I think if were called the "V8" it would be easier to sell. We live
in a car culture, not an airplane culture. (I saw a Cobra sell
for a few million years ago, at the same auction a P51 in
flying condition sold for 950K).
Just convince them its a nickname, the real name is the
P8x32A, and make them read the data sheet.
Wow.· Phil Pilgrim said it well. ·Parallax has done themselves a HUGE favor by filtering out all the idiots who would say "No" to the Propeller because of it's LOGO or NAME!· Way to go Parallax.· The whole idea of the Propeller is to be revolutionary...to NOT do things the same ol' tired way.· I guess, sadly,·this must·mean precluding·catering to dipsticks who would reject the Prop outright for superficial reasons.· We have to think of it the other way, people.· The Propeller doesn't need a rehashing of it's image to be worthy of check-writers, etc.·· No, no.·· These types who judge a book by the cover DO NOT deserve to use the Propeller.
If my boss told me, "Steve, we aren't using the Propeller because of it's logo," the next words out of my mouth would be, "I quit."
1) So tell the bean-counters that it's an advertising scheme to attract young hotshot developers, not stuffy accountants nor serious-minded Engineers. For the last, just point out it's "P8X32", 8 chips on one chip driving 32 i/o pins.
2) Get Parallax to start a sanding service for a nominal fee, say $.05 per chip.
Lord Steve said...
......... Parallax has done themselves a HUGE favor by filtering out all the idiots who would say "No" to the Propeller because of it's LOGO................... The whole idea of the Propeller is to be revolutionary........... These types who judge a book by the cover DO NOT deserve to use the Propeller....................... If my boss told me, "Steve, we aren't using the Propeller because of it's logo," the next words out of my mouth would be, "I quit."
Edit: 100th post. [noparse]:D[/noparse]
Losing sales is a HUGE favor to one self??? The point is that Parallax has not filtered out "Idiots" at all, but very SMART engineers in BIG companies with bosses who are quite rightly concerned about the image issues involved in selling large quantities of their own product. And those smart engineers DESERVE to be able to sell it to their bosses easily. No engineer will ever help popularize the Propeller by taking the "I quit" attitude mentioned above. And a better name does not stop anyone from being "revolutionary" nor does a silly name help the revolution.
Lord Steve, you're talking like an renegade artist on the sidewalk outside of a Paris cafe - which is a kind of person I really admire, and I see myself as one of them actually - and while such people do produce beautiful one-off creations, seldom do they ever successfully market a product to millions of people.
And Jazzed said: "I'm convinced that Parallax is quite happy with their existing market position and financial state."
Really?? Don't be so sure. Who wouldn't want their company to make several times more money than it does, and then have more money to spend developing even more revolutionary products.
Cavium has been shipping the "Octeon" 16 core MIP64 chip since 2004 (about the same time as Prop) with excellent innovations and full industrial strength development tools/support and ships in major networking player's devices. Of course they had to give up much to the Vulture Capitalists to make that happen. They have been public for over a year now and have won many accolades for excellence and innovation. The vision is quite different and so is the financial result for everyone closely involved.
Parallax is private and most likely self funding given their niche and penetration. They have many imitator competitors which recognize the appeal of the business. They could have also followed the VC path and given up the private piggy-bank. Not persuing this is what leads me to their "being satisfied" conclusion. If that is not the case, then I'm sorry that they missed the best opportunity recently available.
Meanwhile, people who enjoy being Parallax "partners" should be thankful for the way things have turned out, otherwise the opportunities they have will have disappeared under the weight of corporate requirements.
Given the beanie-prop, it seems to be a clear statement of Propeller Chip positioning.
I won't weight in on the meat of the discussion until there has been more talk about this in the company.
But I will share a concern: I fear that the logo is simply a scapegoat for narrow minded suits. It is a "no thinking necessary" way of putting down and rejecting a product they are uncomfortable with. I am concerned that if we changed the name and/or logo that they would only spend just enough energy to find some other excuse for not being kosher with it. And lets face it, there's alot about this chip that someone who wanted to could·find fault with: there are no interrupts, there is no step debugger, and there's no code protection; just to name a few.
So my major concern is if we do spend all the money necessary to change the name and/or logo, that the same people who rejected it for such a trivial reason would simply find a new reason to not use it.
Whoa! Hippy - where did that come from? Most unlike you - but it made me ROFL.
