Sure, Parallax can create Wiring and Processing libraries for Arduino-nauts to use the Propeller.
But I imagine I will never figure out what they are talking about Engineers tend to be generic in mindset, seeking universal conceptual constructs and in some ways trying to reverse engineer what other people are succeeding at. Arduino-nauts are consumers of sorts that want to feel a comfort zone and empowered. But maybe if I went to a few meetings I could find an interesting girl friend. They create sales for Arduino, but it is all dependent on the Arduino way. I get visions of technological Tuperware.
I don't mean to be anti-social. Parallax Forum is very much about welcoming all and everyone. It is a oasis where one can get a real answer in a desert of deadend search listings. But the Arduino is particularly peculiar. The power and excellence of the underlying AVR micro-controller and the IDE seem to overcome all that to get results.
Which is really better for education?
I fear the Arduino approach is somewhat like the 'new math'. It is supposed to make it all easier for the novice, but one tends to stay a novice. After all, wiring to me is what I do with a soldering iron. Processing is generally a perpetual main loop. Both wiring and processing are rather noble terms that I am not exactly sure of in the Arduino context.
Admittedly, Spin seems to be a little jargon-like, but it is based on utility, not marketing.
One of the more interesting controversies is that PBasic is too primitive as it only uses integer maths. Many of the BasicStamp clones have done a lot of Parallax bashing on that one point.
But the reality is that integer math is what micro-controllers want, and often not even signed integer. Floating point programing is for mainframes in banks with mortgage calculations, Excel spreadsheets, and 10 key calculators. Sure, you can do it on a small micro-controller, but with a huge waste of resources if it isn't needed. By not having it available in PBasic, the beginner moves more directly into the nature of micro-controllers - not far and away into exotic IDEs and huge programs. Eventually, the PBasic approach opens the mind to understanding assembly language in a very intuitive manner.
Parallax seems to follow the famous architect, Mie Van der Roe - 'More is less and less is more'.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 7/28/2010 5:28:03 PM GMT
Parallax and many posters here don't get Ardunino because they are hard core geeks while the Arduninos are mostly non-techies.
Different audience, different approach.
Geeks just don't get it that not everyone who uses microcontrollers wants to do assembly language, write their own C compiler or build a OS for fun like those in the Prop forum do.
Heck they ought to be celebrating that Ardunino has managed to attract them where others have failed instead of knocking them and their model. It works and works well. And they are already working at creating ARM and AVR32 shields.
My Only issue with C is how much I hated My PIC class back in college..
Why ? becasue the Linker the downloader the editor and all that jazz was seprit programs and was a Royal PAIN to use .
where as the pBasic stuff is in one program .
we wwaisted SO much class time just trying to load a Hello world to out PIC ..
I would rather spend my time programming the chip and learning and not playing computer repair tech for a hour .
*********************
and this is MY personal Opinion but I have not found any Mid price range GOOD IDEs for PICs ..
there is the free stuff that from what WE found in class was Super buggy and cranky . and there is the $2000
"lets go in to production to make 1,000,000 PIC based TV remots" version for company's.
******************
and then there is the whole MAC PC LINUX issue
I LOVE the BS2 SW for teh mac I know its not from parallax BUT it works so well.
for the education market you will run in to more then just PCs with XP . there are MACs and LinuxBoxes too.
and for the BS2 I can get a GOOD WORKING Editor for all 3 with out doing curcus tricks .
Oh shure I could recompile a TarBall to run on my red hat system . but If I could do that I would be In programming as a major hehe.
the lack of consistent RPM/DEB and a universal OSX and a Win 2K and above compatable Software is what turns me off to all the other brands out there ..
Mind I have not Used a Prop yet so I cant compare it .
but as a graduated EE tech student and one who is back in college ( for Theatre arts of all things ) I Know from the inside what us students have to deal with ..
Just this week we had a tech camp here at IHCC .. they all used the BS2 HW board .
and from what I heard
Very Few of the HS kids needed ANY kind of help with Downloading to the HomeWork Board.
they used Gosubs and each student wrote about 50Lines of code ..
Peter KG6LSE
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"Carpe Ducktum" "seize the tape!!" peterthethinker.com/tesla/Venom/Venom.html
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S.
