It's unfortunate we couldn't get it done for the fourth, but these things do happen. I am having problems getting the timer to update the time in hub ram so I will be posting a plea for help in the propeller forum. There was just too much code to execute in spin and get accurate timing as well.
We are almost there so lets just keep plugging away at it until it's done.
chaosgk if your fireworks can fire off with 500mA I can build you a product that will do 128 firework/board.
Liked the video by the way.
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Sounds like a good plan to me. The pressure is totally on us and my guys to get all of the shells assembeled by midnight friday so we can get up saturday morning and set it out, spend the day with our family and walk out and sit down and fire it.
I'll test some spare ignitors after we are done and say for sure what their burning current is.
chaosgk, with the help of Mike Greeen I have the software with the timer running in it's own cog working. I can also send a binary file if you want. This version will be good for testing the master and slave boards when they are ready.
After catching up on the posts this morning I have a question. Are you still going ahead with the controller as we planned or do you and mctrivia have something different in mind?
btw - if you can send me one (assembled) master and slave (relays not required) board I can debug the hardware and software and return them when finished.
The other option is to schedule a time when we are free and use something like skype (voip or messaging) to get together and do it online.
Kwinn do you do any pc programming? I am developing a professional grade pyrotechnics system and need a programmer to do the computer side.
chaosgk I will be able to provide you with a system for your help in testing and tweeking. One thing i need to know is can you reliably fire your matches with a 12v power supply and 24ohm resister?
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mctrivia, I have done a bit of PC programming in C, Basic, and a couple of scripting languages, but most of my work has been in assembler or C on various micros. If you have an outline of what you want done I will take a look at it, but I will make no promises. I do not have enough spare time to give a large project the time it requires to produce a complete and professional result.
chaosgk don't expect you to be on here today but hope the show goes great. Just a note that in my fireworks system I have ditched the thought of 500mA and have gone with 20A instead.
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Ok, sorry for not getting up to date on what has been happening with the system. The show was a flop, Most of the 500 people out there liked it, but we could only get about 1/3rd of the stuff to fire. It was a problem with our firing board and the connections and cabling problems and dew. We raised about $700 in donations which is hopefully enough to get the boards professionally printed. I would like to still go with my relay system since we already have all the parts for it and have spent so much time developing it. We have another evening of clean up to do and then I will get back to work on the computer system.
We decided to do another shoot in the first week of september to get rid of what we have built so it doesn't have to be stored over the winter and I would like the new system up and running by then so we can do a real world test on it.
$700 will get you 930 square inches from gold phoenix.
I have been told relays would be to dangerous but that is building for anyone. If you are careful and meter the relay contacts before each show should be ok.
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That is part of the design of the relay boards. There is a LED for each of the relays that show it's status, open or closed even if there are no ignitors actually hooked up.· so when each show is done, we would simply need to check all of the boards to see if any of the relay status lights are still active, if they are, we simply replace the relay with a new one.· I will pull out a couple hundred feet of cable tonight and hook up a relay and ignitor to it and see if I can get the relay to fuse and· see how much it takes for that to happen.·
New relays don't usually fuse. Requires repetition. Other problem with relay try dropping one it may connect when hits the ground.
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As far as repetion goes, if this system is used as designed, the relays will be activated with full current once, maybe twice a year. These are after all designed for a single .5 second activation once through an entire show. I will run a few tests with them tonight, even as far as setting off a pyro next to one of them with that one connected to another pyro to see if it triggers it. the only way I see it getting dropped or having that type of force is if a pyro were to land on the relay board and burst, and even then the relay boards will be mounted in cases with sandbags over them for protection from fallout and fire.
chaosgk, the prop software I posted last Friday is almost complete. The version currently posted ( 0.06 ) does not turn the relays off after 0.5 seconds. It leaves them on until the next command is executed in order to make testing the slaves easier. I plan to add the following items to it as quickly as possible.
- Turn relays off after a 0.5 second delay. - already added to code.
- Replace keyboard with 2 push button switches. Should be done in the next 3-4 days.
No kwinn, that sounds good. I need to test a few things on my end and I have more parts on the way. I'm looking for different connectors than the standard RJ45 jacks, they work ok, but I want something along the lines of a xlr type connector or something with a good solid connection to link from the slaves to the distribution panels. We built some new racks that hold 42 tubes and there will be 7 of those total in the show so I may use one slave to run each of those and keep the extra channels on those to run mine racks. The RJ45's have proven themselves to be somewhat unreliable. I would like to make snake cables for each of the racks that have 6 cat 5 or 6 cables in them with one ground for the whole set.
