You need a resistor on each spare line but you do not need to mount them now. I suggested you put the pads there in case of future need. All of the lines in use by the prop
(P0 to P19) should have a pull down resistor except SRCLR, which should have a pull up resistor. That is so the lines will be in a safe (or least dangerous) state if the prop pins were disconnected or changed to inputs for any reason.
P26(reset) and P27(start/pause) should have pull up resistors so that a push button can be connected between the line and ground.
btw, how are you connecting the protoboard to the master board?
I would suggest using a hard disk cable and mounting headers with locking clips on the protoboard and master board.
0603 are pretty tiny here is a picture of a 0 ohm on top of a quarter. physically are quarters are the same size as yours so a good reference. Even though they are tiny they are not to difficult to work with as long as you have steady hands and a pair of tweezers.
That site sells kits in 1206 size also which is much bigger.
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Holy Smile for resistors on this thing.. GAWD!!!!!· PULL UP, PULL DOWN, SERIES, AAAHHHGGGGHHHHH!!! Everywhere I look for free space there seems to be a resistor.·
Anyway, I have 10 spare IO lines coming into the board now for start/pause, whatever else. Each of those has a selectable pull up/pull down resistor and a series resistor just before the pin header for that line.· Check me on this.· For each of the enable lines, I have 3 resistors on it.· A led resistor, a pull down resistor, and a series resistor.· Each driver has a .1uf cap between the power and ground.· For each·data line I have a series resistor and a pull down resistor except srclr,·that has the pull up resistor.· I only need one pull up or down resistor for each of the data lines correct, not one for each driver?·There are status lights for all signal lines going to the drivers with resistors between them and ground, except the Srclr, that goes to·3.3v· Since I have the series resistor, do I still need a led resistor since it is already being dropped.· I really hope you guys know what you're talking about and I'm not getting things mixed up with where lines go. I thought I had put pull down resistors on the lines already and looked and they were missing so I had to find a way to route all of that stuff.
My etching tank is just about done, but·I'm going to try some experiments to see if I can get my traces to transfer a little better before I start this board.
I included a pic of the design so far, let me know what you think.
Yes pull up and down resisters are per line not chip. There purpose is to make sure the line is always in a definit state. They are not needed for lines that are always outputs but for safety reasons you need to include them anyways.
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Ok, I've attached the current design. I've made some notes on what things are for reference.· This is made with pcbartist from pcbartist.com.· You should be able to at least open it, zoom in and whatever.· I have some custom components in there, but it should still open.· I think it is all pretty straight forward and what may be questionable is noted on the board.· Just for SNG's, I'm going to try coating some of my photo paper with a real thick geletin solution tomorrow and letting it dry out.· The idea is to make a thin watersoulable layer on the surface for the toner to stick to, that when soaked will dissolve leaving only traces behind. Any suggestions on this as I don't have any press and peel and it would take a few days to get some in and I really want to get this built tomorrow?·
I also have some experimenting to do with the paper going through the printer. I had a couple of sheets of photo paper get sucked through at once and it seemed that that was the best transfer I'd had.· Could it possibly have insulated the toner a bit from the fuser and not let it bond as well to the surface?· There has to be some simple way of getting toner to peel off easily that no one has tried yet.
I didn't get an answer on if I need a resistor for the status LED's on the drivers. They already have the series resistors in line, do they still need their own resistors. You can see them at the very top of the board. The lower ones are all separate, but I don't have much room to make the others separate on top. Since it's such a low voltage on those anyway, what size would you suggest for those again?· 300?
Let me know if you notice any lines that are bridged that I missed. I printed a transparency of the top and bottom and didn't see any, but there are so many it's possible.· I don't have a schematic of this and it would take a little while to draw one up.· I built everything in order, ran single lines to all the chips at once for the 5 shared lines, then one at a time to each for the enables, then went back and put in all of the LED's and resistors so they "should" all be in the proper places.
The reason for the oversized via's and pads is cause I had trouble with them coming off the board during drilling on the really small ones·so I compensated for it by making them as big as I could.· Also, most of the traces go at 45 degrees on the corners because they seemed to transfer better then the 90's.·· All of the En/Dis pins should be the standard jumper size for easily selecting the different options.· The pull up and pulldowns on the spares are selected by where the resistor is soldered
why do you not use photo sensitive copper boards? you print your design on a transparency. tape it to the board in a dark room then expose to a brigt uv light for a while(think it was 10min been a while) you then place in developing film which removes all the protective coating that was exposed to light(or that wasn't again been a few years) leaving you with a board that can be etched.
as for the resisters for the led. yes and no. without the voltage on the line will not be allowed to go above the led voltage. depending on color some leds have a high enough voltage that logic data would still go through. would be best to put in anyways.
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interesting that you used 4pcb.com software. have never played with it but does it not have a rule test like in eagle? that feature has been a life saver for me. It tells me if traces over lap, or if things get to close for the manufacturer to make for me.
i do know you can submit your design to 4pcb and they will check if they can make it. this would be a good check. http://www.freedfm.com/
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If I had photo sensitive boards, I would have gone that route, but these are boards that I ordered a couple years ago for a different project and still had them lying around. Besides photo sensitive boards are more expensive. I thik I got these 8x12 2/2 boards for around $2 each so they were cheap enough at the time.
