole to do the right thing. I'll play by the golden rule and will expect those I deal with to do the same. Should I get cheated, there's no shame on me, just shame on the cheater. They may benefit in the shot term but in the long term we're all dead and that's when it matters.
There is no way on earth the Gracey's, Parallax, myself, anyone on this forum or indeed the world is going to care a jot about your tags. If we want legal advice we will seek it. Setting yourself up as legal adviser is probably not a good idea.
Okay, I will grant you that, nor do I want to honestly give "legal" advice. In fact, I honestly don't care, except that I want Parallax to succeed. The code I need is basically simple stuff for the most part, I am not into the fancy source code like some of the people here.
However, I would say that Parallax should value my opinion, because I have plans for the use of their products. Of course it is all speculative at this point, but their still are plans. Take for instance the attached photo, this product was designed over a year ago and is just waiting for the capital to back it up. Each one of these will require some type of microcontroller. This is just one example of several designs.
Additionally, it won't be long before I have the capital to back my products, and when I do get my capital, production of certain items will begin. It may not be a truckload of sales for Parallax, however I am sure it will be significant.
I value Parallax and I hope they value me as well. Sure I may be aggravating at times, but my intentions are good, unlike those that attack people within the forums.
"original" source code is interesting qualification. Sounds good at first read.
Maybe "new" would be a better term to use. Code being requoted would either have been originally posted before or after the Grand Edict, determining its MIT status. Remember, though, it could all come down to what the meaning of the word "is" is, in a court of law, even though none of us could afford to push it that far.
Not to pummel this oozing splitting sausage any further, but I was thinking about what you said earlier, idbruce, about loosing 99.9% of the time in legal proceedings because you hadn't done some requisite thing ahead of time. I wonder, if you had done each of those extra things beforehand that seemed to cause you to lose, would it have really made the outcomes any different? Certainly, the defendants' lawyers would have tried to convince your side that there was yet some other deficiency in your claim, and on and on it could go through unknown iterations of "if-only" scenarios. It's a lot harder for one side to prove something beyond dispute (perhaps impossible?) than it is for the other to discredit it in a hundred ways that will sound plausible. This left you blaming yourself, when you never could have "won", anyway, because you lacked the resources to achieve the Pyrrhic victory that is the only one possible. Just a thought. And, yes, we do appreciate your presence here, in case you were wondering. So does kartoffelkopf.
I hate courts and lawyers just like you. Even when you do everything right, they still find a way to make you bend over. Not that this particular instance applies to a civil case, but it proves my point and your point that the whole damn system is corrupt. I only tell this story, because I think it is a perfect example of the BS that exists. However, I still believe that knowledge and prevention is the best way to remain out of conflict.
I was on my way to work one morning, running perhaps a little late, when I hit one of the main roads where traffic was a bit backed up due to a garbage truck performing it's duty. As oppurtunity presented itself, the cars behind the garbage truck started to pass the truck one by one. When it finally got down to only two cars remaining, me and some old lady, the progress had stopped, because she was fearful to pass. I eventually became flustered and passed both her and the garbage truck, after which I was pulled over for illegal passing and issued a citation by the local police. Since I felt the officer was wrong, I decided to fight. Within the court, I proved it was physically impossible to commit the crime for which I had been issued a citation. How did I proved it? Well, if I had committed the crime as stated, one of two things would have happened, either there would have been a head on collision or I would have run someone off the road, neither of which happened. The prosecution responded by dropping the charge and I was a happy guy. One week later, I got a new ticket and a new summons for a different charge, but this time the police officer commits perjury by falsifying information on the ticket, at which point I am totally screwed, because I could not prove he was lying. From there it was best for me to just make it go away, so I hired a worthless attorney to just plead me guilty, so I could pay my fine and be done with it.
if you had done each of those extra things beforehand that seemed to cause you to lose, would it have really made the outcomes any different?
The whole system is corrupt, civil or criminal, it does not matter. The best thing that a person can do is to educate themselves to refrain from activity that may drag them into court, and there are times when even that is not enough, as explained in the example above. Even if you are 100% in the right, the system has a way of twisting things.
Bruce
EDIT: After reflecting upon this post, I remembered something else worth noting. I learned a very valuable lesson with this case. By no means should you ever tip your hand before the actual proceedings begin. If I had presented my case in the proper sequence and with the proper decorum, I would most likely have prevailed without additional charges being filed, or so I have been told by a lawyer. At the time, the judge was so upset with me during my presentation, he threatened me with a contempt charge
EDIT: And if anyone is feeling real adventurous, look up (NAME RETRACTED) vs Bruce Drummond in the US District Court, State of Nevada. It was a case of an actual gold mine suing me for $97,000. It was hardly a fight, but I won that one. David vs Goliath. That case really screwed up my life for a while.