LOL
Post Edited (Peter KG6LSE) : 7/29/2010 3:10:26 PM GMT
Peter said...
as a graduated EE tech student and one who is back in college ( for Theatre arts of all things )
The Arduino was designed for artists that wanted to put electronics into their pieces and as such is designed to be easy to program and use (hence the use of sketch for program). Wiring was a precursor of the Arduino (not opensource I believe) and Processing is the language for turning data into visual images mainly used on the host computer not on the micro. The underlying philosophy of the two devices are different and the audience was originally different but has converged recently. As with all things use what is best for your project and what you are comfortable with.
In a fit of temporary insanity that I now realize just might be more permanent than I thought, I entered Grand Rapids Art Prize, an open competition of over 2000 artists, with venues all over a 4 square mile section of Grand Rapids, MI. $250,000 first prize! I really lucked out-- landed the best venue out there with all the room I need.
In short, I'm making a four-part modular (for ease of expanding and including others someday) Rolling Ball Sculpture. Closest example to my style on YouTube is one called "Sorcerer", although I far more prefer to work in wood, not metal. Unlike mechanical-only bastions like George Rhoads (he wrote the book on the stuff), I'm into "As high-tech as I need to be to get the nutty idea to work and look right".
I have five basic Stamp 2s. One's the homework board I share with my science Olympiad kids (they got 4th at States after breaking ties (mandatory) in a nine-way tie with perfect scores). Another's a PC board from the Evil Genius book, and the rest are BS2s I ordered elsewhere (in order to meet their high minimum order requirements for a really cheap part I stupidly forgot to put in my last order with them).
Everybody says, "Why don't you use an Arduino?" Answer is real simple:
1) No time for the learning curve. Why is "void" written all over Arduino programs? And their unnecessary all-new vocabulary?
2) There's a huge difference between issuing refunds at every turn and getting actual support. Parallax does the latter. My commenting about what I thought was a new-old-stock book resulted in a special price being honored, without any expectation from me.
3) Biggie: We're >>NOT<< black-turtleneck-sweater artists here! Every question I've ever asked here the past six years has been answered quickly, clearly, correctly, and AT THE SAME LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY NEEDED.
Jerry
PS: www.artprize.org , artist search "Elya". Nothing real on linked website of mine yet, though, Give me two weeks.
I think the extra unneeded jargon is a valid criticism. I'm a software engineer and I know how fabricating linker command lines can be a dark art (makefiles doubly so). But their IDE is pretty easy to use and hides all the issues. Do not fear the void keyword as C is a robust language.
Some Freeduinos are so cheap it's probably worth picking one up for grins and giggles. The Arduino website has all the information you need to build one yourself as well which could be a fun project in itself.
My list of MCUs I have used are BS2 , PIC ( in C)* college class* , 8085 (ASM!)* also a college class* , PicAx..
I am currently looking in to learning the prop this fall/winter.
I find is funny how My second love in life is theatre costumes ( art) . I have a BS2 In a costume right now . ( CATS the musical )
Its Used as a delayed digital input switch with a VERY basic DSP-like scaleing factor .
Peter KG6LSE.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"Carpe Ducktum" "seize the tape!!" peterthethinker.com/tesla/Venom/Venom.html
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S.
LOL
Post Edited (Peter KG6LSE) : 7/30/2010 3:44:09 PM GMT
It does seem that all of us do have a wide collection of uCs, not just Parallax products.
Maybe, just maybe Parallax should trademark a product called a "Nerd-duino" and offer it for 'non-artist'.
My problem is that Arduino people talk so differently, and claim to be artists. For many years in Eugene, Oregon we had a club of 'local artists', called PAL because it was felt no artist could ever possibly become successful without belonging to some sort of 'phony art league' and so the Phony Art League and its hallowed meeting hall, The First Church of Godzilla were founded. A lot of beer got drunk and we hosted a Labor Day blast of 600-700 people, but not much art got produced.
And of course everybody wanted to be an artist (though there was a women's auxiliary - called the Palettes).
These days I represent the Taiwan chapter of PAL. Could it just be that the desire to be an artist is Arduino's secret to success?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
Loopy Byteloose said...
My problem is that Arduino people talk so differently...
Don't take this wrong, but coming from a retired English teacher living in Taiwan, this is the lamest excuse yet for not using an Arduino.
I know that you've been here a long time, and are a fan of Parallax & it's products, but the Arduino is what it is. There's no reason that you can't use and enjoy both an Arduino and a Parallax product. If you feel that there is some disloyalty to Parallax for doing so, then I suggest taking a step back to get some perspective.