Trust a Brit' to get to the nuckle - way to go
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
True. Some companies see a public stock offering as the way to grow - on what amounts to money borrowed from stockholders - but I don't think that is the only option besides the current Parallax "hobby shop" image. I think Parallax has the opportunity to eventually become just as big as the publicly traded companies, and still stay private, and not have to give up anything to the "board of directors" that stockholders would expect to appoint. Parallax obviously has some superior innovation going on, and by making the best possible decisions where sales is concerned, huge growth could be realized on their own money. No stock market IPO required. Yes, it takes longer to grow this way, but you avoid the Vulture Capitalists who's decisions would eventually nose dive the company into the ground by putting innovation on hold, while they concentrate on trying to profit by manipulating the stock price. I hope Parallax never goes public. It would probably mark the beginning of the end of a good revolution.
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
So my major concern is if we do spend all the money necessary to change the name and/or logo, that the same people who rejected it for such a trivial reason would simply find a new reason to not use it.
I don't think so. When you start explaining to the CEO that having no interrupts is a GOOD thing with this chip, (and all the other things that make it different) you're probably talking over his head, and so he's not really questioning the engineers judgment about the technical issues anyway. The point here is that CEO's don't usually have any other reason for not using the Prop. It's only their fear of it being perceived as a toy. With a better name, the props differences would sound to the bosses like a wonderful innovation.
Paul Baker said...
I fear that the logo is simply a scapegoat for narrow minded suits. It is a "no thinking necessary" way of putting down and rejecting a product they are uncomfortable with. ...
Yup! And if people like that ever do become customers, they'll end up sucking the life out of you with other "issues". It's best just to let them go.
It is now 3:26am where I am so this reply might be a less coherent than usual, now it is not my intention to get you to bite but let me list the following:
1. All the comments raised here about the logo and or name are by people already using the part.
2. There has not been any posting that I can see by a potential new customer (could be wrong).
3. All the posters are your customers!!.
4. Most of the posters appear to have issues promoting your product and have brought to your (company) attention their concerns.
5. By implication the posters are [noparse][[/noparse]Removed as per violation of Forum Guidelines]
6. And lastly "no code protection" is a serious concern to any company investing $$$ in product development and I do not see that as "closed minded" at all.
Just some thoughts
Cheers.
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 8:34:53 PM GMT
I'm no IC manufacturer, nor do I have the experience by anymeans, but would it be that difficult to add a small 1/4" propeller logo sticker to the chips instead of the stamp on them? This way, both "wankers" and non-wankers alike can have their cake and eat it too.
Apologies if my "wanker" comment has offended any engineers here and I can understand the frustration those trying to sell the Propeller idea to others have seeing it laughed down, but it wasn't those people I was getting at - it's those who laugh it down over something extremely petty. I wonder if they'd turn down a legal tender $100K bill if it had a Mickey Mouse printed on the back ? "Toy money". More fool them.
If someone came into my office and said they wouldn't consider the Propeller because they didn't like the logo they'd be working somewhere else. If I were laughed down for suggesting a Propeller because of the logo I'd be working somewhere else. Simple as that. Other people can work for 'going nowhere fast' companies.
I always remember an Alexi Sayle joke; if Brits had invented the Sony Walkman it would have been made of polished mahogany and the size of a tea chest. Probably true, and lack of vision and an inability to seize the future is why some companies are world-class innovators while others stubbornly remain plodding engineering concerns.
Phil Pilgrim said...
Yup! And if people like that ever do become customers, they'll end up sucking the life out of you with other "issues". It's best just to let them go.
Well said, Phil.
Paul Baker said...
I fear that the logo is simply a scapegoat for narrow minded suits. It is a "no thinking necessary" way of putting down and rejecting a product they are uncomfortable with
Praxis, you are misinterpreting what I said. While I will never call someone a wanker, flake or idoit; rejecting a product because of it's name or logo _is_ narrow minded no matter how you try to slice it. I was not refering to anyone posting here as being a narrow minded suit, the fact that they are here proves they aren't. I was referring to the bosses the forum members are having to contend with. Nor was I intending to say requiring the need for code protection is closed minded. I was simply trying to state that someone who wants to find fault with the Propeller will find it, irregardless of what it's name or logo is.
PS. I see the sentance you were refering to with closed mind and code protection, that was not my intended meaning, so I have changed the wording. Thanks for pointing that out.
hippy said...
Apologies if my "wanker" comment has offended any engineers here and I can understand the frustration those trying to sell the Propeller idea to others have seeing it laughed down, but it wasn't those people I was getting at - it's those who laugh it down over something extremely petty. I wonder if they'd turn down a legal tender $100K bill if it had a Mickey Mouse printed on the back ? "Toy money". More fool them.
