It's not that we can't say mirror, it's just that we're lazy speakers. What's wrong with that? You'd be complaining about 'gonna' vs. 'going to' except that you're lazy too.
BTW, I love and use 'loo' and 'queue' almost exclusively. It's silly to speak of a 'bathroom' when most public bathrooms have no bath. OTOH, toilet is too vulgar and explicit, plus it's not always accurate. Perhaps I simply need to blow my nose or wash my hands. Meanwhile, 'lavatory' is just too much word even though it's very appropriate.
OTOH, I will never cotton to the expression 'drum kit' when there's already a perfectly appropriate 'drum set.' Same with 'tuck,' when 'food' and 'chow' are just as easy to say, and a lot less likely to be misheard.
OTOH, toilet is too vulgar and explicit, plus it's not always accurate.
I worked in Tokyo for 3 months in 1995. Awesome place to visit, especially when you're on the company's dime and there were 240 yen to the dollar. Four Americans working with 4 Japanese. I was the only one who studied the language at all, I could get by pretty well with my Barron's phrase book. We had a professional interpreter who was shocked to find that the word for toilet in my book was "benjo", which apparently is slang for crapper or worse. She said to always use "toilet" (pronounced toy-ray) instead, NEVER use benjo. Didn't work. In subsequent opportunities, when I was wandering on my own throughout Japan, only one person in ten understood "toilet". Most people had no idea what I was asking for. But they all happily pointed me in the right direction (without great offense, AFAIK) once I caved and asked for the benjo.
There's a time and a place for polite formailties, but not when you're dancing around looking for a bathroom in an unfamiliar place.
After years now of watching imported British TV shows - Midsomer Murders, Foyle's War, whatever. - the idioms and pronunciation are so ingrained I don't even notice them anymore. I've even become an expert on calculating predecimalized currency. However, a few idioms, like 'kip,' 'smalls,' or 'council flat,' took a while to figure out.
I ain't gonna say nuthin much about that ther British Inglish. I jus don't understand it. They mumble and jumble and never get to the point.
And those Aussies are even worse. Put a roo on the barbie?
CNN has been taken over by the British. They even replaced Larry King with a Brit that now speaks 'for all Americans'. Even stranger is Al Jerez News' English broadcaste is all Aussies.
They mumble and jumble and never get to the point.
That is true. It's our way of avoiding conflict or any other unpleasantness. If we talk around and around instead of straight then the other side cannot tell if they should disagree or not:)
Most polititians around the world learn this technique somehow but for Brits it's natural. Well except those from Scotland or the north of England:)
Just because politicians do something doesn't make that right. But of course, they think they always know what's best.
Having formally taught English as a second language for nearly two decades, I am completely convinced that the structure of the language is intended to confuse and bully non-native speakers and less educated native speakers into agreeing to nearly anything.
I actually was enrolled in graduate studies in teaching English at the University of Edinburg. Scots are rahter delightful. But I guess they will be leaving the U.K. soon.
I am completely convinced that the structure of the language is intended to confuse and bully non-native speakers and less educated native speakers into agreeing to nearly anything
You might have to elaborate on that, perhaps with some examples, as I don't see it at all.
I used to know a guy who was teaching English to Finnish engineers working at Nokia. He was from Northern Ireland and half the time I found it really hard to follow what he was saying. I wondered how those engineers got on with it.
English has the verb, the past tense, and the past participle. Combine that with past participle with 'have' and you have the Perfect - Past perfect, Present perfect, and Future perfect. Now take a nice and simple language like Chinese with NO inflected verbs, it all gets rather complex to identify a verb such as go, went, gone, and going.
Then if you take the use of the conditional - such as "If I were a frog, I would eat flies' and you have to explain why use 'were' with I. This opens up the whole world of opposite meaning of the "Unreal" backshift of grammar versus the "Real" Or saying "I am a student today" versus "I wish I were a student today".
As if that were not enough, we can add another layer of backshift by reported speach. Instead of "I am a student today", he said he was a student today. And then combine the reported and the unreal to have -- he said he wish he had been a student today; (or is it "He said he wish he were a student today"?).
That's most of it in a nutshell and why most of the world achieves only a pidgin English or a Creole English. The grammar is bonkers.
Actually verbs in English have between 3 and 8 different forms, depending upon the verb - Be has the 8 forms = be, am, is, are, was, were, being, been.
The funny thing is that the places abroad that really learned British English all seem to have had one thing in common. When they were British colonies, all the laws were in English. The Philipenes seems to have also done well because the American colonist enforced law in English.
But Taiwan has never had to deal with a British or an American colonial authority imposing law in English, so they lag behind. The Japanese may have been occupied by the USA, but trying to use English in downtown Tokyo is very awkward. The Japanese are very polite, but often extremely fearful the speak.
