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Code licensing requirements - please read our new rules! — Parallax Forums

Code licensing requirements - please read our new rules!

Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
edited 2013-01-01 10:25 in Propeller 1
To All Forum Members,

Today we are formalizing our rules about posting code in OBEX and sharing it on the forums. Our rules are very simple:
  • Code uploaded to OBEX and the web forum complies with the MIT license, whether expressly included, or not.
  • Code snippets, of the type typically quoted in the forum software [code] tag, are to be treated as MIT licensed, minus the requirement to include the license text and mandatory attribution. The function of the forum software provides adequate attribution in the majority of cases. We leave it to the good will of the community to resolve other cases amicably.
Variations of the MIT license exist, the one we refer to is here: http://obex.parallax.com/license/

If you are putting code on the forums, you are comfortable sharing it without restrictions. We share code because we enjoy doing so and helping others with their projects. Customers place a very high value on Parallax forums and we want to maintain an open atmosphere in which ideas are freely exchanged.

Parallax will not be a catalyst for legal threats, implied or present. Our customers find little value in any distractions from achieving their product designs and being the first to market. To this end, we don't want the forums to be a place of confusion when it comes to using code examples. Our forums should remain free of protective claims so we can openly share and reach our objectives.

We also have concerns about the impact of other licenses as they relate to our own efforts. For example, the forum members are actively developing their own unofficial Propeller 2 documentation; the GCC team is working towards a GCC port for Propeller 2; cross-platform, open-source programming IDEs and compilers are in the works; and Propeller 2 AppNotes will be developed prior to release. All of these efforts must freely use the best coding tricks available, without restriction. And these efforts will evolve openly on the forums.

Attribution and recognition is part of our environment. All forum members are encouraged to recognize those who helped them with their code. We have trust that people will follow this simple etiquette and recognize contributors.

Our last point is probably obvious, but for the Propeller 2 to prosper, this kind of policy is necessary. Considering the many years of intellectual investment of Chip, Beau and the whole Propeller 2 team on these forums (not to mention the financial cost) let's increase the opportunity for a success.

Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,

Ken Gracey
«134567

Comments

  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-18 20:02
    Hi Ken.

    No problems for me on that
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2012-12-18 20:13
    While I don't agree with having an implied license on forum postings of source code, I understand your intent and position. It's really annoying that things came to this...

    I wish we could have kept it as source code postings on the forums have no license implied, and if you want one then include it in the posting.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-12-18 20:18
    Thanks for stating it so clearly, Ken.

    No objections here.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2012-12-18 20:19
    Perfectly good and fine with me too, glad to see an official statement in this regard. Yes, it is simple etiquette that we need to observe while quietly remembering that the forum exists and prospers because of Parallax, both as a company and of their technology, and of their peculiar openness in a dog-eat-dog corporate world. As us Aussies say "Good on ya".
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-18 20:53
    The MIT license relieves the author of liability and grants the recipient free use to do what he wants with the code. If there is to be any license policy, this seems like the best fit, as it enables the freest sharing and simplifies everyone's accountability. I think the MIT license reflects the ethos we've all been operating by for a long time here, anyway. This new posting rule just codifies it.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-12-18 21:04
    Seems fair and sensible to me. I'm happy.
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2012-12-18 21:10
    Thank you. Does this apply retroactively to posts in the past?
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 3,709
    edited 2012-12-18 21:16
    exactly @Chip and @Ken.

    Thank you for stating that.

    Now back to work!

    Mike
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-18 21:23
    SRLM wrote: »
    Thank you. Does this apply retroactively to posts in the past?

    It cannot, as previous posts were made prior to the MIT policy.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2012-12-18 21:25
    SRLM wrote: »
    Thank you. Does this apply retroactively to posts in the past?

    You ask tough questions, Cody.

    I don't think it's fair for us to be retroactive with our rules, so "no". Fozzie Bear might have something to say, too.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-12-18 21:28
    Thanks for clearly laying out a policy. I'm fine with it.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-12-18 21:29
    It is a shame it had to come to this. However, it is now clearly stated for all to see and understand. I wholeheartedly agree. This forum is what it is because of this openness, and to do anything else would have been a tragedy.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2012-12-18 21:33
    Ken & Chip,

    I appreciate the kind words in my thread, it is gratifying that you not only understood that I never intended anything untoward, but would say so in my thread.

