I posted this as a possible modification for the computer being described by this thread, Though I do also need to post Idea_0C.gif to My SVGA thread. It works the same though with two props and for 15BPP, with Sprites, and minimal '3D acceleration' using COGS as GPU cores.
Is this how you plan to emulate the Amiga custom graphics chips on the Propeller?
Ok, I just ran a quick quote with my current PCB manufacturer.
Note that the following is NOT counted into the per-unit board prices:
$100 tooling (not included in, but you can see it referenced below the grid)
$260 e-test (not included in, but you can see it referenced below the grid)
$xxx shipping
$yyy brokerage/taxes
If I were to order 25 boards at the quote above price for 25 PCB, it would cost me approximately:
$100.00 tooling
$260.00 e-test
$272.00 for 25 PCB
$ 80.00 estimated shipping (could be a bit more, or a bit less, depends on weight)
sub total
$712.00
$ 86.64 estimated brokerage + taxes
sub total
$798.64
So not including shipping and handling to people who buy the boards my cost would be approx $798.64/25 = $31.94/pcb
Packaging would cost about $3
Small packet air would cost approx. $8, should handle 2 PCB's, maybe 3 for that price
so s/h for a pcb would be $11-$12 for continental US
Assuming:
- I run the files as-is
- the assumptions i made for the quote are correct
- I do not provide any support for the board
- 3 or 4 week lead time for PCB production, 3 day shipping to me
*results in roughly 5-6 week after 25 orders are placed before you have the boards
- as long as I got pre-orders for 25 boards
- some markup to cover my time and trouble
- HASL board, ROHS gold flash increases costs
- I may use a different fab to reduce my costs so its more worth my while, but would e-test
I could sell the boards for about $40+$12 small packet air s/h to continental US
Best guess, price would be about $36+$12 if people pre-paid 50 pcbs, but I would re-calculate based on number of pre-paid orders,
and it might be possible to get to $32+$12 if I could get 100 orders.
(The board could be a lot cheaper if I got an order for 200-500 boards)
In my testing I have been able to exceed a real Amiga 4000 by a factor of three, the difficulty will be in equaling the real AGA as some demos and games rely on them being as slow as the real thing.
In my testing I have been able to exceed a real Amiga 4000 by a factor of three, the difficulty will be in equaling the real AGA as some demos and games rely on them being as slow as the real thing.
Nice. It seems my doubts about the Propeller being able to handle Amiga-level graphics were unfounded. Maybe the retro computer project should set its sights higher and shoot for Amiga-level graphics instead of Atari 800.
The "HIVE people" sent me a free PCB some months ago just to thank me for SIDcog (which they use).
I am just to lazy to buy all the parts and heat up my iron.
I used 6 mil as that is my default for my orders, i know it is at least 8 mils, as the width of the race looked roughly 1/3 of 25 mil grid i used.
I can re-run the quote based on 8 mil and adjust if everyone thinks thats enough. I don't know how much difference it makes, but I am about to find out...
At 25pcs, it save $0.99 per board on my cost to have 8 mil traces / minimum spacing instead of 6mil, so I could to the boards for about $1.25 less, each
At 50pcs, it saves $0.69 per board on my cost to have 8 mil traces / minimum spacing instead of 6mil, so I could do the board for about $0.86 less, each
My personal opinion is it would be better to err on the side of caution and go 6 mil DRC rules. I don't really want to spend hours poring over the designs to ensure every trace/space is 8mil or bigger.
The big savings would be "no e-test", but people would scream they got a bad board.
Regards,
Bill
p.s.
if you, Nick, Bean, Ray, or Cluso99 want to do the boards and sell them for less, go for it - I only offered because people asked about getting boards, and I was curious about the design myself.
If Baggers and Coley are OK with it, and I get at least 25 paid orders before I start the run, I'll make a quote similar to the above and can produce them.
Of course I need to see the files to quote, and it would help if I knew their design rules (minimum hole/drill size, minimum trace width/space etc).
Heck, I am willing to do similar quotes, with terms like above, for any Open Source Hardware. I'd really prefer a minimum order of 50pcb's though.
Agreed, but this is a house I trust... and with big orders I obviously get a better price (and/or free etest).
I'd try to get a better price if there are enough orders, because the 25% I built in would not make enough on 25 units for my CFO to be happy (my wife is my CFO) and when wifey is not happy, I am not happy...
I'd try to get a better price if there are enough orders, because the 25% I built in would not make enough on 25 units for my CFO to be happy (my wife is my CFO) and when wifey is not happy, I am not happy...
Ya, I kind of figured that all along. I promise not to tell her you can make more than that
Since the thread is a little off track here are some comments...
My TriBlade pcb is 3x8" and cost me $25 per board. They were on a panel, 10 up to save production costs. I had 3 panels made (30 boards). I thought the pcb cost was way too expensive, but it was fun to build. I then went to smt and this is where you can save big costs on the pcb. I will post a separate thread with my forthcoming boards which are wip but should be off to production over Easter. I had been busy on a real prop project which is a 3 prop project similar in many ways to the TriBlade.
