This I write is to show the problems that a person who is not fluent in English
I am a novice
I do not fully understand the English language
I have read the manual in Spanish
But this book is bad
Very bad
I read the manual English
This is good
I read slow
Spin Programo as if it were "C"
I made the SPIN CODE EXAMPLES FOR THE BEGINNER
Spanish forum is dead, no activity
Before you ask, I look, but many times I do not write correct.
The search result is bad
is my fault.
9,1,2008. I started English classes
The teacher is a very beautiful woman..... Is this bad or good? ;-)
Paul
Thank you for starting this topic; I agree with all you say and it NEEDED to be said. Despite reading only a small fraction of the posts and only starting a few topics myself, I was beginning to get dis-illusioned with some of the attitudes.
I am very new to the propeller but consider myself reasonably experienced with electronics, software and other micros. However, these areas only form a small part of my work and I therefore do not condsider myself an expert. I am however old enough and wise enough to know how to read, to research (and experiment) and, like most people, I do not post questions without trying to solve the problem first - despite how stupid the question may appear.
Lack of understanding is not necessarily as a result of lack of intelligence or of laziness. Sometimes a simple answer to a 'dumb' question plants a seed,·intelligence takes over and suddenly: enlightenment! ·
I am not easily offended or put off, but some replies can make one feel that one is being ticked off for not doing enough reading or not understanding enough. Furthermore, when a topic is highjacked by a couple of people having a personal argument it is unhelpful to everyone; if it gets personal, do it by PM.
On a positive note, I find most people answer questions with short, succinct, and helpful replies and, I am always amazed how quickly more than one answers is posted.
A Happy New Year to all and keep up the good work!
Paul bring up the exact point.
They tried to find the information, but used the forum search instead of search.parallax.com
They tried to find the information, but being so new didn't know the correct term to search
They have the information at hand but lack the background to either realize they have the answer, or understand the answer
They are overwhelmed by the amount of information availible and lack the ability to parse it in a way that makes sense for them
All of the above apply to me. I have read a thousand posts in the last month. It is impossible to remember them all. How can I search for info on something I have when I have no idea what I am looking for is called?
If you have to flame someone or get tired of answering it's real simple "DON"T ANSWER" Having RTFM numerous times, I think the chinese version is just as helpful.
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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
Technologically challenged individual, Please have pity.
To help with these sorts of problems would it be a good idea to get new users to write a short post describing what previous programming/electrical/other micro experience that they have. They could also say what things they have manuals they have read. Also if they have problems with english. There are a fair few users that can speak other languages that could help people with other languages if they knew.
This would help the more experienced users to frame replies. If someone is an expert with other micros than the answer will obviously be very different than if they have no experience at all.
@Steven: Most of the things you address become very soon obvious, and too specific or too unspecific answeres will be modified and extended.
So communication works well in 99% of all cases.
After we announced some of those rules, a typical introduction is nowadays:
"I am a newbie, I have read all manuals, but I still have a question...", which is somewhat redundant
Indeed the situation for "newbies" has improved considerably since the wiki has been installed, though I have also got the impression it is not as much known and used as it deserves...
Reading (and writing) here now for half a year my impression is that we see more expressed newbies here than last year (which should not be unexpected)... As the "knowledge base" of the forum has much improved, there are really few situation where a relevant answer takes time. As Mike is no longer available 5 minutes after the question, others step in, missing Mike's great experience, so this sometimes leads to some loop ways But this is as in all forums I know of...
deSilva said...
we see more expressed newbies here than last year
Would agree with that. I've been watching this forum for over a year now (6 months before I got my prop and then 6 months before I got time to do anything with it ). It seems that back then most of the forum members were already experienced programmers with a reasonable understanding of assembly in other micros. I can see your point about the redundancy of the suggestions I made as well.
