Thanks for the link Erco; that was interesting. I hate to say it, but I've been adjusted, socio-techonogically-speaking. Don't like that.
Back to the original topic...I'd be more interested in purchasing an EV if they weren't so loaded down with gizmos and things I don't want in a vehicle. Also, providing 200MPH per charge would be nice.
that electric car is only as green as how that electricity was produced ( if you are charging via a electric generator that's coal operated that doesn't really help much does it ?? [that's a question]).
that electric car is only as green as how that electricity was produced ( if you are charging via a electric generator that's coal operated that doesn't really help much does it ?? [that's a question]).
From what I've heard an electric car getting its electricity from a coal fired plan is still greener than a gasoline car. The reason is that electric motors are significantly more efficient than gas engines, and regenerative breaking allows the electric car to retain energy the regular car loses to heat.
From what I've heard an electric car getting its electricity from a coal fired plan is still greener than a gasoline car. The reason is that electric motors are significantly more efficient than gas engines, and regenerative breaking allows the electric car to retain energy the regular car loses to heat.
Its a valid but misunderstood argument ,,
EVs are cleaner On the mean whole ........
EG Iowa , got a good chunk of its Juce from wind. so its Verly Local dependent .
this is a pipe dream but most houses have enough Roof to put in 20 KW of PV . and 20 KW PV is more then enough to charge a EV .
Lets just Blow 200 K and get a tesla car and a Grid tie 20 KW system and then you are golden .)
( BTW PV is NOT clean ! . the porc to make slilcon boules and spin them takes a TON of power that comes from ........ more fossls so you cant escape it really ,,,,,,,,,,,,, the copper to make a Alternator to spin in a dam is refined by electricty .)
Its the lesser of evils in the end.. and really what is clean for one scale is not allwas on a larger or smaller scale .
a Coal plant for what it puts out is far more clean then the 1 KW Genset at the tool store .
the isseu with Batts is a second point to discuss.
PBA AGMs ( aka what is often called incorrectly as Gel Cells ) ( mind it does have a nice ring to it ! )
are upwards of 80% recycelble ! ( the RBRC has more info on this )
NICds are toixc ( Cd is nasty ! ) however ! NiMH is Very clean , Nickle is used in med inplants .
the Metal Hydride is Copper mesh with carbon and some infused H2 .
David James .. :
Its SO SO SO easy to do a conversion ,, WHy no just do one !?
that electric car is only as green as how that electricity was produced ( if you are charging via a electric generator that's coal operated that doesn't really help much does it ?? [that's a question]).
A big factor is economies of scale in the generation of electricity. While a coal fired power plant is dirty, it's not nearly as dirty as the equivalent amount of energy being generated by 100 horsepower IC engines. The coal plant can put in scrubbers and achieve a conversion efficiency a plant that will fit in a car can only dream of. Add to this the advantages of needing less horsepower and regenerative braking, and electric powered by coal is still significantly better than gasoline IC drive.
Only a few years ago we used to pay that (US$ and Australia $ are about the same), but then the government decided to sell the electricity supply and now it is a company registered in the Bahamas and owned by someone in Hong Kong. This year they put the price from $0.38 to $0.46, with no end in sight. (The generators get $0.03, so someone is making a killing there). The green party likes high prices because it encourages the uptake of solar panels on the roof. Unfortunately, it discourages electric vehicles which I think are now more expensive to run than diesel and probably petrol/gasoline as well.
LPG is the most cost effective fuel in Australia.
The very best fuel I believe is compressed natural gas, and I think you can get compressors that will fill the car up from the gas main overnight. I'm not sure they are legal though.
Ten years ago solar panels for the roof were $10 a watt and now if you buy in bulk they are $0.75 a watt, and that is not with any government rebate. Payback period has fallen under 3 years. I'm looking at solar panels for the roof but for seriously running a house, plus possibly an electric car in the future, you need 2-3x the roof area of a standard house.
The Renult Twizzy, only £7000. Ideal for my commute to work in the summer. Not sure how I would cope with the -20C winter temperatures around here though.