Any good suggestions on a solid connector that can handle between 7 and 42 wires? anythng is fine as long as it makes a good connection. I thought about terminal blocks, but there are just too many wires to connect in the field in the proper order. I have access to 25 pair wire that would work well for this if I can find a way to connect them. I suppose it would be possible to mount a slave directly on the rack, but I want to have at least 15' of seperation between the electronics and the pyro racks.
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Still my uploader should give correct code to insert.
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chaosgk, there are weather resistant connectors available with high pin counts but they are quite expensive. The alternative that comes to mind is the DB style connector which comes in 9, 15, 25, 37, and 50 pin versions.
I think your idea of a "snake" cable with separate grounds is a good idea. What I would suggest is having the connectors on the PC board inside a weather proof enclosure with a foam gasket to seal around the cable entry point.
For the master to the slaves I think the RJ45 should be fine provided the connectors are inside the enclosure at both ends. For the slaves to the distribution panels I think RJ45's inside the slave enclosure may work. Would it be possible to put the distribution panel inside the slave enclosure?
To a great extent the physical layout of the slaves and distribution panels will determine the optimum layout and connections, and I don't know that well enogh to be of help. I will attach a diagram and some questions to this post later.
OK, I have posted a simple diagram of the enclosure and wiring layout. Now for some questions.
How far will the furthest slave be from the master?
How far apart or over what area would the slaves be spread?
How far would the distribution panels be from the slave or over what area would they be scattered?
Would it be practical to run 56 pairs of wire from the slaves and connect them directly to the shell/firework?
How many connections per distribution panel or panels per slave do you want?
Would it be practical to solder the wires to the distribution panel?
You asked about soldering matches. I soldered the propmod I sent you.
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First of all, I was looking at the db25 connectors as well. I've seen commercial systems connected with a long db25 cable so I would assume the connections are acceptable.
I was trying to avoid putting the distribution panels directly in with the slaves because of the wiring night mare that we already have.· Each pyro has a single pair of wires that come from it and need to get routed through the the display rack.· The new racks currently hold 42 tubes and that will be standard for the rest of our racks.
I picture a distribution panel mounted on each end of the 42 shot racks with a db25 cable running to each end and a ground.·
The furthest slave from the master could be 200'.· From there I can run long cables out to the distribution panels if I need more distance.
The slaves will be spread over a 300'x300' wide area usually in a symetrical layout.
I would like the slaves to be around 15' from the distribution panels for the most part with a few spread out further for different effects.
It would not be practical to run 56 pairs of wires from the shell/firework to the slaves because of the rat's nest we would have in doing that.
I would like each slave to have two db25's on them to run out to 25 pyro's per cable and then have the extra 6 channels as spares to run out· across a single cat5 cable to a small 6 position distribution panel.
I would also like a couple of slaves with 8 groups of 7 that I can run out to individual clusters.·
All of the relay slave boards can be built the same, it's the interface from the board to the distribution boards I need to work out.
I've found db25 connectors cheap enough for the board side, I just need to find a cheap source of the cable side and that will be solved.
I would also like the option of running more than one panel off the same slave if there is enough current to spare without blowing out the relays so I can get multiple shots off the same channel.· Otherwise I want to stick with the planned 56 relays per slave.
The Distribution panels were not in an enclosure, but they will be. Mctrivia found some spring connectors pretty cheap I'm going to look at and see if I can make those work.· I need to find a cheap source of plastic enclosures of different sizes.· I was looking at black tool boxes, or a way to make my own, but not out of wood unless necessary.
For a plastic enclosure you may also want to look at the larger fishing tackle boxes as well as the tool boxes.
I take it since you are looking at 200' cables from master to slave and 15' from the slave to the distribution panel that you and the master console will be somewhat central to the 300'x300' area the slaves will be spread over.
The 2 DB 25 connectors with cables (and a hefty separate ground) going to 2 distribution panels is a good way to go. Will you solder the wires on the distribution end? The fewer mechanical contacts the better.
That leaves 8 unused relays in the distribution panel. Are they going to be spares or do you have another use for them?
You could use a DB 15 for a smaller 14 shot distribution panel or 2 RJ45's (or DB9's) for 2 7 shot panels and use only 21 of the 25 pins on the DB25's.
For the most part I'm looking at around 15' from slave to distribution panel but some of the bigger stuff may be a couple hundred feet away from it's slave. On the distributor end, I will either use the current screw type terminal blocks I have or the new spring connectors that mctrivia has.
For the unused relays, I was planning on having those run to mines or something else close by, not sure yet, but I will be using every available relay out there.
