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Relay board - Page 21 — Parallax Forums

Relay board

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 09:01
    Wow, I missed a lot of posts tonight...·

    Anyway, I'm from North Dakota (US in case you forgot us in the North Central part of the Country).· For starters, the electronic firing systems do start at around $15,000 and you are looking at $1000+ per set of cues along with the software to run it. Total cost for what either my system or·Mctrivias will do would be around $50,000.· So for the $1000 or so I will have into the system and all of the components, I'd say I'm way ahead, plus I've made some new international friends out of the deal as well so that's just an added bonus.··

    Now, onto the answers.· The ignitors are made from simple .030 thickness double sided PCB.· The basic design is cut a 1.25" strip of PCB, remove about .2" of copper from each of the four edges.· I use 46 Awg nichrom wire and wrap it around the entire board leaving about .2" spacing between each turn.· I then solder the point where the nichrome meets the copper. This gives roughly 1/2" of nichrome bridge.

    After everything is soldered, I remove the rest of the nichrome that is between the solder points by simply running a razor blade down the length of it and cut the strip in half, then cut out each individual "chip"· Once those are all cut out, they need to be cleaned. I use acetone to get rid of the solder flux, then solder on a 3'-4' long piece of twisted pair wire that we salvage from Cat5 cable.

    I can make about 120 chips in around 1 hour, not including soldering on the lead wires, that takes another couple of hours.· Total cost per ignitor is around $.05.
    Once all of the soldering is done, they get several dips in different pyro compositions and a final coat of NC laquer.

    The finer the nichrome wire the better, 46awg is about the biggest I'd use, I can get mine to fire off a single 3.7v 500mah lipo battery, but I push the max 24v to them that my relays will handle to compensate for loss across the shooting wire.· I've tested my relays and I can actually hook up to 3 ignitors to each realy to fire multiple shots off one channel which gives me 2000+ ignition points.

    Lab Rat, how old are you BTW?·

    I'm not sure on this version if we will be doing any marketing on them. We are hoping to have this system up and running for a real world test by the first weekend in September and then I'm sure there will be some software updates after that, assuming I don't burn the entire system out on the first shot.... [noparse]:)[/noparse]· Cost on each board isn't bad, but I don't want to put a specific price on any of it.· Kwinn and Mctrivica know most of the costs of the chips and know where to find them. Besides any profit that may be made out of this will be shared with them anyway so I can't really begin to start quoting prices at this point..· We have·not even passed the working prototype phase of the project yet.

    Kwin, I had to work tonight, but the first row on the relay board is just about done.· I will post a screen shot of the first row for your approval and suggestions in the morning.· I'm labeling everything I can for future reference and placement. Once I get the first row laid out the·way I want, it's just a matter of copy and paste and connect the data traces. I plan on uploading the master and slave tomorrow night to the printing company·and would expect them to be shipped sometime this week but I would say it would be at least middle of next week until anything arrives at your door. Once I get them, it will take me an evening to assemble both a master and slave for you to have.· Do you have a propmod from mctrivia?· I'd be willing to pay mctrivia for one if he would send it to you so I can test on my end with multiple slaves while you work with your side.· I need to have them in the mail to you by Aug 5th, as I leave for a big music festival in Minnesota that day, then onto the big PGI fireworks convention in Iowa the entire next week.·

    Mctrivia, What did you mean about putting more than one via on high current traces?· You'll have to look at the layout when I post it and let me know if I'm missing something on the design.· My high current traces are .125" thick going to the relays, I would hope that is big enough, I can possibly make the main feed that runs to each row of Realys bigger if need be, but the current draw is so low and spaced out, it shouldnt' be a problem.
  • Lab RatLab Rat Posts: 289
    edited 2009-07-26 15:34
    i didnt forget your state exists if i try hard enough i can write them all down it would just take a little bit lol.
    i am 18 i will be 19 next month i went to a votech center for robotics and automation i specialize in industrial motor controls and Programmable Logic Controllers (PLC's) which is like programming with relays and swicthes it is used for real worl aplications out on the industry floor. i have graduated this past year and am about ready to get a better job so i can start paying for college next year yes i do know alot for my age and no i have never set off professional fireworks but i have set off three inch morters for the forth of july this year for my own display we gave the strawberry festival a run for their money with our stuff and they had the pros setting theirs off we only had out of stat stuff from new hampshire i think we got them and where did you find the tyco relays personally i am not thrilled with tyco because they layed off my grandma and moved to mexico ***** (and some other chioce words) but they have decent products. i wouldnt mind coming to see one of your displays in person as a vacation but that would be in a few years lol and i would love to check out the system i think i forgot some of the stuff i wanted to say but the forums are always here so i can post it when i remember lol

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    ·
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-26 16:07
    my main power traces on my board are 400mil+-20mil but with my board, repairs will be impossible do to the fireproof coating placed over all the parts to protect from mechanical vibration. I am expecting my first panel of PCB this week. Unfortunately those connectors where back ordered until about next week, and I am waiting for a sample laser cut insulator. Hope to have everything together and tested before my wedding on the 15th.

