Yes, after a week or two I'll make this a sticky thread.
Chris I.,
850 gross die per wafer (gdpw) for SX48, and 1100 gdpw for SX20/28. This would be somewhere around 400K chips depending on the mix we choose to order. This is absolute peanuts from the standpoint of a major semiconductor supplier, but pretty big quantities in our company.
$WMc%,
Up to Bean and Jonny Mac -- they're our SX/B heros. If they show interest we'll certainly support them! We don't currently have resources inside to do this.
$WMc%,
You don't (load it in the Propeller compiler). It's a very early work-in-progress. I'm sure Bean will post something with directions when there's something complete and reliable to post.
I think the SX chip is important and I'll tell you why.
I dropped my keys at work and when I noticed it, the inside of my car remote was missing. The case was still attached to my keys but because the case was previously opened to change the battery, it was easy for the board inside it to come out.
What is inside is a board about half an inch by an inch. It has a 3 volt coin battery holder, four tact switches on one side and a chip probably no bigger than the SX and it may be an SX. There is one more chip or part that I can't identify.
The point is this, I was upset because I didn't want someone else to be walking around the parking lot at work looking for my car and when I found my remote, I was happy because it would cost probably $100 for a new remote but I'm paying for someone's knowledge.
What you learn is very useful and though you learn something that may be discontinued, the knowledge can be invaluable and these small parts can be very valuable in your next project.
The EOL announcement from Ubicom is very disturbing. The SX has certain features that nothing else can touch: 1) 75 MIPS speed, 2) ultrafast deterministic interrupts, and 3) very few pins.
If you need every clock cycle available, and the leanest assembly code you can write provides just enough throughput, where do you go when the SX disappears? Is there ANY possibility that a reduced-cog Propeller can be sped up and provided with more cog memory?
The question was asked months ago whether customers would like more memory or more cogs. It seems that the consensus was more cogs. I'd like to place a vote for more speed, even if it meant fewer cogs.
What about the possibility of a small and fast 8-bit Propeller? Is there any hope for that?
David,
You are not likely to see a reduced-cog Propeller. It would involve pretty much a redesign of the chip itself even though a lot of the elements would be functionally the same. You're talking about years and any attempt to do so would take away from Prop II development.
There is no way to increase the amount of cog memory beyond 512 longs. Some people have suggested using some kind of paging scheme, but that wouldn't work practically even though it sounds like a fix.
The Prop II will have the same number of cogs plus more speed and more memory.
The Prop I has 20 MIPS in each of 8 independent processors and deterministic instruction execution (except for some hub memory access ... cogs can be synchronized to each other and to the hub).
There's no need to get sick over this - I've already done it for all of you. I've worked with the SX supply situation for 13 years and I feel confident that I've investigated every option to continue the supply of that chip. The owner of the design has specific reasons for terminating wafer supply and we don't own the IP.
Prop 2 - more memory, more pins, code protect, A/D and some other treats like Mike pointed out.
And we're sorry about the EOL announcement. We're placing a final order next week for a lot of chips. These could last a while.
Has Parallax thought about offering a “Stimulus Package” to get the SX group moved over to the new platform? Something that would include the Professional Development Board, ViewPort, PropPlug and anything else we need to start using the Propeller?
Creative idea. Sure, we can do that! I don't think we'd name it the "SX Stimulus Package" however. Can you help me think of a better name? How about some of these ideas:
SX to Prop Conversion Package
Propeller Welcome Pack for SX Users
Eight Cogs is Better than One
PropPack Conversion Package for SXers
Propeller Welcome Pack for SX Users: This time we OWN the design!
Are your thoughts that we'd verify a prior SX purchase from Parallax, and based on that proof (from our own biz system, no proof of purchase required from the customer) allow a discounted purchase of special goodies?
Got an idea about the kind of hardware that would be most "welcoming" for an SXer? Maybe the PE Kit, Prop Starter Kit, or a combination of boards? If we're going to welcome the SXer we've got to roll out the red carpet - these customers have been with us for up to 13 years.
Let's do it. Need some input from the SX common folk! We can always splatter some marketing energy on this one, but we want to make the goo stick to the wall if we're gonna huck it!
Oi vey.... hasn't the government proved the "stimulus packages" are a waste of money that is better spent elsewhere? What's next, a "cash-for-clunkers" program where you get credit against your perfectly serviceable SX chip and Parallax destroys the chip so it can't be used by anyone else?
Frankly, I won't convert to Propeller. Why so? Both the SX and the Propeller are great chips on their own for the learner.
I still have a tube of 25 SX18s and 5 Propeller 40pin DIPs. But I haven't fully mastered either. There are years of creative knowledge in the examples.