If someone came into my office and said they wouldn't consider the Propeller because they didn't like the logo they'd be working somewhere else. If I were laughed down for suggesting a Propeller because of the logo I'd be working somewhere else. Simple as that. Other people can work for 'going nowhere fast' companies.
I always remember an Alexi Sayle joke; if Brits had invented the Sony Walkman it would have been made of polished mahogany and the size of a tea chest. Probably true, and lack of vision and an inability to seize the future is why some companies are world-class innovators while others stubbornly remain plodding engineering concerns.
Considering this is one of the most absurd and wasteful threads I can remember on a Parallax forum, I feel your comments were not only appropriate, but quite civilized relative to what I had on my mind. As far as I am concerned (for what that's worth), no apology necessary!
The great George Carlin, God rest his tired soul, had an even more appropriate comment in his repertoire, but we'll hold that thought also!
1. "Kaid" - as in Hexakaidecagon - the name of a 16 sided polygon (Yes, I know it's also called a hexadecagon!)?
2. "PII"
3. "Parion" - I have no idea where that came from!
4. "PMCD" - Parallax Multi-Core Device
5. "ProCore"
6. "Cogent" - well it's got 'cog' in it!
I give-up - my brain hurts!
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
We've enjoyed reading this thread today and it has·renewed some hallway·discussion in the office. I wish·you could have been at Parallax when we arrived at the name two years ago·after an internal contest. The same discussions you·are having today·occurred at Parallax in the past. There's not much new with today's talk about the name, though, and we still like Propeller.·Our contest produced lots of other alphanumeric·names and product lines, but none of them stuck like the Propeller. Look at all of the·great supporting products we can make with the aeronautical naming theme!
We know we've got some serious hobby and education roots and we're also reaching for·a volume customer base with the Propeller.·No secrets there. Although there's still an assortment of robots on or near the home page, you'll notice that our web site, advertisements and catalog sport a more professional theme since Propeller was introduced. It's really difficult to appeal equally to hobbyists, educators and commercial users. Most companies work within a single segment. For us, the diversity among customer types with an all-technical product line is·very rewarding. Our team uses our products and we share your creations in staff e-mails.
We've served·volume buyers·before in the early 90s very well with our PIC Programmers, and our PIC Emulator "Mathias" ("the Family is One" - another name issue)·and·with our resale of PIC chips. Today we're selling·many SX chips and the first Propeller designs are entering production.·Many customers rejected the BASIC Stamp in education because "BASIC isn't an embedded language for school, but C is, so can I program it in C?" so we've got experience with this notion, too. We'll achieve volume sales with the Propeller name but maybe it won't happen as quickly if we had venture cash infusion to put sales FAEs on the ground and renamed the chip with an acronym.
If profit were the key motivation we'd probably obtain some funding, rename the Propeller, and use a traditional sales channel with distributors and reps to move lots of chips. There's no fun in that. It wouldn't be good for the Parallax team, nor would our customers be happy with such a transformation.·One of·our objectives is to have a secure business with steady growth, and to provide the best environment for our staff. We'll grow Propeller slowly, and you'll count on it always being available and never having your Purchasing Agent asking for a "cross" or "alternate" because we EOL'd the part while you were in the middle of a design. You can count on us for future supply.
The Propeller name is part of Parallax and I don't see how it could change. For those who face adversity with managers and bean-counters, we'll send one of our staff to your site to do the PowerPoint slide show and demonstration, and to talk about our "foundry partners" and all that other impressive stuff. Just give me the command.·They'll forget·about the name after we leave.
Carry on with the talk!
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 8:56:22 PM GMT
If profit were the key motivation we'd probably obtain some funding, rename the Propeller, and use a traditional sales channel with distributors and reps to move lots of chips. There's no fun in that. It wouldn't be good for the Parallax team, nor would our customers be happy with such a transformation. One of our objectives is to have a secure business with steady growth, and to provide the best environment for our staff. We'll grow Propeller slowly, and you'll count on it always being available and never having your Purchasing Agent asking for a "cross" or "alternate" because we EOL'd the part while you were in the middle of a design. You can count on us for future supply.
Not that I expected anything less but, what a breath of fresh air that statement is. I applaud and admire Parallax. Good-on-ya
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-) BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Comments
in a car culture, not an airplane culture. (I saw a Cobra sell
for a few million years ago, at the same auction a P51 in
flying condition sold for 950K).
