Where can anyone get a hybrid x3? does it come with a pile of "here's how we made it do stuff" code as well? as an eagle user, I'd also be interested in those files if they are available.
A thread right up my alley... Been off sick for a couple days. (flu) but I caught the gist of this thread late last night.
Some Random Thoughts:
First of all, I love the idea of a Propeller based retro computer. I've been scheming around the idea of a multiprop design of my own for a long time. The concept of separating the video to another Propeller is solid, as I think separating the audio to a third Propeller. (Wasn't the PropGFX lite code going to be released at some point?)
One concern. This group is constantly running in a million directions all the time. As mentioned there are multiple board designs (some even perfect for this project) which are coming out of the woodwork. This creates difficulty in any one board obtaining traction to really move forward. With that in mind how about a module that fits the existing Propeller Platform?
I had an idea for a 4 prop computer using BeauNet type connection between props. The links would have 2 advantages to hopefully make it drive faster. Since I planed on putting the on the same clock source, packet and frame sizes could be a lot longer, without overhead in between. Since the links would be short hopefully I could run them faster as well....but this is just thoughts at this point. The below sketch is what I drew up over passover weekend on my phone, so it is a bit crude. The red line is the reset input for each chip.
So my questions are these:
Why are most multiprop projects supplying multiple clock sources? I would think it would be easier to make 1 and amplify it for all props.
Why are most multiprop projects supplying multiple eeprom chips? Since you could boot each prop off another it would make more sense to boot off another prop and then reuse the 2 pins for high speed serial.
Sorry to hear you were sick, hopefully you are better now.
The place to standardize is at the object/method level, not the hardware level. It would stiffle innovation too much to try to declare "THE" retro propeller platform.
Your MIGS joystick object is definitely a step in the right direction... and it is in my PropCade development folder so I can provide you with a PropCade MIGS object as soon as I have a bit of time
A thread right up my alley... Been off sick for a couple days. (flu) but I caught the gist of this thread late last night.
Some Random Thoughts:
First of all, I love the idea of a Propeller based retro computer. I've been scheming around the idea of a multiprop design of my own for a long time. The concept of separating the video to another Propeller is solid, as I think separating the audio to a third Propeller. (Wasn't the PropGFX lite code going to be released at some point?)
One concern. This group is constantly running in a million directions all the time. As mentioned there are multiple board designs (some even perfect for this project) which are coming out of the woodwork. This creates difficulty in any one board obtaining traction to really move forward. With that in mind how about a module that fits the existing Propeller Platform?
I was wondering if there is any interest in making a propeller based "retro" computer ?
This discussion has been really interesting and I'm excited about some of the multi-propeller boards that have been mentioned as possible platforms for this project. I'd like to step back a minute though and ask what exactly you mean by "retro computer". I'm assuming you don't mean an emulation of some existing computer. What makes something a retro computer? Is it that you can type in programs on it directly? I guess you plan to use VGA video so it won't be like old personal computers that generated TV output. Can you explain what you mean by "retro" in the context of this project?
just thinking about how something like this may work (a multiprop board) from the basic programming level. Would each propeller have a set of commands that it could recieve and process? For example, if I wanted to draw a character at a specific location from the "I/O propeller" to the "video prop" how would that work? Would there be a "command" that would be sent along the lines of: "VidProp.PutCharacter( atX, atY, someChar)" for example. Or if the "user interface prop" wanted to read an I/O location would there be a command like: "IOProp.ReadByte( fromAddress)" .... Just wondering a bit how something like this may work
Let's start by quit calling it a "retro" computer.
I'd rather not duplicate what has been done before. (placing a Propeller inside a keyboard, although that compaq addon certainly looks lovely!)
I'd rather focus on what I would want from someone like Commodore or Atari if they had continued to be in the business today.
Here are some things I would want...
* The ability to change and adjust everything aspect. (we've got that thanks to the Propeller)
* Don't use PC keyboards. PC's are soul-less, everything about them screams generic.
* Something small enough to be packed up to travel. The weather is about to be nice. A solar adapter to use it in the park would be awesome.
Hmm.. I've almost described the C3 with the addition of a IR keyboard setup.
I'd rather focus on what I would want from someone like Commodore or Atari if they had continued to be in the business today.
