Ugh! Bean turned me on to the SX a few years ago and it has met my industry needs well. I have also just learned how to program it (with SX/B). I don't need anything more advanced, and I don't really want to learn an assemble language. Can anyone recommend a best fit replacement? e.g. other than bs2
It depends on what your needs are. The Propeller is one possible replacement. With Bean's PropBasic as a Propeller equivalent for SX/B, this becomes even more attractive. Other possibilities include some of the PICs and some of the AVRs. As mentioned before, there's not really a general replacement for the SX. That's what was so appealing about it.
Thanks Mike. At the risk of really showing my ignorance here, it seems that the SX includes EEPROM and a basic internal oscillator as internal features, whereas these must be added additionally with a PIC chip. Is this correct? I don't need the speed that the SX can provide, but I sure like the simplicity and "all in one" packaging.
No, there is no EEPROM resident on an SX; only "flash" memory for holding program instructions and/or data that has been written with an external programmer such as the SX-Key. Program instructions and data can *not* be changed at runtime -- they may only be read/executed.
The internal 4mhz oscillator does not require any external components, but it is not that accurate, either, and will vary with temperature. But for many purposes where speed and tight timing are not issues, it's great.
The bare minimum need to run an SX -- using the internal RC oscillator -- is a 10k resistor between /MCLR (reset) and Vdd, and of course Vss and Vdd to the power pins.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
Mr Diesel Dude said...
Thanks Mike. At the risk of really showing my ignorance here, it seems that the SX includes EEPROM and a basic internal oscillator as internal features, whereas these must be added additionally with a PIC chip. Is this correct? I don't need the speed that the SX can provide, but I sure like the simplicity and "all in one" packaging.
Hate to mention a competing product, but the Picaxe is also a simple "all in one" package. The oder ones do not have quite the "oomph" of an SX, but some of the newer ones come closer. A wide range of models, from 8 pin to 40 pin, have ADC built in (no R/C Time necessary), some other nice features - based on PICS with a bootloader and interpreter preloaded.
It is aimed at the education market, and has a pretty simple BASIC interface. You only need a serial cable to program it (and 3 resistors). Very simplified usage. Most have an internal oscillator, some allow an external instead for higher speed or more accuracy. I have found them to be at least as useful as my BS.
For myself, totally bummed about the SX EOL. I had it in reserve fplanning for some future projects that the Picaxe could not handle. Luckily, by the time I need it, the newer model Picaxes may be able to (some are able to run at up to 64mHz now). It is tat or jump to the Propellor and a whole new learning curve.
As far as I know, Parallax has set aside Stamp SXes for their requirements apart from the number of SXes left "for sale" on their website and through distributors.
An emulator is available for the SX -- SXSim. It's quite good. It's the third entry on the page under "Software" on this page:
Zoot is correct. I have a 15-year supply of SX chips for our own use, and still stock a significant number for our customers.
If time permits I'll post a more detailed update pretty soon about the for-sale SX inventory. I could provide quantities and expected supply based on recent usage.
In short, I think we're still in good shape. No products or customers have been denied what they needed and we gave them as much notice as possible.
The implosion of SX interest as seen in the number of posts on the forum and other measures is really amazing. I know about the EOL announcement, but there are still very significant quantities of chips for purchase and unless you are looking at a 20 year or a huge production volume design, keep using them and do not be too afraid of EOL.
I think that some of the loss of interest has to do with SX/B 2.0 being abandoned. While Bean is apparently still fixing bugs reported here, the manual was never finished and the code never made it out of beta test. Version 1.51.03 is still the latest code on the Parallax site.
I completely agree that the implosion has been startling. But it really hasn't affect my interest in it. It's still my favorite microcontroller on planet Earth. I still use the SX all the time. It's still the fastest and most flexible way to do almost anything. Perhaps the day will come when I will be the only person left on Earth still writing code for it.
My present employer is completely in the ARM camp. There's not a prayer I could pursuade him to use a discontinued chip that costs twice as much.
I still hold out a faint hope that some Chinese manufacturer will steal the design and start manufacturing blackmarket SX chips.
As for Microchip coming out with something just as good - it'll never happen. It's much more than just a matter of MIPS. If MIPS were all that mattered, I'd just grab my 100 MHz LPC1768 CORTEX M3 every time I needed another high speed task done.
Okay, I take the last sentence back. If I want to do 32-bit modulus division (which I actually do all day long in my crazy cryptography pursuits) the LPC1768 is pretty stinking ideal.
But I'd rather make a bit-banging I2C slave with an SX than use the I2C hardware support in the LPC1768. And that goes for 100kHz, 400kHz, and 3.4 MHz.
