humanoido,
You don't really have a list of languages. You have a list of implementations of languages. For example, there is only one FemtoBasic language and several implementations, one for each of several hardware configurations. The underlying interpreter is the same. Similarly, there is only one Meta2 language and two implementations, one stand-alone, and the other using Sphinx's I/O. The underlying compiler is the same.
Dr_Acula: You're right about it being all over the place!
If these links surface, feel free to post in this thread, thank you.
I viewed the one link given, and don't even know which version to download!
This could be a big project getting it to work. Nice printout - I see you have
yours working excellent! Great job on the software and wiring!
I'll keep at it!
Mike Green said...
You don't really have a list of languages. You have a list of implementations of languages.
For example, there is only one FemtoBasic language and several implementations, one for
each of several hardware configurations. The underlying interpreter is the same. Similarly,
there is only one Meta2 language and two implementations, one stand-alone, and the other
using Sphinx's I/O. The underlying compiler is the same.
Technically, could you call these various implementations with the same underlying interpreter,
different versions? ...So mainly this could be a list of various language versions?...
Yes, sorry about the lack of links. Either myself or others can fill them in. I always seem to lose Cluso's website and have to find it again from the thread. Just worked a 16 hour day and it is 1am here. Down the track I'll write this up as an Instructable in a step by step guide that anyone can follow. But for the moment, I just can't wait to jump to the next bit, which is speeding up the sd card access. Do you need the links? I'd hate to see a language left out on a technicality *grin*
After some late night coding, and with great excitement, can you pls add BDS C to your list?
This language is a bit unique in that the author (Leor Zolman) has given it away for free, and also actively posts on his discussion forum and is available for support.
Picture attached of it running in an IDE. This is similar to the Spin environment, where you write in a text box and then hit a button to compile and run. 9 seconds to compile and run that program on a real propeller.
Dr_A: That's fantastic, I love your IDE, shame I can't use it in Linux. Or perhaps it runs under Wine...
Only one problem, Humanoido has some rules for this game: "...collecting as many working languages as
possible for the Propeller Demo Board and/or HYDRA Board. The only criteria is they must be in working condition and runnable."
I guess that means he will only count something if he can down load a ready to run package that works on a platform he actually has. Fair enough.
So either we have more work to do getting ZiCog to run a Hydra, unlikely for me, or Humanoido please, please get a TriBlade[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Still BDS C compiled code will run under ZiCog on a Demo Board so it could be included if we could provide a package that just "works". That implies shipping a ready to go SIMH AltairZ80 simulator to run the compiler on with ZiCog. Not impossible.
Humaoido: I now have the goal of getting my 6809 emulator finished so it can run a PDP 8 emulator (written in 6809 assembler) which will then run FOCAL on the Prop.
Humanoido: If you were to download MoCog v0.6 from here:http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=811043 you would be able to run some Motorola 6809 Assembly language on your Prop Demo Board and add an other notch to your belt. The 6809 asm source, listing and binary files are included in the package.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Thank you very much for adding new working downloadable languages to the list.
There is no problem in adding languages to run on multiple prop platforms.
If the install is complicated, show instructions. All software to run the program
is required by download.
Languages can run on:
Parallax Propeller demo board
Parallax Hydra
Parallax Propeller Proto Board
Parallax Prop RPM Board
Parallax Propeller Professional Development Board
Parallax Prop Chip Minimum Circuit
Multiple Prop boards (with build schematics & details)
(suggest others)
Third party multiple propeller boards included
only if schematics are included or linked and
enough build information is provided.
33 Propeller Language Implementations
PARALLAX ASSEMBLER
PARALLAX SPIN
PROPASM
FEMTOBASIC
FEMTOBASIC COLOR
FEMTOBASIC PROPTERMINAL
FEMTOBASIC PROTOBOARD
BOEBOT BASIC
DONGLE BASIC
UOLED PROP BASIC
MITS ALTAIR 4K BASIC
TINY BASIC
ALTAIR MINOL TINY BASIC
PBASIC
C IMAGECRAFT ICCV7 45 DAYS
C CATALINA
C BDS COMPILER
TINY
TINY V1.2 CRENSHAW
LOGO
LISP
LISP BY ROSS
PASCAL
JAVA
SPHINX SPIN COMPILER
FORTH BIFFLE
FORTH
SPIN FORTH SALSANCI
THUMB
META2
META2 SPHINX
12BLOCKS (FORMERLY SPINNER)
MOCOG V0.60
Now adding demo languages. If they are free downloads with
some life span, they will be listed along with the operable time
duration.