Recently I am restudying the SX28 RTOS by Peter Van der Zee as it really is a goodie and nothing like what is done in the Propeller hardware.
But on other days, I am delving into Hydra game programing, which is a souped up Propeller.
I do realize that the SX may just not have the market or the right legal environment to continue. It is sad how often laywers bully Americans into so many nonsensible choices. But I am sure that Parallax will find another platform and venue to teach us more if the SXes are gone.
As I said above - there are other chips that Parallax can press into production if it chooses to do so. Some have CANbus build it and 8 ADC pins. Much of Parallax's magic is in the IDE, the documents, and support -- not the chip. If you are not a Geek, Parallax will help you become a Geek. Other sites just presume that their customers were born Geeks and understand it all.
You can offer to swap out the hardware, but in truth I am thinking I had better buy a second SXKey for safe keeping and maybe a couple of dozen SX28s in a DIP package.
Now if you were telling me the BOE Bot was going out of productions, I'd be shocked beyond belief. That is the heartbeat of Parallax.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
I'm waiting until Bean's PropBASIC is completed before I switch over to the Propeller. It will be nice to have an environment that is comfortable and not so foreign to me as in SX/B.
I'm working with Bean on that project and can tell you it's going to be a while. You might as well get a Propeller now and start learning what you can, anything that you know will be valuable. As SX/B doesn't relieve the programmer from understanding the underlying hardware, neither does PropBASIC.
I've been lurking around the Propeller forum for a while now, and spending time learning the assembly stuff.
@Loopy... thanks for the kudos on the SX RTOS. But guess what? I now have one almost ready to introduce for the Propeller.
Each (assembler) cog runs its own muti-tasking kernel, so multiple threads can operate "simultaneously" in each cog of the propeller, each independent of each other. On top of that, it should be a cinch for Bean to incorporate it into SX/B for the Propeller. This could finally eliminate that horrid "PAUSE" instruction I hated so much. Istead of Pause, the basic instruction simply releases itself to the kernel (scheduler), and the next task picks up where it left off. This will permit non-blocking communications as well as simultaneous TX and RX....... quite simple really.
I am guessing at this point that practically one might have up to 8 (in simple cases perhaps 16) tasks registered in one cog operating and timing independently. Could offer quite a light show if you multiplied that by six or seven cogs.....
Good things coming soon.
So, while I will still need to order a few thousand SXes for products I am now building, I expect any new stuff I do will be with the Prop, especially when the RTOS will be available.
At present my major complaint is the Prop's speed and the hokey "indirect addressing" scheme. That is a real lame approach, albeit the self modifying code is great. The rest is pretty good, and some of it phenomonal. I think you'll love it once you embrace it.
This is very good news, indeed, pjv. The idea of having tasks operate as threads, in its own cog, should make propBASIC, a power house of a compiler. I have been having the problem of running short of cogs, this would solve the problem, nicely. If bean is successful in incorporating your RTOS into propBASIC, I will have to give propBASIC another look.
Creative idea. Sure, we can do that! I don't think we'd name it the "SX Stimulus Package" however. Can you help me think of a better name? How about some of these ideas:
How many functions does the chip have?
3 Function Stimulus
A mutlifunction chip
A multifunction deal
A multifunction savings
It needs a little help from marketing and explanations but you can see where this goes.
I am very happy with the SX and sad to hear about the EOL. I have developed a product around it as a small business startup and it's a scary thought that eventually I will need to find an alternative. The SX is affordable and fast with plenty of I/O for most of the things I'd want to do. Parallax has been great so far and the support for the SX is why I will seriously consider the Propeller as a replacement. I am pretty sure from reading up on the Propeller that it'd do everything I need also, but not without a heafty increase in price and board space over the current SX I'm using. The EOL announcment means I'll have to put additional development time into learning a new processor and integrating it into my product, plus the added cost of retooling up for redesigned components. It is not going to be an easy switch!
At any rate, I am hopeful something good will come out of this and I appreciate the forward manner in which Parallax announced the EOL. It will give me some time to make adjustments and hopefully find a suitable alternative.
Out of stock temporarily. There are two "last big shipments" coming in. First, we have chips in the pipeline from long before we announce EOL. Those are arriving over the next few weeks. Once they are in stock you will see the inventory levels increase.
And the last big order (we will take delivery in Dec/Jan) is being placed today.
We're ordering as many SX wafers as we can afford to without using credit lines. This should result in some excess inventory for a while, but the future supply from Parallax is ultimately unknown. A single customer may attempt to buy everything we have in stock, or they could dribble out for a long time.