Today I thought about posting a cynical comment in response to what I thought was a stupid question. Almost anywhere else, I would have posted it. But because this forum is generally so well-behaved, I thought better of doing so, and deleted it unsent.
I'm one of the many newbies here who has benefitted greatly from this forum, and I want to thank the people who ask good questions and those who answer them.
My comment would have been really funny, though.
I think that we should all thank the people like deSilva, Phil, Paul, Mike, hippy and the others who provide answers to so many questions within such a small amount of time. I know there are several times when I would have been totally lost without them.
dfletch said...
...·this completely contrary to how I've perceived these forums.
·LOL. This is just how I felt the first time this issue·was brought up. My experience is: Ask for a hint and get a complete driver.
Post a fun project and get good advice how to take it one step further.
It's amazing, how helpful people are here.
But some people are easily offended and should therefore be treated with extra-caution.
I think this is what this thread is about.
But I think someone who provides a very·high percentage of the valuable information here should be given some "literary freedom" if it keeps him going. (This is NOT what this thread is about but just my humble opinion... "Quod licet iovi non licet bovi" if I remember correctly)
I remember my best teachers were all a little bit sarcastic...
dfletch said...
, this completely contrary to how I've perceived these forums.
No, no, no. This had just been a tempest in a teapot caused by an offended Spanish Grande ..
But it was quite enlightening, though on the matter-of-fact level not so much has changed (except for the Wiki)
We still cannot provide anything else for a newbie but
- the Parallax Manual (with a good Chapter 3, an exceptable Chapter 2, and the rest rather lousy)
- The Educational Material, which contains treasures, but packaged not so attractively
- The excellent AN001 for counters
- deSilva's entertaining "Tutorial"
- Potatohead's "Assembly Code for Beginners" (incomplete)
- OldBitCollector's ProtoBoard oriented "What to do with the Propeller in the first place"
- The Wiki, much enhanced after that time
- Some tricks, tips, and traps stickies, difficult to read and nearly unchanged since then, and unedited
(Yes I know, the correct titles are somewhat different)
Well, looking at that it is not really bad.... Could it be that - on the contrary! - it is even "frightening" for the beginner??
I think a large part of the problem is people with no experience at all. Also, different people can grasp different concepts quickly and others slowly. For example, I am reasonably good at maths. This can be a bit of a problem when I am helping someone else because something that is obvious to me they just can't get. This is not to say that they are not smart, just that not all people are smart in the same areas. For me the area where I am not good is writing essays and things like that. I will sit for ages trying to write something that will take others no time at all. However, it is usually these people that have more problems with maths...
So,
1. Some people will have problems programming no matter how good their teacher is
2. Unless you have a good teacher, a very good book or are extremely talented in the area of programming you will have trouble learning to program
3. Most of the material for the propeller is currently aimed at people with at least some level of programming experience
So, it is very hard for newbies that do not have a teacher to learn anything. Not that they shouldn't try. Maybe we need more groups like OlbBitCollector started
Oldbitcollector said...
Now that's insight... I'm horrible at math... [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Please don't take it the wrong way. Its just something that I have noticed in my short life so far. I couldn't do what you have done with your Propeller Cookbook so people with all different skill sets are required.
I stopped development on my prototype because I caught what I felt (perceived) grief when I was having issues with sourcing the USB chip for building my own prototype and knew that implimenting it was going to bring me all kinds of grief. While I won't scrap the project, I moved onto another aspect without the propeller.
I think a sub forum geared directly at newbs and first timers should be a must consider for parallax. Then all the propeller gods won't have to come down from the heavens to help the little people and scolding them for asking the same thing for the n'th time. While I know the context of my last statement is what parallax is trying to avoid, it is blantantly true. With a C background, trying to figure out how SPIN works is really cumbersome since it diverges from how typical programs are written, it prompts all kinds of questions about the constructs and coding thoughts, which are basically simple for those who have been doing it for 6 months or more.
