There are at least two reasons this is unlikely to happen:
1) Lawyers. Why haven't any/most of the offiers for technolgy been accepted? Because the Lawyers have a desire to keep things "instulated" from potential outside liabilities. What happens to poor BP if they try something and it doesn't work, or worse yet, makes more of a mess than they started with?
2) Arrogance. Coupled with number 1, it makes it very unlikely that BP will accept/turn to significant outside help without some type of intervention, most likely by somebody elses lawyers.
Reason #3) Parallax is probably roughly the gajillionth largest/most well-known company in America. Even sticking to just technology companies and assuming BP _were_ willing to ask for that kind of help, they'd get around to asking Parallax sometime in the year 2140. I can think of three people I know personally who are likely to be higher up the list than Parallax is. No offense to Parallax, obviously - they're not claiming to be oil rig specialists or environmental cleanup specialists.
Yes, they are. But call me cynical, how many are they actually using/trying/really evaluating?
Some to be sure, but one has to question the level of "enthusiasm" for any outside ideas. Even the feds state "without BP, we can't solve this". What the heck kind of message is that?
I'm guessing that based on what I've read so far, the drunk captain is going to end up looking like an upstanding citizen, between laxy regulators, lax internal controls, lack of oversight, etc.
We digress. To trivialize the efforts thus far, regardless of the results (or lack thereof) is not fair either. One just hopes they are already working on the next "plan b", and not waiting for the current iteration to fail first.
"Even the feds state 'without BP, we can't solve this'. What the heck kind of message is that?"
A factual one, unfortunately. The oil industry are the only ones with the knowhow and equipment to deal with a situation like this. They're not idiots. Unlike the corporate dweebs who are more concerned about fiscal liability and "getting my life back" (as their CEO actually said, as if that were his biggest concern in the face of an unprecedented environmental disaster), there really are top-notch engineers working around the clock on the problem. It's just that the problem is so intractable that the best and brightest have not been able to solve it.
For an example of calm expertise under fire (in contrast with their CEO's posturing and evasive maneuvering), one has to look no further than this tech briefing, which explains the (now failed) "top kill" attempt:
i submitted my sugesstion, we'll see what comes from it. my suggestion is for a vented dome with a thick rubber inflatable ring around the bottom that would fit around and just below the flange/bulkhead that they are cutting right now. then inflate the rubber ring with some sort of fluid to grab hold of the pipe below the flange. then the vents above on the dome could be remotely closed to force the oil up a large pipe at the top of the dome to collect into a tanker on the surface. it wouldn't stop it, but it would control where it flowed to. gotta be better that whats happening now.
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Or give this guy some duct tape and a paperclip and have at it!
(mind you, i'm not poking fun at the plight of the gulf coast residents, just the absurdity that bp doesn't have a clue on how to fix their major screw-up)
·
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
So, this all happened before. A little over 30 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo
Exactly the same failures, too. They tried all of the same things then. None of them worked.
I remember this on the news when I was a kid.
The oil industry does not have the "knowhow" to solve this any differently than they did 30+ years ago. Expect this leak to go on for a long time (several more months), until they get the relief·rigs drilled.
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Also, might i add, on the suggestion form, they limit you to 200 words or less. (?!?) is that an inclination to how serious they are taking peoples suggestions? if the problem is so big that some of the worlds most brilliant (according to their news breifings)·people cant come up with something to stop or control it, how feasable is a 200 word blurb gonna be? just my $0.02 worth.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
My nephew is an intern at Baker-Hughes. He said they are devoting a great deal of resources to this problem and they're cetainly not doing it on their own dime. If the execs at BP have 2 brain cells to rub together, they realize their company's survival is on the line and they'll back up a truckload of money to anyones door who might be able to help them. I suspect it's one of those Manhattan Project type things, even with all the money in the world it takes time.
I'm not sure how I missed that one, oh yea, I was about 20 something, and only cared about computers and sometimes girls. [noparse]:)[/noparse] Probably didn't have a TV at the time.
I'm not a fan of Rachel, but that was a very well done report. Thanks for sharing!
Jim
Roy Eltham said...
So, this all happened before. A little over 30 years ago. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHmhxpQEGPo
Exactly the same failures, too. They tried all of the same things then. None of them worked.