My thoughts and my opinion only and think what you will of me, In short it's time to just give into the PIC line up and be done with it. There is alot more information, support and projects that have been done.
Now that SX/B is in fact locked, I'm back to work (mixed in with other projects). The SX is going out of production, not going away. I see Delorian (cars) on the streets of Los Angeles all the time! [noparse];)[/noparse]
Comments
How many SX devices will you yield from 4-500 wafers?
Chris I.
Yes, after a week or two I'll make this a sticky thread.
Chris I.,
850 gross die per wafer (gdpw) for SX48, and 1100 gdpw for SX20/28. This would be somewhere around 400K chips depending on the mix we choose to order. This is absolute peanuts from the standpoint of a major semiconductor supplier, but pretty big quantities in our company.
$WMc%,
Up to Bean and Jonny Mac -- they're our SX/B heros. If they show interest we'll certainly support them! We don't currently have resources inside to do this.
Ken Gracey
Bean.
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Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
Yes it does...
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How do I load this in the Propeller compiler.? " http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=380174 "
I can't get it to print write, let alone Download it...
After that how do I use it.
I haven't used the Propeller software that much.
Object, Public,Private...???
I deal with so many protocols that I can't keep up with all of them.
Any help would be great!!!!!
________________$WMc%___________
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The Truth is out there············································ BoogerWoods, FL. USA
Post Edited ($WMc%) : 8/29/2009 3:29:28 AM GMT
You don't (load it in the Propeller compiler). It's a very early work-in-progress. I'm sure Bean will post something with directions when there's something complete and reliable to post.
I dropped my keys at work and when I noticed it, the inside of my car remote was missing. The case was still attached to my keys but because the case was previously opened to change the battery, it was easy for the board inside it to come out.
What is inside is a board about half an inch by an inch. It has a 3 volt coin battery holder, four tact switches on one side and a chip probably no bigger than the SX and it may be an SX. There is one more chip or part that I can't identify.
The point is this, I was upset because I didn't want someone else to be walking around the parking lot at work looking for my car and when I found my remote, I was happy because it would cost probably $100 for a new remote but I'm paying for someone's knowledge.
What you learn is very useful and though you learn something that may be discontinued, the knowledge can be invaluable and these small parts can be very valuable in your next project.
If you need every clock cycle available, and the leanest assembly code you can write provides just enough throughput, where do you go when the SX disappears? Is there ANY possibility that a reduced-cog Propeller can be sped up and provided with more cog memory?
The question was asked months ago whether customers would like more memory or more cogs. It seems that the consensus was more cogs. I'd like to place a vote for more speed, even if it meant fewer cogs.
What about the possibility of a small and fast 8-bit Propeller? Is there any hope for that?
Post Edited (K2) : 4/15/2010 1:20:11 AM GMT
You are not likely to see a reduced-cog Propeller. It would involve pretty much a redesign of the chip itself even though a lot of the elements would be functionally the same. You're talking about years and any attempt to do so would take away from Prop II development.
There is no way to increase the amount of cog memory beyond 512 longs. Some people have suggested using some kind of paging scheme, but that wouldn't work practically even though it sounds like a fix.
The Prop II will have the same number of cogs plus more speed and more memory.
The Prop I has 20 MIPS in each of 8 independent processors and deterministic instruction execution (except for some hub memory access ... cogs can be synchronized to each other and to the hub).
There's no need to get sick over this - I've already done it for all of you. I've worked with the SX supply situation for 13 years and I feel confident that I've investigated every option to continue the supply of that chip. The owner of the design has specific reasons for terminating wafer supply and we don't own the IP.
Prop 2 - more memory, more pins, code protect, A/D and some other treats like Mike pointed out.
And we're sorry about the EOL announcement. We're placing a final order next week for a lot of chips. These could last a while.
Sincerely,
Ken Gracey
Has Parallax thought about offering a “Stimulus Package” to get the SX group moved over to the new platform? Something that would include the Professional Development Board, ViewPort, PropPlug and anything else we need to start using the Propeller?
Thanks!
Dan
Creative idea. Sure, we can do that! I don't think we'd name it the "SX Stimulus Package" however. Can you help me think of a better name? How about some of these ideas:
SX to Prop Conversion Package
Propeller Welcome Pack for SX Users
Eight Cogs is Better than One
PropPack Conversion Package for SXers
Propeller Welcome Pack for SX Users: This time we OWN the design!
Are your thoughts that we'd verify a prior SX purchase from Parallax, and based on that proof (from our own biz system, no proof of purchase required from the customer) allow a discounted purchase of special goodies?
Got an idea about the kind of hardware that would be most "welcoming" for an SXer? Maybe the PE Kit, Prop Starter Kit, or a combination of boards? If we're going to welcome the SXer we've got to roll out the red carpet - these customers have been with us for up to 13 years.