Paul, you've basically stated exactly why someone like myself has felt over the last few months......maybe its time to break out my parts and get busy again now that my thin skin won't be slashed open for silly questions......
Heaven knows, I've been responsible for my share of flippancy from time to time. (I'm still smarting from the spanking I got when I dared to comment — constructively, of course! — on someone's grammar and spelling in the Hydra forum. I think that was the first time I ever posted there; I know it was my last.) One often reaches a point where answering the same questiion time and again begs a certain amount of creativity and forbearance; and, when forbearance is in short supply, it's all too easy for creativity to cross to the dark side of sarcasm. Unfortunately, most newcomers are unaware of this context and feel stung by any perceived slight. So, it's important to keep in mind that any contact in the forum may be the other person's first contact.
As the Propeller waxes more popular, it's increasingly becoming the first exposure to microncontrollers and programming for some. But it's not as gentle an entry ramp as the BASIC Stamp, and that often manifests itself in the sometimes impatient dialogs that take place between veteran and novice. (I hate the term "newbie", by the way, and wish it an early and painful demise. It's execrable and conjures up images of a helpless infant — an insult to anyone endeavoring to understand this stuff.) But Parallax is known for providing entry-level materials for all its products. So the situation can do nothing but improve. The commitment is there; it just takes time. (Who knows, deSilva, I may even get around to updating the "Tricks & Traps" PDF! )
I've decided it would be cool if #propeller were also a place for newbies to ask questions in a less formal, non-logged sort of way. Therefore, welcome newbies, oldies, and anyone with questions and answers!
@Phil:
Your PDF is as good as my Tutorial (cum grano salis, of course), but the context both are hidden in is not optimal, as with the rest of the texts I quoted above....
That discussion months ago has not lead to much improvement: I think we had extracted seven forum areas (or if we hadn't we should have), not banning any of them:
(1) Electronic Basis: This is absolutely needed for "doing microcontrollers" - and it has as much to do with the Propeller as traffic rules have to do with your Porsche... But why ask "electronic questions" in this forum? The good news is, that we have you here to answer them
(3) Programming Techniques: There is some (but - alas - too much!) SPIN specific... But when it's programming skills you are missing - and I do contradict Kittmaster! - then why ask for them in this Forum? Well in fact very little of that has been discussed explicitely in threads.... Exceptions are "optimizations" and "brain twisters"....
(4) Open request for doing my work. This is rare - and might even be a good thing in the extreme of offering a "job". We have examples of "tutoring" here. I think that is a good thing... Tutoring is a very efficient way of education. If not for the student then for the tutor!
(5) Special questions wrt the Propeller, not answered by the non-existing FAQ...
(6) General discussion of more or less realistic projects
(7) General discussion of add-ons, improvements, and the Propeller II
Kittmaster: I am sure there are many more people who share you views. I love the prop chip but am getting to the point where switching to another chip may become desirable.
· I just don't get it when people complain about answering the questions over and over. Simple, don't answer. I asked a question which nobody has answered·even yet and ·got seriously spanked for it. Some of my favs....
·1. The sloppiness of my code
·2. "I am getting so sick of this thread"
·3. My favorite, "There are many sources to answer your question but I'm not going to tell you where they are". Posts with no links.
·4. I can't follow your code. Guess your not as good as you thought eh? Why post something like this? It makes no sense. I have erased quite a few posts because I didn't want to go through this again.
5. Posting code that has nothing to do with the original question.
6. Hijacking a thread.
·I know the guys at parallax are busy, but this is really getting ridulous. If you have nothing nice to say, Say nothing.
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······· "What do you mean, it doesn't have any tubes?" ······· "No such thing as a dumb question" unless it's on the internet
Post Edited (mosquito56) : 2/23/2008 6:30:22 AM GMT
Actually I think that one of the main reasons to choose the parallax propeller is because of these forums. I've seen many clever ideas posted on here, and the members seem to be very enthusiastic and helpful. I can think of reasons why you wouldn't want to use the propeller, but they aren't related to the forum. You can also take a lot of ideas here and apply them to other processors, FPGA designs etcetera if you decide that the propeller isn't appropriate for your application.