I think you are not going far enough. All code should first be submitted with a notary seal to parallax, with a signed affidavit with photo ID , have a staff of "inspectors" review it, issue a release form back to the poster. At that time the poster can post the snippet or full code. The inspector must googie seach for prior art, relevant keywords,and make a determination of postworthiness with their own legal department stamp of approval and waiver Each thread needs an additional set of tags added with a different color per tag. Red means this code is bubbling with legal implications. Yellow means proceed with caution... But be warned. Green is no problems, view, use, share all you want (kind of like an all you can eat buffet). An extra button is preprogrammed to forward the thread to your attorney for review. I am sure there are other measures that should be added but it is early.
I think you are not going far enough. All code should first be submitted with a notary seal to parallax, with a signed affidavit with photo ID , have a staff of "inspectors" review it, issue a release form back to the poster. At that time the poster can post the snippet or full code. The inspector must googie seach for prior art, relevant keywords,and make a determination of postworthiness with their own legal department stamp of approval and waiver Each thread needs an additional set of tags added with a different color per tag. Red means this code is bubbling with legal implications. Yellow means proceed with caution... But be warned. Green is no problems, view, use, share all you want (kind of like an all you can eat buffet). An extra button is preprogrammed to forward the thread to your attorney for review. I am sure there are other measures that should be added but it is early.
I assume everyone is wearing a belt AND suspenders (sorry, mates, I meant braces) when doing this?
Very few people actually pick up on that element of my username. Grannie, who came from that part of the world used it regularly. Being in Denver, Colorado at the time, nobody understood it, and there was no Internet / google / wiki type thing at the time either. Nice reference Chip! And yes, I did have a "Mr Potato Head" toy as a kid. Really liked it. Don't know why. Who does?
@Heater: Guilty as charged. The only thing I like more than words is NEW WORDS, because it is then of course time to set about using them, which leads to more words... Interestingly, I do very regularly get the "Your message is too short" every few days. Go figure. I say it's the Moderator Monkey's fault.
I'm trying to figure something out about MIT... Does anybody know:
Does the complete text of the license have to appear in every code file?
I've searched a bit and found people that say it can just be in a file called license.txt
Some say you don't have to say anything in the code and just point to the license file in a file called readme.txt
What I really would like to do is include a hyperlink to the MIT license text.
I've found a couple people saying you can do this, but it's not clear to me...
If you can, I think I'll just host the license as a file on my website somewhere...
If this is a valid way, maybe Parallax could host the license on their website somewhere too so that others could just link to it...
Okay, I realize that the red tag/green tag was way overboard
Here is the thing.... My intentions were never really selfish. I was attempting to stick up for Bill because I believed in his right to choose, I wanted to impart what little knowledge I had, I wanted to participate in a discussion which I find very interesting, and win or lose, I always love a good debate.
Most of us are not wealthy, and even though I did not state it above, when a major lawsuit is brought against you, it can destroy your life, literally, turn it upside down and inside out, especially if you do not have excess money to spend frivilously. Many times you can see a lawsuit coming a mile away, and others can show up at your door unexpectedly. I had one such lawsuit that completely destroyed my life, and through no fault of my own, I lost my future bride and everything I owned.
Comments
So then, let us have it then and for now trust Parallax is working hard to do us all a solid. Moving past this sausage as Phil so correctly put it is good for everybody.
I don't think badly of you, nor will I crow over having a position better aligned with the state of things, because those both are just meta. The fun stuff is inside the box with the Paralax logo on it, and personally on my desk waiting for some ugly work to complete so I can get to finishing it! That's where the meat is man, not this stuff. Not sure what other consideration I can grant you.
I don't believe anything was said about ignoring it. We're just choosing to not spend time in worrying over it. I'd quote myself from my previous post, because-- like I said-- I sometimes just write good stuff, but that may construed as proselytizing.
This isn't me slamming anyone in particular-- or even in general. Believe me, I'll slam myself well before anyone else, and if it's anyone else, it'll be everyone else, because I'm equal opportunity that way.
But really, isn't this like anything else on the forum? "Sure, we'll be glad to help you out, but it wouldn't hurt you to do your homework first..."?