Just convince them its a nickname, the real name is the
P8x32A, and make them read the data sheet.
Scott
If my boss told me, "Steve, we aren't using the Propeller because of it's logo," the next words out of my mouth would be, "I quit."
I am·STUNNED that this is an issue.
Edit:·· 100th post.· [noparse]:D[/noparse]
2) Get Parallax to start a sanding service for a nominal fee, say $.05 per chip.
Yeah until the realization of missing a large order sinks in.
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Somehow I seriously doubt that i.e. more propellers sold more revenue for development etc etc, more new chip designs and so on.
Business is a numbers game.
Cheers
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Losing sales is a HUGE favor to one self??? The point is that Parallax has not filtered out "Idiots" at all, but very SMART engineers in BIG companies with bosses who are quite rightly concerned about the image issues involved in selling large quantities of their own product. And those smart engineers DESERVE to be able to sell it to their bosses easily. No engineer will ever help popularize the Propeller by taking the "I quit" attitude mentioned above. And a better name does not stop anyone from being "revolutionary" nor does a silly name help the revolution.
Lord Steve, you're talking like an renegade artist on the sidewalk outside of a Paris cafe - which is a kind of person I really admire, and I see myself as one of them actually - and while such people do produce beautiful one-off creations, seldom do they ever successfully market a product to millions of people.
And Jazzed said: "I'm convinced that Parallax is quite happy with their existing market position and financial state."
Really?? Don't be so sure. Who wouldn't want their company to make several times more money than it does, and then have more money to spend developing even more revolutionary products.
Cavium has been shipping the "Octeon" 16 core MIP64 chip since 2004 (about the same time as Prop) with excellent innovations and full industrial strength development tools/support and ships in major networking player's devices. Of course they had to give up much to the Vulture Capitalists to make that happen. They have been public for over a year now and have won many accolades for excellence and innovation. The vision is quite different and so is the financial result for everyone closely involved.
Parallax is private and most likely self funding given their niche and penetration. They have many imitator competitors which recognize the appeal of the business. They could have also followed the VC path and given up the private piggy-bank. Not persuing this is what leads me to their "being satisfied" conclusion. If that is not the case, then I'm sorry that they missed the best opportunity recently available.
Meanwhile, people who enjoy being Parallax "partners" should be thankful for the way things have turned out, otherwise the opportunities they have will have disappeared under the weight of corporate requirements.
Given the beanie-prop, it seems to be a clear statement of Propeller Chip positioning.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
But I will share a concern: I fear that the logo is simply a scapegoat for narrow minded suits. It is a "no thinking necessary" way of putting down and rejecting a product they are uncomfortable with. I am concerned that if we changed the name and/or logo that they would only spend just enough energy to find some other excuse for not being kosher with it. And lets face it, there's alot about this chip that someone who wanted to could·find fault with: there are no interrupts, there is no step debugger, and there's no code protection; just to name a few.
So my major concern is if we do spend all the money necessary to change the name and/or logo, that the same people who rejected it for such a trivial reason would simply find a new reason to not use it.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 7:59:03 PM GMT
Trust a Brit' to get to the nuckle - way to go
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
There seems to be a perfect opportunity for cosmetic or brand repositioning with PropII chip development.
Good luck.
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I don't think so. When you start explaining to the CEO that having no interrupts is a GOOD thing with this chip, (and all the other things that make it different) you're probably talking over his head, and so he's not really questioning the engineers judgment about the technical issues anyway. The point here is that CEO's don't usually have any other reason for not using the Prop. It's only their fear of it being perceived as a toy. With a better name, the props differences would sound to the bosses like a wonderful innovation.
-Phil
It is now 3:26am where I am so this reply might be a less coherent than usual, now it is not my intention to get you to bite but let me list the following:
1. All the comments raised here about the logo and or name are by people already using the part.
2. There has not been any posting that I can see by a potential new customer (could be wrong).
3. All the posters are your customers!!.
4. Most of the posters appear to have issues promoting your product and have brought to your (company) attention their concerns.
5. By implication the posters are [noparse][[/noparse]Removed as per violation of Forum Guidelines]
6. And lastly "no code protection" is a serious concern to any company investing $$$ in product development and I do not see that as "closed minded" at all.
Just some thoughts
Cheers.