If you want to see some crazy threads check out the the computer chess club at talkchess.com (Machines like Belle, Deep Thought, Deep Blue once held a certain fascination for me. But the culture tends to be a bit paranoid.)
mosquito56 are you saying that my posts should be erased? I'm actually having a hard time understanding that part of your complaint. If it was about the explitive thing, that really is the name of some old-school IRC software! Wikipedia it!
If so, I answered potatohead's question directly. I'm trying to get some people into the chatroom, precisely because I want to create an environment where newbie questions are not only tolerated but completely expected!
We can have our bot (already in there) answer the absolute most common questions with brief answers and links.
OldBitCollector and PotatoHead are already with me! Come join us!
Edit:
There was a request...
Here is the "manual": chatzilla.hacksrus.com/faq/
And: ChatZilla is also available in Catalan, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish localizations!
Comments
I am a novice
I do not fully understand the English language
I have read the manual in Spanish
But this book is bad
Very bad
I read the manual English
This is good
I read slow
Spin Programo as if it were "C"
I made the SPIN CODE EXAMPLES FOR THE BEGINNER
Spanish forum is dead, no activity
Before you ask, I look, but many times I do not write correct.
The search result is bad
is my fault.
9,1,2008. I started English classes
The teacher is a very beautiful woman..... Is this bad or good? ;-)
Thank you all!
And happy 2008
Thank you for starting this topic; I agree with all you say and it NEEDED to be said. Despite reading only a small fraction of the posts and only starting a few topics myself, I was beginning to get dis-illusioned with some of the attitudes.
I am very new to the propeller but consider myself reasonably experienced with electronics, software and other micros. However, these areas only form a small part of my work and I therefore do not condsider myself an expert. I am however old enough and wise enough to know how to read, to research (and experiment) and, like most people, I do not post questions without trying to solve the problem first - despite how stupid the question may appear.
Lack of understanding is not necessarily as a result of lack of intelligence or of laziness. Sometimes a simple answer to a 'dumb' question plants a seed,·intelligence takes over and suddenly: enlightenment!
·
I am not easily offended or put off, but some replies can make one feel that one is being ticked off for not doing enough reading or not understanding enough. Furthermore, when a topic is highjacked by a couple of people having a personal argument it is unhelpful to everyone; if it gets personal, do it by PM.
On a positive note, I find most people answer questions with short, succinct, and helpful replies and, I am always amazed how quickly more than one answers is posted.
A Happy New Year to all and keep up the good work!
They tried to find the information, but used the forum search instead of search.parallax.com
They tried to find the information, but being so new didn't know the correct term to search
They have the information at hand but lack the background to either realize they have the answer, or understand the answer
They are overwhelmed by the amount of information availible and lack the ability to parse it in a way that makes sense for them
All of the above apply to me. I have read a thousand posts in the last month. It is impossible to remember them all. How can I search for info on something I have when I have no idea what I am looking for is called?
If you have to flame someone or get tired of answering it's real simple "DON"T ANSWER" Having RTFM numerous times, I think the chinese version is just as helpful.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
Technologically challenged individual, Please have pity.
This would help the more experienced users to frame replies. If someone is an expert with other micros than the answer will obviously be very different than if they have no experience at all.
So communication works well in 99% of all cases.
After we announced some of those rules, a typical introduction is nowadays:
"I am a newbie, I have read all manuals, but I still have a question...", which is somewhat redundant
Indeed the situation for "newbies" has improved considerably since the wiki has been installed, though I have also got the impression it is not as much known and used as it deserves...