One factor that's not usually accounted for in comparisons between electric and Gasoline is 'distribution cost'.
sure, building the grid is costly...
But what does it cost to build gas stations and have big rigs transporting all that highly-flammable fuel cost?
Not only that, but transporting the fule like that is pretty dangerous, and really... isn't there a safer way to do it?
It's almost as bad as piping explosive gas into every house in town...
To me a electric car only makes sense if you're a commuter and racking up 30k miles a year and have a boat load of disposable income to spend on this novelty. If you just drive locally and don't run up the miles a used Toyota or Honda makes more sense. Especially for those of us who aren't pulling down six figures.
Gadgetman
Well we've gotten real good at transporting gasoline and bringing natural gas to homes. Nothing wrong there.
a normal EV conversion can be done for 15 K .... Hardly 6 Fig car ,.
90% of EVs are conversions and they are not . Unlike the Tesla car , Very over priced.
I would Implore any one to look at KTA-EV.com.. they have some nice Kits and I knew the Original Owner Ken K His house was less then 5 Miles form mine .
In the good old days, you had a horse and a buggy. The buggy was built down to a weight that the horse could pull.
In recent times with the glut of cheap gas, vehicles are built up to whatever the buyer can stand. There seems to be a crazy "arms race" in the USA that dictates that a small vehicle will get crushed by a bigger one, therefore we had better get the biggest heaviest thing we can afford, just to be safe. Never mind the fact that if everyone does that you are no more safe than when you started with smaller lighter vehicles.
I find the whole concept of converting these behemoths to battery power a bit crazy.
To become energy efficient the whole personal transport horizon needs changing.
1) Why on earth are you living so far away from your work? In times past you would have moved closer to work because traveling was slow and expensive.
2) Why on earth are you travelling to work in a gigantic SUV? A big vehicle makes sense if you are carry a lot of people and/or going a long way. For the daily comute it is nuts.
I guess what I'm saying is that until the gas runs out and becomes so damn expensive, nothing is going to change. Economics rules, if we can afford it we will do it, and to hell with the consequences.
Except of course there is always government intervention. For example when the government tries to promote electric vehicles so as to reduce the appaulling pollution and consequent health problems in a city or country. They might do this by offering tax breaks for EV purchasers. Guess what? If you want to be really efficient and buy a Renult Twizzy, for example, you don't get a break because it's not a real car. Better to buy a big, heavy, expensive piece of c**p instead.
Interesting statement at the end of that linked article:
But for the practical sort who doesn't care about tech or climate change and has a long commute, no, it's not worth it at these prices.
That is to say "...for the totally non-practical type..." who gives no thought to efficiency, resource consumption, pollution, global warming etc etc etc. but just want to to continue in luxury as normal.
I just read the artiicle .. sadly its not true in the Long run . as one poster stated .. we are assuming that the charg and build power is not as clean as it will be in 10 Years .
We know the renewable realm is not all there Yet . but It will be .
the Key is that we need a poly step approch to the large picture .
take my mom for a EG . She and my dad 90% of the time are not going more then 50 Miles a day . and they are often parked for a hour at a time .
Considering the tesla can charge in 4 H . mom doing some shopping at Vons( food) If she is charging for a hour that is On a chevy volt about 10 more miles .
First off she does not need to Plug in to do her day to day chores but the fact she can get close to Breaking evin with her Miles to charge time Means on a Volt she can go 60-80 miles
Drive 10 miles . Charge 10 eff miles = 0 Net miles ..... her case is Home to food is 3 miles but she is there a good hour .......... she has now after shopping charged her batt to more then it it was then when she left to go get food !
Unless you are going to disney land From NY NY to FL . most of us are in one place parked a Long time so really the end is most consumers would IF there were chargers at most at parking spaces would make that range issue a huge flop .
Now take in to accout the tesla S 300 Mile When it comes out ..... again 4H charge ...... that is about 75 Miles per Hour of charge ... ( yess I know that the taper of the charge is not linear....... still)
My Segway is a EV . I can get a full charge in 4H also . and get 20 Miles outta a charge . not a tesla ! but its a In town mode of transport .
so for ever Hour ish I can get back 5 Miles ish .. again charge taper is not takein in to account here .