That sounds interesting but I don't think the Propeller is up to it. For instance, the Commodore Amiga had pretty fancy graphics hardware that can't be equaled by the Propeller as far as I know. I guess the Atari ST might be easier to match because it didn't have that much fancy graphics support. However, it could handle a much higher resolution display and more colors than are possible on the Propeller 1. Seems like we have to set our sites on the machines that predated those later efforts by Commodore and Atari.
For instance, the Commodore Amiga had pretty fancy graphics hardware that can't be equaled by the Propeller as far as I know.
The Amiga is not a Commodore, always have been seperate entities. CBM did hold Amiga for a time and did provide for manufacturing, this does not chang that Amiga is not CBM, and amiga has never stopped producing (CBM went under in the early 90s).
The Amiga is not a Commodore, always have been seperate entities. CBM did hold Amiga for a time and did provide for manufacturing, this does not chang that Amiga is not CBM, and amiga has never stopped producing (CBM went under in the early 90s).
I guess I was thinking of the Amiga I played with when I worked for BYTE Magazine back when it was first introduced. It certainly said "Commodore" on it at the time. I only mentioned it because I think it was the most advanced graphics machine that Commodore produced. Maybe we can consider the Atari 800 instead. Can we generate Atari 800 level graphics on the Propeller? I suspect we can.
I like David Betz idea - goal should be Atari 800 graphics. The Atari 800 could produce 320 x 192: 1 bit graphics, 160 x 192: 2 bit graphics, 80 x 192: 4 bit graphics along with other modes and it could show graphics and text on the screen at the same time. It also has player missle (sprite) graphic overlay and some other nice effects like smooth scrolling and the screen colors could be changed at each scan line during VBI.
It eats most of a Propeller's memory, but then using it as a dedicated video processor, it should work fine. It just needs a little TLC to get some friendly methods established for it.
A two prop setup can easily do this, three will make it even better.
I've attached the API guide for PropGFX Lite, all we need to do is convince Baggers to release the code and you will have exactly what you want.
There already is a retro-style computer based on three Propellers - the HIVE. It has 1 MB of RAM, VGA, TV out, PS/2, audio out, serial, LAN and an SD card slot. An operating system (under constant development) exists as well. As far as I know, there are more than 100 units existing already.
Collective PCB orders are arranged from time to time when enough new people are interested.
Just a thought, though modify the design slightly to include something like the attached to improve the video a little and Atari ST style GFX would be doable. The lower 2 address bits would be provided by the video generator, to get higher than 512x480 resolutions, and more ram may be needed in some cases, this could add 2 more address lines.
NOTE: I did not show the needed 2 control lines, this would take 26 pins.
There already is a retro-style computer based on three Propellers - the HIVE. It has 1 MB of RAM, VGA, TV out, PS/2, audio out, serial, LAN and an SD card slot. An operating system (under constant development) exists as well. As far as I know, there are more than 100 units existing already.
Good Lord! That thing has really grown legs! We need a US distributor for this board.
Good Lord! That thing has really grown legs! We need a US distributor for this board.
Since the PCB is open source, you could simply take the file and order a number of boards from a US-based custom PCB manufacturer – preferably after collecting pre-orders from a sufficient number of people to ensure a reasonable per unit price. The HIVE community will gladly provide help in English where the Google-translated instructions are not sufficient.
If you are interested, best would be to post any questions in the English section of the HIVE forum.
Since the PCB is open source, you could simply take the file and order a number of boards from a US-based custom PCB manufacturer – preferably after collecting pre-orders from a sufficient number of people to ensure a reasonable per unit price. The HIVE community will gladly provide help in English where the Google-translated instructions are not sufficient.
If you are interested, best would be to post any questions in the English section of the HIVE forum.
Heck, I'd love to try their OS and software, as long as people translate it to English :-)
I did not try it yet, because my HIVE is still awaiting completion, but I'm quite sure that at least the OS commands are all in English. Not sure how much of the text output is English though. Please contact the main OS developer "drohne235" in the HIVE forum for details. The latest version even includes a ready-to-use FORTH implementation.
There is some English help for building the HIVE in the forum. We have one native English-speaking user there ("prof_braino") who is very helpful. http://hive-project.de/board/viewforum.php?f=18
I posted this as a possible modification for the computer being described by this thread, Though I do also need to post Idea_0C.gif to My SVGA thread. It works the same though with two props and for 15BPP, with Sprites, and minimal '3D acceleration' using COGS as GPU cores.
