Propeller II Experimenters PCB requirement's
Sapieha
Posts: 2,964
Hi All.
This post are open for Info to build PCB for Propeller II.
As jazzed said me on UPEC if I can Layout that PCB. I said to Him I need information on Final info on some Propeller II info.
It is not problem to others to post to this thread BUT please only on topic THANKS.
jazzed on attached text file -- Is exemple how I will have PIN definitions described.
To that I need Footprint info to IC package that will be used. If it is same I use it have 2 variants One with center pad and one without. I need know that to.
Next are preferred PCB size, Connectors that Parallax will be used, what type of boot device(IC) need be used, Communication to PC with else without FTDI.
That is start conditions I need know.
More after I know that ones.
This post are open for Info to build PCB for Propeller II.
As jazzed said me on UPEC if I can Layout that PCB. I said to Him I need information on Final info on some Propeller II info.
It is not problem to others to post to this thread BUT please only on topic THANKS.
jazzed on attached text file -- Is exemple how I will have PIN definitions described.
To that I need Footprint info to IC package that will be used. If it is same I use it have 2 variants One with center pad and one without. I need know that to.
Next are preferred PCB size, Connectors that Parallax will be used, what type of boot device(IC) need be used, Communication to PC with else without FTDI.
That is start conditions I need know.
More after I know that ones.
Comments
For some addition info.
Added Picture on PCB in progress.
SORRY I shown only parts I know how I will have - NOT parts that we still not have any info on.
Preferred PCB size : As small as possible.
Communication to PC with else without FTDI: FTDI is looking old-hat.
Ardunio has already dropped FTDI and moved to Mega8U, and I think a local CPU will make a big difference to the (eventual) Debug operation.
So, cheapest good uC with USB is the choice.
I'd back the LPC11Uxx, starting with pin compatible (?) LPC13xx until the LPC11Uxx is freely available.
This has good timers, and ADC, so can generate and measure as part of a TestBench.
Sorry I missed this thread until now.
There was a drawing posted on a proposed package and pin-out. I can't seem to find it. Maybe Beau can help us out with that.
As I remember package was a QFP128 with RES, BOE, XO, XI, etc... in one corner.
Details I recall from Chip's presentation at UPEW besides package are: SPI based bootflash and/or SDcard, likely a USB enabled serial port, and SDRAM for video/external code memory. The core voltage will be 1.8V and IO pins can be 1.8V or 3.3V. IO running at 3.3V will be faster than IO running at 1.8V.
A board that includes items mentioned above, plus, power jack, 5V, 3.3V, 1.8V regulators, pin headers, USB host ports configurable as PS2 or USB, RCA jacks, and VGA connector would be nice. A small breadboard area seems very popular.
The Propeller Platform short board size would be good, but how do you allow access to all the pins and remain compatible with that footprint? The easiest route would be to have pins on even/odd rows of the existing headers and have another 32 pin header on an open end for the remaining 28 pins + power, ground, reset, and boe pins. The easiest option for existing Propeller Platform users would be to keep the existing layout and add an extra 60 header pins + power, ground, reset, BOE.
It's all brain-storming at this point, but it would be nice to have a preliminary Open-Source Hardware design ready for the final silicon so that we don't have to rush when hardware appears.
Thanks.
--Steve
Two versions...
A. Module for hobbyists to make it easy to use (i.e. converts SMT to T/Hole) - Miniature pcb with all pins broken out to 0.1" spacing, contains the bypass caps and xtal
B. Usable pcb - described below...
1. Xtal (socketed), bypass caps, regulators for 1v8 & 3v3 (from 5V input), & propII
2. I/O either all wired for 3V3 (or by optional jumpers)
3. microSD (for booting code)
4. Header for PropPlug or USB conection
5. Maybe optional USB circuit ??? (to use the prop)
6. Power input 5V via microUSB connector (yes - not miniUSB as microUSB is now the Phone standard, so lets jump a step here)
Definately no FTDI chip on the pcb - way too expensive these days, and hopefully the Prop II means we will not require it.
I am unsure of what else at this time...
Perhaps TV or VGA option with Keyboard (& mouse??)
Perhaps SDRAM
I have an updated image of the pinout that Chip gave me, the power and ground pins for the I/Os got moved around so that power and ground would not be right next to each other in the pin outs to help avoid shorting when probing it. I'll email Chip and ask if I can post that image here.
Roy
Often the back of the board is neglected since smt mass manufacturing is so 'top of board' focussed. The one beautiful exception to this is the Prop Boe with its "Playground" with tssop and soic breakouts on the back. I'm not familiar with the RAM chips proposed - 54 tssop? - could they fit under the P2? That would allow for a very compact board.
Given the great analog capabilities we're going to be getting - ground planes and power circuitry will need very special attention.
Thanks to jazzed and others for theirs input.
Good input on 2 versions BUT --->
I have conscious used NAME "Experimenters" and not "DEMO Board" on This thread name.
As it will not be final Demo Board PCB but as jazzed and some others said PCB to test First series of Propeller II IC's.
To that we need one PCB that are as simple as possible --- BUT that still have all needed connectors/Voltage regulators to be possible to test it.
As Tubular said for good function this PCB NEED be dual-sided -- But not have RAM IC on bottom of Propeller --- BUT for good decoupling of all Voltage pins it need have DECOUPLING capacitors group. All other placement of that capacitors will give to long Traces to them And that can give negative implications in decoupling them.