I agree. I've got about 15 SX dips and a few protoboards of various kinds. I just bought 10 more SX28 protoboards at 5 bucks each (but forgot the resonators -oops - will have to wait for free shipping weekend)
Patents have a limited life. What is to stop a Chinese fab from cranking out SX chips in a few years? Meanwhile, how complicated can the SX be in modern VLSI terms? Seems like it would be relatively simple to create a 1.8 or 3.3 V workalike in 120 nm lithography that would be TINY and CHEAP!
I keep hoping that someone somewhere is working on just such a critter.
I suppose if it was simply a patent expiration issue, a copy might be forthcoming. But Microchip seems to feel the SX unfairly copied some of its products and then added greater speed and a different programming port.
And part of the cloning difficulty may just be that the machinery to do so isn't available in such places as China. Taiwan certainly has been reluctant to give them equipment to manufacture leading edge chips (but sells them their older machines).
And of course, it may just not have ever been cost effective to produce these DIP products. Senix seemed to depend on Parallax to move the chips in volume.
I have a tube of 25 SX18s, another tube of SX28s, a dozen or so protoboards, and feel very committed to the SX regardless of what happens here.
I look forward to the day when the Propeller manages one clock per instruction like the SXes, but it is indeed quite a wonderful little bit banger, Swiss Army knife kind of chip.
Hurt feelings don't carry much weight, legally. Seems like it would either be a patent or copyright matter.
I mention 120 nm only because it's not leading edge. China is certain to have that capability. In 2010 terms, the SX should be an absolute piece of cake to copy.
Spend a moment looking at the Parallax website. This stuff is fun, leading edge and simple. It’s easy to program and powerful. It is often first in the marketplace.
Now look at the SX. Yes we love it but for just a moment, look at it honestly and think Parallax.
They can devote more and more resources to SX, which has issues, is difficult to source and may have patent and copyright problems. There are many other SX type chips out there. You can even buy Basic software guaranteed to look just like Parallax Stamp Basic but will program the 12, 16, 18, 24 and 33 series PICs. What is special or unique about the SX other than the Parallax support and software?
OR
Parallax can continue to do what they do best, that is bringing us great new products. Parallax’s human capital, which is all this support and software, are the limited resources Parallax uses to make their unique products. They can spend it on some amazing new product that could become a market leader.
Just these two choices... Battle on with the SX or divert resources to where we all get much more benefit.
Would you rather have them spend their valuable time on an “also ran” (and make it amazing) or continue to bring us the amazing new products that they do, and make them EVEN MORE AMAZING...
They can’t do them both...
It is sad for us, it is probably much sadder for Parallax, Jon, Bean, G
Hey guys
You can even buy Basic software guaranteed to look just like Parallax Stamp Basic but will program the 12, 16, 18, 24 and 33 series PICs. What is special or unique about the SX other than the Parallax support and software?
I would like to know too?, do I go to the the PIC's, and can I get the same speed?
Comments
The internal 4mhz oscillator does not require any external components, but it is not that accurate, either, and will vary with temperature. But for many purposes where speed and tight timing are not issues, it's great.
The bare minimum need to run an SX -- using the internal RC oscillator -- is a 10k resistor between /MCLR (reset) and Vdd, and of course Vss and Vdd to the power pins.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
1uffakind.com/robots/povBitMapBuilder.php
1uffakind.com/robots/resistorLadder.php
Hate to mention a competing product, but the Picaxe is also a simple "all in one" package. The oder ones do not have quite the "oomph" of an SX, but some of the newer ones come closer. A wide range of models, from 8 pin to 40 pin, have ADC built in (no R/C Time necessary), some other nice features - based on PICS with a bootloader and interpreter preloaded.
It is aimed at the education market, and has a pretty simple BASIC interface. You only need a serial cable to program it (and 3 resistors). Very simplified usage. Most have an internal oscillator, some allow an external instead for higher speed or more accuracy. I have found them to be at least as useful as my BS.
For myself, totally bummed about the SX EOL. I had it in reserve fplanning for some future projects that the Picaxe could not handle. Luckily, by the time I need it, the newer model Picaxes may be able to (some are able to run at up to 64mHz now). It is tat or jump to the Propellor and a whole new learning curve.
Cheers,
Wreno
I was researching the SX considering it for some projects around the house and came upon this
thread of EOL. A real shame but having just read the complete thread, I notice that most people
are really not geting the message streight. Parallax is not going to run out of SX's for years. They
have given all of you plenty of time and bought plenty of chips to support this comunity till it can
move over to other chips as needed. I think, as a hobbist I can learn plenty and do a lot of nice
projects long before SX's run out. As for the small business projects, you have the time to look
around and line up new tools.