So I guess a question is in order...
Who wants a cheap small pcb with SMT prop versus expensive large pcb with thru hole? If smt, do you want it presoldered?
I made an error earlier due to drawing to quickly, so to correct I am posting a copy of the full high color block diagram (idea_0c.gif), with this and what I posted earlier you should be able to surmise the single Prop 6 bit version that I intended to present above.
I should note that the read write is also controlled by the blank out line (since it is reading during active time and writing during blanking).
This will be added to a new thread about my high color SVGA video, soon.
Hi! At N8VEM we are working on something which is very similar to what you are describing called the N8VEM home computer. It is kind of a mixture of an MSX1 computer with the later high performance Z180 based systems like SB-180, YASBEC, or P112. The purpose is to make a self contained computer much like the C64, Atari 800, Jupiter ACE, etc.
The main CPU is a Z8S180 (modernized Z80180) with 1MB SRAM, 1MB ROM, PS/2 keyboard, PS/2 mouse, dual serial, parallel port, IDE, SD, RTC, floppy drive controller, and parallel peripheral expansion port, optional RS-485 networking, dual joysticks, TMS9918A color video display, AY-3-8910 sound generator. The whole thing fits on a 6"x10" PCB and includes an ECB expansion port so existing N8VEM peripherals like the PropIO (VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD) can be used also.
During its design we considered using the Propeller for the display, SD, and keyboard functions but discarded that idea due to lack of MSX compatibility. Instead of a Propeller, we used the TMS9918A and AY-3-8910 sound generator for MSX compatibility. It won't be 100% MSX compatible but pretty close especially for applications which used the MSX BIOS.
The initial prototype boards are in initial build and test now as we are working on the boot ROM and various other issues. I am hoping get another round of prototype boards out before too long. The one thing I like about the Propeller is its VGA type display. If I had more PCB room, I would add one just for the nice 80 column VGA display for CP/M.
Like all the other N8VEM boards, the home computer is designed for hobbyist friendly construction with all DIP/PLCC PTH dual sided PCB. There are a couple SMT components in the SD card and an optional video amplifier.
Testing has been going well. The Z8S180 is very fast and is rated up to 33MHz although I haven't seen it tested yet on the home computer. Ironically to save complexity the CPU clock is also used for the UART timing so it makes for some really unusual CPU clock speeds to retain "normal" serial port speeds.
The home computer plus PropIO would make for an interesting combination with the Propeller handling the VGA display. I'll have to consider some way to including the Propeller in a later design.
In my testing I have been able to exceed a real Amiga 4000 by a factor of three, the difficulty will be in equaling the real AGA as some demos and games rely on them being as slow as the real thing.
Hi david,
Any chance of a vid of this in action? I'm ( amongst others on the forum ) very eager to see it!
Sure as soon as I can find drivers for my old serial quick cam, that work with current Linux distros. I would love to be able to post some videos to the MuAmi site.
Sure as soon as I can find drivers for my old serial quick cam, that work with current Linux distros. I would love to be able to post some videos to the MuAmi site.
No my phone does not have a working camera, unless you like 320x200 gray scale still pic only. I am still searching for the camera modules/libs between everything else, they have to be out there somewhere, I can not be the only left with one of these oldies.
Comments
Is this how you plan to emulate the Amiga custom graphics chips on the Propeller?
Note that the following is NOT counted into the per-unit board prices:
$100 tooling (not included in, but you can see it referenced below the grid)
$260 e-test (not included in, but you can see it referenced below the grid)
$xxx shipping
$yyy brokerage/taxes
If I were to order 25 boards at the quote above price for 25 PCB, it would cost me approximately:
$100.00 tooling
$260.00 e-test
$272.00 for 25 PCB
$ 80.00 estimated shipping (could be a bit more, or a bit less, depends on weight)
sub total
$712.00
$ 86.64 estimated brokerage + taxes
sub total
$798.64
So not including shipping and handling to people who buy the boards my cost would be approx $798.64/25 = $31.94/pcb
Packaging would cost about $3
Small packet air would cost approx. $8, should handle 2 PCB's, maybe 3 for that price
so s/h for a pcb would be $11-$12 for continental US
Assuming:
- I run the files as-is
- the assumptions i made for the quote are correct
- I do not provide any support for the board
- 3 or 4 week lead time for PCB production, 3 day shipping to me
*results in roughly 5-6 week after 25 orders are placed before you have the boards
- as long as I got pre-orders for 25 boards
- some markup to cover my time and trouble
- HASL board, ROHS gold flash increases costs
- I may use a different fab to reduce my costs so its more worth my while, but would e-test
I could sell the boards for about $40+$12 small packet air s/h to continental US
Best guess, price would be about $36+$12 if people pre-paid 50 pcbs, but I would re-calculate based on number of pre-paid orders,
and it might be possible to get to $32+$12 if I could get 100 orders.