Much of what I do is based upon design work. I spend a lot of time drafting, reviewing specs, etc.... It has been my experience that without a proper plan, failure is likely to happen. Since it is obvious that this policy is truly Parallax's objective, I stand behind it. I am just saying don't be to hasty, thoroughly define the objectives, devise a plan, and implement the plan. This will help ensure the success of the objectives. All I have seen so far is a statement of the new policy, but I have yet to see a strong structure to fully support it. I want Parallax to be successful, therefore, I would like to see the proper support. Think of me as the "inspector". Right now, I have issued a red tag, and I will most definitely issue a green tag when I approve of the structure. Not that Parallax needs or wants my approval, but when I give it the green tag, this new policy will have a much better structure. Planning is everything. Before diving into a body of water, you should always know what is below the surface.
What? So you want to take credit for triggering this train wreck. It was me I tell you, post #8 of the now notorious thread.
Yes, I'm joking. This whole debate is so depressing I don't think I can do anything but joke about it from now on. I'm sorry too.
Guys, we have a PII to do battle with. Chin up, best foot forward.
It was my standpoint.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?144677-Announcing-CLMM-(pronounced-as-Clem)-Execute-Code-from-the-CLUT&p=1151372&viewfull=1#post1151372
I am a hobbyist and don't really feel I need protection beyond the MIT license for either code I use that's licensed as such or code I produce that's licensed as such. If someone finds value in any code I post and wishes to use it, bless their hearts (and question their sanity). If I ever intend to create something that goes beyond my family or is something I'm compensated for, then I will investigate the licensing issues and make sure I have proper protection. Should I ever create code that manifests itself into the "next great thing", then it will not be posted here under the MIT license unless I'm feeling especially benevolent. Should I ever think I require something beyond the MIT license, then I will investigate further and act accordingly.
This is a public forum. I will try to conduct myself as I would in any public place (or my mother's parlor) and protect my property as I would in any public place.
I guess I'm back to not getting it. If I want to do something and it doesn't feel right, I won't do it. If I want to use something and it doesn't feel right, I won't use it!
I trust Chip and Ken to do the right thing. I trust the community as a whole to do the right thing. I'll play by the golden rule and will expect those I deal with to do the same. Should I get cheated, there's no shame on me, just shame on the cheater. They may benefit in the shot term but in the long term we're all dead and that's when it matters.
What am I missing??
Perhaps the easiest solution is to just bar attachments and limit text to 200 words or so.
Maybe everything would be fair use even if posted wrongly?
What, no more attached photos of projects and such? A photo is worth a thousand word you know, so quite a few lines of code might fit in there.
Even 200 words can hold a copyrighted work. The infamous DCSS code for unscrambling DVD's can be done in a hand full of lines: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2001/03/42259
Potatohead cannot make a post that short:)
The code that sparked of this whole debate is probably less than 10 Prop II PASM instructions.
There is no reasonable way to determine such limits.
Good point, but if we try to split too many hairs, we'll just go crazy.
Being fully informed on liabilities, you might not get out of bed in the morning.
I think the implied MIT license for original source code and snippets, going forward, is sufficient.
It was actually only 3, with a 4th being variable.
OMG U R rockin' the P2!
Let's try this again.....
Thanks, Chip, I can certainly live with that plan!
Here is Conway's game of life in APL:
life←{↑1 ⍵∨.∧3 4=+/,¯1 0 1∘.⊖¯1 0 1∘.⌽⊂⍵}...and you pick on Forth??? :0)
Okay, I will grant you that, nor do I want to honestly give "legal" advice. In fact, I honestly don't care, except that I want Parallax to succeed. The code I need is basically simple stuff for the most part, I am not into the fancy source code like some of the people here.
However, I would say that Parallax should value my opinion, because I have plans for the use of their products. Of course it is all speculative at this point, but their still are plans. Take for instance the attached photo, this product was designed over a year ago and is just waiting for the capital to back it up. Each one of these will require some type of microcontroller. This is just one example of several designs.
Additionally, it won't be long before I have the capital to back my products, and when I do get my capital, production of certain items will begin. It may not be a truckload of sales for Parallax, however I am sure it will be significant.
I value Parallax and I hope they value me as well. Sure I may be aggravating at times, but my intentions are good, unlike those that attack people within the forums.
Bruce
Maybe "new" would be a better term to use. Code being requoted would either have been originally posted before or after the Grand Edict, determining its MIT status. Remember, though, it could all come down to what the meaning of the word "is" is, in a court of law, even though none of us could afford to push it that far.