Did you download the software and look at the board?· Yes, It does have a rule check in there, and it doesn't say any lines cross and nothing is too close.· It says I have a bunch of open lines because I didn't draw my custom components correctly with the schematic symbol in them, just the pcb symbol.
Ok installed the software and am not sure what I am looking at. At the top I see what looks like a ribon cable connecter and bellow i see 6 ics guessing these are the tpics. i don't see any relays so I ust have missed something.
I must be looking at the wrong part because the tpic6595 originally mentioned is 20pin soic or dip.
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Ummmm.. that's my bad, I somehow loaded an old version of it. This should be the correct version of the Master Console with the drivers and heaers and labeling. I have it in a Folder called CNC.· There are two copies of this CNC folder, one on my desktop and one on my server for pushing files out to my CNC machine. I pulled it from the wrong one.
ok first thing i notice is your ground plane is a rats nest of traces. use the "Add Area For Copper Pour" tool to make the entire top and bottom gnd except where you have traces
Second if space is an issue you could move the components on the top down about an inch by taking advantage of both sides of the board better.
Few questions. What are the ics. and what is the purpose of this board. presumably to control the slave boards by the name but describe how it works.
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The IC's are all of the drivers going to the slave boards.· This board is the interface for between the prop and the rest of the system.·
Function.
I thought you had been keeping up on the function of the different boards.· Anyway, here goes.
The basic fuction is to act as the interface for the prop development board and to distribute the data from the prop to the different slaves via cat5 cable.
Each of the IC's are quad line drivers connected to the cat5 jacks in the center.· The prop sends the data out to the entire chain of drivers at the same time. The drivers are also either enabled or disabled by the prop.· When it is time to send the data stream out to one of the slaves, the prop enables the driver for the slave via one of the 5-16 prop pins.· Once all of the slaves have had their data sent to them, the prop enables all drivers and sends out the commands to activate all relays that were previously programmed.·
The Added I/O lines are for extra options such as the reset, Start/Pause, and I think maybe a remote start for my CD player and an additional board in the future if necessary.
mctrivia said...
would recommend changing the traces with parts on top and bottom to all on bottom if you can.
What do you mean?
BTW, I figured out how to do the copper pour. I alread printed and transferred a test one to a board, Amazing difference in the trace quality with that much toner on the board, everything likes to stick better.· I did find a mistake though. I poured it attached to the 3.3v, not ground.· So I had to change that.· Can you find anywhere in there how to make a larger boarder on the traces within the pour area? ·
also you can etch more boards with your etchent this way.
by the way i would add more vias. it is generally good to connect the ground plane between top and bottom at multiple places. not to mention this program allows free floating pads which are better connected electrically to ground.
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I am trying to avoid using the bottom layer, which is actually the top when you think about it because I am using through hole IC's so the chip itself goes on the top of the board and connects to the copper on the bottom.· About the only stuff I want on the top are the actual components, Chips, LED's, Resistors, and Capacitors.
chaosgk, I am working on the actual command interpeter and am at the point where I need to have the start/pause and reset button. Do you want to use an actual push buttons connected to P26/27 or would you prefer to use a PC keyboard. The keyboard approach would be more flexible if you wanted to expand the functions in future, but has the disadvantage of having a lot of keys to confuse the issue.
btw - the switches do not need to go through the master board if the protoboard has the keyboard/mouse/video connectors installed. They could be plugged in to the PS2 connector using an old keyboard cable.
Even without the connector installed the 4 resistors could be mounted and the wires from the switches connected directly to the protoboard.
You should still pour a good ground plane on the top of the board with any vias connecting the 2. you can increase the clearance when you print off the top to 50 or 100 mil and i am sure you will have no problems with shorting to anything.
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Comments
(P0 to P19) should have a pull down resistor except SRCLR, which should have a pull up resistor. That is so the lines will be in a safe (or least dangerous) state if the prop pins were disconnected or changed to inputs for any reason.
P26(reset) and P27(start/pause) should have pull up resistors so that a push button can be connected between the line and ground.
btw, how are you connecting the protoboard to the master board?
I would suggest using a hard disk cable and mounting headers with locking clips on the protoboard and master board.
Heading out now. Will check back tonight.
That site sells kits in 1206 size also which is much bigger.
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Anyway, I have 10 spare IO lines coming into the board now for start/pause, whatever else. Each of those has a selectable pull up/pull down resistor and a series resistor just before the pin header for that line.· Check me on this.· For each of the enable lines, I have 3 resistors on it.· A led resistor, a pull down resistor, and a series resistor.· Each driver has a .1uf cap between the power and ground.· For each·data line I have a series resistor and a pull down resistor except srclr,·that has the pull up resistor.· I only need one pull up or down resistor for each of the data lines correct, not one for each driver?·There are status lights for all signal lines going to the drivers with resistors between them and ground, except the Srclr, that goes to·3.3v· Since I have the series resistor, do I still need a led resistor since it is already being dropped.· I really hope you guys know what you're talking about and I'm not getting things mixed up with where lines go. I thought I had put pull down resistors on the lines already and looked and they were missing so I had to find a way to route all of that stuff.