    Now everyone knows that in the future if they want to post some non-MIT code, they should just post a link to it hosted somewhere else.

    Thanks again,

    Bill
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-18 21:33
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    It is a shame it had to come to this. However, it is now clearly stated for all to see and understand. I wholeheartedly agree. This forum is what it is because of this openness, and to do anything else would have been a tragedy.

    Both you and Roy said is was too bad it had to come to this, but why? I don't see it as really a change, at all, just a clarification. It's not like everyone's going to have to attach MIT license text to every code snippet and we'll be forever scrolling past it. So, why is it troubling?
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-12-18 21:44
    cgracey wrote: »
    Both you and Roy said is was too bad it had to come to this, but why? I don't see it as really a change, at all, just a clarification. It's not like everyone's going to have to attach MIT license text to every code snippet and we'll be forever scrolling past it. So, why is it troubling?
    I only meant regarding the discussion that ensued. So now we have clarification for all, and this is a good thing.

    FWIW I declare all my previous code postings (including spreadsheets, etc) are MIT so anyone is free to do with them what they like. I had assumed, that without stating anything to the contrary, that my code postings were completely open.
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,983
    edited 2012-12-18 21:46
    My personal thanks to the Parallax team for this action. I am still very much a learner of many things on this forum and have learned a great deal from both new users and masters alike. Watching the license thread of the last few days was like watching the lee hull go under on a hard reach and wondering if it will come back up. I can't imagine the amount of sharing of ideas and methods (hardware and software) that has gone long before I started (and have benefited greatly from) using this device continuing in an environment of licensing FUD. Since I can no longer leave the day job without a significant hit to lifestyle, my development efforts will remain largely of the spare bedroom/garage enterprise ;) For now the MIT suits me just fine, if down the road something comes along (besides the lottery)......

    Thank you for a solid product with the best of support for the most users.

    Frank
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-18 22:10
    Thanks for solidifying what we do here and preserving the value of it. Means a lot to me.

    Re: That ugly licensing discussion. No harm, no foul. Seriously, it's a discussion that needed to be had, and having it means speaking our minds, whatever that is. Can't fault anyone for that.

    Small bits of code have been troublesome for many people. Some ignore the problem, some blanket license, some require registration and legal. IMHO, the policy here is equitable, practical, sensible. We all can work together with no worries.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-18 22:14
    Ken & Chip,

    I appreciate the kind words in my thread, it is gratifying that you not only understood that I never intended anything untoward, but would say so in my thread.

    Now everyone knows that in the future if they want to post some non-MIT code, they should just post a link to it hosted somewhere else.

    Thanks again,

    Bill

    You bet, Bill!

    I guess somebody needed to bring this whole issue to a head, at some point, and you turned out to be THAT guy. Thanks for going through it all. I hope any GI distress is now abating.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-18 22:51
    Bill I think extremely highly of you. Please feel no angst over anything said, know that was never my personal intent.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-12-18 22:54
    Phew!

    There's a saying that, if you like sausage, you don't want to see it being made. This process was certainly no exception! Yet, for better or wurst, I think we've come to a good place in forum history. Profuse good thanks to Ken and Chip for doing the necessary codification, to Bill Henning for patiently enduring the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, to ctwardell for broaching the question in the first place, to idbruce for his role as the "loyal opposition", and to everyone else who contributed, painful though some of it may have been.

    Now I really should go back to make sure I'm not copying something that Heater already posted, but screw it: he'll understand. :)

    'Time to get back to work, boys and girls!

    -Phil
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2012-12-18 23:08
    Chip & Ken,
    As I said before I understand your position on this, I am just bummed that we had to come to doing it. These forums have gone along just fine for years without it. I liked it better when we didn't worry about it, and didn't have to, but I guess now we have to.

    In any case, MIT license is perfectly acceptable to me. It's what I use for everything I have control over choosing the license on.

    Also, for what it's worth, I am sorry for whatever grief I may have caused Bill (or anyone else) with my postings on the license related threads.