Let's do it. Need some input from the SX common folk! We can always splatter some marketing energy on this one, but we want to make the goo stick to the wall if we're gonna huck it!
Ken Gracey
I still have a tube of 25 SX18s and 5 Propeller 40pin DIPs. But I haven't fully mastered either. There are years of creative knowledge in the examples.
Recently I am restudying the SX28 RTOS by Peter Van der Zee as it really is a goodie and nothing like what is done in the Propeller hardware.
But on other days, I am delving into Hydra game programing, which is a souped up Propeller.
I do realize that the SX may just not have the market or the right legal environment to continue. It is sad how often laywers bully Americans into so many nonsensible choices. But I am sure that Parallax will find another platform and venue to teach us more if the SXes are gone.
As I said above - there are other chips that Parallax can press into production if it chooses to do so. Some have CANbus build it and 8 ADC pins. Much of Parallax's magic is in the IDE, the documents, and support -- not the chip. If you are not a Geek, Parallax will help you become a Geek. Other sites just presume that their customers were born Geeks and understand it all.
You can offer to swap out the hardware, but in truth I am thinking I had better buy a second SXKey for safe keeping and maybe a couple of dozen SX28s in a DIP package.
Now if you were telling me the BOE Bot was going out of productions, I'd be shocked beyond belief. That is the heartbeat of Parallax.
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Ain't gadetry a wonderful thing?
aka G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse] 黃鶴 ] in Taiwan
I've been lurking around the Propeller forum for a while now, and spending time learning the assembly stuff.
@Loopy... thanks for the kudos on the SX RTOS. But guess what? I now have one almost ready to introduce for the Propeller.
Each (assembler) cog runs its own muti-tasking kernel, so multiple threads can operate "simultaneously" in each cog of the propeller, each independent of each other. On top of that, it should be a cinch for Bean to incorporate it into SX/B for the Propeller. This could finally eliminate that horrid "PAUSE" instruction I hated so much. Istead of Pause, the basic instruction simply releases itself to the kernel (scheduler), and the next task picks up where it left off. This will permit non-blocking communications as well as simultaneous TX and RX....... quite simple really.
I am guessing at this point that practically one might have up to 8 (in simple cases perhaps 16) tasks registered in one cog operating and timing independently. Could offer quite a light show if you multiplied that by six or seven cogs.....
Good things coming soon.
So, while I will still need to order a few thousand SXes for products I am now building, I expect any new stuff I do will be with the Prop, especially when the RTOS will be available.
At present my major complaint is the Prop's speed and the hokey "indirect addressing" scheme. That is a real lame approach, albeit the self modifying code is great. The rest is pretty good, and some of it phenomonal. I think you'll love it once you embrace it.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
Keep up the good work!
It's really one of the coolest & fastest micro's you can get for a couple of bucks.
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There's nothing like a new idea and a warm soldering iron.
3 Function Stimulus
A mutlifunction chip
A multifunction deal
A multifunction savings
It needs a little help from marketing and explanations but you can see where this goes.
At any rate, I am hopeful something good will come out of this and I appreciate the forward manner in which Parallax announced the EOL. It will give me some time to make adjustments and hopefully find a suitable alternative.
I just noticed that ALL of the SX chips are out-of-stock.
Is this the end....Or did you not receive that "last big shipment" yet ?
Bean.
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Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
Yes it does...
·
Out of stock temporarily. There are two "last big shipments" coming in. First, we have chips in the pipeline from long before we announce EOL. Those are arriving over the next few weeks. Once they are in stock you will see the inventory levels increase.
And the last big order (we will take delivery in Dec/Jan) is being placed today.
We're ordering as many SX wafers as we can afford to without using credit lines. This should result in some excess inventory for a while, but the future supply from Parallax is ultimately unknown. A single customer may attempt to buy everything we have in stock, or they could dribble out for a long time.
Thanks,
Ken Gracey
I'll keep checking back.
Bean.
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Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
Yes it does...
·
Let me know,
Dan
Thanks for the offer. I don't need any right now.
I do have some, but I wanted to get more (like ALOT more) before they are unavailable.
Bean.
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Does that byte of memory hold "A", 65, $41 or %01000001 ?
Yes it does...
·
I haven't had a chance to answer Ken's post about the SX to Propeller stimulus name. Hmmm....thinking...
Dan
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1. SX/B 2. Released as a finished product, released as is or dropped?
2. Jons SX/B book. Finished/not finished, released as a book or a downloadable pdf?
3. Simulator. Will Gunther finish his to do list or is it a dead fish.
Rick