In the 1990s everyone in Taiwan wanted to learn English because they thought it would create opportunities. But now they just want their kids to learn.
I am completely convinced that the structure of the language is intended to confuse and bully non-native speakers and less educated native speakers into agreeing to nearly anything.
Maybe that's because what we know of as English today is a conglomeration of words contributed by a number of "non-native speakers" who bullied their way through the British isles? Angles, Saxons, Danes (of numerous types), Normans, Romans, etc. Linguistically, everybody seems to have left their "betterment" to the language.
English is actually a relatively new language and has always been somewhat of a mutt language. Didn't the French occupy England for nearly a hundred years at one time - so you have words from both.
I gotta go. I think I'll put a kettle on.
Not sure what 'their betterment' means, but I can guess.......
Now take a nice and simple language like Chinese with NO inflected verbs, it all gets rather complex to identify a verb such as go, went, gone, and going.
That _is_ quite complex compared to some languages - fortunately for me Norwegian has those forms, plus one more, so it's a reasonably straight forward mapping.
Then if you take the use of the conditional - such as "If I were a frog, I would eat flies'
.. but we don't have that one. There is one tricky form in Italian which I have only a vague understanding of, it goes something along a difference between "If I were a Civil Engineer", which is something possible (as I'm a "non-Civil" Engineer already so there's always the possibility to get there) vs. "If I were an astronaut" (or maybe "frog" would work better) which is an unlikely variant. I'm not entirely sure of the details but there are different verb forms or something. It's been 15 years since I started to figure that out from the Italian texts I was reading at the time. There are some Italian members on this forum, feel free to correct and educate me on that one!
Actually verbs in English have between 3 and 8 different forms, depending upon the verb - Be has the 8 forms = be, am, is, are, was, were, being, been.
Then there's Italian again.. my Italian Verbs book lists 15 forms for every verb, except for those with 25 forms, and there are a few with 30 forms too. That's partly because there's a different variant for I, you, they, he and so on, except for the past forms.
Languages are lots of fun. English is a strange one in many ways. With its own charm. I have this pet theory that one reason English actually works as an international language is that even if you butcher the grammar the meaning basically stays the same. 'I is home' is grammatically wrong, but the meaning is clear. While, in e.g. Italian, if you mean to say 'I am stupid' and use the incorrect verb form you end up saying, with great precision, that someone else is stupid..
The best thing about the American language is how it is made from so many other parts. There is a little bit of everywhere in it. If you can speak and understand American you can probably get by just about anywhere. The thing is, most Americans don't fully comprehend it or use it correctly. When I first moved to Mississippi, I had a couple of people working with me that I honestly could not understand more than about every third word they spoke. I figured decided I was doomed if I ever had to find work overseas.
Loopy, one thing to remember is that natural languages are not designed, they're the products of evolution and niche isolation. Unlike in computer languages, their rules of grammar are derived from usage, not the other way around. So there's no linguistic conspiracy to confuse non-native speakers. It's just the collateral damage of a naturally-occurring process.
Loopy, one thing to remember is that natural languages are not designed, they're the products of evolution and niche isolation. Unlike in computer languages, their rules of grammar are derived from usage, not the other way around. So there's no linguistic conspiracy to confuse non-native speakers. It's just the collateral damage of a naturally-occurring process.
What on earth do you mean by "Britishisms" as if it's some branch of English like American English or Australian English? That's just English guys speaking their own a language, English. They are free to define it how they like, after all they are English.
When I went to High School (in Australia) you were able to choose what elective English class you wanted. You could choose Australian English, American English and English English. Each one had its own novels and poetry to study. And struth be told I chose Aussie of course... only those "A sandwich short of a picnic" would chose anything else....
Loopy, one thing to remember is that natural languages are not designed, they're the products of evolution and niche isolation. Unlike in computer languages, their rules of grammar are derived from usage, not the other way around. So there's no linguistic conspiracy to confuse non-native speakers. It's just the collateral damage of a naturally-occurring process.
-Phil
Right you are about natural languages - national languages are designed, such as British English. On the other hand, there is no official language for the USA and American English is a wildly democratic conglomeration.
When you get a national identity mixed up with language, culture, food, or just about anything - some group of overlords wants to impose a standard on everyone they can reach. Thus, I tease the British about their English. But natural language is very much negotiated on the spot between two people that have no vested interest in a national identity.
Nobody caught on when I suggested "Mid-Atlantic" English. This was a term used for half-American/half-British English that was suppose to solve everything.
The Taiwanese tend to learn British grammar with American phonology and lexicon. It is just too complex for Asians to sort out all those big words that the British prefer and their mumbles.
Nobody caught on when I suggested "Mid-Atlantic" English. This was a term used for half-American/half-British English that was suppose to solve everything.