WE are very close to getting to a point where we can have charge = Driveable time .
Iam all for the Volt and not the Prius as you can Really use a Volt as a EV only If you so disire .. My mom got a new car last week and it was a subaru Crossback.
she did not know a Volt could do more then 40 Miles with gas kicked in ... her words were .. OPPS .
we will never shake the trucking industry from fossil fuels but we can get he soccer moms off the gas Fix and out of a large SUV and in to a more modest car .
people like bigger and better From, TVs to SUVs .......Its Sad ..
For the record My Fred Myers here in wilsonville has 2 EV chargeing spots next top the handicapped spots...... and in LA My negbor had a H2 and she got her food in it every week only 2 Miles away .... .
I read 40% of all fuel consumption is due to looking for a dumb parking space, we just need to get smaller vehicles and much of the problem will abate.
Just pause and reflect on what you might do if a Hurricane Sandy hit and you were suddenly without power for two or more week and your Tesla was uncharged.
Or if you had a sunspot storm that was similar to the one in Canada some years back and left a huge part of the power grid down.
I like the Tesla, but I like having an escape plan that doesn't mean walking a few hundred miles in bad weather to get to a refuge.
Hybrids still have a lot of appeal to me... especially if one were to use CNG rather than gasoline.
The trucking industry is already going over to CNG or other forms of bottled gas. Distribuition center have been developing and major makers of truck engines, like Cummings have adapted away from diesel. Inner city fleets and long-haul have been mostly targeted. George Soros own a huge share of the Canadian company that is providing the fuel technology to major manufacturers, including Ford, GM, Catapiller, and Cummings. I even one some of their stock, but I can't remember their name.
Just pause and reflect on what you might do if a Hurricane Sandy hit and you were suddenly without power for two or more week and your Tesla was uncharged.
Grid down no gas pumps . same story ... no Drive .
Own a House with PV on the roof and Volla some simple Slow charge .
My Ideal car would be a Volt that took LPG
as for parking . we need to not feel entitled to such a close space.....
Comments
Thanks for the link Erco; that was interesting. I hate to say it, but I've been adjusted, socio-techonogically-speaking. Don't like that.
Back to the original topic...I'd be more interested in purchasing an EV if they weren't so loaded down with gizmos and things I don't want in a vehicle. Also, providing 200MPH per charge would be nice.
Wow, that would make it the Bugatti Veyron of electric cars
...errrrrr - sorry. I meant to say "200 MPC".
But hey! 200MPH would still be cool!!!
From what I've heard an electric car getting its electricity from a coal fired plan is still greener than a gasoline car. The reason is that electric motors are significantly more efficient than gas engines, and regenerative breaking allows the electric car to retain energy the regular car loses to heat.
Its a valid but misunderstood argument ,,
EVs are cleaner On the mean whole ........
EG Iowa , got a good chunk of its Juce from wind. so its Verly Local dependent .
this is a pipe dream but most houses have enough Roof to put in 20 KW of PV . and 20 KW PV is more then enough to charge a EV .
Lets just Blow 200 K and get a tesla car and a Grid tie 20 KW system and then you are golden .)
( BTW PV is NOT clean ! . the porc to make slilcon boules and spin them takes a TON of power that comes from ........ more fossls so you cant escape it really ,,,,,,,,,,,,, the copper to make a Alternator to spin in a dam is refined by electricty .)
Its the lesser of evils in the end.. and really what is clean for one scale is not allwas on a larger or smaller scale .
a Coal plant for what it puts out is far more clean then the 1 KW Genset at the tool store .
the isseu with Batts is a second point to discuss.
PBA AGMs ( aka what is often called incorrectly as Gel Cells ) ( mind it does have a nice ring to it ! )
are upwards of 80% recycelble ! ( the RBRC has more info on this )
NICds are toixc ( Cd is nasty ! ) however ! NiMH is Very clean , Nickle is used in med inplants .
the Metal Hydride is Copper mesh with carbon and some infused H2 .