I did some testing with the relays tonight and the way I have it setup, when the relay is off, it shows a green LED to indicate that the ignitor is good. when the relay activates, it instantly triggers another LED to show it is turned on once the ignitor burns out, the on relay turns off (in this version) the ignitor triggers so quickly, I don't actually see the LED light up. I was only doing this with a 5' ignitor wire, not the 20' or so it would normally use.
I also tried putting a solid line in place of the ignitor and activating the relay, I could not get the relay to fuse. I let it off and did it several more times for about 3 seconds a piece and still didn't fuse. I ran another ignitor test on the same relay and it was again an instant pop.
I'm sure the amp draw will increase with the long runs out to the bigger stuff, but the relays proved they can handle more current than what the ignitors take. mctrivia, i will be sending you some ematch blanks tomorrow so I'll need your address if you want to pm me that. I would like to see what you read for a amp draw when they light, but I would put beer on it that it's lower than 20-25 amps like the commercial ones say they require.
If it is over 5 amps I would be surprised and it's such a short pulse I can't see how it would make that much of a difference, especially considering the max time is .5 seconds to be powered.
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Hey, out of curiosity, can the same data be put out to more than one of the slaves at a time, say I put a Y in the trace that sends out the·enable to the drivers, could I run more than one slave off the same channel?· I'm not planning on it, I'm just curious if it is possible.· Say I want to run two slaves completely syncronized, would that work? I would assume it would since we are transmitting all of the same data to all of the drivers at once anyway.· I don't see why it wouldn't work.· In the future I could see running multiple slaves sync'd and this would save me the programming time of doing it in the software.· Plus if I'm going to order 10 slaves, I might as well order 15 and pay hardly any extra for them and just order more relays in the future. ·
Yes. There will be a limit due to the impedance mismatch and I have no idea what the limit would be, but if the speed is low (<10Kb/S) I expect 2 slaves would not be a problem and 4-5 might be possible.
I don't think so, but it would be a good idea to verify it.
I am puzzled as to why you want to do this though. If tou wanted say slave 3 to fire the same tube at the same time as slave 1 all you have to do is copy the slave 1 command and paste it before the "at time" statement and change the 1 to a 3.
Are you planning to formalize the order/layout by having specific types of shells in specific tubes/racks?
Comments
We are almost there so lets just keep plugging away at it until it's done.
Liked the video by the way.
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Post Edited (mctrivia) : 7/3/2009 6:03:43 AM GMT
I'll test some spare ignitors after we are done and say for sure what their burning current is.
After catching up on the posts this morning I have a question. Are you still going ahead with the controller as we planned or do you and mctrivia have something different in mind?
The other option is to schedule a time when we are free and use something like skype (voip or messaging) to get together and do it online.
chaosgk I will be able to provide you with a system for your help in testing and tweeking. One thing i need to know is can you reliably fire your matches with a 12v power supply and 24ohm resister?
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We decided to do another shoot in the first week of september to get rid of what we have built so it doesn't have to be stored over the winter and I would like the new system up and running by then so we can do a real world test on it.
I have been told relays would be to dangerous but that is building for anyone. If you are careful and meter the relay contacts before each show should be ok.
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- Turn relays off after a 0.5 second delay. - already added to code.
- Replace keyboard with 2 push button switches. Should be done in the next 3-4 days.
Is there anything else I need to do?
Any good suggestions on a solid connector that can handle between 7 and 42 wires? anythng is fine as long as it makes a good connection. I thought about terminal blocks, but there are just too many wires to connect in the field in the proper order. I have access to 25 pair wire that would work well for this if I can find a way to connect them. I suppose it would be possible to mount a slave directly on the rack, but I want to have at least 15' of seperation between the electronics and the pyro racks.
Here is the latest version of the firetick software.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 7/7/2009 4:11:42 PM GMT
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I think your idea of a "snake" cable with separate grounds is a good idea. What I would suggest is having the connectors on the PC board inside a weather proof enclosure with a foam gasket to seal around the cable entry point.
For the master to the slaves I think the RJ45 should be fine provided the connectors are inside the enclosure at both ends. For the slaves to the distribution panels I think RJ45's inside the slave enclosure may work. Would it be possible to put the distribution panel inside the slave enclosure?
To a great extent the physical layout of the slaves and distribution panels will determine the optimum layout and connections, and I don't know that well enogh to be of help. I will attach a diagram and some questions to this post later.
OK, I have posted a simple diagram of the enclosure and wiring layout. Now for some questions.
How far will the furthest slave be from the master?