Also possible for qualification are beta languages.
Tiny languages are desirable. They can be some subset of a larger
language or a complete standalone.
It would be helpful, if you're going to collect them in one location like that, to convert your list to a set of links where people can actually download the working compilers/interpreters.
Thanks for the suggestion Phil. I plan to collect all 50 languages
and then make them available for a special propeller platform
posted in the Project Forum for everyone. But first, I want to
collect all the bits and pieces to the languages over some time
as new supporting things tend to show up gradually. There is
also an opportunity to post the complete project at the Penguin
Robot web site. I want to open up a special Propeller page,
along with Penguin robot, Basic Stamps, Stamp supercomputers,
and other Parallax projects. For now, this thread can provide the links
because this is my primary source of information about languages.
There was a great CPM Lisp called Waltz Lisp. I wrote many programs with it in the '80s for an alarm company I worked for at the time. I still have the manual, but if I have any binaries they're on 8" floppies.
Another interesting language to port would be Whitespace compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace Although Whitespace is considered an imperative stack-based language, it would be fun to simulate.
You might consider adding an asterisk to those languages in the list that require emulating a different processor to compile, interpret, and/or execute.
That would be to say that many IBM Mainframes, and other mainframes, do not support any languages other than microcode, because in fact, even the assembler is emulated in microcode.
Basic was an interpreted language on the PC until about VB5 and now I understand VB.net is in fact an interpreted 'p-code' type again. However, this would always fit into humanoido's list.
I agree with Phil, that an asterist to identify emulating a different processor to run is quite reasonable. It is still a language under the definition.
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Clusso: Good point. But I'm not totally convinced.
What you're saying is that the Spin interpreter in the Propeller ROM is analogous to the micro-code in the ROMs (or RAM) of mainframes and other non-hardwired logic processors. In one case the microcode implements the mainframe assembly language in the other it implements the Prop assembly language which is Spin byte code.
BUT on main frames I believe it was possible to download different microcode to change the instruction set. At least that was doable on bit-slice technology processors in the 70s-80s.
So it is with the Propeller, just fill up a COG with ZiCog or MoCog or whatever and you have a different instruction set.
Apart from the fact that the Spin interpreter comes burned into an out of the box Propeller they are all logically on the same level. In fact all PASM programs are then just different microcodes executing some instruction set from HUB RAM.
As for compilers versus interpreters, that has long since been a gray area. C was compiled BASIC was interpreted. But then BASIC got byte codes and eventually compiled. Java had byte codes which now get compiled to native at run time. etc etc.
So I still maintain that Z80 opcodes are just as native to the Prop as Spin byte codes in a logical taxonomy, just that spin byte codes are supplied as default.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
humanoido: What are your criteria for accepting new languages? Have you actually, for example, done the compilations of each of all the languages that need compilation to convince your self that they work?
I think we can easily get to 50 if I start supplying demos and instructions for compilation of all the Z80 compiled languages.
Then we can add the GCC C compiler at some point as it can compile code for the 6809 which we have an emulator for.
One can count GCCs C as a different language as it has features not present in other C's. Perhaps then even FORTRAN.
Might take a little while....
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Heater:
The mainframe microcode was changed to do bugfixes. When the customer upgraded his machine to a faster processor, it was often just an engineer coming out to remove a few nops from the microcode Or removing a pcb to double the disk drive capacity, or cut a capacitor to speed up a printer
As for the languages, I think if a processor is being emulated, it should be flagged. That does not mean it is not a valid language, as it truly is, period. Spin is just another language, but it does not require a processor emulation.
If we ever emulate a PC with 16MB ram (even caching to SD) then I can add a mini-computer emulation with ICL System 25 Assembler.
BTW I believe Fortran is available on Z80/CPM.
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The Burroughs mainframes used to use different microcode for different languages, to optimise performance. The ICL PERQ mini had user-programmable microcode.
I once used Microsoft Fortran on a Z80 CP/M system.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
I'm sure there have been processors that could have a total personality transplant by downloading new micro-code. Can't conjure up an example just now. In 1979 I worked on 16 bit CPU's designed in house by Marconi Radar that used bit slice technolgy www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/AMD_2900_ED2900A.html. The Marconi guys had designed it and written the microcode to be compatible with TTL implementations of the Marconi Locus 16. They could "easily" have written some different instruction set.
At the end of the day we are quibbling about taxonomy. Logic is still logic if you do it in hardware or software. Languages are languages if they are compiled or interpreted, native or otherwise.
I'm not much bothered where the asterisks go.
