They do have it. I checked rcfoam before but only saw the square with square inside I guess I didn't look hard enough. I am going to wait for Parallax to finish there's I don't feel like fixing the one I have. In the future maybe, I might need 2 quads.
IIRC I read an article over a year ago that said the square carbon fibre with the round hole was too flexible and users were fitting dowel into the hole.
I like the idea of flat aluminium strips with spacers. Makes for a nice engine mount and a bit of protection in the case of a crash. Many years ago I used to "crash" planes. I say that because I never flew long enough to make a landing attempt However, it did increase my skills in building crashproof planes. My last crash broke the piston shaft in the engine when I pile drove it into the ground but the plane survived intact other than the nosecone which was completely squashed!
On this air-frame the square tubes are only 8in. long the tubes are very ridged at that length. I see your point though if they where longer flex could be an issue. I'll keep that in mind, thanks for pointing that out.
I just read on here a comment about square tubes being nice because it's easy to align the holes from one end to the other without a lot of fancy equipment. I've seen the comment many other places as well. I think most everyone has tried to align holes in a round tube at one time or the other and it can be pretty frustrating. This morning I got the monthly sales flyer from Woodcrafters and it clicked with my recollection of the alignment comment here. I thought I would share the tool I usually use to solve the problem.
This explanation would probably be better done with a picture, but lets try it with words. :-) First you drill the hole through one end of your boom. Then you turn the boom around in the vise and clamp it lightly. Next you stick a rod through the first holes you drilled so you can see the alignment easily. Then you place the digital alignment gauge up against the rod to measure the exact angle relative to the drill axis. The gauge reads out in tenths of a degree so you can get it mighty close! This can also be done on the cheap with a bubble level if all you want is zero and 90 degrees and the axis of your drill is actually vertical. The nice thing about the digital gauge is that you can zero it to the drill or mill table with the push of a button and then you can simply read the digital meter to get ANY angle you want. It works SO slick and it's SO fast and accurate! I found the first one of these in the MSC Industrial book for something like $60. Then I ran into them later in a Woodcrafters sale for $27. I bought two more of these on their last sale and see they went on sale again today. This is the exact same unit that MSC has, but it has a different company name on the front. What a deal and it works better than you can believe for so many things!
So why did I buy more than one? I have one in my hobby room, one in my machine shop for work, and the third one just got a helicopter blade bracket machined and attached permanently to the back. Now I can finally set my helicopter pitch "perfectly" in less than five minutes! It wasn't until I got this working that I realized that I've never had my heli pitch quite right. You can donate your old pitch gauge to a museum. :-)
I'm not trying to promote Woodcrafters, but it's the cheapest place I've ever seen these. Here is a link to the sale that started today:
However, my problem is a little more complicated... Aside from the mounting of a flat surface (the engine mount) onto the round tube, which means the mount is not so stable... Until recently, we lived on a boat (the one as my avatar). We intend to do that again hopefully real soon now So, when we prepared to move onto the boat I gave away most of my tools. There is no room for a drill press on a boat even tho there is plenty of living room. No room for unnecessary tools, etc. I am not the only one without a drill press.
That makes the flat bar or square/rectangular bar much easier to work with. I liked the idea of suspending two surfaces by bolts/spacers because they could be placed appropriately to reduce flex and particularly resonance vibrations which are a curse for gyros and accelerometers.
To lighten the frame, if required, we can then just drill out holes in the frame. If we were to punch them and bell them somewhat, that would increase the rigidity just like an airframe.
Now that weight seems to be less of a problem than I originally thought, I am going to give flat bars or square tube another go. Its at least worth trying.
Hey Guys,
I am glad to see that "Frank" as he has come to be known as has not let everyone down and is a success! He is in the Heavy category when it comes to quads, but he has the stability in return! The dimensions had been requested so I took my laser schematics and added some text!
I have to say, quads are addicting and you can never have enough! The platform is here, now the ideas are flowing like crazy! I hope you guys enjoy!