Ken mentioned earlier in this thread that the Arduino was more competition to the BS2 than Propeller. I think that's true. In fact, I think the Arduino eats the BS2's lunch. The Arduino outperforms the BS2 series on just about every metric that I can think of.
In the long term, Parallax needs to adapt to the changing market and offer products that are competitive with what's out there. If they don't, they'll lose market share. It's just simple business economics.
I'm not sure how Parallax could compete head-to-head with the Arduino. My wife is a sculptor and has taken some classes at the Univ. of Minnesota in interactive art using an Arduino. The instructor trained at MIT with the Arduino and that's what she uses and teaches. I'm sure that scenario is repeated over and over again at academic art departments world-wide. It's not a bad platform. It's cheap, reliable, and flexible enough for the types of applications it's commonly used for. Having helped with some of the projects, I can tell you that the Propeller in Spin would have been easier to use and much more flexible for any kind of expansion of the projects. It would have been as easy to debug, maybe easier. It's not like I don't know C or C++. I've used most every programming language under the sun at one time or another and I've used all sorts of hardware.
Martin_H's Arduino-shield compatible Prop board will help, maybe along with Hanno's 12Blocks ... I don't know. Even if there were a complete software suite that was Arduino compatible, people would have no particular reason to shift for the majority of projects currently being done with the Arduino.
Just for the record, "Martin Hodge" (me) and "Martin_H" are two different people.
I doubt the Prop-ASC can compete with the Arduino, nor was it intended to. It will be more expensive and not (initially) compatible with the software. I designed it so that I could plug in shields and play with them using Spin. Some of the shields are stackable, too. (I think when an Arduino shield is plugged into a Prop it could be called a "sword" hah!)
@Leon: Applications for which a Dodge Neon is typically used simply don't need much more expensive turbos, NOS and cat-back systems. That doesn't stop people from adding them and enjoying the heck out of them. Let your right brain go a little, ay? [noparse];)[/noparse]
I can vouch for Martin Hodge's claim that we're not the same person. Coincidence is a strange thing as we joined the forum a month apart, both have 188 posts, and the same initials.
Martin Hodge, I haven't been reading the Propeller forum so I hadn't seen your Prop-ASC board. It's pretty neat and adding the ADC for analog inputs was a nice touch.
It is hard for me to be interested in the Arduino platform when the MSP430 is $4.30, some of the processors from Microchip are only a couple of dollars and I've already invested in the Propeller.
The arduino doesn't really have any video capabilities without add on hardware. It would be great if they had an actual representative for their board but they don't.
The Arduino is open source and so, as LINUX, does not have an "owner" other than it's originators arduino.cc. As to your comment on video, the stamp and the msp do not have video without added hardware either. Neither does the prop but it is easier with the prop. You need to not disparage other peoples hardware just because you don't like it. Hardware is the means to an end and you should always use what works best for you.
Chuckz said...
The arduino doesn't really have any video capabilities without add on hardware. It would be great if they had an actual representative for their board but they don't.
Are you sure about that? Here is a demo project built around an ATmega88, which is essentially the same processor in the Arduino, with even less memory: www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft.
I think that, generally speaking, the Arduino opponents here would get a lot more street cred if they would simply be honest and admit that they don't like the Arduino because they're loyal to Parallax.
Chuckz said...
The arduino doesn't really have any video capabilities without add on hardware. It would be great if they had an actual representative for their board but they don't.
Are you sure about that? Here is a demo project built around an ATmega88, which is essentially the same processor in the Arduino, with even less memory: www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft.
I think that, generally speaking, the Arduino opponents here would get a lot more street cred if they would simply be honest and admit that they don't like the Arduino because they're loyal to Parallax.
Kevin,
That·man is an exception (and genius) and he added a resonator or crystal which the majority of the Arduino sites do not sell and which I haven't seen on the Arduino sites.
Why should I be loyal to buying a $29.95 Arduino when I can buy a $4.30 TI MSP430?
Admittedly, I have been very pro-Parallax is this thread. And admittedly again, my postings may be too forceful on this topic. I'll stop.
My being an English language teacher was brought into play. One can teach language as a means to organize thought and communicate; or one can spend vast amounts of time abstractly talking around the subject by presenting linguistics, semantics, grammar, phonology, morphology, syntax, pragmatics and so on.
I'd rather that we simply get down to organization and communication of the task at hand. Though there are a lot of the others that think differently and feel that one must know all that other stuff in great detail to be an 'expert'.