David James .. :
Its SO SO SO easy to do a conversion ,, WHy no just do one !?
no gizmos .
Peter
WOW!
"...SO SO SO easy..."????? Pray tell.
Are you talking about converting my S10 pickup to electric? Or are you talking about me converting to an electric vehicle?
A big factor is economies of scale in the generation of electricity. While a coal fired power plant is dirty, it's not nearly as dirty as the equivalent amount of energy being generated by 100 horsepower IC engines. The coal plant can put in scrubbers and achieve a conversion efficiency a plant that will fit in a car can only dream of. Add to this the advantages of needing less horsepower and regenerative braking, and electric powered by coal is still significantly better than gasoline IC drive.
Having seen pictures of you playing guitar, it seems to me that you already are an "electric vehicle" .. of music
Only a few years ago we used to pay that (US$ and Australia $ are about the same), but then the government decided to sell the electricity supply and now it is a company registered in the Bahamas and owned by someone in Hong Kong. This year they put the price from $0.38 to $0.46, with no end in sight. (The generators get $0.03, so someone is making a killing there). The green party likes high prices because it encourages the uptake of solar panels on the roof. Unfortunately, it discourages electric vehicles which I think are now more expensive to run than diesel and probably petrol/gasoline as well.
LPG is the most cost effective fuel in Australia.
The very best fuel I believe is compressed natural gas, and I think you can get compressors that will fill the car up from the gas main overnight. I'm not sure they are legal though.
Ten years ago solar panels for the roof were $10 a watt and now if you buy in bulk they are $0.75 a watt, and that is not with any government rebate. Payback period has fallen under 3 years. I'm looking at solar panels for the roof but for seriously running a house, plus possibly an electric car in the future, you need 2-3x the roof area of a standard house.
Which gives me a good excuse to build a huge shed
...uh-oh!!!
The Renult Twizzy, only £7000. Ideal for my commute to work in the summer. Not sure how I would cope with the -20C winter temperatures around here though.
sure, building the grid is costly...
But what does it cost to build gas stations and have big rigs transporting all that highly-flammable fuel cost?
Not only that, but transporting the fule like that is pretty dangerous, and really... isn't there a safer way to do it?
It's almost as bad as piping explosive gas into every house in town...
Gadgetman
Well we've gotten real good at transporting gasoline and bringing natural gas to homes. Nothing wrong there.
.
90% of EVs are conversions and they are not . Unlike the Tesla car , Very over priced.
I would Implore any one to look at KTA-EV.com.. they have some nice Kits and I knew the Original Owner Ken K His house was less then 5 Miles form mine .
Peter
In recent times with the glut of cheap gas, vehicles are built up to whatever the buyer can stand. There seems to be a crazy "arms race" in the USA that dictates that a small vehicle will get crushed by a bigger one, therefore we had better get the biggest heaviest thing we can afford, just to be safe. Never mind the fact that if everyone does that you are no more safe than when you started with smaller lighter vehicles.
I find the whole concept of converting these behemoths to battery power a bit crazy.
To become energy efficient the whole personal transport horizon needs changing.
1) Why on earth are you living so far away from your work? In times past you would have moved closer to work because traveling was slow and expensive.
2) Why on earth are you travelling to work in a gigantic SUV? A big vehicle makes sense if you are carry a lot of people and/or going a long way. For the daily comute it is nuts.
I guess what I'm saying is that until the gas runs out and becomes so damn expensive, nothing is going to change. Economics rules, if we can afford it we will do it, and to hell with the consequences.
Except of course there is always government intervention. For example when the government tries to promote electric vehicles so as to reduce the appaulling pollution and consequent health problems in a city or country. They might do this by offering tax breaks for EV purchasers. Guess what? If you want to be really efficient and buy a Renult Twizzy, for example, you don't get a break because it's not a real car. Better to buy a big, heavy, expensive piece of c**p instead.