Something to think about with a lager profile air-frame is the affect the wind will have on it while trying to maintain a hoover, unless it is heavy. The more mass the less agile it will be. Also in forward flight you have no conventional elevator or rudder to control the airfoil affect introduced(if any). The only control in a quad is to increase or decease thrust on four motors not enough of an impact to control an airfoil going the way it wants IMHO. Kinda like the early US Air force attempts at flying saucers.
Cluso99,
You just had to mention boomerangs! The second I read that the wheels started turning! That would work very nicely, and be much lighter than my aluminum tank-like under wing! How strong are the boomerangs that you have down there? I would imagine that they are pretty durable, and able to with stand some hard licks on the ground. That may be a new way to go!
On this air-frame the square tubes are only 8in. long the tubes are very ridged at that length. I see your point though if they where longer flex could be an issue. I'll keep that in mind, thanks for pointing that out.
The H design has some interesting possibilities when using carbon fiber plates, since the rods/tubes with the motors can be continuous as opposed to current designs that use one rod per motor.
The H design has some interesting possibilities when using carbon fiber plates, since the rods/tubes with the motors can be continuous as opposed to current designs that use one rod per motor.
I really like the carbon fiber tubes, but at $35/ft I can't see people paying for it if AL6061 is about $1/ft. Of course weighs a portion of the other. I've been able to get plenty of vertical flight with thin-wall aluminum tubing. I've never even hit full throttle, so there's room for payload. I think the ideal situation is to use aluminum and "pay the price" in weight simply by having a few hundred more mAH in your lithium batteries.
For my own quadcopter I might by the carbon fiber tubes, but there's no time available for that now or in the near future.
I'd like to post another thread about building with carbon fiber and see what it's all about. Could Google it just as easily. . .
I just ordered some motors and speed controllers from HobbyKing. The Turnigy 2217 motors are out of stock so I chose the Turnigy Park 480 850kv motors. They are a little more powerful than the 2217s so I will be using the 12 x 3.8 props instead of the 10 x 4.7s. This is good for me because I intend to carry some additional equipment.
For the next 14 days these "Buddy Codes" will allow you to get the motors for $19 and the 40 amp controllers for $18. You need to be logged in for them to work.
I ordered five of the motors, five of the controllers, several meters of the black and red 14 gage silicone wire, tamiya style connectors and a few meters of 10mm mesh guard. My total including shipping was $281. I'll order the HoverFLy board next week.
@John, that is the Simple Servo Tester, a little 555 based servo tester available at Gadget Gangster.
Oh, you guys would make easy friends BTW. W9GFO, Tiger is one of my other friends from the great NW USA, only a state away from you. He's also built simple servo testers, so you've got that in common. Tiger has a tool shop most of us will only dream of - he's also much of the inspiration behind Parallax manufacturing and know-how. He should really be listed as one of our "Star Contributors" [better take care of that!].
Tiger, W9GFO is an active robo-head, photographer, engineer, and serious hobbyist with the kinds of things we all enjoy. W9GFO has been to Parallax several times, toting the whole family and making it part of a vacation.
Ahh... one day I too will have a tool shop worthy of dreams. It'll be a while though I am sure. Just yesterday I knocked down a wall in my garage shop to try to open it up a little. I am seriously cramped for space here. In fact, I really should be out there now - hammering... or something....
I'd like to see John's shop, maybe start one of those "show us your workshop" threads?
A "Share your workshop pictures here" would be a great thread. Very tempting to start that one out myself! My workshop is smaller than yours though at about 150 sf. Adding tools in it takes more planning than installing a microwave oven in a Hong Kong apartment. I also aspire for a grand workshop at home, but since all of my attention has gone towards Parallax and I can ask for any part I can draw I'm able to resist the temptation at home. Setting up some machines not only takes space, but a lot of time!
A quick update on what's going on at Parallax regarding these quadcopters.