It seems to me that Arduino chooses to abstract their presentation more than is really necessary. Why that is so? I have no idea. But is seems like a marketing gimmick to me. And currently a successful one.
When one invents a new role as an 'artist', it brings a very odd element into the mix - attention getting. I'd rather just be a learner, nothing so pompous as a 'engineer', 'craftsman', or 'artisan'.
And so, I suspect my competence at English teaching has far less to do with Arduino, than a particular platform's desire to control how and to whom one communicates creatively with.
In general Parallax will survive competition just fine as they really are trying to outdo themselves, not others.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 8/1/2010 3:03:35 PM GMT
@Kevin Wood, thanks for that link. That brings back memories of assembler programming in the 80's and hooking the vertical and horizontal blank interrupts. All of your actual program was done around the margins. The 1-2 MHz 6502 and Z80 based machines were quite capable and today's microcontrollers are generally better. So it makes sense they could generate video and sound from an 8-bit CPU.
I agree with Kevin Wood. The Arduino's direct competitor is the Basic stamp. The propeller is a complete wild card. It is truly unique and can eat the Arduino's lunch any day of the week.
I guess my advice for everyone is to not worry about it.· What will be will be.
The way to compete is to build your project with a propeller, show it off to everyone and have tons of fun.· Unless you build semiconductors, the real competition is done at companies like Parallax.
I would like to build a 16 bit 65C816 (6502 based) computer and I want to put a video chip in it which could include Prop II if I can.
What? name one application where the Arduino could do it faster/ better. It is psychically impossible. The Propeller has 8 cores and the Arduino only has one. Leon is right though. The Arduino is better than the Basic Stamp in almost every way.
Ravenkallen said...
What? name one application where the Arduino could do it faster/ better.
There are Arduino boards available off the shelf that have in 128k of flash in them. Any large program, particularly one that uses lots of static data or tables is going to eat the props lunch in that application.
Ravenkallen said...
It is psychically impossible.
Lucky I don't believe in psychics then [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The Prop is a great chip. It's fantastic at what it does and can be made to do. It's not the right tool for every job.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"
Comments
But I imagine I will never figure out what they are talking about
I don't mean to be anti-social. Parallax Forum is very much about welcoming all and everyone. It is a oasis where one can get a real answer in a desert of deadend search listings. But the Arduino is particularly peculiar. The power and excellence of the underlying AVR micro-controller and the IDE seem to overcome all that to get results.
Which is really better for education?
I fear the Arduino approach is somewhat like the 'new math'. It is supposed to make it all easier for the novice, but one tends to stay a novice. After all, wiring to me is what I do with a soldering iron. Processing is generally a perpetual main loop. Both wiring and processing are rather noble terms that I am not exactly sure of in the Arduino context.
Admittedly, Spin seems to be a little jargon-like, but it is based on utility, not marketing.
One of the more interesting controversies is that PBasic is too primitive as it only uses integer maths. Many of the BasicStamp clones have done a lot of Parallax bashing on that one point.
But the reality is that integer math is what micro-controllers want, and often not even signed integer. Floating point programing is for mainframes in banks with mortgage calculations, Excel spreadsheets, and 10 key calculators. Sure, you can do it on a small micro-controller, but with a huge waste of resources if it isn't needed. By not having it available in PBasic, the beginner moves more directly into the nature of micro-controllers - not far and away into exotic IDEs and huge programs. Eventually, the PBasic approach opens the mind to understanding assembly language in a very intuitive manner.
Parallax seems to follow the famous architect, Mie Van der Roe - 'More is less and less is more'.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 7/28/2010 5:28:03 PM GMT
Different audience, different approach.
Geeks just don't get it that not everyone who uses microcontrollers wants to do assembly language, write their own C compiler or build a OS for fun like those in the Prop forum do.
Heck they ought to be celebrating that Ardunino has managed to attract them where others have failed instead of knocking them and their model. It works and works well. And they are already working at creating ARM and AVR32 shields.
Why ? becasue the Linker the downloader the editor and all that jazz was seprit programs and was a Royal PAIN to use .
where as the pBasic stuff is in one program .
we wwaisted SO much class time just trying to load a Hello world to out PIC ..
I would rather spend my time programming the chip and learning and not playing computer repair tech for a hour .
*********************
and this is MY personal Opinion but I have not found any Mid price range GOOD IDEs for PICs ..
there is the free stuff that from what WE found in class was Super buggy and cranky . and there is the $2000
"lets go in to production to make 1,000,000 PIC based TV remots" version for company's.