If I ever get MoCog of the ground there is a PDP-8 emulator written for the 6809 then we can run Focal. Very slowly.....
An interpreted language running on an emulated PDP-8 on top of an emulated 6809.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I remember seeing the PERQ when it first came out, at a computer show. I lusted after one! It only had a mono display but I knew someone at a university who was trying to get a project off the ground using three of them for colour - one each for R, G and B!
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
heater said...
humanoido: What are your criteria for accepting new languages?
Acceptance Criteria for a New Language
1) Various language implementations qualify
2) Languages may run in RAM or EEPROM
3) If the install is complicated, provide instructions
4) All software to run the program is required by download links
....or posting attachments at the Parallax Forum (preferred)
5) Language may run on 3rd party prop boards if schematics
and build info is provided
6) Languages may run on single or multiple prop platforms
....Parallax Propeller demo board
....Parallax Hydra
....Parallax Propeller Proto Board
....Parallax Prop RPM Board
....Parallax Propeller Professional Development Board
....Parallax P8X32A-Q44 SchmartBoard
....Parallax Prop Chip Minimum Circuit
7) Accurately describe which board it runs on and any requirements
8) Demo languages with or without expiration dates will qualify
9) Beta languages qualify
10) Tiny languages qualify - can be a subset of a full language
11) Assembler variants will qualify (z80, 6502, etc.)
12) Receive credit by inventing a new Prop language
heater said...
Have you actually, for example, done the compilations
of each of all the languages that need compilation to convince your self
that they work?
When time becomes available, languages are loaded and tested, and
languages will be made available so everyone may do testing and provide
comments, guarantee the work, create small sample programs, examples, etc.
This is an open source project. Yes, someone must guarantee the language will
work on the Propeller chip. Although I am a keeper of all languages, I envision
a keeper of each individual language who may be able to reply to questions
about the install and getting things up and running on the Prop.
What is provided for each language? The goal is:
1) A folder is created for the language
2) The forum language post link is saved
3) The language information thread is saved
4) The language download link is saved
5) The language is downloaded and saved
6) Supporting instructions, sample programs, tutorials, tools, etc. are saved
heater said...
I think we can easily get to 50 if I start supplying demos and instructions for compilation of all the Z80 compiled languages.
This would be very exciting!
heater said...
Then we can add the GCC C compiler at some point as it can compile code for the 6809 which we have an emulator for. One can count GCCs C as a different language as it has features not present in other C's. Perhaps then even FORTRAN.
FORTRAN would be extremely exciting! GCCs C would be a tremendous addition too!
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 9/1/2009 11:33:04 AM GMT
Comments
You don't really have a list of languages. You have a list of implementations of languages. For example, there is only one FemtoBasic language and several implementations, one for each of several hardware configurations. The underlying interpreter is the same. Similarly, there is only one Meta2 language and two implementations, one stand-alone, and the other using Sphinx's I/O. The underlying compiler is the same.
If these links surface, feel free to post in this thread, thank you.
I viewed the one link given, and don't even know which version to download!
This could be a big project getting it to work. Nice printout - I see you have
yours working excellent! Great job on the software and wiring!
I'll keep at it!
www.bayfronttechnologies.com/mc_tutorial.html
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
different versions? ...So mainly this could be a list of various language versions?...
Thanks a lot for that Meta2 tutorial link. I've never seen it. The tutorial is very well done.
This language is a bit unique in that the author (Leor Zolman) has given it away for free, and also actively posts on his discussion forum and is available for support.
forum thread here with photos of it running on a zicog bdsoft.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk2&action=display&thread=69
The entire documentation here www.bdsoft.com/dist/bdsc-guide-full.pdf
Picture attached of it running in an IDE. This is similar to the Spin environment, where you write in a text box and then hit a button to compile and run. 9 seconds to compile and run that program on a real propeller.
Only one problem, Humanoido has some rules for this game: "...collecting as many working languages as
possible for the Propeller Demo Board and/or HYDRA Board. The only criteria is they must be in working condition and runnable."
I guess that means he will only count something if he can down load a ready to run package that works on a platform he actually has. Fair enough.
So either we have more work to do getting ZiCog to run a Hydra, unlikely for me, or Humanoido please, please get a TriBlade[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Still BDS C compiled code will run under ZiCog on a Demo Board so it could be included if we could provide a package that just "works". That implies shipping a ready to go SIMH AltairZ80 simulator to run the compiler on with ZiCog. Not impossible.