My etching tank is just about done, but·I'm going to try some experiments to see if I can get my traces to transfer a little better before I start this board.
I included a pic of the design so far, let me know what you think.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 5/16/2009 10:11:39 PM GMT
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mctrivia, try saving it and pasting it into paint. Then you can zoom to as much as 800% for a close look.
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I also have some experimenting to do with the paper going through the printer. I had a couple of sheets of photo paper get sucked through at once and it seemed that that was the best transfer I'd had.· Could it possibly have insulated the toner a bit from the fuser and not let it bond as well to the surface?· There has to be some simple way of getting toner to peel off easily that no one has tried yet.
I didn't get an answer on if I need a resistor for the status LED's on the drivers. They already have the series resistors in line, do they still need their own resistors. You can see them at the very top of the board. The lower ones are all separate, but I don't have much room to make the others separate on top. Since it's such a low voltage on those anyway, what size would you suggest for those again?· 300?
Let me know if you notice any lines that are bridged that I missed. I printed a transparency of the top and bottom and didn't see any, but there are so many it's possible.· I don't have a schematic of this and it would take a little while to draw one up.· I built everything in order, ran single lines to all the chips at once for the 5 shared lines, then one at a time to each for the enables, then went back and put in all of the LED's and resistors so they "should" all be in the proper places.
The reason for the oversized via's and pads is cause I had trouble with them coming off the board during drilling on the really small ones·so I compensated for it by making them as big as I could.· Also, most of the traces go at 45 degrees on the corners because they seemed to transfer better then the 90's.·· All of the En/Dis pins should be the standard jumper size for easily selecting the different options.· The pull up and pulldowns on the spares are selected by where the resistor is soldered
as for the resisters for the led. yes and no. without the voltage on the line will not be allowed to go above the led voltage. depending on color some leds have a high enough voltage that logic data would still go through. would be best to put in anyways.
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i do know you can submit your design to 4pcb and they will check if they can make it. this would be a good check. http://www.freedfm.com/
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Did you download the software and look at the board?· Yes, It does have a rule check in there, and it doesn't say any lines cross and nothing is too close.· It says I have a bunch of open lines because I didn't draw my custom components correctly with the schematic symbol in them, just the pcb symbol.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 5/17/2009 3:27:24 PM GMT
By the way one option that may help with your space wows is to bend the leads on the relays and make them into surface mount. a lot of work though.
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I must be looking at the wrong part because the tpic6595 originally mentioned is 20pin soic or dip.
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 5/17/2009 8:05:26 PM GMT
This should make more sense.
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Second if space is an issue you could move the components on the top down about an inch by taking advantage of both sides of the board better.
Few questions. What are the ics. and what is the purpose of this board. presumably to control the slave boards by the name but describe how it works.
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Function.
I thought you had been keeping up on the function of the different boards.· Anyway, here goes.
The basic fuction is to act as the interface for the prop development board and to distribute the data from the prop to the different slaves via cat5 cable.
Each of the IC's are quad line drivers connected to the cat5 jacks in the center.· The prop sends the data out to the entire chain of drivers at the same time. The drivers are also either enabled or disabled by the prop.· When it is time to send the data stream out to one of the slaves, the prop enables the driver for the slave via one of the 5-16 prop pins.· Once all of the slaves have had their data sent to them, the prop enables all drivers and sends out the commands to activate all relays that were previously programmed.·
The Added I/O lines are for extra options such as the reset, Start/Pause, and I think maybe a remote start for my CD player and an additional board in the future if necessary.
·
ok sounds good to what i can see here. i have no schematic but i see nothing wrong electrically other then poor ground plane.
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BTW, I figured out how to do the copper pour. I alread printed and transferred a test one to a board, Amazing difference in the trace quality with that much toner on the board, everything likes to stick better.· I did find a mistake though. I poured it attached to the 3.3v, not ground.· So I had to change that.· Can you find anywhere in there how to make a larger boarder on the traces within the pour area?
·
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tracks to shapes.
vias to shapes may be a good idea also.
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 5/18/2009 4:48:48 AM GMT
by the way i would add more vias. it is generally good to connect the ground plane between top and bottom at multiple places. not to mention this program allows free floating pads which are better connected electrically to ground.
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 5/18/2009 4:55:33 AM GMT
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btw - the switches do not need to go through the master board if the protoboard has the keyboard/mouse/video connectors installed. They could be plugged in to the PS2 connector using an old keyboard cable.
Even without the connector installed the 4 resistors could be mounted and the wires from the switches connected directly to the protoboard.
Post Edited (kwinn) : 5/18/2009 2:53:51 PM GMT
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