I dispare.
http://news.yahoo.com/spending-week-electric-car-2013-chevy-volt-worth-185409572.html
Interesting statement at the end of that linked article:
That is to say "...for the totally non-practical type..." who gives no thought to efficiency, resource consumption, pollution, global warming etc etc etc. but just want to to continue in luxury as normal.
Heater is correct that smaller and lighter would be good, but we still have the issue of mixing that small light traffic with big heavy truck traffic.
C.W.
this is to me a huge leap If it can be done .
Mini cooper an a semi crash ,. Extra Dead .
\ F150 in a Semi Crash . half dead . but in pain ... Pick your poison .
why is it that people compare such a HUGE truck to any car. or consumer truck. what is more sane to compare is a SUV Vs a smart or a mini .
Frakly Iam more worried about some normal person eating and texting in a SUV then a trucker whom has WAY more to loose if he or she messes up.
http://www.theprovince.com/cars/Tesla+gets+electrifying+news/7557971/story.html#axzz2CO4MlCkn
http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1366&doc_id=254150
We know the renewable realm is not all there Yet . but It will be .
the Key is that we need a poly step approch to the large picture .
take my mom for a EG . She and my dad 90% of the time are not going more then 50 Miles a day . and they are often parked for a hour at a time .
Considering the tesla can charge in 4 H . mom doing some shopping at Vons( food) If she is charging for a hour that is On a chevy volt about 10 more miles .
First off she does not need to Plug in to do her day to day chores but the fact she can get close to Breaking evin with her Miles to charge time Means on a Volt she can go 60-80 miles
Drive 10 miles . Charge 10 eff miles = 0 Net miles ..... her case is Home to food is 3 miles but she is there a good hour .......... she has now after shopping charged her batt to more then it it was then when she left to go get food !
Unless you are going to disney land From NY NY to FL . most of us are in one place parked a Long time so really the end is most consumers would IF there were chargers at most at parking spaces would make that range issue a huge flop .
Now take in to accout the tesla S 300 Mile When it comes out ..... again 4H charge ...... that is about 75 Miles per Hour of charge ... ( yess I know that the taper of the charge is not linear....... still)
My Segway is a EV . I can get a full charge in 4H also . and get 20 Miles outta a charge . not a tesla ! but its a In town mode of transport .
so for ever Hour ish I can get back 5 Miles ish .. again charge taper is not takein in to account here .
WE are very close to getting to a point where we can have charge = Driveable time .
Iam all for the Volt and not the Prius as you can Really use a Volt as a EV only If you so disire .. My mom got a new car last week and it was a subaru Crossback.
she did not know a Volt could do more then 40 Miles with gas kicked in ... her words were .. OPPS .
we will never shake the trucking industry from fossil fuels but we can get he soccer moms off the gas Fix and out of a large SUV and in to a more modest car .
people like bigger and better From, TVs to SUVs .......Its Sad ..
For the record My Fred Myers here in wilsonville has 2 EV chargeing spots next top the handicapped spots...... and in LA My negbor had a H2 and she got her food in it every week only 2 Miles away .... .
Peter
Just pause and reflect on what you might do if a Hurricane Sandy hit and you were suddenly without power for two or more week and your Tesla was uncharged.
Or if you had a sunspot storm that was similar to the one in Canada some years back and left a huge part of the power grid down.
I like the Tesla, but I like having an escape plan that doesn't mean walking a few hundred miles in bad weather to get to a refuge.
Hybrids still have a lot of appeal to me... especially if one were to use CNG rather than gasoline.
The trucking industry is already going over to CNG or other forms of bottled gas. Distribuition center have been developing and major makers of truck engines, like Cummings have adapted away from diesel. Inner city fleets and long-haul have been mostly targeted. George Soros own a huge share of the Canadian company that is providing the fuel technology to major manufacturers, including Ford, GM, Catapiller, and Cummings. I even one some of their stock, but I can't remember their name.
Own a House with PV on the roof and Volla some simple Slow charge .
My Ideal car would be a Volt that took LPG
as for parking . we need to not feel entitled to such a close space.....
park far away get some walking in .
Why pay an engineer to do what the average Prop-head could do? Where is the profit?
It'll come. Time changes all things.
Rich