Not to pummel this oozing splitting sausage any further, but I was thinking about what you said earlier, idbruce, about loosing 99.9% of the time in legal proceedings because you hadn't done some requisite thing ahead of time. I wonder, if you had done each of those extra things beforehand that seemed to cause you to lose, would it have really made the outcomes any different? Certainly, the defendants' lawyers would have tried to convince your side that there was yet some other deficiency in your claim, and on and on it could go through unknown iterations of "if-only" scenarios. It's a lot harder for one side to prove something beyond dispute (perhaps impossible?) than it is for the other to discredit it in a hundred ways that will sound plausible. This left you blaming yourself, when you never could have "won", anyway, because you lacked the resources to achieve the Pyrrhic victory that is the only one possible. Just a thought. And, yes, we do appreciate your presence here, in case you were wondering. So does kartoffelkopf.
I hate courts and lawyers just like you. Even when you do everything right, they still find a way to make you bend over. Not that this particular instance applies to a civil case, but it proves my point and your point that the whole damn system is corrupt. I only tell this story, because I think it is a perfect example of the BS that exists. However, I still believe that knowledge and prevention is the best way to remain out of conflict.
I was on my way to work one morning, running perhaps a little late, when I hit one of the main roads where traffic was a bit backed up due to a garbage truck performing it's duty. As oppurtunity presented itself, the cars behind the garbage truck started to pass the truck one by one. When it finally got down to only two cars remaining, me and some old lady, the progress had stopped, because she was fearful to pass. I eventually became flustered and passed both her and the garbage truck, after which I was pulled over for illegal passing and issued a citation by the local police. Since I felt the officer was wrong, I decided to fight. Within the court, I proved it was physically impossible to commit the crime for which I had been issued a citation. How did I proved it? Well, if I had committed the crime as stated, one of two things would have happened, either there would have been a head on collision or I would have run someone off the road, neither of which happened. The prosecution responded by dropping the charge and I was a happy guy. One week later, I got a new ticket and a new summons for a different charge, but this time the police officer commits perjury by falsifying information on the ticket, at which point I am totally screwed, because I could not prove he was lying. From there it was best for me to just make it go away, so I hired a worthless attorney to just plead me guilty, so I could pay my fine and be done with it.
The whole system is corrupt, civil or criminal, it does not matter. The best thing that a person can do is to educate themselves to refrain from activity that may drag them into court, and there are times when even that is not enough, as explained in the example above. Even if you are 100% in the right, the system has a way of twisting things.
Bruce
EDIT: After reflecting upon this post, I remembered something else worth noting. I learned a very valuable lesson with this case. By no means should you ever tip your hand before the actual proceedings begin. If I had presented my case in the proper sequence and with the proper decorum, I would most likely have prevailed without additional charges being filed, or so I have been told by a lawyer. At the time, the judge was so upset with me during my presentation, he threatened me with a contempt charge
EDIT: And if anyone is feeling real adventurous, look up (NAME RETRACTED) vs Bruce Drummond in the US District Court, State of Nevada. It was a case of an actual gold mine suing me for $97,000. It was hardly a fight, but I won that one. David vs Goliath. That case really screwed up my life for a while.
Would be a real choir to edit every file on my website though...
I assume everyone is wearing a belt AND suspenders (sorry, mates, I meant braces) when doing this?
Very few people actually pick up on that element of my username. Grannie, who came from that part of the world used it regularly. Being in Denver, Colorado at the time, nobody understood it, and there was no Internet / google / wiki type thing at the time either. Nice reference Chip! And yes, I did have a "Mr Potato Head" toy as a kid. Really liked it. Don't know why. Who does?
@Heater: Guilty as charged. The only thing I like more than words is NEW WORDS, because it is then of course time to set about using them, which leads to more words...
@Bruce, you are among friends.
Does the complete text of the license have to appear in every code file?
I've searched a bit and found people that say it can just be in a file called license.txt
Some say you don't have to say anything in the code and just point to the license file in a file called readme.txt
What I really would like to do is include a hyperlink to the MIT license text.
I've found a couple people saying you can do this, but it's not clear to me...
If you can, I think I'll just host the license as a file on my website somewhere...
If this is a valid way, maybe Parallax could host the license on their website somewhere too so that others could just link to it...
Here is the thing.... My intentions were never really selfish. I was attempting to stick up for Bill because I believed in his right to choose, I wanted to impart what little knowledge I had, I wanted to participate in a discussion which I find very interesting, and win or lose, I always love a good debate.
Most of us are not wealthy, and even though I did not state it above, when a major lawsuit is brought against you, it can destroy your life, literally, turn it upside down and inside out, especially if you do not have excess money to spend frivilously. Many times you can see a lawsuit coming a mile away, and others can show up at your door unexpectedly. I had one such lawsuit that completely destroyed my life, and through no fault of my own, I lost my future bride and everything I owned.
Just be careful.
Bruce
You mean like the link to the MIT license at Parallax in the first post of this thread by Ken.