But first I should explain the lack of progress. As you can see from the forums, there are plenty of things going on to compete for our interests. In short, the Microsoft Eddie bot is quite the demanding manufacturing process. All of our machines are running like crazy, overtime and all the time. RadioShack might as well work in our building since they've got control over our domestic and overseas SMT lines right now, not to mention a chunk of our staff has been gone to Maker Faire, Digi-Key, Fry's, RadioShack and Microcenter. Some of these big companies have 100 to 1 staff ratios with Parallax, so the e-mail explosion is quite demanding for some of us. Parallax Semiconductor is busy with some key customers and nobody seems to have any time, which is why I'm writing this on a Sunday. Seems that weekends are for keeping up lately. We're still having a great time.
The Turnigy 2217s, Plush 25A ESCs, and Turnigy 2217 Motor Repair Kits from HobbyKing
This week we will place an initial stocking order for a large volume of components from HobbyKing. This is our first time placing commercial orders from that company, so we've got to identify the representatives we will get to know, set them up as a supplier and plan around their lead times. Concurrently with our Purchasing Manager's efforts I am planning a trip to Hong Kong and China to meet with Hobby King in November. We need to understand what's going on behind the scenes of this awesome web site. Meeting the managers and communicating that we're the kind of company who will replace anything a customer wants to return to us, and sorting out shipping options is on our agenda. Some of these parts are on backorder, a big concern of ours.
APC Propellers
Thankfully, this company is right down the interstate in Woodland, California. We anticipate a pretty easy vendor setup so we can get the 10x4.7 Propeller/Pusher Propellers in stock very fast. Their propellers are the best I know, having tested a few others and several batches from China.
All of the other parts are made from raw materials on our machines in Rocklin. I guess we need some things from McMaster, but you know how easy it is to get a package from them!
Internal Manufacturing / Final Alpha
Several pages ago I mentioned that we will build three more Alpha versions of our quadcopter, reflecting a list of modifications I identified. We will have these underway by Tuesday this week and should be able to report the latest flight characteristics by the end of this week. We have to get these Alpha units done because of all the other demands on manufacturing. That's the update for now.
Thats great news Ken. These quads are amazing even tho I have not had the time to get mine fully built. Too many other (prop) projects!
I spent a lot of time researching which motors and escs to use, then bought them from HobbyKing. Much nicer to be able to get everything from one source, particularly where shipping is concerned.
I just ordered some motors and speed controllers from HobbyKing. The Turnigy 2217 motors are out of stock so I chose the Turnigy Park 480 850kv motors. They are a little more powerful than the 2217s so I will be using the 12 x 3.8 props instead of the 10 x 4.7s. This is good for me because I intend to carry some additional equipment.
For the next 14 days these "Buddy Codes" will allow you to get the motors for $19 and the 40 amp controllers for $18. You need to be logged in for them to work.
I ordered five of the motors, five of the controllers, several meters of the black and red 14 gage silicone wire, tamiya style connectors and a few meters of 10mm mesh guard. My total including shipping was $281. I'll order the HoverFLy board next week.
I couldn't help but smile when I saw you bought "5" of everything
I couldn't help but smile when I saw you bought "5" of everything
Me too. There are two reasons one might laugh: (1) unsure about the quality of these motors/ESCs, so you get an extra unit or (2) crash protection - got a spare!
What W9GFO didn't buy and he should have also ordered is the spare parts kit that goes with each motor: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7204__Turnigy_2217_motor_accessory_Pack_.html are something you really need. Turns out the motors casings don't sustain much damage in the world-class [often intentional] crashes I've done. Instead, it's the prop adapters that get bent, set screws come out, and shafts get bent. A $4 parts kit can fix this problem for you.
Internally we are developing a list of must-do pre-flight checks that will dramatically reduce your potential for crashing. Turns out the biggest issue is vibration (doh, many other quadcopter forums said this but I had to experiment for myself). All grub screws, set screws, etc. must be set with Loctite. Any machine screws need nylon lock nuts (or something equivalent - you tell me). Props must be balanced, too. Failure to do these things is a recipe for disaster. And thankfully all of these little steps are very easy, providing a low-cost insurance compared to the total rebuilds you experience in paved parking lots with upside-down crashes.