Because electronics moves so fast (Moores Law) new stuff is constantly comming on the market.
You have Propeller to look at. Picaxe are expanding. Pics keep multiply like rabits. Since there is no
direct replacement, you need to do your homework to make your best move, which may actually
be to keep using SX's till you see what you need.
As the tech improves, and companies compete, more options will come up. But more importantly,
it becomes easier and less expensive to move to a new device. I bought a PIC programmer many
years ago for $60 and was elated at the good deal. I just bought a Picaxe for about $7 including
shipping and programed it 10 times the day I opened the envelope with the chip, on an old junk
PC with a serial port. Tech moves on. Deal with it.
I am trying to decide weather I should get the SX-KEY or the cheaper programer. I am on a tight
budget (early SS) and may not need the ICS that much. Simple needs, lots of time to debug.
It looks like the development SW does not have an emulator. Too bad, but there is always
the serial port with snipits of debug info.
Bottom line, relax and think ahead (oxcy moron?) and enjoy.
Gary
An emulator is available for the SX -- SXSim. It's quite good. It's the third entry on the page under "Software" on this page:
www.parallax.com/tabid/460/Default.aspx
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
create bitmap data tool: 1uffakind.com/robots/povBitMapBuilder.php
resistor ladder tool: 1uffakind.com/robots/resistorLadder.php
convert images to ascii art: 1uffakind.com/apptoys/convtoascii/
If time permits I'll post a more detailed update pretty soon about the for-sale SX inventory. I could provide quantities and expected supply based on recent usage.
In short, I think we're still in good shape. No products or customers have been denied what they needed and we gave them as much notice as possible.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Ken Gracey
Parallax Inc.
Follow me at http://twitter.com/ParallaxKen for some insider news.
-Katie
My present employer is completely in the ARM camp. There's not a prayer I could pursuade him to use a discontinued chip that costs twice as much.
I still hold out a faint hope that some Chinese manufacturer will steal the design and start manufacturing blackmarket SX chips.
As for Microchip coming out with something just as good - it'll never happen. It's much more than just a matter of MIPS. If MIPS were all that mattered, I'd just grab my 100 MHz LPC1768 CORTEX M3 every time I needed another high speed task done.
But I'd rather make a bit-banging I2C slave with an SX than use the I2C hardware support in the LPC1768. And that goes for 100kHz, 400kHz, and 3.4 MHz.
I keep hoping that someone somewhere is working on just such a critter.
For me, the SX is not over yet.
And part of the cloning difficulty may just be that the machinery to do so isn't available in such places as China. Taiwan certainly has been reluctant to give them equipment to manufacture leading edge chips (but sells them their older machines).
And of course, it may just not have ever been cost effective to produce these DIP products. Senix seemed to depend on Parallax to move the chips in volume.
I have a tube of 25 SX18s, another tube of SX28s, a dozen or so protoboards, and feel very committed to the SX regardless of what happens here.
I look forward to the day when the Propeller manages one clock per instruction like the SXes, but it is indeed quite a wonderful little bit banger, Swiss Army knife kind of chip.
I mention 120 nm only because it's not leading edge. China is certain to have that capability. In 2010 terms, the SX should be an absolute piece of cake to copy.
Package-wise, I'd be perfectly happy with SMD.
Spend a moment looking at the Parallax website. This stuff is fun, leading edge and simple. It’s easy to program and powerful. It is often first in the marketplace.
Now look at the SX. Yes we love it but for just a moment, look at it honestly and think Parallax.
They can devote more and more resources to SX, which has issues, is difficult to source and may have patent and copyright problems. There are many other SX type chips out there. You can even buy Basic software guaranteed to look just like Parallax Stamp Basic but will program the 12, 16, 18, 24 and 33 series PICs. What is special or unique about the SX other than the Parallax support and software?
OR
Parallax can continue to do what they do best, that is bringing us great new products. Parallax’s human capital, which is all this support and software, are the limited resources Parallax uses to make their unique products. They can spend it on some amazing new product that could become a market leader.
Just these two choices... Battle on with the SX or divert resources to where we all get much more benefit.
Would you rather have them spend their valuable time on an “also ran” (and make it amazing) or continue to bring us the amazing new products that they do, and make them EVEN MORE AMAZING...
They can’t do them both...
It is sad for us, it is probably much sadder for Parallax, Jon, Bean, G
I would like to know too?, do I go to the the PIC's, and can I get the same speed?
SXlee
Thanks, Ken Gracey