As all maybe already know THIS board need be routed with 6 mil's traces with no more that 6-8 mil's space between traces.
Attached pictures show both type of Footprints that industry use on that package - That will give some throughput on possibilitys in routing on this.
So my proposal - Keep that first PCB as simple as possible. Only necessary connectors for programing and testing.
I can't say more before I have (Official) list of PIN's and list of Reserved pin's for Programing/RUN and revised from Parallax that Footprint I show are correct one!
.
Ps. For reference I added existing 0.5mm and 0.8mm spacing package (Pics updated)
One with dimensions inside are in metric --- It is 14x14mm body of IC.
Pin spacing are 0.4mm.
This footprint are drawn after original data sheet to that IC - And I know it is correct
It is one of Footprint I use to any other IC I use. BUT as I said pictures are for reference --- Correct ones Parallax need supply us with
Ps. BIG one with 0.5mm spacing are one from my Layout program's standard library.
http://www.leonheller.com/Propeller/Propeller%20II.pdf
I created it as 9 gates, to avoid clutter, and make schematics easier to understand.
The grid refuses to show even at 600 dpi
Look on Links I post.
http://www.mitsui-high-tec.com/ch/prd/ic/lineup1.html
http://www.mitsui-high-tec.com/ch/prd/ic/pkg/MHP009.pdf
http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds3/TQFP128-P-1414A.pdf
http://www.ricoh.com/LSI/product_pcif/pkg/TQFP-128-P1-1414.pdf
Nice .xls document.
BUT we need that one with one extra column that specify RESERVED pins.
AND that document need be official from Parallax - Aproved by both Chip and Beau!
To be usable
SORRY Ale --- My BIG package are 0.8mm pin spacing.
My BIG one are "CQFP128".
But if You look on first link I posted "Mitsui" don't have any package in 0.5mm spacing with 128 pins at all.
So what name have Yours package?
THANKS.
My one was 0.8mm
BUT I found even 0.5mm pin spacing STQFP-128 --- Look on updated Picture in original post.
As long I don't found TQFP-128 with 0.5mm spacing
Ps. Now I found that TQFP-128-2-0.5mm. Dimensions are Body=20mm, Outline pin's=22mm
Will add to my Library
- voltage regulation
- programming interface
- micro-SD (if it's a defined or defaulted set of pins)
- filtering/decoupling
- I/O voltage options (may want to experiment at 1.8v I/O levels since it's new)
- whatever else is dictated by spec or needed to be stable
- a prototyping area (smt pads?) and maybe a small breadboard space
As to format/footprint, either something along the lines of the lines of the Propeller Protoboard so you could use the existing cards or since the GG Propeller Platform is the chosen standard, use those header pinouts and add the additional pins via an extended header set like the Arduino Mega This could be bad though since you introduce a defacto standard (original pin group + Propeller II pin group) which may not be optimal for the Propeller II accessory cards.
This shouldn't be the bells and whistles DEMO board, but something to get the first chips on a stable platform for the early developers and those who truly want to experiment at the pin level.
RE: PCB to Next PCB interconnect considerations.
Please be sure that the i/o and mountings are on 0.10 in both X and Y.
and groups of header pins are at the same spacing.
I have mentioned this 'till I'm blue and <no one> at Parallax acknowledges
understanding why this is important.
You have to start bending the headers to make up for the 0.050 Y(or X)
spacing (on the new USB SERVO boards, in Y)
to fit a universal docking wiring header at 0.10 spacing
on the next board you're trying to plug into it.
The new QuickStart boards make the same mistake.......on the mountings.
Some of Parallax boards even have 0.050 layout spacing
from groups of headers to groups of headers in the same dimension,
forcing separate interface boards, where one could do.
If layout is held to 0.10 in both dimensions for interconnect.
These are supposed to be Experimenter's boards, so the next
level of docking interconnect and mounting needs to be addressed better.
If the answer is no, then go hard metric, you know you <want> to.
jr
You raise good points.
NO I not <want> metrics on Headers connectors.
BUT IC's pins spacing are metrics - And that we can't change. BUT standard things - Type Headers, Connectors we can have standardized to some already experimenting PCB's that we have to "PROPELLER I"
That give people that have Propeller I good start to!
That is my thinking
As we NOT know what can be done on Propeller II ..... We can't from start build full Demo Board.
But we need good board to experiment what is possible -- And how to achieve it!
I thought the spreadsheet might be useful for people creating their own PCB parts. With the software I use I can copy/paste the text into the Part Editor, or use the Library Integration Toolkit.
I'm in the process of updating it, and my PCB part. I'll finalise them when the official details are released. I'm not all that clear about how the I/Os will be grouped for setting the supply voltage. I've assumed that they will be in groups of 12, as in Chip's original image of the 128-lead pinout; that's how they are arranged in my updated schematic.
Prop2_Pins.bmp
THANKS.
And thanks to Chip for that
http://www.leonheller.com/Propeller/Propeller%20II%20pinout.xls
I think it matches Chip's image, but it would be nice if someone checked it.
I've updated the PCB part (schematic):
http://www.leonheller.com/Propeller/Propeller%20II.pdf
but haven't allocated the pins yet.
NOW we only need know reserved pins for BOOT configuration.
RX, TX to PC and pin's and type of device for Program storage.