    Roy
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-18 23:30
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    Chip & Ken,
    As I said before I understand your position on this, I am just bummed that we had to come to doing it. These forums have gone along just fine for years without it. I liked it better when we didn't worry about it, and didn't have to, but I guess now we have to.

    In any case, MIT license is perfectly acceptable to me. It's what I use for everything I have control over choosing the license on.

    Also, for what it's worth, I am sorry for whatever grief I may have caused Bill (or anyone else) with my postings on the license related threads.

    Roy

    But, isn't is better to have some known-good licensing status than none at all, to dispel what Frank called "FUD" (fear, uncertainty, and doubt)? I also think that by making people recognize that they are giving by their own free will and receiving with no strings attached, a happier attitude is fostered and there is less opportunity for bad feelings to develop. What is there to worry about?
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-18 23:41
    Hi Chip.

    Sorry as I need say that.

    For some people it is problem -- Can't claim that it is theirs work.

    cgracey wrote: »
    But, isn't is better to have some known-good licensing status than none at all, to dispel what Frank called "FUD" (fear, uncertainty, and doubt)? I also think that by making people recognize that they are giving by their own free will and receiving with no strings attached, a happier attitude is fostered and there is less opportunity for bad feelings to develop. What is there to worry about?
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2012-12-18 23:42
    Chip,
    Yeah, that's probably true. I just think about times long past when everyone shared stuff freely and there was no license Smile at all. Like back in the 80s when I was learning to programs, or before.

    Honestly, if it were up to me, all software would be completely free of any license, patent, or restrictions. Software is just not that hard or even that innovative. Without the hardware giving it life, software is nothing. There's really not anything new in software other than things enabled by new hardware. Yes, I say that being a guy that makes a living off of writing software...
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-18 23:44
    Happy times then. Totally understand that sentiment Roy.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,155
    edited 2012-12-19 00:34
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    Chip,
    Yeah, that's probably true. I just think about times long past when everyone shared stuff freely and there was no license Smile at all. Like back in the 80s when I was learning to programs, or before...

    I agree with you, but nowadays some prophylactic is required to keep the lawyer mentality from crashing the party. The MIT license rolls the social contract back to what it was when we were young. It has no practical effect on how we enjoy our work.
  • RossHRossH Posts: 5,462
    edited 2012-12-19 01:04
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    Honestly, if it were up to me, all software would be completely free of any license, patent, or restrictions. Software is just not that hard or even that innovative. Without the hardware giving it life, software is nothing. There's really not anything new in software other than things enabled by new hardware. Yes, I say that being a guy that makes a living off of writing software...

    *sigh*
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-19 01:07
    Hi.

    Say that to Microsoft --- So we not need pay them that much for theirs.

    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    Chip,
    Yeah, that's probably true. I just think about times long past when everyone shared stuff freely and there was no license Smile at all. Like back in the 80s when I was learning to programs, or before.

    Honestly, if it were up to me, all software would be completely free of any license, patent, or restrictions. Software is just not that hard or even that innovative. Without the hardware giving it life, software is nothing. There's really not anything new in software other than things enabled by new hardware. Yes, I say that being a guy that makes a living off of writing software...
  • ErNaErNa Posts: 1,752
    edited 2012-12-19 01:18
    Hi all,
    I was not aware of the discussion but I'm glad there is EOD. We are always in the conflict of giving and taking. Billie Holiday: "God Bless The Child" tells the story. But here in this forum it is like entering in a forest and the question is: build a ship, build a house or create a little piece of art work. But one thing is clear: You can not make use of all that is given for free. You are limited by yourself. The value of any contribution always comes from the fact that it is cheaper do by then to make if the contribution has a value.
    ErNa
    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Maya calendar comes to an end, if will be now AP][
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2012-12-19 04:54
    I am happy with this new policy.

    If you make money by writing software (and I have done this in the past) it would make more sense to post a small piece of code that is useful. Then have a comment that the public can license (or buy) the fully implemented code in private.

    It was kind of silly to have to include the license text in everything posted, when the rule was that you couldn't post any code that didn't include the license.

    Bean
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