Comments
As Bean said later, it fits his requirements to a 'T'!
Some Random Thoughts:
First of all, I love the idea of a Propeller based retro computer. I've been scheming around the idea of a multiprop design of my own for a long time. The concept of separating the video to another Propeller is solid, as I think separating the audio to a third Propeller. (Wasn't the PropGFX lite code going to be released at some point?)
One concern. This group is constantly running in a million directions all the time. As mentioned there are multiple board designs (some even perfect for this project) which are coming out of the woodwork. This creates difficulty in any one board obtaining traction to really move forward. With that in mind how about a module that fits the existing Propeller Platform?
OBC
So my questions are these:
Why are most multiprop projects supplying multiple clock sources? I would think it would be easier to make 1 and amplify it for all props.
Why are most multiprop projects supplying multiple eeprom chips? Since you could boot each prop off another it would make more sense to boot off another prop and then reuse the 2 pins for high speed serial.
Sorry to hear you were sick, hopefully you are better now.
The place to standardize is at the object/method level, not the hardware level. It would stiffle innovation too much to try to declare "THE" retro propeller platform.
Your MIGS joystick object is definitely a step in the right direction... and it is in my PropCade development folder so I can provide you with a PropCade MIGS object as soon as I have a bit of time
Bill
The original version of Morpheus had Prop1 generating the clock for Prop2, and the Prop2 eeprom is optional on all versions of Morpheus.
I had problems with generating video on Prop2 with the clock supplied by Prop1.
Using a common clock for multiple Props could work well, I've considered doing that for some of my future designs.
Bill
I'd rather not duplicate what has been done before. (placing a Propeller inside a keyboard, although that compaq addon certainly looks lovely!)
I'd rather focus on what I would want from someone like Commodore or Atari if they had continued to be in the business today.
Here are some things I would want...
* The ability to change and adjust everything aspect. (we've got that thanks to the Propeller)
* Don't use PC keyboards. PC's are soul-less, everything about them screams generic.
* Something small enough to be packed up to travel. The weather is about to be nice. A solar adapter to use it in the park would be awesome.
Hmm.. I've almost described the C3 with the addition of a IR keyboard setup.
OBC
http://www.savagecircuits.com/forums/showthread.php?505-160x192-High-Color-1-byte-Pixel-sound-interesting
It eats most of a Propeller's memory, but then using it as a dedicated video processor, it should work fine. It just needs a little TLC to get some friendly methods established for it.
OBC
I've attached the API guide for PropGFX Lite, all we need to do is convince Baggers to release the code and you will have exactly what you want.
PropGFX Programming Reference.pdf
Regards,
Coley
Collective PCB orders are arranged from time to time when enough new people are interested.
The problem is that most of the information is in German only, but you can use Google Translate for an overview:
http://translate.google.de/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fhive-project.de%2F&act=url
The HIVE forum also has an English section:
http://hive-project.de/board/viewforum.php?f=18
Click here to see some pictures: http://hive-project.de/galerie/bilderserie-aufbau-bausatz
NOTE: I did not show the needed 2 control lines, this would take 26 pins.
Good Lord! That thing has really grown legs! We need a US distributor for this board.
OBC
If you are interested, best would be to post any questions in the English section of the HIVE forum.
I could only sell the bare PCB, as the inventory costs would be too high for the low volume for a specific OSS board like this.
Heck, I'd love to try their OS and software, as long as people translate it to English :-)
What I need to know is:
1) size of the pcb (looking at it, approx. 6"x4")
2) who wants how many boards
3) if people want me to try to get it into distribution
I suggest no distribution, as distributors want 45%-55% off the price of the board, so it would double the price.
LOL I was typing a long message, and you replied while I did that!
Nick can do it if he likes, I have to look at the PCB files first before I see if I want to make it.
Had the exact same thought.. Nick???
Here is a ZIP file including the Eagle files: http://hive-project.de/downloads/28
PCB size is 6.3" x 3.9".
I did not try it yet, because my HIVE is still awaiting completion, but I'm quite sure that at least the OS commands are all in English. Not sure how much of the text output is English though. Please contact the main OS developer "drohne235" in the HIVE forum for details. The latest version even includes a ready-to-use FORTH implementation.
There is some English help for building the HIVE in the forum. We have one native English-speaking user there ("prof_braino") who is very helpful.
http://hive-project.de/board/viewforum.php?f=18