******************
and then there is the whole MAC PC LINUX issue
I LOVE the BS2 SW for teh mac I know its not from parallax BUT it works so well.
for the education market you will run in to more then just PCs with XP . there are MACs and LinuxBoxes too.
and for the BS2 I can get a GOOD WORKING Editor for all 3 with out doing curcus tricks .
Oh shure I could recompile a TarBall to run on my red hat system . but If I could do that I would be In programming as a major hehe.
the lack of consistent RPM/DEB and a universal OSX and a Win 2K and above compatable Software is what turns me off to all the other brands out there ..
Mind I have not Used a Prop yet so I cant compare it .
but as a graduated EE tech student and one who is back in college ( for Theatre arts of all things
Just this week we had a tech camp here at IHCC .. they all used the BS2 HW board .
and from what I heard
Very Few of the HS kids needed ANY kind of help with Downloading to the HomeWork Board.
they used Gosubs and each student wrote about 50Lines of code ..
Peter KG6LSE
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"Carpe Ducktum" "seize the tape!!"
peterthethinker.com/tesla/Venom/Venom.html
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S.
LOL
Post Edited (Peter KG6LSE) : 7/29/2010 3:10:26 PM GMT
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- Stephen
But why not get one, or one of the various clones, and form your own opinions on the platform through your own experience?
In short, I'm making a four-part modular (for ease of expanding and including others someday) Rolling Ball Sculpture. Closest example to my style on YouTube is one called "Sorcerer", although I far more prefer to work in wood, not metal. Unlike mechanical-only bastions like George Rhoads (he wrote the book on the stuff), I'm into "As high-tech as I need to be to get the nutty idea to work and look right".
I have five basic Stamp 2s. One's the homework board I share with my science Olympiad kids (they got 4th at States after breaking ties (mandatory) in a nine-way tie with perfect scores). Another's a PC board from the Evil Genius book, and the rest are BS2s I ordered elsewhere (in order to meet their high minimum order requirements for a really cheap part I stupidly forgot to put in my last order with them).
Everybody says, "Why don't you use an Arduino?" Answer is real simple:
1) No time for the learning curve. Why is "void" written all over Arduino programs? And their unnecessary all-new vocabulary?
2) There's a huge difference between issuing refunds at every turn and getting actual support. Parallax does the latter. My commenting about what I thought was a new-old-stock book resulted in a special price being honored, without any expectation from me.
3) Biggie: We're >>NOT<< black-turtleneck-sweater artists here! Every question I've ever asked here the past six years has been answered quickly, clearly, correctly, and AT THE SAME LEVEL OF COMPLEXITY NEEDED.
Jerry
PS: www.artprize.org , artist search "Elya". Nothing real on linked website of mine yet, though, Give me two weeks.
Some Freeduinos are so cheap it's probably worth picking one up for grins and giggles. The Arduino website has all the information you need to build one yourself as well which could be a fun project in itself.
My list of MCUs I have used are BS2 , PIC ( in C)* college class* , 8085 (ASM!)* also a college class* , PicAx..
I am currently looking in to learning the prop this fall/winter.
I find is funny how My second love in life is theatre costumes ( art) . I have a BS2 In a costume right now . ( CATS the musical )
Its Used as a delayed digital input switch with a VERY basic DSP-like scaleing factor .
Peter KG6LSE.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"Carpe Ducktum" "seize the tape!!"
peterthethinker.com/tesla/Venom/Venom.html
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S.
LOL
Post Edited (Peter KG6LSE) : 7/30/2010 3:44:09 PM GMT
I find it very interesting that you like uC's and something
as wildly different as theatre costumes
Have you seen the LillyPad?
It's an AVR platform meant to be sewn into clothing.
www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8465
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
justasm.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (HollyMinkowski) : 7/30/2010 8:02:40 PM GMT
Maybe, just maybe Parallax should trademark a product called a "Nerd-duino" and offer it for 'non-artist'.
My problem is that Arduino people talk so differently, and claim to be artists. For many years in Eugene, Oregon we had a club of 'local artists', called PAL because it was felt no artist could ever possibly become successful without belonging to some sort of 'phony art league' and so the Phony Art League and its hallowed meeting hall, The First Church of Godzilla were founded. A lot of beer got drunk and we hosted a Labor Day blast of 600-700 people, but not much art got produced.
And of course everybody wanted to be an artist (though there was a women's auxiliary - called the Palettes).