No matter how much you crash, I still reinforce a prior statement: crashes in quadcopters are NOTHING compared to R/C helicopters! You can fix and fly way faster, and there's very little to break here aside from propellers and motor parts.
Ken Gracey
Couldn't agree more APC Propellers are also my choice when it comes to RC Plane Prop's. Great value, great product.
-Ron
Glad you agree, Ron. There are certain places to spend the money that bring great value and benefit. Strangely, I can't say that my quadcopter flies far better with the expensive motors - minor improvement but not worth the 4x cost factor. APC propellers are a noticeable difference, however. And the Hoverfly boards are worth every penny, as the control system squeezes every bit of performance from the Turnigy motors at 10K times a second. I think a good radio makes setup a bit easier as well.
Thats great news Ken. These quads are amazing even tho I have not had the time to get mine fully built. Too many other (prop) projects!
I spent a lot of time researching which motors and escs to use, then bought them from HobbyKing. Much nicer to be able to get everything from one source, particularly where shipping is concerned.
Cluso99, since you're always in the water and you are short on time I think this quadcopter kit will speed you towards flight. It might even provide the final push of inspiration to get your own boards done and airborne. Since we have USPS it shouldn't be unreasonably expensive. I realize that Aussies are somewhat accustomed to procurement headaches, but we'll do our best to make this fairly priced (i.e., nothing more than if you bought the parts yourself, plus a small bit for our frame manufacturing).
I didn't see a spare parts kit for the Park 480 motors, hopefully my one spare will be sufficient for now. I almost bought two spares but I know if I did that, I would just build a hex copter.
Comments
They do have it. I checked rcfoam before but only saw the square with square inside I guess I didn't look hard enough. I am going to wait for Parallax to finish there's I don't feel like fixing the one I have. In the future maybe, I might need 2 quads.
-Ron
I like the idea of flat aluminium strips with spacers. Makes for a nice engine mount and a bit of protection in the case of a crash. Many years ago I used to "crash" planes. I say that because I never flew long enough to make a landing attempt
On this air-frame the square tubes are only 8in. long the tubes are very ridged at that length. I see your point though if they where longer flex could be an issue. I'll keep that in mind, thanks for pointing that out.
-Ron
This explanation would probably be better done with a picture, but lets try it with words. :-) First you drill the hole through one end of your boom. Then you turn the boom around in the vise and clamp it lightly. Next you stick a rod through the first holes you drilled so you can see the alignment easily. Then you place the digital alignment gauge up against the rod to measure the exact angle relative to the drill axis. The gauge reads out in tenths of a degree so you can get it mighty close! This can also be done on the cheap with a bubble level if all you want is zero and 90 degrees and the axis of your drill is actually vertical. The nice thing about the digital gauge is that you can zero it to the drill or mill table with the push of a button and then you can simply read the digital meter to get ANY angle you want. It works SO slick and it's SO fast and accurate! I found the first one of these in the MSC Industrial book for something like $60. Then I ran into them later in a Woodcrafters sale for $27. I bought two more of these on their last sale and see they went on sale again today. This is the exact same unit that MSC has, but it has a different company name on the front. What a deal and it works better than you can believe for so many things!
So why did I buy more than one? I have one in my hobby room, one in my machine shop for work, and the third one just got a helicopter blade bracket machined and attached permanently to the back. Now I can finally set my helicopter pitch "perfectly" in less than five minutes! It wasn't until I got this working that I realized that I've never had my heli pitch quite right. You can donate your old pitch gauge to a museum. :-)
I'm not trying to promote Woodcrafters, but it's the cheapest place I've ever seen these. Here is a link to the sale that started today:
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2005894/18124/Wixey-Digital-Angle-Gauge.aspx?refcode=11IN09NL&utm_source=directemail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=11IN09NL
This is a great tool to have around your shop and I think you'll find a lot of uses for it.