I remember this on the news when I was a kid.
The oil industry does not have the "knowhow" to solve this any differently than they did 30+ years ago. Expect this leak to go on for a long time (several more months), until they get the relief·rigs drilled.
Yeah, Rachel's always a bit full of herself, but that was a good report. Like Jim, I don't remember the 1979 leak, but I didn't have a TV back then either. (I'm surprised NBC hasn't treated us to the same footage, since it originated with them.)
Yeah, did you notice the 30 minute video of the bubble level this morning? that was exciting! (NOT) it was showing the cutting then all of a sudden it panned around to the bubble level that looked like it was 2-3 foot in diameter. wonder what that was all about?
Martin Hodge said...
If anyone knows of a 12-step program for spill-cam addicts, please send the info my way, eh?
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kf4ixm: they need this cut to be level in order to fit the LMPR(?) cap on it properly.
The ROV live feeds are more interesting than the feeds that were just on the spew from the pipe.
Also, I'm not a fan of tv news or newstalk shows at all (honestly had no idea who Rachel Maddow was before a couple days ago), but that was a decent video clip that I stumbled on. I do occasioinally enjoy a clip of Jon Stewert or Robert Colbert, but only when someone points me at a funny one.
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I am not an electrical engineer and I will never be as good of a programmer as many of you. I am, however, a mechanical engineer who works for a very large fluid control company and believes that much of the general public is misguided on how difficult solutions to these types of problems are.
There are probably many different solutions to stopping the flow of oil into the gulf but how many of them have a quick turn around that the public demands?
The pressure at that depth is over 2000 psi. I don't have any calculations prepared but if need be, I will work out the thickness required to contain 2000 psi in a pressure vessel using whatever metal you like tomorrow. It is 5000' below sea level. The fluid within the well is at a higher pressure or it would not be flowing into the ocean. There are also ocean currents, temperature drops, etc. All of which cause there own unique spin on a solution and what type of equipment can be used towards that solution.
More issues arise because it is very hard to have products on hand in larger industrial companies. For instance,everything that comes out of our location is engineered and has high lead times. An incomplete product cycle goes something like this: parts need to be designed, parts cast, parts machined, assembled, product tested, etc. This is why some ideas, although good, take a high level of time to materialize. Everyone wants this stopped now and are looking for faster, unproven methods.
I am not an advocate of how large corporations act and I find this oil spill disheartening. I am merely trying to remind everyone that there are many talented, honest individuals out there who are sincere in their efforts to stop this disaster. It's not always as easy as everyone thinks.
i kinda thought that, but the bubble i seen was WAY off center, almost full 230 degrees over from center and stayed there. i guess thats when they run into their "snag" as the nyt reported this afternoon, something about the blade failing or something.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
The pressure at that depth is over 2000 psi. I don't have any calculations prepared but if need be, I will work out the thickness required to contain 2000 psi in a pressure vessel using whatever metal you like tomorrow. It is 5000' below sea level. The fluid within the well is at a higher pressure or it would not be flowing into the ocean. There are also ocean currents, temperature drops, etc. All of which cause there own unique spin on a solution and what type of equipment can be used towards that solution.
They won't contain it fully until the relief wells are drilled.
"BP CEO: We Do Not Have the Tools"-ABC News
I think they would have shut it off if they could and their stock is taking a hit not to mention how much they will have to spend, etc.· I think that the CEO, some of the bond holders·and managers should be required to clean some birds and spend some time in community service cleaning up the spill.· How many would agree to support this?
Maybe you misunderstood my post, or maybe I misunderstood yours? I never said they could stop the leak easily. I tried to explain how difficult it is to stop the leak and how many of the ideas out there that may work, will virtually take too long.
We had stuff fall at work and I tried to stop it and there was no physical way for me to stop it.· It left my hands stinging.
They can try to cap it but there is a mountain of oil in there and since oil is lighter than water, it won't stop.· I personally don't think they have a strong enough arm to put the cap on but we'll see.· It is basically an underwater·robot or two (maybe more) against a mountain of force.· The underwater robots are going to generate up to 25 or 30 knots of force against 6,000 psi?· And if they can cap it then oil will still be leaking out.
There is a ship·underwater in·Pearl Harbor that is still leaking oil since WWII.· They haven't stopped it yet.