Reading (and writing) here now for half a year my impression is that we see more expressed newbies here than last year (which should not be unexpected)... As the "knowledge base" of the forum has much improved, there are really few situation where a relevant answer takes time. As Mike is no longer available 5 minutes after the question, others step in, missing Mike's great experience, so this sometimes leads to some loop ways
I guess you were all just being extra nice after getting chastised
Just kidding. My experiences here so far have been completely amazing. Thank you guys for everything! I now read these forums more than Slashdot!
Seriously, I like it here so much I've been tempted to start a #propeller on freenode for open source projects and fun semi-on topic discussions
Cheers,
--fletch
irc.freenode.net #propeller
Cheers,
--fletch
I'm one of the many newbies here who has benefitted greatly from this forum, and I want to thank the people who ask good questions and those who answer them.
My comment would have been really funny, though.
Post a fun project and get good advice how to take it one step further.
It's amazing, how helpful people are here.
But some people are easily offended and should therefore be treated with extra-caution.
I think this is what this thread is about.
But I think someone who provides a very·high percentage of the valuable information here should be given some "literary freedom" if it keeps him going. (This is NOT what this thread is about but just my humble opinion... "Quod licet iovi non licet bovi" if I remember correctly)
I remember my best teachers were all a little bit sarcastic...
But it was quite enlightening, though on the matter-of-fact level not so much has changed (except for the Wiki)
We still cannot provide anything else for a newbie but
- the Parallax Manual (with a good Chapter 3, an exceptable Chapter 2, and the rest rather lousy)
- The Educational Material, which contains treasures, but packaged not so attractively
- The excellent AN001 for counters
- deSilva's entertaining "Tutorial"
- Potatohead's "Assembly Code for Beginners" (incomplete)
- OldBitCollector's ProtoBoard oriented "What to do with the Propeller in the first place"
- The Wiki, much enhanced after that time
- Some tricks, tips, and traps stickies, difficult to read and nearly unchanged since then, and unedited
(Yes I know, the correct titles are somewhat different)
Well, looking at that it is not really bad.... Could it be that - on the contrary! - it is even "frightening" for the beginner??
Post Edited (deSilva) : 2/23/2008 3:07:00 AM GMT
So,
1. Some people will have problems programming no matter how good their teacher is
2. Unless you have a good teacher, a very good book or are extremely talented in the area of programming you will have trouble learning to program
3. Most of the material for the propeller is currently aimed at people with at least some level of programming experience
So, it is very hard for newbies that do not have a teacher to learn anything. Not that they shouldn't try. Maybe we need more groups like OlbBitCollector started
@Desilva: love the re-title..
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook 1.4
Updates to the Cookbook are now posted to: Propeller.warrantyvoid.us
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
A Living Propeller FAQ - The Propeller Wiki
(Got the Knowledge? Got a Moment? Add something today!)
I think a sub forum geared directly at newbs and first timers should be a must consider for parallax. Then all the propeller gods won't have to come down from the heavens to help the little people and scolding them for asking the same thing for the n'th time. While I know the context of my last statement is what parallax is trying to avoid, it is blantantly true. With a C background, trying to figure out how SPIN works is really cumbersome since it diverges from how typical programs are written, it prompts all kinds of questions about the constructs and coding thoughts, which are basically simple for those who have been doing it for 6 months or more.
Paul, you've basically stated exactly why someone like myself has felt over the last few months......maybe its time to break out my parts and get busy again now that my thin skin won't be slashed open for silly questions......
As the Propeller waxes more popular, it's increasingly becoming the first exposure to microncontrollers and programming for some. But it's not as gentle an entry ramp as the BASIC Stamp, and that often manifests itself in the sometimes impatient dialogs that take place between veteran and novice. (I hate the term "newbie", by the way, and wish it an early and painful demise. It's execrable and conjures up images of a helpless infant — an insult to anyone endeavoring to understand this stuff.) But Parallax is known for providing entry-level materials for all its products. So the situation can do nothing but improve. The commitment is there; it just takes time. (Who knows, deSilva, I may even get around to updating the "Tricks & Traps" PDF!