(The board could be a lot cheaper if I got an order for 200-500 boards)
Regards,
Bill
Do you think you will be able to equal or exceed the performance of a real Amiga?
Nice. It seems my doubts about the Propeller being able to handle Amiga-level graphics were unfounded. Maybe the retro computer project should set its sights higher and shoot for Amiga-level graphics instead of Atari 800.
I'd be in for two (prepaid) if this goes forward. 23 left..
OBC
I'll go in for three (two for me, one for Sapieha) - have to increase my collection of Propeller platforms!
20 left from a 25 order (assuming Obc wants in on the smaller order, 22 if not)
45 left from a 50 order
Bill
I am just to lazy to buy all the parts and heat up my iron.
I can re-run the quote based on 8 mil and adjust if everyone thinks thats enough. I don't know how much difference it makes, but I am about to find out...
At 25pcs, it save $0.99 per board on my cost to have 8 mil traces / minimum spacing instead of 6mil, so I could to the boards for about $1.25 less, each
At 50pcs, it saves $0.69 per board on my cost to have 8 mil traces / minimum spacing instead of 6mil, so I could do the board for about $0.86 less, each
My personal opinion is it would be better to err on the side of caution and go 6 mil DRC rules. I don't really want to spend hours poring over the designs to ensure every trace/space is 8mil or bigger.
The big savings would be "no e-test", but people would scream they got a bad board.
Regards,
Bill
p.s.
if you, Nick, Bean, Ray, or Cluso99 want to do the boards and sell them for less, go for it - I only offered because people asked about getting boards, and I was curious about the design myself.
Yep, that is one HUGE PCB!
e-test is the other culprit.
Of course I need to see the files to quote, and it would help if I knew their design rules (minimum hole/drill size, minimum trace width/space etc).
Heck, I am willing to do similar quotes, with terms like above, for any Open Source Hardware. I'd really prefer a minimum order of 50pcb's though.
I'd try to get a better price if there are enough orders, because the 25% I built in would not make enough on 25 units for my CFO to be happy (my wife is my CFO) and when wifey is not happy, I am not happy...
My TriBlade pcb is 3x8" and cost me $25 per board. They were on a panel, 10 up to save production costs. I had 3 panels made (30 boards). I thought the pcb cost was way too expensive, but it was fun to build. I then went to smt and this is where you can save big costs on the pcb. I will post a separate thread with my forthcoming boards which are wip but should be off to production over Easter. I had been busy on a real prop project which is a 3 prop project similar in many ways to the TriBlade.
So I guess a question is in order...
Who wants a cheap small pcb with SMT prop versus expensive large pcb with thru hole? If smt, do you want it presoldered?
I should note that the read write is also controlled by the blank out line (since it is reading during active time and writing during blanking).
This will be added to a new thread about my high color SVGA video, soon.
The main CPU is a Z8S180 (modernized Z80180) with 1MB SRAM, 1MB ROM, PS/2 keyboard, PS/2 mouse, dual serial, parallel port, IDE, SD, RTC, floppy drive controller, and parallel peripheral expansion port, optional RS-485 networking, dual joysticks, TMS9918A color video display, AY-3-8910 sound generator. The whole thing fits on a 6"x10" PCB and includes an ECB expansion port so existing N8VEM peripherals like the PropIO (VGA, PS/2 keyboard, microSD) can be used also.
During its design we considered using the Propeller for the display, SD, and keyboard functions but discarded that idea due to lack of MSX compatibility. Instead of a Propeller, we used the TMS9918A and AY-3-8910 sound generator for MSX compatibility. It won't be 100% MSX compatible but pretty close especially for applications which used the MSX BIOS.
The initial prototype boards are in initial build and test now as we are working on the boot ROM and various other issues. I am hoping get another round of prototype boards out before too long. The one thing I like about the Propeller is its VGA type display. If I had more PCB room, I would add one just for the nice 80 column VGA display for CP/M.
Like all the other N8VEM boards, the home computer is designed for hobbyist friendly construction with all DIP/PLCC PTH dual sided PCB. There are a couple SMT components in the SD card and an optional video amplifier.
Testing has been going well. The Z8S180 is very fast and is rated up to 33MHz although I haven't seen it tested yet on the home computer. Ironically to save complexity the CPU clock is also used for the UART timing so it makes for some really unusual CPU clock speeds to retain "normal" serial port speeds.
The home computer plus PropIO would make for an interesting combination with the Propeller handling the VGA display. I'll have to consider some way to including the Propeller in a later design.
Thanks and have a nice day!
Andrew Lynch
Hi david,
Any chance of a vid of this in action? I'm ( amongst others on the forum ) very eager to see it!
Nice one
It has almost hijacked this thread, let this thread return to being targeted to the system that Bean proposed.