...Tiger
Update: I just noticed they have another one with two digit resolution and magnets on more sides. I have never seen this one and it's a little more money. Just thought I'd point it out. I'm happy with the one I have.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2021179/25191/Beall-Tilt-Box-Digital-Angle-Gauge.aspx
However, my problem is a little more complicated... Aside from the mounting of a flat surface (the engine mount) onto the round tube, which means the mount is not so stable... Until recently, we lived on a boat (the one as my avatar). We intend to do that again hopefully real soon now
That makes the flat bar or square/rectangular bar much easier to work with. I liked the idea of suspending two surfaces by bolts/spacers because they could be placed appropriately to reduce flex and particularly resonance vibrations which are a curse for gyros and accelerometers.
To lighten the frame, if required, we can then just drill out holes in the frame. If we were to punch them and bell them somewhat, that would increase the rigidity just like an airframe.
Now that weight seems to be less of a problem than I originally thought, I am going to give flat bars or square tube another go. Its at least worth trying.
http://www.thecooltool.com/index_e.php
They've got everything from 'kid friendly' models up to home-use CNC machines.
I am glad to see that "Frank" as he has come to be known as has not let everyone down and is a success! He is in the Heavy category when it comes to quads, but he has the stability in return! The dimensions had been requested so I took my laser schematics and added some text!
I have to say, quads are addicting and you can never have enough! The platform is here, now the ideas are flowing like crazy! I hope you guys enjoy!
-Nick
Pretty much a square measurement between motors as Phil had surmised. Visually deceiving, looks like a rectangle though.
-Ron
You just had to mention boomerangs! The second I read that the wheels started turning! That would work very nicely, and be much lighter than my aluminum tank-like under wing! How strong are the boomerangs that you have down there? I would imagine that they are pretty durable, and able to with stand some hard licks on the ground. That may be a new way to go!
Another option is to use square carbon fiber tubes such as these http://dragonplate.com/ecart/categories.asp?cID=53
The H design has some interesting possibilities when using carbon fiber plates, since the rods/tubes with the motors can be continuous as opposed to current designs that use one rod per motor.
I really like the carbon fiber tubes, but at $35/ft I can't see people paying for it if AL6061 is about $1/ft. Of course weighs a portion of the other. I've been able to get plenty of vertical flight with thin-wall aluminum tubing. I've never even hit full throttle, so there's room for payload. I think the ideal situation is to use aluminum and "pay the price" in weight simply by having a few hundred more mAH in your lithium batteries.
For my own quadcopter I might by the carbon fiber tubes, but there's no time available for that now or in the near future.
I'd like to post another thread about building with carbon fiber and see what it's all about. Could Google it just as easily. . .
Carry on! I really like the discussion.
Ken Gracey
For the next 14 days these "Buddy Codes" will allow you to get the motors for $19 and the 40 amp controllers for $18. You need to be logged in for them to work.
I ordered five of the motors, five of the controllers, several meters of the black and red 14 gage silicone wire, tamiya style connectors and a few meters of 10mm mesh guard. My total including shipping was $281. I'll order the HoverFLy board next week.
KG
...John (WA6IKO)
Oh, you guys would make easy friends BTW. W9GFO, Tiger is one of my other friends from the great NW USA, only a state away from you. He's also built simple servo testers, so you've got that in common. Tiger has a tool shop most of us will only dream of - he's also much of the inspiration behind Parallax manufacturing and know-how. He should really be listed as one of our "Star Contributors" [better take care of that!].
Tiger, W9GFO is an active robo-head, photographer, engineer, and serious hobbyist with the kinds of things we all enjoy. W9GFO has been to Parallax several times, toting the whole family and making it part of a vacation.
Ken Gracey, KI6HBT
I'd like to see John's shop, maybe start one of those "show us your workshop" threads?
Ken Gracey
But first I should explain the lack of progress. As you can see from the forums, there are plenty of things going on to compete for our interests. In short, the Microsoft Eddie bot is quite the demanding manufacturing process. All of our machines are running like crazy, overtime and all the time. RadioShack might as well work in our building since they've got control over our domestic and overseas SMT lines right now, not to mention a chunk of our staff has been gone to Maker Faire, Digi-Key, Fry's, RadioShack and Microcenter. Some of these big companies have 100 to 1 staff ratios with Parallax, so the e-mail explosion is quite demanding for some of us. Parallax Semiconductor is busy with some key customers and nobody seems to have any time, which is why I'm writing this on a Sunday. Seems that weekends are for keeping up lately. We're still having a great time.