Post Edited By Moderator (Chris Savage (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 8:34:53 PM GMT
If someone came into my office and said they wouldn't consider the Propeller because they didn't like the logo they'd be working somewhere else. If I were laughed down for suggesting a Propeller because of the logo I'd be working somewhere else. Simple as that. Other people can work for 'going nowhere fast' companies.
I always remember an Alexi Sayle joke; if Brits had invented the Sony Walkman it would have been made of polished mahogany and the size of a tea chest. Probably true, and lack of vision and an inability to seize the future is why some companies are world-class innovators while others stubbornly remain plodding engineering concerns.
So, true.
PS. I see the sentance you were refering to with closed mind and code protection, that was not my intended meaning, so I have changed the wording. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 8:02:03 PM GMT
Cheers
Considering this is one of the most absurd and wasteful threads I can remember on a Parallax forum, I feel your comments were not only appropriate, but quite civilized relative to what I had on my mind. As far as I am concerned (for what that's worth), no apology necessary!
The great George Carlin, God rest his tired soul, had an even more appropriate comment in his repertoire, but we'll hold that thought also!
How about:
1. "Kaid" - as in Hexakaidecagon - the name of a 16 sided polygon (Yes, I know it's also called a hexadecagon!)?
2. "PII"
3. "Parion" - I have no idea where that came from!
4. "PMCD" - Parallax Multi-Core Device
5. "ProCore"
6. "Cogent" - well it's got 'cog' in it!
I give-up - my brain hurts!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
simonl, your point 5 but PropCore instead.
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We've enjoyed reading this thread today and it has·renewed some hallway·discussion in the office. I wish·you could have been at Parallax when we arrived at the name two years ago·after an internal contest. The same discussions you·are having today·occurred at Parallax in the past. There's not much new with today's talk about the name, though, and we still like Propeller.·Our contest produced lots of other alphanumeric·names and product lines, but none of them stuck like the Propeller. Look at all of the·great supporting products we can make with the aeronautical naming theme!
We know we've got some serious hobby and education roots and we're also reaching for·a volume customer base with the Propeller.·No secrets there. Although there's still an assortment of robots on or near the home page, you'll notice that our web site, advertisements and catalog sport a more professional theme since Propeller was introduced. It's really difficult to appeal equally to hobbyists, educators and commercial users. Most companies work within a single segment. For us, the diversity among customer types with an all-technical product line is·very rewarding. Our team uses our products and we share your creations in staff e-mails.
We've served·volume buyers·before in the early 90s very well with our PIC Programmers, and our PIC Emulator "Mathias" ("the Family is One" - another name issue)·and·with our resale of PIC chips. Today we're selling·many SX chips and the first Propeller designs are entering production.·Many customers rejected the BASIC Stamp in education because "BASIC isn't an embedded language for school, but C is, so can I program it in C?" so we've got experience with this notion, too. We'll achieve volume sales with the Propeller name but maybe it won't happen as quickly if we had venture cash infusion to put sales FAEs on the ground and renamed the chip with an acronym.
If profit were the key motivation we'd probably obtain some funding, rename the Propeller, and use a traditional sales channel with distributors and reps to move lots of chips. There's no fun in that. It wouldn't be good for the Parallax team, nor would our customers be happy with such a transformation.·One of·our objectives is to have a secure business with steady growth, and to provide the best environment for our staff. We'll grow Propeller slowly, and you'll count on it always being available and never having your Purchasing Agent asking for a "cross" or "alternate" because we EOL'd the part while you were in the middle of a design. You can count on us for future supply.
The Propeller name is part of Parallax and I don't see how it could change. For those who face adversity with managers and bean-counters, we'll send one of our staff to your site to do the PowerPoint slide show and demonstration, and to talk about our "foundry partners" and all that other impressive stuff. Just give me the command.·They'll forget·about the name after we leave.
Carry on with the talk!
Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 6/24/2008 8:56:22 PM GMT
I note this because it did not stop you from adding to it, so no better no worse than the rest of us.
We all got an opinion............
BTW which of the "seven dirty words" did you have in mind.......no wait let me guess[noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cheers
Post Edited (Praxis) : 6/24/2008 8:48:02 PM GMT
Not that I expected anything less but, what a breath of fresh air that statement is. I applaud and admire Parallax. Good-on-ya
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Cheers,
Simon
www.norfolkhelicopterclub.co.uk
You'll always have as many take-offs as landings, the trick is to be sure you can take-off again ;-)
BTW: I type as I'm thinking, so please don't take any offense at my writing style
Post Edited (simonl) : 6/24/2008 8:45:06 PM GMT