    As for multiple vias see the attached diagram where I use 5 vias to transfer a high current impulse between layers.

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 17:03
    I uploaded the relay board to the other forum for the hardware/software.
  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 17:31
    BTW, Lab Rat, 896 cue points may sound like a limitation, but you need to know that not every shot you see in a display is using a cue point. There are still racks and cakes that are fused manually with regular fuse as well. You also have to factor in that when all of the time is added up, each shot takes at least one man hour to get in the air. In this years display alone, we had over 1500 man hours and we will have another 200-300 before we are ready for our Labor day shoot. I know we could get licensed and purchase commercially available shells, but at $10-$20/shot for what we can build for $2-$5, it's not really worth it, and that's just for 3"-4" shells. Once all of the hardware is done, I will still have at least 40 hours of programming to do for all of the choreography just to make it look right. Each different effect that is seen during our show gets built at least twice. For our 6" shells alone this year, it took three test shots just to get them in the air and burst. For a professional display, 99.99% of the time is spent preparing for the show and building everything, .01% is the actual display that everyone sees. This is a hobby of ours, all of it, the fireworks, the electronics, the designing, and the music and we do it because we enjoy it.

    Where are you from anyway?
    p.s. you should work on your punctuation a little, it's kind of annoying reading things when there are no pauses in the sentences.
  • Lab RatLab Rat Posts: 289
    edited 2009-07-26 20:00
    oh, sorry, bad habit of mine. i hardly ever use punctation when i am typing in the forum. i am from pennsylvania, and anything other then smokebombs, inchers, and sparklers is kinda illegal [noparse]:([/noparse] thats why we get stuff out of state or we know a pyro company we can order from lol

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    ·
  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 21:20
    Boy, that would really suck to live in a state with that kind of restrictions on fireworks. Much better on the punctuation that time.
  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 22:05
    "strange you have 2 nets called 24v+"
    FIXED

    "as mentioned i would use more then 1 via on the firing traces"
    FIXED (I Think)

    "straiten up the firing traces and avoid 90 bends"
    TOOK OUT ALL 90 Degree bends. what do you mean by straiten up?

    "why do you have multiple voltage regulators? you should not paralel regulators like that"
    I was mistaken on needing more than one. Removed extras

    i do not see any caps before or after the regulator which are needed(100uF)
    ADDED 2 on each side.

    for safety i would recomend having a pull up resister right by the relay on the active relay coil(you are using low side firing) you can drop these traces to 12mil width

    I Don't quite follow on this? I would guess you mean to put them on the same side of the coil that goes to the tpic, but connect it to the 5v+ line?






    Post Edited (chaosgk) : 7/26/2009 10:42:12 PM GMT
  • Lab RatLab Rat Posts: 289
    edited 2009-07-26 22:17
    it isnt that bad but it is we arent even allowed to have bottle rockets how lame is that like seriosly
    chaosgk said...
    Boy, that would really suck to live in a state with that kind of restrictions on fireworks. Much better on the punctuation that time.
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    ·
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-26 22:34
    chaosgk said...
    mctrivia said...
    for safety i would recomend having a pull up resister right by the relay on the active relay coil(you are using low side firing) you can drop these traces to 12mil width

    I Don't quite follow on this? I would guess you mean to put them on the same side of the coil as the goes to the TPic...... ????


    on the image i am looking at to what i can see you have the 5v power going to ry02 to pin 5 and the tkip connected to pin 3. when a low is sent by the tkip it trigers the relay on. i would place a resister between 5v and pin 3 right beside the relay.



    as for straitening up. you have bends that are unnecisary on the firing trace. for example n0043 could be pulled out a bit and made a straight run to the bend just before the header.