How far apart or over what area would the slaves be spread?
How far would the distribution panels be from the slave or over what area would they be scattered?
Would it be practical to run 56 pairs of wire from the slaves and connect them directly to the shell/firework?
How many connections per distribution panel or panels per slave do you want?
Would it be practical to solder the wires to the distribution panel?
Are the distribution panels in an enclosure?
Post Edited (kwinn) : 7/7/2009 6:42:05 PM GMT
Why did you ask if I could solder a prop mod the other day?
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First of all, I was looking at the db25 connectors as well. I've seen commercial systems connected with a long db25 cable so I would assume the connections are acceptable.
I was trying to avoid putting the distribution panels directly in with the slaves because of the wiring night mare that we already have.· Each pyro has a single pair of wires that come from it and need to get routed through the the display rack.· The new racks currently hold 42 tubes and that will be standard for the rest of our racks.
I picture a distribution panel mounted on each end of the 42 shot racks with a db25 cable running to each end and a ground.·
The furthest slave from the master could be 200'.· From there I can run long cables out to the distribution panels if I need more distance.
The slaves will be spread over a 300'x300' wide area usually in a symetrical layout.
I would like the slaves to be around 15' from the distribution panels for the most part with a few spread out further for different effects.
It would not be practical to run 56 pairs of wires from the shell/firework to the slaves because of the rat's nest we would have in doing that.
I would like each slave to have two db25's on them to run out to 25 pyro's per cable and then have the extra 6 channels as spares to run out· across a single cat5 cable to a small 6 position distribution panel.
I would also like a couple of slaves with 8 groups of 7 that I can run out to individual clusters.·
All of the relay slave boards can be built the same, it's the interface from the board to the distribution boards I need to work out.
I've found db25 connectors cheap enough for the board side, I just need to find a cheap source of the cable side and that will be solved.
I would also like the option of running more than one panel off the same slave if there is enough current to spare without blowing out the relays so I can get multiple shots off the same channel.· Otherwise I want to stick with the planned 56 relays per slave.
The Distribution panels were not in an enclosure, but they will be. Mctrivia found some spring connectors pretty cheap I'm going to look at and see if I can make those work.· I need to find a cheap source of plastic enclosures of different sizes.· I was looking at black tool boxes, or a way to make my own, but not out of wood unless necessary.
I take it since you are looking at 200' cables from master to slave and 15' from the slave to the distribution panel that you and the master console will be somewhat central to the 300'x300' area the slaves will be spread over.
The 2 DB 25 connectors with cables (and a hefty separate ground) going to 2 distribution panels is a good way to go. Will you solder the wires on the distribution end? The fewer mechanical contacts the better.
That leaves 8 unused relays in the distribution panel. Are they going to be spares or do you have another use for them?
You could use a DB 15 for a smaller 14 shot distribution panel or 2 RJ45's (or DB9's) for 2 7 shot panels and use only 21 of the 25 pins on the DB25's.
For the unused relays, I was planning on having those run to mines or something else close by, not sure yet, but I will be using every available relay out there.
I did some testing with the relays tonight and the way I have it setup, when the relay is off, it shows a green LED to indicate that the ignitor is good. when the relay activates, it instantly triggers another LED to show it is turned on once the ignitor burns out, the on relay turns off (in this version) the ignitor triggers so quickly, I don't actually see the LED light up. I was only doing this with a 5' ignitor wire, not the 20' or so it would normally use.
I also tried putting a solid line in place of the ignitor and activating the relay, I could not get the relay to fuse. I let it off and did it several more times for about 3 seconds a piece and still didn't fuse. I ran another ignitor test on the same relay and it was again an instant pop.
I'm sure the amp draw will increase with the long runs out to the bigger stuff, but the relays proved they can handle more current than what the ignitors take. mctrivia, i will be sending you some ematch blanks tomorrow so I'll need your address if you want to pm me that. I would like to see what you read for a amp draw when they light, but I would put beer on it that it's lower than 20-25 amps like the commercial ones say they require.
If it is over 5 amps I would be surprised and it's such a short pulse I can't see how it would make that much of a difference, especially considering the max time is .5 seconds to be powered.
Post Edited (chaosgk) : 7/8/2009 2:19:21 PM GMT
I will be making parts order next week.
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I am puzzled as to why you want to do this though. If tou wanted say slave 3 to fire the same tube at the same time as slave 1 all you have to do is copy the slave 1 command and paste it before the "at time" statement and change the 1 to a 3.
Are you planning to formalize the order/layout by having specific types of shells in specific tubes/racks?