Humaoido: I now have the goal of getting my 6809 emulator finished so it can run a PDP 8 emulator (written in 6809 assembler) which will then run FOCAL on the Prop.
www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/focal/
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For me, the past is not over yet.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80), MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums (via Google)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Thank you very much for adding new working downloadable languages to the list.
There is no problem in adding languages to run on multiple prop platforms.
If the install is complicated, show instructions. All software to run the program
is required by download.
Languages can run on:
Parallax Propeller demo board
Parallax Hydra
Parallax Propeller Proto Board
Parallax Prop RPM Board
Parallax Propeller Professional Development Board
Parallax Prop Chip Minimum Circuit
Multiple Prop boards (with build schematics & details)
(suggest others)
Third party multiple propeller boards included
only if schematics are included or linked and
enough build information is provided.
33 Propeller Language Implementations
PARALLAX ASSEMBLER
PARALLAX SPIN
PROPASM
FEMTOBASIC
FEMTOBASIC COLOR
FEMTOBASIC PROPTERMINAL
FEMTOBASIC PROTOBOARD
BOEBOT BASIC
DONGLE BASIC
UOLED PROP BASIC
MITS ALTAIR 4K BASIC
TINY BASIC
ALTAIR MINOL TINY BASIC
PBASIC
C IMAGECRAFT ICCV7 45 DAYS
C CATALINA
C BDS COMPILER
TINY
TINY V1.2 CRENSHAW
LOGO
LISP
LISP BY ROSS
PASCAL
JAVA
SPHINX SPIN COMPILER
FORTH BIFFLE
FORTH
SPIN FORTH SALSANCI
THUMB
META2
META2 SPHINX
12BLOCKS (FORMERLY SPINNER)
MOCOG V0.60
Now adding demo languages. If they are free downloads with
some life span, they will be listed along with the operable time
duration.
Also possible for qualification are beta languages.
Tiny languages are desirable. They can be some subset of a larger
language or a complete standalone.
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humanoido
*Stamp SEED Supercomputer *Basic Stamp Supercomputer *TriCore Stamp Supercomputer
*Minuscule Stamp Supercomputer *Three Dimensional Computer *Penguin with 12 Brains
*Penguin Tech *StampOne News! *Penguin Robot Society
Post Edited (humanoido) : 8/28/2009 5:48:44 AM GMT
It would be helpful, if you're going to collect them in one location like that, to convert your list to a set of links where people can actually download the working compilers/interpreters.
Thanks,
-Phil
and then make them available for a special propeller platform
posted in the Project Forum for everyone. But first, I want to
collect all the bits and pieces to the languages over some time
as new supporting things tend to show up gradually. There is
also an opportunity to post the complete project at the Penguin
Robot web site. I want to open up a special Propeller page,
along with Penguin robot, Basic Stamps, Stamp supercomputers,
and other Parallax projects. For now, this thread can provide the links
because this is my primary source of information about languages.
humanoido
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Visit the: The Propeller Pages @ Warranty Void.
@humanoido - ·Hanno has changed the name of "Spinner" to "12Blocks"
Thanks for being the keeper of the list!
Jim
Another interesting language to port would be Whitespace compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace Although Whitespace is considered an imperative stack-based language, it would be fun to simulate.
..Steve
Thanks - the name change is now made to the most recent list posted on page 3.
w8an:
Hope we can get some takers to port and simulate these and other languages.
humanoido
and beta tests.
There are now 33 Propeller language implementations.
How can we get this up to 50?
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 8/28/2009 5:50:43 AM GMT
You might consider adding an asterisk to those languages in the list that require emulating a different processor to compile, interpret, and/or execute.
-Phil
As far as I know there are only two: PASM and now Bean's PropBasic.
That's right, I consider Spin byte code and LMM as different "virtual machines" than the Prop itself.
So BDS C under Z80 emulation is as "authentic" Propeller code as Spin in my mind.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
That would be to say that many IBM Mainframes, and other mainframes, do not support any languages other than microcode, because in fact, even the assembler is emulated in microcode.
Basic was an interpreted language on the PC until about VB5 and now I understand VB.net is in fact an interpreted 'p-code' type again. However, this would always fit into humanoido's list.
I agree with Phil, that an asterist to identify emulating a different processor to run is quite reasonable. It is still a language under the definition.
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
What you're saying is that the Spin interpreter in the Propeller ROM is analogous to the micro-code in the ROMs (or RAM) of mainframes and other non-hardwired logic processors. In one case the microcode implements the mainframe assembly language in the other it implements the Prop assembly language which is Spin byte code.