Ahhhhh, as spoken by the citizens of Greenland!!! :0)
Yes I was wondering how many English speakers there are living in the middle of the ocean.
Phil,
So there's no linguistic conspiracy to confuse non-native speakers. It's just the collateral damage of a naturally-occurring process.
Magic, That is a phrase to remember. It can be adapted to so many situations where a conspiracy theory is suggested.
Loopy,
...national languages are designed, such as British English
Not exactly.
What I see is that they emerge by that "naturally occurring" process., perhaps in a messy way like English. Then at some point someone tries to standardize it. In England it was Dr Johnson's "A Dictionary of the English Language" http://A Dictionary of the English Language
The latter is a bit odd because it uses the letter "c" in the title but he did a good job of purging "C" from the language, along with "q" and others. To this day the only word in normal Finnish dictionaries starting with "c" is "celsius" which is an imported word.
I'm sure other languages have been through this standardization process.
attemps to standardize a language can only be a snapshot of how the author (mis?) percived the language at that moment. the only way to get a natural language stable is to ensure nobody speaks it, as with latin.
the only way to get a natural language stable is to ensure nobody speaks it, as with latin.
Don't be so sure about that. When I first landed in Finland I used to have a radio alarm clock wake me up with some news in English from the national radio channel. When the English news had finished they would announce "And now the news in classical latin". And so it was, news in latin for 15 minutes. I have not checked for a while but I believe this is still happening.
Then when I went to a dentist, I knew no Finnish at all, her English was good but she got stuck describing a dental problem in English so it came out in latin. OK, no problem, I know hardly any latin but it was enough.
Comments
BTW, I love and use 'loo' and 'queue' almost exclusively. It's silly to speak of a 'bathroom' when most public bathrooms have no bath. OTOH, toilet is too vulgar and explicit, plus it's not always accurate. Perhaps I simply need to blow my nose or wash my hands. Meanwhile, 'lavatory' is just too much word even though it's very appropriate.
OTOH, I will never cotton to the expression 'drum kit' when there's already a perfectly appropriate 'drum set.' Same with 'tuck,' when 'food' and 'chow' are just as easy to say, and a lot less likely to be misheard.
I worked in Tokyo for 3 months in 1995. Awesome place to visit, especially when you're on the company's dime and there were 240 yen to the dollar. Four Americans working with 4 Japanese. I was the only one who studied the language at all, I could get by pretty well with my Barron's phrase book. We had a professional interpreter who was shocked to find that the word for toilet in my book was "benjo", which apparently is slang for crapper or worse. She said to always use "toilet" (pronounced toy-ray) instead, NEVER use benjo. Didn't work. In subsequent opportunities, when I was wandering on my own throughout Japan, only one person in ten understood "toilet". Most people had no idea what I was asking for. But they all happily pointed me in the right direction (without great offense, AFAIK) once I caved and asked for the benjo.
There's a time and a place for polite formailties, but not when you're dancing around looking for a bathroom in an unfamiliar place.
heheh that computer is Fit !
also had a Turkish team too..
agian So much fun !
-- Gordon
And those Aussies are even worse. Put a roo on the barbie?
CNN has been taken over by the British. They even replaced Larry King with a Brit that now speaks 'for all Americans'. Even stranger is Al Jerez News' English broadcaste is all Aussies.
That is true. It's our way of avoiding conflict or any other unpleasantness. If we talk around and around instead of straight then the other side cannot tell if they should disagree or not:)
Most polititians around the world learn this technique somehow but for Brits it's natural. Well except those from Scotland or the north of England:)
Having formally taught English as a second language for nearly two decades, I am completely convinced that the structure of the language is intended to confuse and bully non-native speakers and less educated native speakers into agreeing to nearly anything.
I actually was enrolled in graduate studies in teaching English at the University of Edinburg. Scots are rahter delightful. But I guess they will be leaving the U.K. soon.
You might have to elaborate on that, perhaps with some examples, as I don't see it at all.
I used to know a guy who was teaching English to Finnish engineers working at Nokia. He was from Northern Ireland and half the time I found it really hard to follow what he was saying. I wondered how those engineers got on with it.
Then if you take the use of the conditional - such as "If I were a frog, I would eat flies' and you have to explain why use 'were' with I. This opens up the whole world of opposite meaning of the "Unreal" backshift of grammar versus the "Real" Or saying "I am a student today" versus "I wish I were a student today".
As if that were not enough, we can add another layer of backshift by reported speach. Instead of "I am a student today", he said he was a student today. And then combine the reported and the unreal to have -- he said he wish he had been a student today; (or is it "He said he wish he were a student today"?).
That's most of it in a nutshell and why most of the world achieves only a pidgin English or a Creole English. The grammar is bonkers.