If you're talking about helping stop the oil leak, I'm guessing a donut-shaped explosive lens focused at the pipe within the BOP stack might be able to crimp it shut. I'm not sure a Propeller chip would be able to time such a precision crimp job like that, but with 4th of July coming up, you could always practice in your backyard that night.
But if you're talking about helping out BP itself, an explosive pipe crimper would mess up their bore hole and make it impossible to get that particular hole back on line in the near future, so I'd say a finger-pointing machine is what they will need very soon. And lots of them. But I doubt Parallax could ever stock enough chips and servos to keep that many digits aiming to and fro.
You can't just cap off the well, there's to much Diff. Presser. This is what blew out the blow-out preventer.The oil and natural gas must be vented off.This is why BP wants to drill relief wells.
Their latest fix has a hose attached to the top witch would vent the presser to a tanker on the surface. The lower half works like KF4ixm idea to seal around the clean cut pipe on the well casing.
I think crimping off the pipe would just push the well casing out of the ocean floor. This would make a real mess.
I'm still for off-shore drilling,But we need to get better at it. If we don't drill out there, China will. Do you really think China cares about the environment and will have better safety's?
Just my 2 cents worth
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The Truth is out there············___$WMc%___···························· BoogerWoods, FL. USA
You can feel stupid by asking a stupid question or You can be really·stupid by not asking at all.·
$WMc% said...
You can't just cap off the well, there's to much Diff. Presser.
What is the differential pressure? It is not terribly relevant that the pressure at depth is 2,000 psi, the difference in pressure between the well and the seawater is what is important.
LilDi
Posts: 229
Comments
1) Lawyers. Why haven't any/most of the offiers for technolgy been accepted? Because the Lawyers have a desire to keep things "instulated" from potential outside liabilities. What happens to poor BP if they try something and it doesn't work, or worse yet, makes more of a mess than they started with?
2) Arrogance. Coupled with number 1, it makes it very unlikely that BP will accept/turn to significant outside help without some type of intervention, most likely by somebody elses lawyers.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
www.deepwaterhorizonresponse.com/go/doc/2931/546759/
There's a link on that page to a form you can fill out with your ideas.
-Phil
Some to be sure, but one has to question the level of "enthusiasm" for any outside ideas. Even the feds state "without BP, we can't solve this". What the heck kind of message is that?
I'm guessing that based on what I've read so far, the drunk captain is going to end up looking like an upstanding citizen, between laxy regulators, lax internal controls, lack of oversight, etc.
We digress. To trivialize the efforts thus far, regardless of the results (or lack thereof) is not fair either. One just hopes they are already working on the next "plan b", and not waiting for the current iteration to fail first.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
A factual one, unfortunately. The oil industry are the only ones with the knowhow and equipment to deal with a situation like this. They're not idiots. Unlike the corporate dweebs who are more concerned about fiscal liability and "getting my life back" (as their CEO actually said, as if that were his biggest concern in the face of an unprecedented environmental disaster), there really are top-notch engineers working around the clock on the problem. It's just that the problem is so intractable that the best and brightest have not been able to solve it.
For an example of calm expertise under fire (in contrast with their CEO's posturing and evasive maneuvering), one has to look no further than this tech briefing, which explains the (now failed) "top kill" attempt:
bp.concerts.com/gom/kentwells_update24052010.htm
-Phil
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I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
(mind you, i'm not poking fun at the plight of the gulf coast residents, just the absurdity that bp doesn't have a clue on how to fix their major screw-up)
·
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I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
Post Edited (kf4ixm) : 6/2/2010 11:12:39 PM GMT
Exactly the same failures, too. They tried all of the same things then. None of them worked.
I remember this on the news when I was a kid.
The oil industry does not have the "knowhow" to solve this any differently than they did 30+ years ago. Expect this leak to go on for a long time (several more months), until they get the relief·rigs drilled.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
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I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
Mind you, I'm not saying that what BP is doing isn't appropriate, but they are not the only people with the know how.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
I'm not sure how I missed that one, oh yea, I was about 20 something, and only cared about computers and sometimes girls. [noparse]:)[/noparse] Probably didn't have a TV at the time.
I'm not a fan of Rachel, but that was a very well done report. Thanks for sharing!