BUT on main frames I believe it was possible to download different microcode to change the instruction set. At least that was doable on bit-slice technology processors in the 70s-80s.
So it is with the Propeller, just fill up a COG with ZiCog or MoCog or whatever and you have a different instruction set.
Apart from the fact that the Spin interpreter comes burned into an out of the box Propeller they are all logically on the same level. In fact all PASM programs are then just different microcodes executing some instruction set from HUB RAM.
As for compilers versus interpreters, that has long since been a gray area. C was compiled BASIC was interpreted. But then BASIC got byte codes and eventually compiled. Java had byte codes which now get compiled to native at run time. etc etc.
So I still maintain that Z80 opcodes are just as native to the Prop as Spin byte codes in a logical taxonomy, just that spin byte codes are supplied as default.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
I think we can easily get to 50 if I start supplying demos and instructions for compilation of all the Z80 compiled languages.
Then we can add the GCC C compiler at some point as it can compile code for the 6809 which we have an emulator for.
One can count GCCs C as a different language as it has features not present in other C's. Perhaps then even FORTRAN.
Might take a little while....
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
For me, the past is not over yet.
The mainframe microcode was changed to do bugfixes. When the customer upgraded his machine to a faster processor, it was often just an engineer coming out to remove a few nops from the microcode
As for the languages, I think if a processor is being emulated, it should be flagged. That does not mean it is not a valid language, as it truly is, period. Spin is just another language, but it does not require a processor emulation.
If we ever emulate a PC with 16MB ram (even caching to SD) then I can add a mini-computer emulation with ICL System 25 Assembler.
BTW I believe Fortran is available on Z80/CPM.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
I once used Microsoft Fortran on a Z80 CP/M system.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
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Links to other interesting threads:
· Home of the MultiBladeProps: TriBladeProp, RamBlade, TwinBlade,·SixBlade, website
· Single Board Computer:·3 Propeller ICs·and a·TriBladeProp board (ZiCog Z80 Emulator)
· Prop Tools under Development or Completed (Index)
· Emulators: Micros eg Altair, and Terminals eg VT100 (Index) ZiCog (Z80) , MoCog (6809)
· Search the Propeller forums·(uses advanced Google search)
My cruising website is: ·www.bluemagic.biz·· MultiBladeProp is: www.bluemagic.biz/cluso.htm
At the end of the day we are quibbling about taxonomy. Logic is still logic if you do it in hardware or software. Languages are languages if they are compiled or interpreted, native or otherwise.
I'm not much bothered where the asterisks go.
If I ever get MoCog of the ground there is a PDP-8 emulator written for the 6809 then we can run Focal. Very slowly.....
An interpreted language running on an emulated PDP-8 on top of an emulated 6809.
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For me, the past is not over yet.
Leon
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Amateur radio callsign: G1HSM
Suzuki SV1000S motorcycle
1) Various language implementations qualify
2) Languages may run in RAM or EEPROM
3) If the install is complicated, provide instructions
4) All software to run the program is required by download links
....or posting attachments at the Parallax Forum (preferred)
5) Language may run on 3rd party prop boards if schematics
and build info is provided
6) Languages may run on single or multiple prop platforms
....Parallax Propeller demo board
....Parallax Hydra
....Parallax Propeller Proto Board
....Parallax Prop RPM Board
....Parallax Propeller Professional Development Board
....Parallax P8X32A-Q44 SchmartBoard
....Parallax Prop Chip Minimum Circuit
7) Accurately describe which board it runs on and any requirements
8) Demo languages with or without expiration dates will qualify
9) Beta languages qualify
10) Tiny languages qualify - can be a subset of a full language
11) Assembler variants will qualify (z80, 6502, etc.)
12) Receive credit by inventing a new Prop language
When time becomes available, languages are loaded and tested, and
languages will be made available so everyone may do testing and provide
comments, guarantee the work, create small sample programs, examples, etc.
This is an open source project. Yes, someone must guarantee the language will
work on the Propeller chip. Although I am a keeper of all languages, I envision
a keeper of each individual language who may be able to reply to questions
about the install and getting things up and running on the Prop.
What is provided for each language? The goal is:
1) A folder is created for the language
2) The forum language post link is saved
3) The language information thread is saved
4) The language download link is saved
5) The language is downloaded and saved
6) Supporting instructions, sample programs, tutorials, tools, etc. are saved
This would be very exciting!
FORTRAN would be extremely exciting! GCCs C would be a tremendous addition too!
humanoido
Post Edited (humanoido) : 9/1/2009 11:33:04 AM GMT