-Phil
Cheers,
--fletch
Your PDF is as good as my Tutorial (cum grano salis, of course), but the context both are hidden in is not optimal, as with the rest of the texts I quoted above....
That discussion months ago has not lead to much improvement: I think we had extracted seven forum areas (or if we hadn't we should have), not banning any of them:
(1) Electronic Basis: This is absolutely needed for "doing microcontrollers" - and it has as much to do with the Propeller as traffic rules have to do with your Porsche... But why ask "electronic questions" in this forum? The good news is, that we have you here to answer them
(2) Specific hardware questions, concerning motors, FETs, ADCs, noise, modulation, infra-red, you-name-it
(3) Programming Techniques: There is some (but - alas - too much!) SPIN specific... But when it's programming skills you are missing - and I do contradict Kittmaster! - then why ask for them in this Forum? Well in fact very little of that has been discussed explicitely in threads.... Exceptions are "optimizations" and "brain twisters"....
(4) Open request for doing my work. This is rare - and might even be a good thing in the extreme of offering a "job". We have examples of "tutoring" here. I think that is a good thing... Tutoring is a very efficient way of education. If not for the student then for the tutor!
(5) Special questions wrt the Propeller, not answered by the non-existing FAQ...
(6) General discussion of more or less realistic projects
(7) General discussion of add-ons, improvements, and the Propeller II
What's the safe and easy way to IRC on a win32 machine? Last used this on SGI / Linux. Been a few years now.
#propeller gives me a reason to use it again!
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
Others seem to like mIRC.
Those are the major 2 I usually hear about.
Of course, you could probably install Cygwin and install (expletive)x if you want an old-school solution [noparse];)[/noparse]
Cheers,
--fletch
Let's see if an URL works: www.(expletive)x.com/
Gah! b-i-t-c-h-x !!
Post Edited (dfletch) : 2/23/2008 4:54:05 AM GMT
· I just don't get it when people complain about answering the questions over and over. Simple, don't answer. I asked a question which nobody has answered·even yet and ·got seriously spanked for it. Some of my favs....
·1. The sloppiness of my code
·2. "I am getting so sick of this thread"
·3. My favorite, "There are many sources to answer your question but I'm not going to tell you where they are". Posts with no links.
·4. I can't follow your code. Guess your not as good as you thought eh? Why post something like this? It makes no sense. I have erased quite a few posts because I didn't want to go through this again.
5. Posting code that has nothing to do with the original question.
6. Hijacking a thread.
·I know the guys at parallax are busy, but this is really getting ridulous. If you have nothing nice to say, Say nothing.
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·······
······· "What do you mean, it doesn't have any tubes?"
······· "No such thing as a dumb question" unless it's on the internet
Post Edited (mosquito56) : 2/23/2008 6:30:22 AM GMT
If you want to see some crazy threads check out the the computer chess club at talkchess.com (Machines like Belle, Deep Thought, Deep Blue once held a certain fascination for me. But the culture tends to be a bit paranoid.)
If so, I answered potatohead's question directly. I'm trying to get some people into the chatroom, precisely because I want to create an environment where newbie questions are not only tolerated but completely expected!
We can have our bot (already in there) answer the absolute most common questions with brief answers and links.
OldBitCollector and PotatoHead are already with me! Come join us!
http://forums.parallaxinc.com/addons.mozilla.org/de/firefox/addon/16
Just checked it, works fine with irc://irc.freenode.net/propeller
But don't fear I could turn up there
Edit:
There was a request...
Here is the "manual": chatzilla.hacksrus.com/faq/
And: ChatZilla is also available in Catalan, French, German, Italian, Portuguese, Russian and Spanish localizations!
Post Edited (deSilva) : 2/23/2008 12:51:02 PM GMT