Actually verbs in English have between 3 and 8 different forms, depending upon the verb - Be has the 8 forms = be, am, is, are, was, were, being, been.
Bean
I hope someone in England has a really big basement...
C.W.
But Taiwan has never had to deal with a British or an American colonial authority imposing law in English, so they lag behind. The Japanese may have been occupied by the USA, but trying to use English in downtown Tokyo is very awkward. The Japanese are very polite, but often extremely fearful the speak.
In the 1990s everyone in Taiwan wanted to learn English because they thought it would create opportunities. But now they just want their kids to learn.
Maybe that's because what we know of as English today is a conglomeration of words contributed by a number of "non-native speakers" who bullied their way through the British isles? Angles, Saxons, Danes (of numerous types), Normans, Romans, etc. Linguistically, everybody seems to have left their "betterment" to the language.
I gotta go. I think I'll put a kettle on.
Not sure what 'their betterment' means, but I can guess.......
.. but we don't have that one. There is one tricky form in Italian which I have only a vague understanding of, it goes something along a difference between "If I were a Civil Engineer", which is something possible (as I'm a "non-Civil" Engineer already so there's always the possibility to get there) vs. "If I were an astronaut" (or maybe "frog" would work better) which is an unlikely variant. I'm not entirely sure of the details but there are different verb forms or something. It's been 15 years since I started to figure that out from the Italian texts I was reading at the time. There are some Italian members on this forum, feel free to correct and educate me on that one!
Then there's Italian again.. my Italian Verbs book lists 15 forms for every verb, except for those with 25 forms, and there are a few with 30 forms too. That's partly because there's a different variant for I, you, they, he and so on, except for the past forms.
Languages are lots of fun. English is a strange one in many ways. With its own charm. I have this pet theory that one reason English actually works as an international language is that even if you butcher the grammar the meaning basically stays the same. 'I is home' is grammatically wrong, but the meaning is clear. While, in e.g. Italian, if you mean to say 'I am stupid' and use the incorrect verb form you end up saying, with great precision, that someone else is stupid..
DO...LOUPE
FOR...NEXTE
NAPPE
PARDON 20 (pause 20)
RCTYME
READE
LOWE 3
ENDE
CHAMBERPOT (pot)
DEBOLLIX (debug)
Loopy, one thing to remember is that natural languages are not designed, they're the products of evolution and niche isolation. Unlike in computer languages, their rules of grammar are derived from usage, not the other way around. So there's no linguistic conspiracy to confuse non-native speakers. It's just the collateral damage of a naturally-occurring process.
-Phil
I will be sure to use this the next time my kids ask me why their English class is such a drudge to deal with.
Phil just described Forth!! :0)
erco +1
When I went to High School (in Australia) you were able to choose what elective English class you wanted. You could choose Australian English, American English and English English. Each one had its own novels and poetry to study. And struth be told I chose Aussie of course... only those "A sandwich short of a picnic" would chose anything else....
Right you are about natural languages - national languages are designed, such as British English. On the other hand, there is no official language for the USA and American English is a wildly democratic conglomeration.
When you get a national identity mixed up with language, culture, food, or just about anything - some group of overlords wants to impose a standard on everyone they can reach. Thus, I tease the British about their English. But natural language is very much negotiated on the spot between two people that have no vested interest in a national identity.
Nobody caught on when I suggested "Mid-Atlantic" English. This was a term used for half-American/half-British English that was suppose to solve everything.
The Taiwanese tend to learn British grammar with American phonology and lexicon. It is just too complex for Asians to sort out all those big words that the British prefer and their mumbles.
Ahhhhh, as spoken by the citizens of Greenland!!! :0)
Phil, Magic, That is a phrase to remember. It can be adapted to so many situations where a conspiracy theory is suggested.
Loopy, Not exactly.
What I see is that they emerge by that "naturally occurring" process., perhaps in a messy way like English. Then at some point someone tries to standardize it. In England it was Dr Johnson's "A Dictionary of the English Language" http://A Dictionary of the English Language
In Finland it was the "father of the Finnish written language" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Agricola with is book "Abckiria"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abckiria
The latter is a bit odd because it uses the letter "c" in the title but he did a good job of purging "C" from the language, along with "q" and others. To this day the only word in normal Finnish dictionaries starting with "c" is "celsius" which is an imported word.
I'm sure other languages have been through this standardization process.
Don't be so sure about that. When I first landed in Finland I used to have a radio alarm clock wake me up with some news in English from the national radio channel. When the English news had finished they would announce "And now the news in classical latin". And so it was, news in latin for 15 minutes. I have not checked for a while but I believe this is still happening.
Then when I went to a dentist, I knew no Finnish at all, her English was good but she got stuck describing a dental problem in English so it came out in latin. OK, no problem, I know hardly any latin but it was enough.