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-26 23:44
    Ok, made all of the changes, added in the pull up resistors (what size?)· Only other question is can I put in a resistor for the 24v Gnd that will allow me to arm the relays so that the status LED's will come on for the Relay's being active and the ignitor contenuity LED's, then when it is time for the show, I can use a Key Switch to provide full Ground.
    I've attached the updated version with another 24v ground out that will run to the distribution boards.· You can see the added switches and relay pullups.· I guess what i'm looking for is having the status contenuity LED's all go through one resistor that will drop it far enough to be safe.. Hope this makes sense.
    I also realize I will need a larger trace for the 24v Gnd switch, but I just put one in there to show what I mean.
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  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 00:17
    problem is there is no safe way for you to have a match continuity led with current setup. the 20mA used to light an led could possibly light the match(not likely). i am using 1uA to check for continuity through match.

    yes you can put a current limiting resister on the ground to limit the possibility of fire though.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 00:33
    ??? I'm not sure I get what you mean again... I already have the match continuity LED's in place. they run off the relay in the NC position with the 1.2k resistors in line with them, then they bypass the relay, go out to the match, return back to the board via the other seperate ground wire. When the relays turn on, the continuity light goes out, the relay on LED lights up and something goes boom, the relay turns off and the continuity light should be out unless the wire gets shorted during detonation. The way it is currently setup has been tested on my previous push button firing boards and works very well.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 00:36
    just a warning that some matches can ignite off the current you are using for the LED test. you personally are not using flash bulbs or anything unstable enough to go off at that current.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

    Want to make projects and have Gadget Gangster sell them for you? propmod-us_ps_sd and propmod-1x1 are now available for use in your Gadget Gangster Projects.

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 00:39
    Got it. I'm posting the newest revision right now on the other forum if you want to pick it apart again for me. There should be no problem using a single resistor connected to the ground in case there is a relay on when I turn on the 24v and then a switch to bypass the resistor?
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 00:43
    no problem at all. as long as r=e/i where i is a number small enough that it will not ignite the matches. 0.020 is about what the leds need each.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 00:51
    I'm heading out to help a buddy maiden his new 25% RC plane so I'll check back later. If the relay board looks good now, let me know and I'll finalize it and get it uploaded to the printers when I get home.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 00:57
    few things:

    1) power caps traces should be on same side to reduce need of extra via.
    2) do you know what side the heat sink is on the regulator? make sure that side is the one with some room.
    3) N0061 can stay on the bottom side on the right.
    4) N0060 can run entirely on bottom if you flip N0598 to the top

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 01:17
    The 5v regulator is a 1.5A SMD, Do I need to go higher than that? I can change it to a thru hole pad and the heatsink would be on the correct side with space between the regulator and capacitor. I'm not leaving now, my buddy flew without me so I'm going to finish this.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 01:22
    depends on your relay coil current.

    if i am not mistaken 5v runs relay and tkip only.

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 01:28
    Yes, that is all it runs, at any given time, there would at most be 10 relays active at once and if I'm not mistaken, they were around 80mAh to activate.· Do you want to check it out with the last few changes and were my multiple vias for the high currents acceptable?


    Post Edited (chaosgk) : 7/27/2009 1:33:50 AM GMT
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 01:42
    yes multiple vias where fine. 1 is probably fine but just in case you want backups.

    if 80mAx10 then that is only half the regulator can take so it will be fine.

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    propmod_us and propmod_1x1 are in stock. Only $30. PCB available for $5

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 01:51
    Ok, starting on populating the rest of the board, I'll upload it when finished.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2009-07-27 02:29
    chaosgk, as far as I can see the layout looks ok. I am going to assemble a second board for testing my software but send me a master and slave as soon as they are ready. Nothing like testing software on the final hardware for finding problems with either one.

    No, I do not have a propmod, so yes, please have mctrivia send one to me. I will pm or email both of you my address. Even by snail mail the propmod should get here before the boards do so no point in wasting money on fast delivery. As mentioned before, I will return everything once the software is completed.
  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 02:51
    Final Version is posted on the other forum. Going to start on the Master here shortly.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-27 03:59
    looks good

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  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-27 05:39
    Changed some minor things around, added some additional 24v ground outputs on the open side of the board and cleaned up a couple of minor mistakes.
  • chaosgkchaosgk Posts: 322
    edited 2009-07-28 00:41
    You guys on here tonight? I'm working on the master and will be posting them as I go for your review. Everything will be labeled for what it is.
  • mctriviamctrivia Posts: 3,772
    edited 2009-07-28 00:45
    yes for the most part.

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  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2009-07-28 01:25
    I will check back around 11:00 (9:00 your time)
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