These days I represent the Taiwan chapter of PAL. Could it just be that the desire to be an artist is Arduino's secret to success?
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=projects
They look like typical embedded applications.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Post Edited (Leon) : 7/31/2010 7:21:47 PM GMT
Don't take this wrong, but coming from a retired English teacher living in Taiwan, this is the lamest excuse yet for not using an Arduino.
I know that you've been here a long time, and are a fan of Parallax & it's products, but the Arduino is what it is. There's no reason that you can't use and enjoy both an Arduino and a Parallax product. If you feel that there is some disloyalty to Parallax for doing so, then I suggest taking a step back to get some perspective.
Ken mentioned earlier in this thread that the Arduino was more competition to the BS2 than Propeller. I think that's true. In fact, I think the Arduino eats the BS2's lunch. The Arduino outperforms the BS2 series on just about every metric that I can think of.
In the long term, Parallax needs to adapt to the changing market and offer products that are competitive with what's out there. If they don't, they'll lose market share. It's just simple business economics.
Martin_H's Arduino-shield compatible Prop board will help, maybe along with Hanno's 12Blocks ... I don't know. Even if there were a complete software suite that was Arduino compatible, people would have no particular reason to shift for the majority of projects currently being done with the Arduino.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
I doubt the Prop-ASC can compete with the Arduino, nor was it intended to. It will be more expensive and not (initially) compatible with the software. I designed it so that I could plug in shields and play with them using Spin. Some of the shields are stackable, too. (I think when an Arduino shield is plugged into a Prop it could be called a "sword" hah!)
@Leon: Applications for which a Dodge Neon is typically used simply don't need much more expensive turbos, NOS and cat-back systems. That doesn't stop people from adding them and enjoying the heck out of them. Let your right brain go a little, ay? [noparse];)[/noparse]
Martin Hodge, I haven't been reading the Propeller forum so I hadn't seen your Prop-ASC board. It's pretty neat and adding the ADC for analog inputs was a nice touch.
The arduino doesn't really have any video capabilities without add on hardware. It would be great if they had an actual representative for their board but they don't.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- Stephen
Are you sure about that? Here is a demo project built around an ATmega88, which is essentially the same processor in the Arduino, with even less memory: www.linusakesson.net/scene/craft.
I think that, generally speaking, the Arduino opponents here would get a lot more street cred if they would simply be honest and admit that they don't like the Arduino because they're loyal to Parallax.
That·man is an exception (and genius) and he added a resonator or crystal which the majority of the Arduino sites do not sell and which I haven't seen on the Arduino sites.
Why should I be loyal to buying a $29.95 Arduino when I can buy a $4.30 TI MSP430?
Chuck
My being an English language teacher was brought into play. One can teach language as a means to organize thought and communicate; or one can spend vast amounts of time abstractly talking around the subject by presenting linguistics, semantics, grammar, phonology, morphology, syntax, pragmatics and so on.
I'd rather that we simply get down to organization and communication of the task at hand. Though there are a lot of the others that think differently and feel that one must know all that other stuff in great detail to be an 'expert'.
It seems to me that Arduino chooses to abstract their presentation more than is really necessary. Why that is so? I have no idea. But is seems like a marketing gimmick to me. And currently a successful one.
When one invents a new role as an 'artist', it brings a very odd element into the mix - attention getting. I'd rather just be a learner, nothing so pompous as a 'engineer', 'craftsman', or 'artisan'.
And so, I suspect my competence at English teaching has far less to do with Arduino, than a particular platform's desire to control how and to whom one communicates creatively with.
In general Parallax will survive competition just fine as they really are trying to outdo themselves, not others.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
Post Edited (Loopy Byteloose) : 8/1/2010 3:03:35 PM GMT
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
I think it's more like some days of the week.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Leon Heller
Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
- Stephen
The way to compete is to build your project with a propeller, show it off to everyone and have tons of fun.· Unless you build semiconductors, the real competition is done at companies like Parallax.
I would like to build a 16 bit 65C816 (6502 based) computer and I want to put a video chip in it which could include Prop II if I can.
·
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Propeller + Picaxe = Romeo & Juliet
There are Arduino boards available off the shelf that have in 128k of flash in them. Any large program, particularly one that uses lots of static data or tables is going to eat the props lunch in that application.
Lucky I don't believe in psychics then [noparse]:)[/noparse]
The Prop is a great chip. It's fantastic at what it does and can be made to do. It's not the right tool for every job.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away!"