Jim
-Phil
I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
The ROV live feeds are more interesting than the feeds that were just on the spew from the pipe.
Also, I'm not a fan of tv news or newstalk shows at all (honestly had no idea who Rachel Maddow was before a couple days ago), but that was a decent video clip that I stumbled on. I do occasioinally enjoy a clip of Jon Stewert or Robert Colbert, but only when someone points me at a funny one.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
There are probably many different solutions to stopping the flow of oil into the gulf but how many of them have a quick turn around that the public demands?
The pressure at that depth is over 2000 psi. I don't have any calculations prepared but if need be, I will work out the thickness required to contain 2000 psi in a pressure vessel using whatever metal you like tomorrow. It is 5000' below sea level. The fluid within the well is at a higher pressure or it would not be flowing into the ocean. There are also ocean currents, temperature drops, etc. All of which cause there own unique spin on a solution and what type of equipment can be used towards that solution.
More issues arise because it is very hard to have products on hand in larger industrial companies. For instance,everything that comes out of our location is engineered and has high lead times. An incomplete product cycle goes something like this: parts need to be designed, parts cast, parts machined, assembled, product tested, etc. This is why some ideas, although good, take a high level of time to materialize. Everyone wants this stopped now and are looking for faster, unproven methods.
I am not an advocate of how large corporations act and I find this oil spill disheartening. I am merely trying to remind everyone that there are many talented, honest individuals out there who are sincere in their efforts to stop this disaster. It's not always as easy as everyone thinks.
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I'm just 7*1027 atoms floating through time and space in close formation. -KF4IXM
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www.fd.com.my
www.mercedes.com.my
"BP CEO: We Do Not Have the Tools"-ABC News
I think they would have shut it off if they could and their stock is taking a hit not to mention how much they will have to spend, etc.· I think that the CEO, some of the bond holders·and managers should be required to clean some birds and spend some time in community service cleaning up the spill.· How many would agree to support this?
·
Maybe you misunderstood my post, or maybe I misunderstood yours? I never said they could stop the leak easily. I tried to explain how difficult it is to stop the leak and how many of the ideas out there that may work, will virtually take too long.
Post Edited (AJM) : 6/3/2010 1:56:15 PM GMT
I was just responding to the topic.
We had stuff fall at work and I tried to stop it and there was no physical way for me to stop it.· It left my hands stinging.
They can try to cap it but there is a mountain of oil in there and since oil is lighter than water, it won't stop.· I personally don't think they have a strong enough arm to put the cap on but we'll see.· It is basically an underwater·robot or two (maybe more) against a mountain of force.· The underwater robots are going to generate up to 25 or 30 knots of force against 6,000 psi?· And if they can cap it then oil will still be leaking out.
There is a ship·underwater in·Pearl Harbor that is still leaking oil since WWII.· They haven't stopped it yet.
Chuck
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZsMxQOiLQU
If so, these guys deserve the Nobel prize.
OBC
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Propeller Feature Projects: PropellerPowered.com
Visit the: PROPELLERPOWERED SIG forum kindly hosted by Savage Circuits.
On the plus side you could probably overclock the Propeller to 160 MHz with that kind of high-pressure four degree C water cooling.
But if you're talking about helping out BP itself, an explosive pipe crimper would mess up their bore hole and make it impossible to get that particular hole back on line in the near future, so I'd say a finger-pointing machine is what they will need very soon. And lots of them. But I doubt Parallax could ever stock enough chips and servos to keep that many digits aiming to and fro.
Their latest fix has a hose attached to the top witch would vent the presser to a tanker on the surface. The lower half works like KF4ixm idea to seal around the clean cut pipe on the well casing.
I think crimping off the pipe would just push the well casing out of the ocean floor. This would make a real mess.
I'm still for off-shore drilling,But we need to get better at it. If we don't drill out there, China will. Do you really think China cares about the environment and will have better safety's?
Just my 2 cents worth
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The Truth is out there············___$WMc%___···························· BoogerWoods, FL. USA
You can feel stupid by asking a stupid question or You can be really·stupid by not asking at all.·
What is the differential pressure? It is not terribly relevant that the pressure at depth is 2,000 psi, the difference in pressure between the well and the seawater is what is important.
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.