The Turnigy 2217s, Plush 25A ESCs, and Turnigy 2217 Motor Repair Kits from HobbyKing
This week we will place an initial stocking order for a large volume of components from HobbyKing. This is our first time placing commercial orders from that company, so we've got to identify the representatives we will get to know, set them up as a supplier and plan around their lead times. Concurrently with our Purchasing Manager's efforts I am planning a trip to Hong Kong and China to meet with Hobby King in November. We need to understand what's going on behind the scenes of this awesome web site. Meeting the managers and communicating that we're the kind of company who will replace anything a customer wants to return to us, and sorting out shipping options is on our agenda. Some of these parts are on backorder, a big concern of ours.
APC Propellers
Thankfully, this company is right down the interstate in Woodland, California. We anticipate a pretty easy vendor setup so we can get the 10x4.7 Propeller/Pusher Propellers in stock very fast. Their propellers are the best I know, having tested a few others and several batches from China.
All of the other parts are made from raw materials on our machines in Rocklin. I guess we need some things from McMaster, but you know how easy it is to get a package from them!
Internal Manufacturing / Final Alpha
Several pages ago I mentioned that we will build three more Alpha versions of our quadcopter, reflecting a list of modifications I identified. We will have these underway by Tuesday this week and should be able to report the latest flight characteristics by the end of this week. We have to get these Alpha units done because of all the other demands on manufacturing. That's the update for now.
Ken Gracey
I spent a lot of time researching which motors and escs to use, then bought them from HobbyKing. Much nicer to be able to get everything from one source, particularly where shipping is concerned.
I couldn't help but smile when I saw you bought "5" of everything
Couldn't agree more APC Propellers are also my choice when it comes to RC Plane Prop's. Great value, great product.
-Ron
Me too. There are two reasons one might laugh: (1) unsure about the quality of these motors/ESCs, so you get an extra unit or (2) crash protection - got a spare!
What W9GFO didn't buy and he should have also ordered is the spare parts kit that goes with each motor: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7204__Turnigy_2217_motor_accessory_Pack_.html are something you really need. Turns out the motors casings don't sustain much damage in the world-class [often intentional] crashes I've done. Instead, it's the prop adapters that get bent, set screws come out, and shafts get bent. A $4 parts kit can fix this problem for you.
Internally we are developing a list of must-do pre-flight checks that will dramatically reduce your potential for crashing. Turns out the biggest issue is vibration (doh, many other quadcopter forums said this but I had to experiment for myself). All grub screws, set screws, etc. must be set with Loctite. Any machine screws need nylon lock nuts (or something equivalent - you tell me). Props must be balanced, too. Failure to do these things is a recipe for disaster. And thankfully all of these little steps are very easy, providing a low-cost insurance compared to the total rebuilds you experience in paved parking lots with upside-down crashes.
No matter how much you crash, I still reinforce a prior statement: crashes in quadcopters are NOTHING compared to R/C helicopters! You can fix and fly way faster, and there's very little to break here aside from propellers and motor parts.
Ken Gracey
Glad you agree, Ron. There are certain places to spend the money that bring great value and benefit. Strangely, I can't say that my quadcopter flies far better with the expensive motors - minor improvement but not worth the 4x cost factor. APC propellers are a noticeable difference, however. And the Hoverfly boards are worth every penny, as the control system squeezes every bit of performance from the Turnigy motors at 10K times a second. I think a good radio makes setup a bit easier as well.
Ken Gracey
Cluso99, since you're always in the water and you are short on time I think this quadcopter kit will speed you towards flight. It might even provide the final push of inspiration to get your own boards done and airborne. Since we have USPS it shouldn't be unreasonably expensive. I realize that Aussies are somewhat accustomed to procurement headaches, but we'll do our best to make this fairly priced (i.e., nothing more than if you bought the parts yourself, plus a small bit for our frame manufacturing).